Medical Forum / General / Cardiology / December 2009
Several alternatives for aspirin therapy
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Jason - 16 Nov 2009 03:13 GMT Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.
The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional bleeding.
These are some of the supplements that can keep the blood at a healthy viscosity without eroding the digestive tract:
fish oil garlic ginger bromeain full sprectrum Vit. E magnesium
Also, nattokinase niacin Lumbrokinase
The above info. was obtained from the following book:
REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.
Don Kirkman - 16 Nov 2009 07:17 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article <Jason-1511092022460001@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.
>The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional bleeding. Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.
>These are some of the supplements that can keep the blood at a healthy >viscosity without eroding the digestive tract:
>fish oil >garlic >ginger >bromeain >full sprectrum Vit. E >magnesium
>Also, >nattokinase >niacin >Lumbrokinase
>The above info. was obtained from the following book: Which of the above keep the platelets from adhering to each other and causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart patients?
>REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. >Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists. The book is about reducing plaque, not about "healthy viscosity" and not about preventing clotting. FWIW my cardiologist told me over ten years ago that there is no medication that actually reduces plaque, though some statins may cause it to consolidate and shrink somewhat. If a newer medication does reduce plaque, so much the better--but it has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac patients.
No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.
 Signature Don Kirkman donsno2@charter.net
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 16 Nov 2009 11:37 GMT > >Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily > >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a > relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment. Moreover, as discussed in another SMC thread, it remains wiser for people at very low risk for heart attacks and strokes, where risk of GI bleeding from the aspirin would be greater than benefit of primary prevention, to reduce their cardiovascular risk to zero by losing their visceral adiposity by eating the right amount (32 oz/day):
http://WDJW.net/BeSmart
May GOD give you, Don, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
verity@gefinden.com - 16 Nov 2009 18:01 GMT "prevention, to reduce their cardiovascular risk to zero by losing their visceral adiposity by eating the right amount (32 oz/day):"
Truth:
The two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. is quack science. It has flaws of both fact and logic. It was invented to fit a preexisting agenda and does not flow from evidence based on research. The diet inventor has many times been appraised of his flaws but clings to them for reasons other then science or valid medical practice
All of this nonsense of measure by weight or volume comes from the agenda fitting, not well established research. But sadly even the agenda is based on misunderstood and misapplied information. Even when corrected, the author of the agenda for nothing but pride and vain face saving can not deal with that truth.
The weight part came from a failed knowledge of a particular verse in scripture. When shown to be wrong, he promptly said he had been given a new interpretation to set the record straight. And of course this new information led where the agenda demands.
Bottom line, ignore any reference to the two pound diet,aka 2 pd etc. and stick with established information and sources of expert authorities which do not include the vanity of vanity distorting reality in this case.
There is a larger problem then misinformation obvious to anyone familiar with the inventor's posts.
May God bless and protect and heal.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 17 Nov 2009 08:31 GMT Bottom line concerning your feigned issues with the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ba8379f6c69b4310?
<><
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." (Proverbs 16:33)
Amen.
A Spirit-guided exegesis of Proverbs 16:33 ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/085dcffcafb7e4e2?
Nothing happens by chance because everything happens only as GOD allows it (Ecclesiastes 9:11):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/21527d1832960109?
Sign that GOD can easily unleash an H5N1 Pandemic, for which there is no vaccine, at any time:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/a4581567229974c0?
What we are teaching to prepare folks in our local communities for the probable eventuality of a Pan-Flu virus deadlier than the current H1N1 Pandemic virus (i.e. one for which there is no vaccine):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmkax1wbRU
How to not be fearful:
Trust the truth, Who is Jesus !!!
http://T3WiJ.com
May dear neighbors, friends, and brethren have a blessedly wonderful 2009th year since the birth of our LORD Jesus Christ as our Messiah, the Son of Man ...
... by being hungrier:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f891e617d10bd689?
Hunger is wonderful ! ! !
It's how we know the answer to the question "What does Jesus want?" (WDJW):
http://WDJW.net
Yes, hunger is our knowledge of good versus evil that Adam and Eve paid for with their and our immortal lives:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/52a3db8576495806?
Hunger is the physical "hearts burning within us" feeling that unlocks the 4 mysteries of the "Road to Emmaus" adventure described in Luke 24:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/386f56c2f6d0b154?
Moreover, being hungrier is the key to being Jesus' disciples:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/bd20d7c4fe878897?
Being physically hungrier is how we will physically recognize Jesus when He physically returns for us to meet Him physically in the air:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ffa6609710ea9587?
"Blessed are you who hunger NOW...
... for you will be satisfied." -- LORD Jesus Christ (Luke 6:21)
Amen.
Here is a Spirit-guided exegesis of Luke 6:21 given in hopes of promoting much greater understanding:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/cc2aa8f8a4d41360?
Jesus is LORD, forever !!!
http://JiL4ever.net
Be hungrier, which is truly healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
Ken - 17 Nov 2009 15:16 GMT Bottom line concening chung
Clinical Sociopathic *NARCISSISM*" Having 5 of these 9 "qualifies" a person as a narcissist... How many of these fit him to a "T"?
1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion 3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) 4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply). 5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations 6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends 7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others 8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her 9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 18 Nov 2009 09:37 GMT Bottom line concerning you, Ken:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e444a7f27fc8ae79?
Truth is reality ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/459c9c0ed3b24ca2?
... despite your efforts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3160f9fd903ab7c2?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
May GOD give you, Ken, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
Ken - 18 Nov 2009 16:58 GMT Bottom line concening chung
Clinical Sociopathic *NARCISSISM*" Having 5 of these 9 "qualifies" a person as a narcissist... How many of these fit him to a "T"?
1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion 3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) 4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply). 5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations 6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends 7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others 8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her 9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 21 Nov 2009 08:00 GMT Bottom line concerning you, Ken:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e444a7f27fc8ae79?
Truth is reality ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/459c9c0ed3b24ca2?
... despite your efforts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3160f9fd903ab7c2?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
May GOD give you, Ken, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
David - 27 Nov 2009 22:49 GMT Geez Ken, looking at the number of posts you make regarding Chung it does seem YOU are getting rather obsessive.
Remember ...in glass houses etc... and pot calling....
Cheers
David
In article <d0b98959-8a97-4ebf-bd7f-32a817e2c801@f18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Bottom line concening chung > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > 9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when > frustrated, contradicted, or confronted Jason - 17 Nov 2009 06:16 GMT > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article > <Jason-1511092022460001@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart > patients? My best guess is Lumbrokinase, fish oil and Nattokinase. The two doctors claim that those three supplements help to keep the blood thin. Here is a direct quote from the book:
"We've already seen how one supplement--fish oil--helps keep blood thin. But many individuals...may need something even stonger. That's where nattokinase and lumbrokinase come in...." page 105
They go on to say that natto. and lumbro. are "clot busters" (pg. 107)
> >REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW > >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac > patients. Have you read the book? If so, you should know that the two cardiologists that wrote the book do discuss reducing plaque as well as healthy viscosity (see page 90).
> No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word > "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know > the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue. Aspirin is mentioned in the index and on page 90.
I suggest that you read the book before discussing information that is in a book that you have not yet read.
Don Kirkman - 17 Nov 2009 07:19 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article <Jason-1611092327210001@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> <Jason-1511092022460001@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> >Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily >> >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.
>> >The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional >bleeding.
>> Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal >> bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a >> relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.
>> Which of the above keep the platelets from adhering to each other and >> causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart >> patients?
>My best guess is Lumbrokinase, fish oil and Nattokinase. The two doctors >claim that those three supplements help to keep the blood thin. Here is a >direct quote from the book: Your best guess is meaningless. I asked a medical question.
>"We've already seen how one supplement--fish oil--helps keep blood thin. >But many individuals...may need something even stonger. That's where >nattokinase and lumbrokinase come in...." page 105
>They go on to say that natto. and lumbro. are "clot busters" (pg. 107) But aspirin is not a blood thinner nor a "clot buster." It reduces the tendency to clot by keeping platelets from sticking together.
Please don't use guesswork if you want to discuss medical issues.
>> >REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW >> >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac >> patients.
