Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / December 2004
laetrile
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john - 16 Dec 2004 20:36 GMT http://www.whale.to/cancer/laetrile.html
Peter Moran - 16 Dec 2004 21:19 GMT > http://www.whale.to/cancer/laetrile.html John, have you ever asked Ralph Moss why Laetrile is not amongst his currently recommended alternative treatments for cancer? How can that be? (I have one of the reports patients can buy off him).
Also ask Manner what happened to mice who were injected with the enzymes but NOT given the Laetrile (in a double blind study, please), seeing Laetrile alone had no effect on cancer in his studies.
Laetrile had no effect on established cancer in Suguira's studies either, according to Moss's own account of the grand medical conspiracy's supposed suppression of his work. . The most that Suguira ever claiimed was a modest reduction in or delay in the onset of metastases in a mouse model, but that could not be replicated in a number of blinded studies.
Peter Moran
Steph - 17 Dec 2004 02:08 GMT >> http://www.whale.to/cancer/laetrile.html > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Peter Moran Peter, asking sensible questions of the whale is like trying to nail blancmange to the wall......
Peter Moran - 17 Dec 2004 08:30 GMT >>> http://www.whale.to/cancer/laetrile.html >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Peter, asking sensible questions of the whale is like trying to nail > blancmange to the wall...... Don't I know it. John couldn't care less. Others looking at Moss's and Manner's opinions may not grasp what flimsy material they are based upon.
Peter Moran
john - 21 Dec 2004 11:56 GMT "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c29929$0
> Don't I know it. John couldn't care less. Others looking at Moss's and > Manner's opinions may not grasp what flimsy material they are based upon. A trillion dollar yearly industry was at stake over laetrile, you could get any number of scientists to sh.t bricks for that sort of money. If you want to believe lies fair enough.
http://www.oasisofhope.com/
In most cases, Contreras is much more likely to use a natural chemotherapy called laetrile (also known as B-17 or amygdalin), which has been approved in Mexico but not in the United States. Amygdalin is found in more than 1,200 plants, including the seeds of apricots, peaches, plums and apples. Contreras' father is a pioneer in the use of laetrile, and he maintains that it is effective in treating common tumors such as carcinomas of the prostate, breast, colon and lungs, as well as lymphomas
J - 21 Dec 2004 12:54 GMT > "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c29929$0 > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > any number of scientists to sh.t bricks for that sort of money. If you want > to believe lies fair enough. Although the NCI mailing had not been designed to uncover negative case reports, 220 physicians submitted data on more than 1,000 patients who had received Laetrile without any beneficial response.
In July 1980, the NCI undertook clinical trials of 178 cancer patients who received Laetrile, vitamins and enzymes at the Mayo Clinic and three other prominent cancer centers. The study included patients for whom no other treatment had been effective or for whom no proven treatment was known. All patients had tumor masses that could easily be measured, but most of the patients were in good physical condition. Since Laetrile proponents were unable to agree on the formula or testing protocol for Laetrile, NCI decided to use a preparation that corresponded to the substance distributed by the major Mexican supplier, American Biologics. The preparation was supplied by the NCI Pharmaceutical Resources Branch and verified by a variety of tests. The dosage of Laetrile was based on the published recommendations of Krebs, Jr., and the Bradford Foundation.
The results of the trial were clear-cut. Not one patient was cured or even stabilized. The median survival rate was 4.8 months from the start of therapy, and in those still alive after seven months, tumor size had increased. This was the expected result for patients receiving no treatment at all. In addition, several patients experienced symptoms of cyanide toxicity or had blood levels of cyanide approaching the lethal range [6]. An accompanying editorial concluded:
Laetrile has had its day in court. The evidence, beyond reasonable doubt, is that it doesn't benefit patients with advanced cancer, and there is no reason to believe that it would be any more effective in the earlier stages of the disease . . . The time has come to close the books. [7]
john - 29 Dec 2004 18:30 GMT > In July 1980, the NCI undertook clinical trials of 178 cancer patients who > received > Laetrile, vitamins and enzymes at the Mayo Clinic and three other prominent "Two alleged trials took place under the direction of Dr. Charles Moertel at the Mayo Clinic. However as one might expect from a proven swindler operating at such a dishonoured location, these bore little resemblence to scientific methodology. Moertel cooked the first trial.by packing the trial with patients whose immune systems had already been destroyed by toxic chemotherapy. He then rigged the second trial by treating the patients with ascorbate for only two and a half months and then continuing with the "trial" for another 2 years. He then issued a perjured press statement in which he announced that vitamin C therapy had been proven ineffective, carefully concealing the fact that he had almost certainly caused the death of several patients by reason of this iniquitous fraud. The resulting carefully devised publicity on the subject also caused the deaths of several other patients who had been happily surviving on ascorbate."---Dr Richards & Frank Hourigan.
Steph - 22 Dec 2004 02:18 GMT > "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c29929$0 >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > want > to believe lies fair enough. Classy indeed
> http://www.oasisofhope.com/ > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > it is effective in treating common tumors such as carcinomas of the > prostate, breast, colon and lungs, as well as lymphomas Approved in Mexico? Impressive
john - 22 Dec 2004 09:22 GMT > Approved in Mexico? Impressive They approve chemo here when it has been proven to be 100% useless in 98% of cancers, quite apart from radiation
But when did that ever stop them approving useless and toxic drugs, as the dozens withdrawn show
john - 22 Dec 2004 09:43 GMT > Approved in Mexico? Impressive Have a look dear http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html and save us the pharma speil
Joe \(shaw\) - 22 Dec 2004 14:14 GMT Would you guys mind, please remove "alt.support.cancer and alt.support.cancer.prostate" from the newsgroups you are posting this discussion to? Just post to one group. It looks to me as if this doesn't qualify as "support".
Thanks!
>> Approved in Mexico? Impressive > > Have a look dear http://www.whale.to/a/dean.html and save us the pharma > speil john - 17 Dec 2004 13:44 GMT "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c1fbd9$0> "john" <nospamoridiots@vaccine.com> wrote in message
> news:cpsrmf$aq6$1@hercules.btinternet.com... > > http://www.whale.to/cancer/laetrile.html > > John, have you ever asked Ralph Moss why Laetrile is not amongst his > currently recommended alternative treatments for cancer? How can that be? Why don't you ask him? I don't recommend him for cancer therapy advice.
Why don't you ask the clinics that have been using it for 30 years, and still do it seems http://www.oasisofhope.com/eng/site_map/ why they use something if it doesn't do anything?
I know they use chemo when it doesn't do anything http://www.whale.to/v/horwin1.html but private clinics don't have a medical monopoly to funnel patients into their hospitals
Simm Webb - 17 Dec 2004 16:21 GMT Isn't this the stuff that Steve Mc Queen was pandering the last week of his life?
>"Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c1fbd9$0> "john" ><nospamoridiots@vaccine.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >http://www.whale.to/v/horwin1.html but private clinics don't have a medical >monopoly to funnel patients into their hospitals Grateful to be back.
Eddie MD OTF
john - 18 Dec 2004 18:47 GMT > Isn't this the stuff that Steve Mc Queen was pandering the last week of his > life? STEVE MCQUEEN http://www.whale.to/cancer/kelley/app3.html
Early in 1980 after he had stopped, within 6 months, the growth of his (McQueen's) own Cancer tumors, his body had encapsulated the dead Liver tumor and several smaller masses.
McQueen felt well and demanded that the unsightly bulge on his right side and little nodule on the left side of his neck be surgically removed. 1 was against this at the time but McQueen insisted.
Fatal Mistake
McQueen frequently called me on my FBI-tapped telephone. One call McQueen made to me, he stated in his famous hero voice, "I am going to blow the lid off this Cancer Racket." This of course freaked out the Cancer Establishment. The FBI then leaked it out to the National Inquirer scandal sheet of the CIA. This exposure was to discredit me. McQueen was then constantly watched and harassed by the FBI, CIA and the Media.