>Have you read the book? If so, you should know that the two cardiologists >that wrote the book do discuss reducing plaque as well as healthy >viscosity (see page 90). If you had read my paragraph directly above this response you would see that I wrote exactly that in the first six words of the first sentence.
>> No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word >> "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know >> the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.
>Aspirin is mentioned in the index and on page 90. "Aspirin" in the index is no evidence for anything. Saying it is mentioned on page 90 is equally useless.
>I suggest that you read the book before discussing information that is in >a book that you have not yet read. I'm not discussing information that is in the book but information you are putting forth that is not in the book--that other medications are equivalent to aspirin therapy for cardiac patients.
 Signature Don Kirkman donsno2@charter.net
Jason - 17 Nov 2009 19:30 GMT > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article > <Jason-1611092327210001@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > are putting forth that is not in the book--that other medications are > equivalent to aspirin therapy for cardiac patients. I am NOT a doctor but both of the authors of the book are cardiologists. This is an exact quote from the book related to aspirin:
"We [Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra] don't recommend aspirin therapy to healthy people for primary CVD prevention. The reason: aspirin may seem harmless, but it's one the leading causes of gastrointesinal bleeding. We prefer a variety of supplements to keep the bood at a healthy viscosity without eroding the digestive tract...."
I trust the words of Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra over your words since I know nothing about your medical training. However, I do know a great deal of info. about Dr. Roberts and Dr Sinatra's medical training.
Don Kirkman - 18 Nov 2009 07:02 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article <Jason-1711091240580001@66.53.222.127>:
>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> <Jason-1611092327210001@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> >> <Jason-1511092022460001@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> >> >Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily >> >> >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.
>> >> >The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional >> >bleeding.
>> >> Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal >> >> bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a >> >> relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.
>> >> Which of the above keep the platelets from adhering to each other and >> >> causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart >> >> patients?
>> >My best guess is Lumbrokinase, fish oil and Nattokinase. The two doctors >> >claim that those three supplements help to keep the blood thin. Here is a >> >direct quote from the book:
>> Your best guess is meaningless. I asked a medical question.
>> >"We've already seen how one supplement--fish oil--helps keep blood thin. >> >But many individuals...may need something even stonger. That's where >> >nattokinase and lumbrokinase come in...." page 105
>> >They go on to say that natto. and lumbro. are "clot busters" (pg. 107) >> But aspirin is not a blood thinner nor a "clot buster." It reduces [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. >> >> >Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.
>> >> The book is about reducing plaque, not about "healthy viscosity" and >> >> not about preventing clotting. FWIW my cardiologist told me over ten [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac >> >> patients.
>> >Have you read the book? If so, you should know that the two cardiologists >> >that wrote the book do discuss reducing plaque as well as healthy >> >viscosity (see page 90).
>> If you had read my paragraph directly above this response you would >> see that I wrote exactly that in the first six words of the first >> sentence.
>> >> No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word >> >> "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know >> >> the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.
>> >Aspirin is mentioned in the index and on page 90.
>> "Aspirin" in the index is no evidence for anything. Saying it is >> mentioned on page 90 is equally useless.
>> >I suggest that you read the book before discussing information that is in >> >a book that you have not yet read.
>> I'm not discussing information that is in the book but information you >> are putting forth that is not in the book--that other medications are >> equivalent to aspirin therapy for cardiac patients.
>I am NOT a doctor but both of the authors of the book are cardiologists. >This is an exact quote from the book related to aspirin:
>"We [Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra] don't recommend aspirin therapy to >healthy people for primary CVD prevention. The reason: aspirin may seem >harmless, but it's one the leading causes of gastrointesinal bleeding. We >prefer a variety of supplements to keep the bood at a healthy viscosity >without eroding the digestive tract...." We started with this same statement, and you've added nothing meaningful since. The fact is most cardiac patients do NOT develop gastrointestinal bleeding from aspiring therapy, and of course those who do should be taken off aspirin immediately.
>I trust the words of Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra over your words since I >know nothing about your medical training. However, I do know a great deal >of info. about Dr. Roberts and Dr Sinatra's medical training. Then you know that much of Sinatra's recent work has a "new age" tinge. Such as:
Sugar Shock!: How Sweets and Simple Carbs Can Derail Your Life-- and How You Can Get Back on Track
The Fast Food Diet
Spa Medicine: Your Gateway to the Ageless Zone
Lower Your Blood Pressure in Eight Weeks: A Revolutionary Program for a Longer, Healthier Life
Heart Sense for Women: Your Plan for Natural Prevention and Treatment
Heartbreak & Heart Disease: A Mind/Body Prescription for Healing the Heart
Optimum Health: A Natural Lifesaving Prescription for your Body and Mind
 Signature Don Kirkman donsno2@charter.net
Jason - 18 Nov 2009 22:16 GMT > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article > <Jason-1711091240580001@66.53.222.127>: [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > Optimum Health: A Natural Lifesaving Prescription for your Body and > Mind Mr. Kirkman, If you want to take aspirin therapy for the rest of your life--please feel free to do so. I hope that you do not develop ulcers in your stomach or intestines as a direct result of aspirin therapy. Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than you know or that I know. Jason
Don Kirkman - 19 Nov 2009 00:38 GMT It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article <Jason-1811091526550001@67-150-121-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> <Jason-1711091240580001@66.53.222.127>:
>> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> >> <Jason-1611092327210001@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> >> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> >> >> <Jason-1511092022460001@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>:
>> >> >> >Some cardiologists recommend that everyone over age forty take a daily >> >> >> >low-dose aspirin as part of good cadiovascular prevention.
>> >> >> >The problem is that aspirin is one of the causes of gastrointestional >> >> >bleeding.
>> >> >> Of course for the minority of patients who develop gastrointestinal >> >> >> bleeding it would be contraindicated, but it continues to be a >> >> >> relatively safe, cheap, and effective treatment.
>> >> >> Which of the above keep the platelets from adhering to each other and >> >> >> causing clots, which is the reason doctors prescribe aspirin for heart >> >> >> patients?
>> >> >My best guess is Lumbrokinase, fish oil and Nattokinase. The two doctors >> >> >claim that those three supplements help to keep the blood thin. Here is a >> >> >direct quote from the book:
>> >> Your best guess is meaningless. I asked a medical question.
>> >> >"We've already seen how one supplement--fish oil--helps keep blood thin. >> >> >But many individuals...may need something even stonger. That's where >> >> >nattokinase and lumbrokinase come in...." page 105
>> >> >They go on to say that natto. and lumbro. are "clot busters" (pg. 107)
>> >> But aspirin is not a blood thinner nor a "clot buster." It reduces >> >> the tendency to clot by keeping platelets from sticking together.
>> >> Please don't use guesswork if you want to discuss medical issues. >> >> >> >REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW >> >> >> >by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. >> >> >> >Dr. Sinatra and Dr. Roberts are both cardiologists.
>> >> >> The book is about reducing plaque, not about "healthy viscosity" and >> >> >> not about preventing clotting. FWIW my cardiologist told me over ten [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> >> has nothing to do with the function aspirin performs in cardiac >> >> >> patients.
>> >> >Have you read the book? If so, you should know that the two cardiologists >> >> >that wrote the book do discuss reducing plaque as well as healthy >> >> >viscosity (see page 90).
>> >> If you had read my paragraph directly above this response you would >> >> see that I wrote exactly that in the first six words of the first >> >> sentence.
>> >> >> No discussion of the book I found in Google even contains the word >> >> >> "aspirin." It's irresponsible to give advice if you don't even know >> >> >> the mechanisms and medications involved in the issue.
>> >> >Aspirin is mentioned in the index and on page 90.
>> >> "Aspirin" in the index is no evidence for anything. Saying it is >> >> mentioned on page 90 is equally useless.
>> >> >I suggest that you read the book before discussing information that is in >> >> >a book that you have not yet read.
>> >> I'm not discussing information that is in the book but information you >> >> are putting forth that is not in the book--that other medications are >> >> equivalent to aspirin therapy for cardiac patients.
>> >I am NOT a doctor but both of the authors of the book are cardiologists. >> >This is an exact quote from the book related to aspirin:
>> >"We [Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra] don't recommend aspirin therapy to >> >healthy people for primary CVD prevention. The reason: aspirin may seem >> >harmless, but it's one the leading causes of gastrointesinal bleeding. We >> >prefer a variety of supplements to keep the bood at a healthy viscosity >> >without eroding the digestive tract...."
>> We started with this same statement, and you've added nothing >> meaningful since. The fact is most cardiac patients do NOT develop >> gastrointestinal bleeding from aspiring therapy, and of course those >> who do should be taken off aspirin immediately.
>> >I trust the words of Dr. Roberts and Dr. Sinatra over your words since I >> >know nothing about your medical training. However, I do know a great deal >> >of info. about Dr. Roberts and Dr Sinatra's medical training.
>> Then you know that much of Sinatra's recent work has a "new age" >> tinge. Such as:
>> Sugar Shock!: How Sweets and Simple Carbs Can Derail Your Life-- and >> How You Can Get Back on Track
>> The Fast Food Diet
>> Spa Medicine: Your Gateway to the Ageless Zone
>> Lower Your Blood Pressure in Eight Weeks: A Revolutionary Program for >> a Longer, Healthier Life
>> Heart Sense for Women: Your Plan for Natural Prevention and Treatment
>> Heartbreak & Heart Disease: A Mind/Body Prescription for Healing the >> Heart
>> Optimum Health: A Natural Lifesaving Prescription for your Body and >> Mind
>Mr. Kirkman, >If you want to take aspirin therapy for the rest of your life--please feel >free to do so. I shall do so, with or without your approval. My cardiologists have all strongly recommended it, and at full strength at that.
> I hope that you do not develop ulcers in your stomach or >intestines as a direct result of aspirin therapy. Since I haven't yet over the past eleven years, I think the risk is slight.
> Dr. Roberts and Dr. >Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than >you know or that I know. And you know they are "excellent" how? The list of books Dr. Sinatra has published strongly suggests he is out of the medical mainstream. Dr. Sinatra's medical grounding appears to be somewhat inferior to Dr. Chung's and his advice as inferred from his book titles is scarcely more scientific than the Two Pound Diet [Approach].
BTW, trolls do not discuss facts and evidence; many of them do nothing to advance discussion or knowledge, seeming to exist primarily to disrupt discussion.
 Signature Don Kirkman donsno2@charter.net
Jason - 19 Nov 2009 05:26 GMT > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article > <Jason-1811091526550001@67-150-121-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > to advance discussion or knowledge, seeming to exist primarily to > disrupt discussion. What is your medical background? Do you think that you know more about the field of cardiology than Dr. Sinatra (a cardiologist)?
Robert Miles - 22 Nov 2009 15:28 GMT > It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article > <Jason-1811091526550001@67-150-121-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> >> >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >>> >> >> <Jason-1511092022460001@67-150-123-48.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [snip]
> And you know they are "excellent" how? The list of books Dr. Sinatra > has published strongly suggests he is out of the medical mainstream. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to advance discussion or knowledge, seeming to exist primarily to > disrupt discussion. So you aren't aware yet that Chung is considered a troll in the diabetes newsgroups, and there's little sign that he's had any patients after he was fired from his first medical job in less than three months?
Robert Miles
MU - 22 Nov 2009 17:53 GMT >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> <Jason-1811091526550001@67-150-121-70.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Robert Miles lol
Hey, Robbie, since I *am* one of Chung's patients, I guess that makes you out a big fat LIAR.
MoSn - 23 Nov 2009 04:36 GMT > Hey, Robbie, since I *am* one of Chung's patients, I guess that makes > you out a big fat LIAR. Doctors should not treat themselves IF the above statement is true.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 24 Nov 2009 09:31 GMT Don Kirkman wrote in part:
> Dr. Sinatra's medical grounding appears to be somewhat inferior to Dr. > Chung's and his advice as inferred from his book titles is scarcely > more scientific than the Two Pound Diet [Approach]. The 2PD-OMER Approach simply works as evident by the fact that its US $2,000,000.00 guarantee remains in force:
http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
Moreover, the underpinnings of the 2PD-OMER Approach is secured by an understanding of the first law of thermodynamics so that no true scientist is able to truthfully claim that the Approach lacks scientific validity.
Would continue to gently suggest that you, Don, stop lying post-haste before you start believing the lies and suffer a break from reality:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ebf80fd52b13b1ca?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
May GOD give you, Don, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
MU - 24 Nov 2009 21:33 GMT > Moreover, the underpinnings of the 2PD-OMER Approach is secured by an > understanding of the first law of thermodynamics so that no true > scientist is able to truthfully claim that the Approach lacks > scientific validity. Yep, /any/ weight loss regimen has to pass this test, validity, however, is based on sustainability.
Atkins, Ornish and every other commercial, book or pamphlet based dieting plan fail the validity/sustainability test with reversions as high as 98%.
MoSn - 24 Nov 2009 22:16 GMT >> Moreover, the underpinnings of the 2PD-OMER Approach is secured by an >> understanding of the first law of thermodynamics so that no true [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dieting plan fail the validity/sustainability test with reversions as > high as 98%. Duh.
"There is a much easier way to lose weight, as we can learn from the first law of thermodynamics. Eat less. "
http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm
The key to weight loss is to eat less. Most people count calories and eat less calories than they need. Exercise also helps by burning calories.
True the average person eats more than 2 pounds of food a day and so will lose weight ..... but the idea of 2 pounds of celery and 2 pounds of cheese cake will give the same result is absurd. The idea that the same amount for 6 foot 4 inch 350 pound male is the same as for a 4 foot 150 woman is also absurd.
Beware of those advocating a simple one size fits all diet
Bill who putters - 24 Nov 2009 23:05 GMT > The key to weight loss is to eat less. Most people count calories and eat > less calories than they need. Exercise also helps by burning calories. Take a look at Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad calories". P 352 dealing with Pennington. Then buy the book. High fat with restricted carbs ..................... Get your own adipose cranking.
Bill
 Signature Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 25 Nov 2009 00:04 GMT a neighbor wrote:
>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Duh. Delusion.
It's the "hunger is starvation" delusion.
>"There is a much easier way to lose weight, as we can learn from the first >law of thermodynamics. Eat less. " Much smarter to eat the right amount (32 oz/day) of food:
http://WDJW.net/BeSmart
> http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm From your cite:
"Of course, there is a catch. You'll be hungry. It's not real hunger - not like the painful hunger of starving people in impoverished countries." -- Richard A. Muller
It seems even Physicist Muller is suffering from the "real hunger is starvation and is painful" delusion. Folks dying from starvation (i.e. those that cause us to suffer when looking upon their emaciated forms) are simply not hungry because they are in starvation ketosis. Indeed, folks truly dying for any reason are simply not hungry.
The 2PD-OMER Approach does help people overcome the "hunger is starvation" delusion as evident by the fact that its US $2,000,000.00 guarantee remains in force:
http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
verity@gefinden.com - 25 Nov 2009 01:21 GMT "Much smarter to eat the right amount (32 oz/day) of food:"
Truth:
The two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. is quack science. It has flaws of both fact and logic. It was invented to fit a preexisting agenda and does not flow from evidence based on research. The diet inventor has many times been appraised of his flaws but clings to them for reasons other then science or valid medical practice
All of this nonsense of measure by weight or volume comes from the agenda fitting, not well established research. But sadly even the agenda is based on misunderstood and misapplied information. Even when corrected, the author of the agenda for nothing but pride and vain face saving can not deal with that truth.
The weight part came from a failed knowledge of a particular verse in scripture. When shown to be wrong, he promptly said he had been given a new interpretation to set the record straight. And of course this new information led where the agenda demands.
Bottom line, ignore any reference to the two pound diet,aka 2 pd etc. and stick with established information and sources of expert authorities which do not include the vanity of vanity distorting reality in this case.
There is a larger problem then misinformation obvious to anyone familiar with the inventor's posts.
May God bless and protect and heal.
MU - 25 Nov 2009 22:46 GMT > a neighbor wrote: >>> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > forms) are simply not hungry because they are in starvation ketosis. > Indeed, folks truly dying for any reason are simply not hungry. People who do not limit their consumption to 2lbs per day fear what they have been told to fear, the unpleasantness/pain of hunger. What actually happens is that any unpleasantness will, in time, resolve itself. You will still know hunger but like watching a fire from afar, you know it is hot, but you are not hot.