MCQUEEN MURDER
During the surgery, the skin over the liver was cut open and the en-capsulated dead Tumor fell out on the operating table. After surgery McQueen had a talk with me. During the night a government agent came into his room posing as a Physician on duty and injected McQueen with a blood clotting medication which was the cause of death.
THE ESTABLISHMENT INFILTRATION OF THE KELLEY PROGRAM
Movie actor Steve McQueen had completely cured his own CANCER using our Metabolic Program and had made plans to expose and "blow the lid off the cancer racket". Before he could accomplish this, he was murdered as only the Establishment can do it with all the fanfare and news media to destroy my program.
When this failed, the Establishment's next plan was to send a mole or infiltrator into the Kelley organization so that as close a call as the McQueen episode could never happen again.
A psychotic Cornell medical student, who had failed after the second year in medical school - was wandering in and out of the unorthodox medical community looking for help for his own mental instability and illness. During this fruitless search, Gonzalez stumbled onto the Kelley Program which he mentioned to his psychiatrist.
With the help of his psychoanalyst Colter Rule, M.D. and wife Betty Gessels, M.D., high level Establishment members in NYC, they, with this pathological liar, and a major faction of the Establishment forced Robert A. Good, Ph.D., M.D., President of Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center/Institute, to sponsor the Nicholas J. Gonzalez' review of Kelley's records and expose Kelley as a quack.
This project, being most important to the Establishment, led Cornell Medical School to reinstate the pathological liar as a 3rd year medical student under Good's supervision for this project dealing with the Kelley Program.
The infighting of the Medical Establishment over this project forced the most renowned medical researcher of all history to be fired and dismissed from Sloan Kettering and shipped out to Oklahoma City.
The Establishment gave the green light to Gonzalez to carefully investigate the Kelley Program and get the information to expose me as a fraud. This backfired on the Big Establishment as the second communication from Gonzalez to Good after Gonzalez reviewed the first 139 of thousands of records in my possession show.
Robert A. Good, M.D., Ph.D. 2 September
Medical Research Foundation
(at Oklahoma Allergy Clinic)
50 N.E. 13th Street
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.
Dear Dr. Good,
J - 18 Dec 2004 19:45 GMT > "Robert A. Good, M.D., Ph.D. 2 September So much for laetrile and other various "quack cures" that he wrote about. Jhttp://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_243/ai_109946497 Dr. Robert A. Good, MD, PhD, a celebrated cancer researcher, died on June 13, 2003 at the age of 81, after a long battle with esophageal cancer.
Steph - 18 Dec 2004 20:48 GMT Quite, quite mad..........
J - 18 Dec 2004 20:54 GMT > McQueen frequently called me on my FBI-tapped telephone. One call McQueen > made to me, he stated in his famous hero voice, "I am going to blow the lid > off this Cancer Racket." This of course freaked out the Cancer > Establishment. The FBI then leaked it out to the National Inquirer scandal > sheet of the CIA. This exposure was to discredit me. McQueen was then > constantly watched and harassed by the FBI, CIA and the Media. http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/spotquack.html 23. They Claim They Are Being Persecuted by Orthodox Medicine and That Their Work Is Being Suppressed Because It's Controversial.
The "conspiracy charge" is an attempt to gain sympathy by portraying the quack as an "underdog." Quacks typically claim that the American Medical Association is against them because their cures would cut into the incomes that doctors make by keeping people sick. Don't fall for such nonsense! Reputable physicians are plenty busy. Moreover, many doctors engaged in prepaid health plans, group practice, full-time teaching, and government service receive the same salary whether or not their patients are sickso keeping their patients healthy reduces their workload, not their income.