This fear of being without food is part and parcel of a concerted attempt through mass disinformation and marketing stemming from the various food delivery agencies. This includes the complicity of the FedGov, USDA (the ridiculous food pyramid) and others in perpetuating this dishonesty on the world populations.
Motherhood, this concept of food=love and satiation=parenting, is yet another strong factor in the obesity of America.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 26 Nov 2009 10:40 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote > > a neighbor wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > People who do not limit their consumption to 2lbs per day fear what they > have been told to fear, the unpleasantness/pain of hunger. There is fear of death.
Starvation is synonymous with death.
"What good is my birthright if I die." -- Esau thinking he was starving (Genesis 25:32)
When folks falsely believe that hunger is starvation, they falsely also believe they are dying when they are hungry.
The latter does result in fear when hungry.
Mu, note that the verse# of the above verse that identifies the fiery dart with "hunger is starvation" written on it reminds us of the right amount of food we should all be eating daily (32 oz).
Therefore, we should always be saying "wonderfully hungry" whenever greeted to keep for ever having a heart attack:
http://WDJW.net/Shield
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9ef5f0160bbd417c?
Ken - 26 Nov 2009 16:44 GMT Andrew B. Chung Board-certified Spamming Nutsack
sometimers - 25 Nov 2009 01:48 GMT > The key to weight loss is to eat less. I'm overweight because I am diabetic. I am not diabetic because I am overweight.
You have to remember also that eating is a survival strategy, not entirely a matter of choice. Now that my heart is pumping better and I have more energy I am losing weight, though I doubt I'll ever again achieve my ideal weight.
I'm not making excuses, just providing food for thought.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 25 Nov 2009 04:05 GMT > a neighbor wrote: > > > The key to weight loss is to eat less. > > I'm overweight because I am diabetic. Not according to the first law of thermodynamics as physicist Muller has explicated :
http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
sometimers - 25 Nov 2009 04:19 GMT >> a neighbor wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm I'm going to reply to you this one time only.
You're a kook.
Richard A. Muller is a kook as well. (1) He is not diabetic. (2) He has some mental issues unique to himself. (3) The human body is a complex system, not a project study under the simplistic rules governing thermodynamics analysis.
People like you spout off easy answers because you don't actually understand the problems you're attempting to address. Real world solutions are never successfully one size fits all.
Go hide in a corner somewhere and pray for the wisdom that is eluding you. Please don't come out again until that wisdom manifests. The first step is realizing that almost everything you presently tell us you believe is wrong. That's the key to your permission to engage in conversation with me in the future.
Best of luck to you.
MoSn - 25 Nov 2009 04:55 GMT > Real world solutions are never successfully one > size fits all. Yes ..... and beware of those spouting simple one-size fits all diets.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 25 Nov 2009 09:54 GMT > > Real world solutions are never successfully one > > size fits all. Incorrect.
GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful.
> Yes ..... and beware of those spouting simple one-size fits all diets. Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:
http://WDJW.net/BeSmart
It is by GOD's design that there exists one right amount of food for humans (Exodus 16:16).
It is not by chance that the chapter and verse numbers add up to 32 here (Proverbs 16:33).
It is not by chance that the "hunger is starvation" delusion is described in the middle of Genesis at verse 32.
It is by GOD, the 2PD-OMER Approach is another real world solution that has been successful:
http://WDJW.net/NJ
And, will remain successful:
http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus.
Amen.
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
Being hungrier truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
QJ - 25 Nov 2009 14:44 GMT > GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful. Which God - people believe fervently, as much as you do, in different Gods.
> Thankfully the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet: Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig's and Atkin's are all Approaches also to dieting and life style changes.
It is interesting that you have to resort to word games when you do not have the facts and data to back up what you write. Of course, that goes for most of what you post.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 25 Nov 2009 21:05 GMT a neighbor wrote:
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> http://WDJW.net/BeSmart If 2PD-OMER Approach were a diet, it would not dovetail as easily with a regular diet as it does with either Atkins or vegan diets.
>> It is by GOD's design that there exists one right amount of food for >> humans (Exodus 16:16). [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Which God The Author of all reality and Creator GOD, Whom this physician most assuredly without doubt **knows** and understands to be kind, just, and right (Jeremiah 9:24)
May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
Being hungrier truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
al - 26 Nov 2009 15:09 GMT >GOD, Whom this physician most > assuredly without doubt **knows** and understands to be kind, just, > and right Tell that to all thed children born deaf, dumb, blind, crippled, and deformed, you f.ck nuckle.
MoSn - 26 Nov 2009 15:34 GMT >> GOD, Whom this physician most >> assuredly without doubt **knows** and understands to be kind, just, >> and right > > Tell that to all thed children born deaf, dumb, blind, crippled, and > deformed, you f.ck nuckle. "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
("Kill them all. God will know His own")
Papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, in the Albigensian Crusade, when asked by a Crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics
MU - 25 Nov 2009 22:53 GMT >> GOD is One real world solution and He is always successful. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Weight Watchers and Jenny Craig's and Atkin's are all Approaches also to > dieting and life style changes. They are no such thing, they are dishonest, profit making business and nothing more. When you fly an approach in an airplane, the reason is to land successfully and debark. These frauds rarely have any sustainable successes, they only thing they "approach" is a near certainty of failure.
> It is interesting that you have to resort to word games when you do not have > the facts and data to back up what you write. Of course, that goes for most > of what you post. Your opinion. My facts just kicked your concepts on WW, JC and Atkins to the gutter...where all trash belongs.
QJ - 26 Nov 2009 00:06 GMT > Your opinion. My facts just kicked your concepts on WW, JC and Atkins to > the gutter...where all trash belongs. What facts. Can you cite established peer reviewed medical journals or a university sites where these facts are published.
MU - 26 Nov 2009 17:31 GMT > What facts. The ones you purposefully snipped, you disingenuous a.s.
QJ - 26 Nov 2009 18:27 GMT >> What facts. > > The ones you purposefully snipped, you disingenuous a.s. I see you snipped out:
> What facts. Can you cite established peer reviewed medical journals or a > university sites where these facts are published. So what does that make you?
It seems obvious that you resort to insults when you have no recognized medical sources to cite which back up Chung's 2 pd diet.
Do you really think you are fooling anyone?
MU - 26 Nov 2009 19:32 GMT >>> What facts. >> >> The ones you purposefully snipped, you disingenuous a.s. > > I see *PLONK*
MoSn - 26 Nov 2009 20:40 GMT >>>> What facts. >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > *PLONK* As I just wrote:
If Chung/MU had the scientific studies published in medical journals they would be citing those instead of insults.
MU, you have just proved what I said.
MoSn - 26 Nov 2009 20:38 GMT >>> What facts. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Do you really think you are fooling anyone? If Chung/MU had the scientific studies published in medical journals they would be citing those instead of insults.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 26 Nov 2009 21:35 GMT A neigbor wrote in part:
> If Chung/MU had the scientific studies published in medical journals they > would be citing those instead of insults. Neither Dr. Chung nor MU have cited any insults.
The New England Journal of Medicine is a medical journal and their moderators would not have allowed the following on their web site if they believed the 2PD-OMER Approach were without merit:
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/index.php?p=1364#comment-419
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3bdb9e06a702694b?
verity@gefinden.com - 27 Nov 2009 14:46 GMT > If Chung/MU had the scientific studies published in medical journals they > would be citing those instead of insults. Neither Dr. Chung nor MU have cited any insults.
The New England Journal of Medicine is a medical journal and their "moderators would not have allowed the following on their web site if they believed the 2PD-OMER Approach were without merit:
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/index.php?p=1364#comment-419 "
This is not a peer reviewed journal article but an opinion piece about health insurance reform. There is no mention of the two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. in the least. It mentions only in passing preventive practices related to costs, among which are those which would find the two pound diet,aka 2pd etc., deficient on several grounds and best ignored.
When do misleading assertions such as this cross the line and become mere lies?
MU - 27 Nov 2009 16:14 GMT >> If Chung/MU had the scientific studies published in medical journals > they >> would be citing those instead of insults. > > Neither Dr. Chung nor MU have cited any insults. You're a full fledged idiot.
Is that any better?
MU citing MU
MoSn - 28 Nov 2009 01:52 GMT >>> If Chung/MU had the scientific studies published in medical journals >> they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > MU citing MU Your comments obviously go along with your intellect and once again show when you do not have the facts, you resort to personal attacks and insults. Thank you MU/Chung for proving that once again.
MoSn - 28 Nov 2009 01:50 GMT > This is not a peer reviewed journal article but an opinion piece about > health insurance reform. There is no mention of the two pound diet,aka [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > When do misleading assertions such as this cross the line and become > mere lies? You are corrected. Not only is it not in a peer reviewed article but not even in a letter to the editor in the journal, but an on-line forum in which anyone can post a comment.
This just goes to show that no where is this 2 pound diet is in a peer reviewed medical journal.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 28 Nov 2009 11:34 GMT a neighbor wrote in part:
> You are corrected. Not only is it not in a peer reviewed article but not > even in a letter to the editor in the journal, but an on-line forum in which > anyone can post a comment. Incorrect.
The NEJM web site is moderated:
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/index.php?p=1364#comment-419
> This just goes to show that no where is this 2 pound diet is in a peer > reviewed medical journal. The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet:
http://WDJW.net/BeHealthier
It remains published on-line since 1998 where no one has been able to successfully refute its efficacy because it is backed by the 1st law of thermodynamics.
Since then, it has also been described in at least three books. Two by this medical MD/PhD scientist and one by a CDC research scientist, Dr. Leslie Dauphin.
Folks should remember that Darwin's theory of evolution was not published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal so that being published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal is not needed for widespread adoption either for thought or belief.
Indeed, belief in the 2PD-OMER Approach has led to the $2 million dollar guarantee that has remained in force for 2 years thereby providing the evidence for certain knowledge that truly eating the right amount (32 oz/day) of food cures obesity:
http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
May GOD give you, neighbor, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of "Trust the Truth:" http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002G22ZWG plus the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3bdb9e06a702694b?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Only the truth can cure the "hunger is starvation" delusion: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/74281ab7d7ce78de?
QJ - 30 Nov 2009 14:40 GMT > Incorrect. > > The NEJM web site is moderated: > > http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/index.php?p=1364#comment-419 I think if you look at the site you will see that my comment on Nov 26th was accepted ... at the end of the comments
My comments included:
Also not covering non-proven treatments like the one mentioned by Dr. Chung above and many others all over the internet.
So using your rationale and paraphrasing what you said:
Their moderators would not have allowed the following on their web site if they believed my comments were without merit:
Therefore, the NEJM must agree that your 2PD "approach" is non-proven.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 30 Nov 2009 15:57 GMT Quentin wrote:
> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Also not covering non-proven treatments like the one mentioned by Dr. Chung >above and many others all over the internet. Dr. Chung did not mention any treatments either proven or unproven. The 2PD-OMER Approach is neither a diet nor a treatment:
http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeSmart
>So using your rationale and paraphrasing what you said: > >Their moderators would not have allowed the following on their web site if >they believed my comments were without merit: > >Therefore, the NEJM must agree that your 2PD "approach" is non-proven. Incorrect. They simply agree that non-proven treatments mentioned by anybody should not be covered :-)
With all due respect, can you Quentin, publicly say "Jesus is LORD" using your mouth?
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
 Signature Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Heart Doctor and Author of "Trust the Truth:" http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002G22ZWG
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven? http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/980b41e6999de315?
Only the truth can cure the "hunger is starvation" delusion: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/74281ab7d7ce78de?
Ken - 30 Nov 2009 16:00 GMT Bottom line concening chung
Clinical Sociopathic *NARCISSISM*" Having 5 of these 9 "qualifies" a person as a narcissist... How many of these fit him to a "T"?
1. Feels grandiose and self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 2. Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion 3. Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions) 4. Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (narcissistic supply). 5. Feels entitled. Expects unreasonable or special and favourable priority treatment. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her expectations 6. Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends 7. Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with or acknowledge the feelings and needs of others 8. Constantly envious of others or believes that they feel the same about him or her 9. Arrogant, haughty behaviours or attitudes coupled with rage when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted
Jimmy Alpha - 30 Nov 2009 16:40 GMT sightwalker with a phd said:
> Quentin wrote: >> Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Dr. Chung did not mention any treatments either proven or unproven. > The 2PD-OMER Approach is neither a diet nor a treatment: Charlie, it is a *diet* by the dictionary definition of *DIET*. We who are not as smart as *you* sightwalker can't make up our own definitions for our way of living. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/diet
di·et 1 (dt) n. 1. The usual food and drink of a person or animal. 2. A regulated selection of foods, as for medical reasons or cosmetic weight loss. 3. Something used, enjoyed, or provided regularly: subsisted on a diet of detective novels during his vacation. adj. 1. Of or relating to a food regimen designed to promote weight loss in a person or an animal: the diet industry. 2. a. Having fewer calories. b. Sweetened with a noncaloric sugar substitute. 3. Designed to reduce or suppress the appetite: diet pills; diet drugs. v. di·et·ed, di·et·ing, di·ets v.intr. To eat and drink according to a regulated system, especially so as to lose weight or control a medical condition. v.tr. To regulate or prescribe food and drink for. [Middle English diete, from Old French, from Latin diaeta, way of living, diet, from Greek diaita, back-formation from diaitsthai, to live one's life, middle voice of diaitn, to treat.] diet·er n. di·et 2 (dt) n. 1. A national or local legislative assembly in certain countries, such as Japan. 2. A formal general assembly of the princes or estates of the Holy Roman Empire. [Middle English diete, day's journey, day for meeting, assembly, from Medieval Latin dita, alteration (influenced by Latin dis, day) of Latin diaeta, daily routine; see diet1.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. diet1 n 1. (Medicine) a. a specific allowance or selection of food, esp prescribed to control weight or in disorders in which certain foods are contraindicated a salt-free diet a 900-calorie diet b. (as modifier) a diet bread 2. (Cookery) the food and drink that a person or animal regularly consumes a diet of nuts and water 3. regular activities or occupations vb (Cookery) (usually intr) to follow or cause to follow a dietary regimen [from Old French diete, from Latin diaeta, from Greek diaita mode of living, from diaitan to direct one's own life]
Jimmy Alpha
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 30 Nov 2009 17:44 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part: >> Quentin wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Dr. Chung did not mention any treatments either proven or unproven. However, it is right that non-proven treatments mentioned by some other Dr. Chung out there should not be covered while something free like the 2PD-OMER Approach which has a $2 million guarantee of efficacy that has remained in force (Laus Deo!) since 2007 should become a matter of public policy if our policymakers were wise:
http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
>> The 2PD-OMER Approach is neither a diet nor a treatment: >> >> http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeSmart > >Charlie, it is a *diet* by the dictionary definition of *DIET*. Not for the discerning.
>We who >are not as smart as *you* sightwalker can't make up our own definitions [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >3. Something used, enjoyed, or provided regularly: subsisted on a diet >of detective novels during his vacation. Laus Deo for His compelling you to unwittingly prove that the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.
(1) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not the usual food and drink of a person or animal as that would be simply known as a "regular" diet.
(2) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a regulated selection of foods, as for medical reasons or cosmetic weight loss as that would require that there be a selection of foods as happens with the Atkins or South Beach diets. Indeed, a person on an Atkins diet can remain on Atkins while implementing the 2PD-OMER Approach by holding to 32 oz of food daily.
(3) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not something used, enjoyed, or provided in the manner of "subsisted on a diet of detective novels during his vacation."
Instead, the 2PD-OMER Approach is simply holding to 32 oz of food per day and is not a diet just as holding to 0 oz of food per day is fasting, which is also not a diet.
Truth is simple :-)
Would continue to gently suggest that you, Jimmy, stop lying before you lose your mind:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/013d97011bed20f3?
Yes, you know you have been lying:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/363c44ee711557eb?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to renew minds:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/976a4521b541c4cf?
May GOD renew and strengthen your brain about knowing what is right (Jeremiah 9:24), Jimmy, so that you would be able to rein in your deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9) which is causing you to continue sinning.
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of "Trust the Truth:" http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002G22ZWG
"... no one can say 'Jesus is LORD' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Cor 12:3) http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/035c93540862751c?
What are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven? http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/980b41e6999de315?
Only the truth can cure the "hunger is starvation" delusion: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/74281ab7d7ce78de?