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/quacksell.html How Quackery Sells (read it all please)
This is just an excerpt Handling the Opposition
Quacks are involved in a constant struggle with legitimate health care providers, mainstream scientists, government regulatory agencies and consumer protection groups. Despite the strength of this science-based opposition, quackery manages to flourish. To maintain their credibility, quacks use a variety of clever propaganda ploys. Here are some favorites:
"They persecuted Galileo!" The history of science is laced with instances where great pioneers and their discoveries were met with resistance. Harvey (nature of blood circulation), Lister (antiseptic technique) and Pasteur (germ theory) are notable examples. Today's quack boldly asserts that he is another example of someone ahead of his time. Close examination, however, will show how unlikely this is. First of all, the early pioneers who were persecuted lived during times that were much less scientific. In some cases, opposition to their ideas stemmed from religious forces. Secondly, it is a basic principle of the scientific method that the burden of proof belongs to the proponent of a claim. The ideas of Galileo, Harvey, Lister and Pasteur overcame their opposition because their soundness can be demonstrated.
A related ploy, which is a favorite with cancer quacks, is the charge of "conspiracy." How can we be sure that the AMA, the FDA, the American Cancer Society, drug companies and others are not involved in some monstrous plot to withhold a cancer cure from the public? To begin with, history reveals no such practice in the past. The elimination of serious diseases is not a threat to the medical profession -- doctors prosper by curing diseases, not by keeping people sick. It should also be apparent that modern medical technology has not altered the zeal of scientists to eliminate disease. When polio was conquered, iron lungs became virtually obsolete, but nobody resisted this advancement because it would force hospitals to change. Neither will medical scientists mourn the eventual defeat of cancer. Moreover, how could a conspiracy to withhold a cancer cure hope to be successful? Many physicians die of cancer each year. Do you believe that the vast majority of doctors would conspire to withhold a cure for a disease which affects them, their colleagues and their loved ones? To be effective, a conspiracy would have to be worldwide. If laetrile, for example, really worked, many other nations' scientists would soon realize it.
Claims of "suppression" are used to market publications as well as treatments. Many authors and publishers purport to offer information that your doctor, the AMA, and/or government agencies "don't want you to know about."
Organized quackery poses its opposition to medical science as a "philosophical conflict" or "paradigm shift," rather than a clash between proven versus unproven or fraudulent methods. This creates the illusion of a "holy war" rather than a conflict that could be resolved by examining the facts. Another diversionary tactic is to charge that quackery's critics are biased or have been bought off by drug companies.
Quacks like to charge that, "Science doesn't have all the answers." That's true, but it doesn't claim to have them. Rather, it is a rational and responsible process that can answer many questions -- including whether procedures are safe and effective for their intended purpose. It is quackery that constantly claims to have answers for incurable diseases. The idea that people should turn to quack remedies when frustrated by science's inability to control a disease is irrational. Science may not have all the answers, but quackery has no answers at all! It will take your money and break your heart.
Many treatments advanced by the scientific community are later shown to be unsafe or worthless. Doctors also make mistakes. Such failures become grist for organized quackery's public relations mill in its ongoing attack on science. Actually, "failures" reflect a key element of science: its willingness to test its methods and beliefs and abandon those shown to be invalid. True medical scientists have no philosophical commitment to particular treatment approaches, only a commitment to develop and use methods that are safe and effective for an intended purpose. When a quack remedy flunks a scientific test, its proponents merely reject the test.
Each of these ploys represents a basic technique called misdirection -- analogous to what magicians do to shift the audience's attention away from what is important in order to deceive them. When faced with a criticism they cannot meet head on, quacks simply change the topic.
How to Avoid Being Tricked
The best way to avoid being tricked is to stay away from tricksters." J
Simm Webb - 18 Dec 2004 21:35 GMT You sure spread it as you make it up don't you.
>> Isn't this the stuff that Steve Mc Queen was pandering the last week of >his [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(McQueen's) own Cancer tumors, his body had encapsulated the dead Liver >tumor and several smaller masses. Grateful to be back.
Eddie MD OTF
Simm Webb - 18 Dec 2004 21:36 GMT Tell us, how often have you been cured from cancer? How often have you had cancer? There of those of us who have managed to live from it, and react favorably to treatments. Have you? What authority do you have to address us, other than the bottom end of your alimentary canal?
>> Isn't this the stuff that Steve Mc Queen was pandering the last week of >his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Fatal Mistake Grateful to be back.