Jimmy Alpha - 30 Nov 2009 18:25 GMT sightwalker with a phd said:
>> sightwalker with a phd said: >>> Quentin wrote: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > (1) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not the usual food and drink of a person > or animal as that would be simply known as a "regular" diet. Oh charlie!
> (2) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a regulated selection of foods, as > for medical reasons or cosmetic weight loss as that would require that > there be a selection of foods as happens with the Atkins or South > Beach diets. Indeed, a person on an Atkins diet can remain on Atkins > while implementing the 2PD-OMER Approach by holding to 32 oz of food > daily. Oh charlie!
> (3) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not something used, enjoyed, or provided > in the manner of "subsisted on a diet of detective novels during his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Truth is simple :-) Oh charlie, you should perhaps employ "truth"! Jimmy Alpha
QJ - 30 Nov 2009 18:29 GMT > Oh charlie, you should perhaps employ "truth"! Like the fable about the turtle and scorpion, it is Chung's nature to ignore the truth when it does not coincide with delusions.
Jimmy Alpha - 30 Nov 2009 21:09 GMT >> Oh charlie, you should perhaps employ "truth"! > > Like the fable about the turtle and scorpion, it is Chung's nature to ignore > the truth when it does not coincide with delusions. That could be why he, nor his positions are trusted by most in the groups? Jimmy Alpha
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 30 Nov 2009 21:16 GMT > Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote in part: >> Quentin wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >> Dr. Chung did not mention any treatments either proven or unproven. However, it is right that non-proven treatments mentioned by some other Dr. Chung who is possibly out there should not be covered while something free like the 2PD-OMER Approach which has a $2 million guarantee of efficacy that has remained in force (Laus Deo!) since 2007 should become a matter of public policy if our policymakers were wise:
http://WDJW.net/Guarantee
>> The 2PD-OMER Approach is neither a diet nor a treatment: >> >> http://HeartMDPhD.com/BeSmart > >Charlie, it is a *diet* by the dictionary definition of *DIET*. Not for the discerning.
>We who >are not as smart as *you* sightwalker can't make up our own definitions [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >3. Something used, enjoyed, or provided regularly: subsisted on a diet >of detective novels during his vacation. Laus Deo for His compelling you to unwittingly prove that the 2PD-OMER Approach is not a diet.
(1) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not the usual food and drink of a person or animal as that would be simply known as a "regular" diet.
(2) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not a regulated selection of foods, as for medical reasons or cosmetic weight loss as that would require that there be a selection of foods as happens with the Atkins or South Beach diets. Indeed, a person on an Atkins diet can remain on Atkins while implementing the 2PD-OMER Approach by holding to 32 oz of food daily.
(3) The 2PD-OMER Approach is not something used, enjoyed, or provided in the manner of "subsisted on a diet of detective novels during his vacation."
Instead, the 2PD-OMER Approach is simply holding to 32 oz of food per day and is not a diet just as holding to 0 oz of food per day is fasting, which is also not a diet.
Truth is simple :-)
Would continue to gently suggest that you, Jimmy, stop lying before you lose your mind:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/013d97011bed20f3?
Yes, you know you have been lying:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/363c44ee711557eb?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to renew minds:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/976a4521b541c4cf?
May GOD renew and strengthen your brain about knowing what is right (Jeremiah 9:24), Jimmy, so that you would be able to rein in your deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9) which is causing you to continue sinning.
Amen.
Love in the truth,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of "Trust the Truth:" http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002G22ZWG plus the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/6c7ea3fb5d1df708?
Ken - 01 Dec 2009 01:24 GMT Andy Chung Board-certified Fundy Fuckwadd and Author of "How I Became a Spamming Fundy Nutcase"
------Chung has been around for quite a fews years now, and over time (last 5 years or so) his posts have degenerated from once being helpful and knowledgeable to now being consumed with religion and what seems a paranoid belief in his 2lb diet. Very sad to a see a once clever man go down the gurgler like this, but that is unfortunately the nature of his disease - most likely schizophrenia-------
CCPed from "David"
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 01 Dec 2009 11:21 GMT Ken wrote in part:
> Schizophrenia can set in at any time but it's usual shows up in early > adulthood. > > I'm predisposed due to my biological maw spending her adult life in a > hospital as a paranoid schizophrenic before passing in '66 Source:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/40a1fbe0d8ff812a?
Only the truth, Who is Jesus, can keep you from becoming more delusional like your mom was.
There are others who are also observing that you are exhibiting psychopathology:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3f56b038f17f681b?
Bottom line concerning you, Ken:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/e444a7f27fc8ae79?
Truth is reality ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/459c9c0ed3b24ca2?
... despite your efforts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3160f9fd903ab7c2?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
May GOD give you, Ken, a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26) so that you would be born again of water and Spirit (John 3:3 and 3:5) so that you would come to trust the truth, Who is Jesus:
http://T3WiJ.com
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9ad0c19df5ffc2f7?
verity@gefinden.com - 01 Dec 2009 15:06 GMT http://healthresources.caremark.com/topic/topic100587438
There are five subtypes of schizophrenia: Paranoid
The key feature of this subtype of schizophrenia is the combination of false beliefs (delusions) and hearing voices (auditory hallucinations), with more nearly normal emotions and cognitive functioning (cognitive functions include reasoning, judgment, and memory). The delusions of paranoid schizophrenics usually involve thoughts of being persecuted or harmed by others or exaggerated opinions of their own importance, but may also reflect feelings of jealousy or excessive religiosity. The delusions are typically organized into a coherent framework. Paranoid schizophrenics function at a higher level than other subtypes, but are at risk for suicidal or violent behavior under the influence of their delusions.
Jimmy Alpha - 01 Dec 2009 02:52 GMT sightwalker with a phd said:
>> sightwalker with a phd said: >>> Quentin wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > 2007 should become a matter of public policy if our policymakers were > wise: Charlie, you may or may not be the most entertaining person in the world? My vote would lean to most, right up there with Dr Jack Kevorkian. Jimmy Alpha
verity@gefinden.com - 01 Dec 2009 15:10 GMT "However, it is right that non-proven treatments mentioned by some other Dr. Chung who is possibly out there should not be covered while something free like the 2PD-OMER Approach which has a $2 million guarantee of efficacy that has remained in force (Laus Deo!) since 2007 should become a matter of public policy if our policymakers were wise: "
Truth:
The two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. is quack science. It has flaws of both fact and logic. It was invented to fit a preexisting agenda and does not flow from evidence based on research. The diet inventor has many times been appraised of his flaws but clings to them for reasons other then science or valid medical practice
All of this nonsense of measure by weight or volume comes from the agenda fitting, not well established research. But sadly even the agenda is based on misunderstood and misapplied information. Even when corrected, the author of the agenda for nothing but pride and vain face saving can not deal with that truth.
The weight part came from a failed knowledge of a particular verse in scripture. When shown to be wrong, he promptly said he had been given a new interpretation to set the record straight. And of course this new information led where the agenda demands.
Bottom line, ignore any reference to the two pound diet,aka 2 pd etc. and stick with established information and sources of expert authorities which do not include the vanity of vanity distorting reality in this case.
There is a larger problem then misinformation obvious to anyone familiar with the inventor's posts.
May God bless and protect and heal.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 02 Dec 2009 10:57 GMT Bottom line concerning your feigned issues with the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/ba8379f6c69b4310?
<><
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to change hearts:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/8824c8a5b7c7518c?
Being hungrier truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9ad0c19df5ffc2f7?
Jimmy Alpha - 16 Dec 2009 12:07 GMT Excessive newsgroups removed because of courtesy by this gracious thoughtful honest forthright Christian poster, who being above reproach tells only the truth as he sees it.
> However, it is right that non-proven treatments mentioned by some > other Dr. Chung out there should not be covered while something free > like the 2PD-OMER Approach which has a $2 million guarantee of > efficacy that has remained in force (Laus Deo!) since 2007 should > become a matter of public policy if our policymakers were wise: charlieism
sounds like Maoism, or is it the other was around? Jimmy Alpha
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 16 Dec 2009 15:21 GMT >Andrew, in the Holy Spirit, boldly wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Which lie this time charlie? It is sad to note that there has been so many lies from satan, who is the source of all lies, through you that you've lost track of them. This does indicate psychopathology.
Again, would continue to gently suggest that you, Jimmy, stop lying before you possibly suffer a psychotic break from reality (i.e. lose your mind):
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/013d97011bed20f3?
Yes, you know you have been lying:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/363c44ee711557eb?
There is pure joy in being used by GOD to renew minds:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/976a4521b541c4cf?
May GOD renew and strengthen your brain about knowing what is right(Jeremiah 9:24), Jimmy, so that you would be able to rein in your deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9) which is causing you to continue lying.
Amen.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9ad0c19df5ffc2f7?
MoSn - 30 Nov 2009 17:14 GMT >> Incorrect. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Therefore, the NEJM must agree that your 2PD "approach" is non-proven. ROFLOL.
I noticed Chung's response and is his classic non sequitur response.
Your post on the NEJM sites shows that a posting there does not even have to accurate if as Chung writes that no where did he mention treatment. - if the NEJM did not think that what Chung, who listed himself as a doctor, wrote was not a treatment then they would not have allowed your false statement unless they do not check for accuracy or they view treatment in a broad sense of what a doctor recommends or does.
The bottom line is that Chung was misleading and wrong when he cited that NEJM forum as evidence that his 2 PD "approach" was in a peer reviewed journal. It is interesting that Chung cannot admit when he is wrong.
QJ - 30 Nov 2009 18:27 GMT > ROFLOL. > > I noticed Chung's response and is his classic non sequitur response. > > Your post on the NEJM sites shows that a posting there does not even have to
> accurate if as Chung writes that no where did he mention treatment. - if the > NEJM did not think that what Chung, who listed himself as a doctor, wrote was
> not a treatment then they would not have allowed your false statement unless > they do not check for accuracy or they view treatment in a broad sense of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > NEJM forum as evidence that his 2 PD "approach" was in a peer reviewed > journal. It is interesting that Chung cannot admit when he is wrong. Yes, no where in the peer reviewed medical literature is there anything about the 2 pound whatever you want to call it.
Chung's misrepresentation and his typical responses also show that he does not have the facts to back up what he posts here.
All we have is Chung's word about the large number of people who follow his "approach" and the success rate, and yet someone with a MD and PhD who has published papers in peer reviewed medical/science journals has not had this published.
He must at least realize that no legitimate journal would accept.
There is plenty of reason to not accept Chung's word even though some like MU do.
MoSn - 01 Dec 2009 02:50 GMT >> ROFLOL. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Yes, no where in the peer reviewed medical literature is there anything about
> the 2 pound whatever you want to call it. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > There is plenty of reason to not accept Chung's word even though some like MU
> do. Yes, there are plenty of reasons to accept what Chung posts because there is no in the medical/scientific literature about the 2 pound diet. As with so many of the other approaches to diets, like Atkins, Weight Watchers et al, there is nothing about the 2 pound "approach" (aka diet) in the lay press in magazines and TV news types of shows.
MU - 25 Nov 2009 22:50 GMT > People like you spout off easy answers because you don't > actually understand the problems you're attempting to > address. Real world solutions are never successfully one > size fits all. So if we destroy all nuclear materials, bombs, and associated, we cannot end the possibility of nuclear war?
See - a one size fits all solution.
MoSn - 25 Nov 2009 04:53 GMT > Not according to the first law of thermodynamics as physicist Muller > has explicated : > > http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm No where do Muller advocate or even mention Chung 2 pound diet in the site
As a matter of fact no where in the medical literature is Chung's diet discussed or even mentioned and there are no published studies in any of the standard medical literature.
MU - 25 Nov 2009 22:48 GMT >> The key to weight loss is to eat less. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I'm not making excuses, just providing food for thought. Are you saying that diabetics have no choice but overconsumption, obesity and, at the very least, being over ideal weight?
sometimers - 25 Nov 2009 23:17 GMT >>> The key to weight loss is to eat less. >> I'm overweight because I am diabetic. I am not diabetic [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Are you saying that diabetics have no choice but overconsumption, > obesity and, at the very least, being over ideal weight? Look around and tell me what you see. Statistically diabetics are above their ideal weight. It isn't for want of wishing, and trying, to be closer to ideal that we're where we are today.
That's not to say there aren't some thin diabetics.
For the rest of us it is a lifetime battle to control weight. AFAIC the less I weigh the longer my life might be.
MU - 26 Nov 2009 17:33 GMT >>>> The key to weight loss is to eat less. >>> I'm overweight because I am diabetic. I am not diabetic [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Look around and tell me what you see. Walls, computers, ocean, cat, mirror, sand, grass, etc.
> Statistically > diabetics are above their ideal weight. It isn't for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > control weight. AFAIC the less I weigh the longer > my life might be. The diabetics I know who follow the 2lb/day consumption rule are not overweight.
QJ - 26 Nov 2009 18:29 GMT > The diabetics I know who follow the 2lb/day consumption rule are not > overweight. So you say.
Meanwhile there is no studies in any of the peer reviewed medical journals where even the 2 pd diet is mentioned.
Diabetics who follow a proper diet are not overweight either.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD - 26 Nov 2009 19:36 GMT > >>>> The key to weight loss is to eat less. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > The diabetics I know who follow the 2lb/day consumption rule are not > overweight. And, the patients that this physician knows who are holding to 32 oz/ day of food either are reversing their type-2 diabetes or are no longer diabetic.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier especially for diabetics and other heart disease patients:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Marana tha
Prayerfully in the awesome name of our Messiah, LORD Jesus Christ,
Andrew <>< -- Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD Board-certified Cardiologist and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach: http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/3bdb9e06a702694b?
verity@gefinden.com - 27 Nov 2009 14:22 GMT > The diabetics I know who follow the 2lb/day consumption rule are not > overweight. "And, the patients that this physician knows who are holding to 32 oz/ day of food either are reversing their type-2 diabetes or are no longer diabetic."
Truth:
The two pound diet,aka 2pd etc. is quack science. It has flaws of both fact and logic. It was invented to fit a preexisting agenda and does not flow from evidence based on research. The diet inventor has many times been appraised of his flaws but clings to them for reasons other then science or valid medical practice
All of this nonsense of measure by weight or volume comes from the agenda fitting, not well established research. But sadly even the agenda is based on misunderstood and misapplied information. Even when corrected, the author of the agenda for nothing but pride and vain face saving can not deal with that truth.
The weight part came from a failed knowledge of a particular verse in scripture. When shown to be wrong, he promptly said he had been given a new interpretation to set the record straight. And of course this new information led where the agenda demands.
Bottom line, ignore any reference to the two pound diet,aka 2 pd etc. and stick with established information and sources of expert authorities which do not include the vanity of vanity distorting reality in this case.
There is a larger problem then misinformation obvious to anyone familiar with the inventor's posts.
May God bless and protect and heal.
MoSn - 25 Nov 2009 04:50 GMT > http://muller.lbl.gov/TRessays/22-ThePhysicsDiet.htm This is the article from the above site
The Physics Diet
Want to lose weight? Easy! Just remember the first law of thermodynamics: conservation of energy.
by Richard A. Muller
Technology for Presidents
November 14, 2003
Here's an old joke. The dairy industry hires a physicist to improve milk production. After several weeks, he's ready to lecture about his progress. He draws a circle on the blackboard and says, 'Consider a spherical cow.'
I've told this joke many times, but nobody ever laughs -- except other physicists. For the rest of you, I should explain that it is self-deprecating humor. It makes fun of our penchant for oversimplification.
This month I want to talk about diet and exercise for weight loss, and I'm going to oversimplify on purpose. Consider a spherical physicist.
Most dieters are so concerned about second-order effects, such as daily fluctuations in weight and changes in metabolism, that they lose track of the first law of thermodynamics: conservation of energy.
Want to lose a pound of fat? You can work it off by hiking to the top of a 2,500-story building. Or by running 60 miles. Or by spending 7 hours cleaning animal stalls. (It is amazing what scientists have actually measured. This last example is tabulated in the book Exercise Physiology by G. Brooks and T. Fahey.)
Exercise is a very difficult way to lose weight. Here's a rule of thumb: exercise very hard for one hour (swimming, running, or racquetball) and you'll lose about one ounce of fat. Light exercise for an hour (gardening, baseball, or golf) will lose you a third of an ounce. That number is small because fat is a very energy-dense substance: it packs about 4,000 food calories per pound, the same as gasoline, and 15 times as much as in TNT.