Eddie MD OTF
Peter Moran - 17 Dec 2004 23:06 GMT > "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c1fbd9$0> > "john" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Why don't you ask him? I don't recommend him for cancer therapy advice. Except when it is about Laetrile?
> Why don't you ask the clinics that have been using it for 30 years, and > still do it seems http://www.oasisofhope.com/eng/site_map/ why they use > something if it doesn't do anything? You haven't ever thought about this? It helps that most of their patients are desperate to believe, but have low expectations, and aren't around to tell the tale when the treatment doesn't work. The "successes" are almost exclusively enabled by the myth that the conventional methods the very same patients received could not have worked, or that medical prognoses are always inviolable and accurate to the month.
The real question is why many of these clinics are treating hundreds of cases of proven advanced cancer every year but they never publish, not even in the many "alternative" medical journals, well-documented and verifiable cases of cancer remission. Can you explain this? The testimonials almost invariably require the benefit of the doubt to be given in some way or other.
There is an occasional good quality testimonial or anecdote, but we are not usually given the opportunity to verify the facts. They are also so rare in relation to the known case-load of alternaitve methods as to raise different kinds of doubt as to the effectiveness of the various treatment regimes.
Don't misunderstand me. The cancer patient has the right to pursue these methods.
This is about the quite clear ethical, scientific, and informed consent responsibilities of the many people now offering "cures" to seriously ill patients. It is about *other* inalienable rights of those poor folk. When such serious responsibilities are contimually and studiously avoided we are entitled to believe the worst of these people, and call them quacks, or any other name we might choose to use.
Peter Moran
john - 18 Dec 2004 20:06 GMT "Peter Moran" <moringa@gil.com.au> wrote in message news:41c36674$0$713$61c65585@uq-127creek-reader-
> You haven't ever thought about this? It helps that most of their patients > are desperate to believe, but have low expectations, and aren't around to > tell the tale when the treatment doesn't work. The "successes" are almost > exclusively enabled by the myth that the conventional methods the very same > patients received could not have worked, or that medical prognoses are > always inviolable and accurate to the month. Try looking at chemotherapy before you talk about the alternatives http://www.whale.to/cancer/quotes1.html basically it is used to kill off cancer patients, which it does very well
J - 18 Dec 2004 20:38 GMT > Try looking at chemotherapy before you talk about the alternatives Almost all yout alternatives have been disproven. Use the archives to reread Peter Moran's post. I know you saw it because you're in the thread on that discussion. *tip for you for searching archives" type disproven and unproven and Peter Moran as the author.
And see Steph's "Questions to Ask" http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.cancer/msg/1b25021ba108fca1?hl=e n&lr=&ie=UTF-8
J
john - 19 Dec 2004 13:05 GMT "J" <nobody@to.contact> wrote in message
> Almost all yout alternatives have been disproven. Use the archives to reread > Peter Moran's post. I have read them, for what they are worth. I know what has been disproven--chemo http://www.whale.to/cancer/articles.html
But they still use it anyway http://www.whale.to/v/horwin1.html
Try some of the other medical hoaxes http://www.whale.to/a/hoaxmed.html
J - 19 Dec 2004 15:22 GMT > "J" <nobody@to.contact> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I have read them, for what they are worth. I know what has been > disproven--chemo Update 2005. In America alone, there are 9.6 million people living with a history of cancer, all treated conventionally. J
john - 19 Dec 2004 15:38 GMT > > Try looking at chemotherapy before you talk about the alternatives > > Almost all yout alternatives have been disproven. Use the archives to reread > Peter Moran's post. You are just a lying pharma shill, Contreras has been using Laetrile in his clinic for at least 30 years
J - 19 Dec 2004 15:48 GMT > lying pharma shill, chill, pill. j
john - 19 Dec 2004 20:24 GMT "J" <nobody@to.contact> wrote in message > chill, pill.
> j lying pill pushing pharma shill
Stephen Jordan - 19 Dec 2004 00:11 GMT > http://www.(munged) Hee hee.
It's lawn fertilizer, but it's entertaining.
Steve J __ "A man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe." --Euripides
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