If you run for an hour, you'll lose that ounce of fat and also a pound or two of water. By the next day, when you've replenished the water, you might think, 'the weight came right back!' But you'd be wrong -- you really did lose an ounce. It is hard to notice, unless you keep running every day for a month or more, and don't reward yourself after each run with a cookie.
There is a much easier way to lose weight, as we can learn from the first law of thermodynamics. Eat less.
A reasonable daily diet for an adult is 2,000 food calories. That's 8.36 megajoules per day, or about 100 joules per second -- in other words, 100 watts. Most of that ends up as heat, so you warm a room as much as a bright light bulb. Cut your consumption by 600 calories per day and you'll lose a pound of fat every week. Most diet experts consider that a reasonable goal. Don't drop below 1,000 calories per day, or you might get lethargic. But at 1,400 calories per day, you can easily maintain an active life.
Of course, there is a catch. You'll be hungry.
It's not real hungernot like the painful hunger of starving people in impoverished countries. It's more of a mild ache, or an itch that you mustn't scratch. To be popular, a diet must somehow cope with this hunger. Weight Watchers does it with peer support. The food pyramid does it by encouraging you to eat unlimited celery. Some high-fat diets satisfy all your old cravings -- and figure you'll eventually cut back the butter you put on your bacon.
Last April, I had once again grown out of my belt. I wasn't grossly overweight: 205 pounds in a six-foot, one-inch body. That wouldn't be bad for a football player, but I'm 59 years old, and the excess pounds weren't in muscle. I had gained a pound a year for several decades. I felt heavy and old. I decided to try conservation of energy. I gave up lunch and snacks.
How to cope with the hunger? I attempted to enjoy it. I thought of the movie Lawrence of Arabia, in which T.E. Lawrence says, 'The trick is not minding that it hurts.' I told myself that the mild ache was only the sensation of evaporating fat. That interpretation has some basis in physics. When you lose weight, most of your fat is converted to the gases carbon dioxide and water vapor, and so you get rid of fat by breathing it out of your body.
Physics works, and I lost weight. By August, I was down to 175 pounds, a 30-pound drop. My belt went from 42 inches to 36 inches. My Zen-like approach to hunger also worked; I found myself declining offers of chocolate cake because I didn't want to lose the sensation of evaporation. I didn't change my level of activity, and managed to maintain my diet while taking trips to Cuba and Alaska -- and during a week-long backpacking excursion in the Sierra Nevada. A key innovation: I kept up the social aspects of lunch, without eating. I watched others gobbling cheeseburgers, while I sipped diet cola. It really wasn't that hard to do. And the mild afternoon discomfort was compensated by several positive developments. Dinner became truly wonderful. I hadn't had pre-dinner hunger for decades. A sharp appetite turns a meal into a feast. No more cheese 'appetizers' for me.
Moreover -- and this may sound silly coming from a physicist -- I was surprised that I began to feel lighter. I no longer walk down streets -- I float. Distant stores seem closer. And my knees have responded to the lighter load. Their aching, which I had mistakenly attributed to aging, went away.
Food is instant gratification. And fast-food chains and gourmet restaurants serve tasty food at remarkably low cost. It is a situation unprecedented in history and unanticipated by our genes. No wonder we are overweight.
Anybody can lose weight. Energy is conserved. Just stop scratching that itch. Of course, you'll have to sacrifice instant gratification. Is it worth it? You decide. Food is delicious and cheap. You might reasonably choose to take advantage of this unique historical circumstance, and decide to be fat.
It's been seven months since I started my diet, and two months since I left it. I've begun eating a light lunch, and having an occasional small snack. I'm still at 175. But I never want to lose the delicious edge of hunger before dinner, or the floating sensation when I walk. Moving takes less energy now, so I have more energy. I no longer feel like a spherical physicist. And for losing weight, dieting sure beats cleaning animal stalls.
-------------------
Richard A. Muller, a 1982 MacArthur Fellow, is a physics professor at the University of California, Berkeley, where he teaches a course called 'Physics for Future Presidents.' Since 1972, he has been a Jason consultant on U.S. national security
MU - 19 Nov 2009 00:46 GMT > Dr. Roberts and Dr. > Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than > you know or that I know. Don't expect Troll Kirkman to agree and since he has claimed to have me killfiled for years now, expect that he won't answer to this post either. Guarantee he reads them :)
You have stated the obvious, the only question remains are these two physicians honest with themselves and in their advice. Many cardiologists have written books and stated opinions that have over time become total BS. Robert Atkins comes to mind.
Jason - 19 Nov 2009 05:37 GMT > > Dr. Roberts and Dr. > > Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cardiologists have written books and stated opinions that have over time > become total BS. Robert Atkins comes to mind. Time will tell. Both of the cardiologists that wrote the book have been practicing medicine for many years and are (as of now) standing by their advice. Only God knows if they will be standing by their advice a dozen years from now.
MU - 19 Nov 2009 17:54 GMT >>> Dr. Roberts and Dr. >>> Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > advice. Only God knows if they will be standing by their advice a dozen > years from now. I agree and I haven't read the books, I'm not familiar with their work, maybe Andrew is and can comment. I do know that we had Atkins figured out in the mid 90s when we first got together on the 2PD and thoroughly trashed that clown, his book and ultimately his underlying reasons for propagating his ridiculous diet. The result of that is that verbal whipping is partially the reason that the (alt.diet.)lo-carb Usenet groups have diminished to nothingness.
The problem with publishing is in the publishing process, Publishers want to make money and that means you have to have fertile material that can be reproduced or recompiled in new books. They rarely publish for the common good and take a financial bath in the process.
Hence, I take a jaundiced view of the Atkins, Ornish and others especially when I find that a much simpler, consumption by volume based approach to losing and maintaining proper body weight works.
But hey, being simple, accepting hunger and espousing an eating approach based on what your food weighs isn't going to bring publishing $$$ to anyone including MU or Chung. People think complex = success and are built into the "diet" mode these days.
MoSn - 19 Nov 2009 22:45 GMT > But hey, being simple, accepting hunger and espousing an eating approach > based on what your food weighs isn't going to bring publishing $$$ to > anyone including MU or Chung. People think complex = success and are > built into the "diet" mode these days. Atkins Diet is pretty simple too .... so Atkins and Chung both have simple diets along with both being BS. Except, there are many sites from many sources about the Atkin's diet and except for a few groups in the usenet and Chung's own web site, there is little There are discussions about the Atlkin's Diet on medical sites and publication .... but none about Chung's diet
Jason - 20 Nov 2009 04:50 GMT > >>> Dr. Roberts and Dr. > >>> Sinatra are excellent doctors that know much MORE about cardiology than [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > anyone including MU or Chung. People think complex = success and are > built into the "diet" mode these days. I have read REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and James C. Roberts, M.D. Both of the cardiologists that wrote the book are very different than Atkins. They practice regular medicine but also make use of supplements to treat their patients. That means they open themselves up to criticism from other doctors and from anyone that believes doctors should only treat people with medications. I suggest that you read the book since you appear to have an open mind about this subject. jason
MU - 20 Nov 2009 14:15 GMT > I have read REVERSE HEART DISEASE NOW by Stephen T. Sinatra, M.D. and > James C. Roberts, M.D. Both of the cardiologists that wrote the book are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > subject. > jason Will do, thx.
MoSn - 19 Nov 2009 22:38 GMT > Many cardiologists have written books and stated opinions that have over time > become total BS. Robert Atkins comes to mind. Yes, and certainly Chung falls into that group along with Atkins
MU - 18 Nov 2009 20:10 GMT >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article >> <Jason-1611092327210001@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > know nothing about your medical training. However, I do know a great deal > of info. about Dr. Roberts and Dr Sinatra's medical training. Jason, you're arguing with the Kirkman Troll, a fool who has spent over a decade claiming physician level knowledge and expertise including being much brighter and wiser a cardiologist than the resident Dr. Chung.
Suggestion: Ignore The Troll.
Jason - 18 Nov 2009 22:16 GMT > >> It seems to me I heard somewhere that Jason wrote in article > >> <Jason-1611092327210001@67-150-121-86.lsan.mdsg-pacwest.com>: [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > > Suggestion: Ignore The Troll. Thanks for the information Jason
|
|
|