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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / May 2005

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medical negligence or good doctoring?

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Mr. Other Side of Story - 10 May 2005 15:38 GMT
About 4 years ago my wife was diagnosed with lower bowel cancer (adino
carcinoma). The diagnosis was discovered just after the cancer went into
'self remission' e.g. for a number of weeks before she felt very very tired
and could not do half the things she could previously. One night when she
went to the bathroom it was as if her bowel exploded and there was lots of
blood in the stool, so we rushed up to the hospital where they said they
found a malignant tumour. However, after the hemiriage my wife reported that
she felt much better like back to normal, but the doctors said the cancer is
in remission and could come back at any time and kill her and they
reccommended she first have chemo and operation (resection) and then some
more chemo after the operation. She did these hard and painful things.

After the treatment was over about 4 years ago she had to see an oncologist
and her surgeion periodically to be monitored for recurrence and/or
metastasis because the propability was expected because during her resection
the surgeon established that the cancer had already spread to the nearby
lymph nodes.

After the initial operation my wife recovered most of the weight she lost
during the cancer and the operation but she was never able to maintain her
previous normally stable weight.

The first test she had shortly after the op was I think a barium type of
enema test to establish if there was any leakage firom the operation and
there was not.

About a year later she had a ct scan and that was clear.

During the second, third, and fourth years however, I am now surprised to
note that the doctors looking after her did not carry out ct scans but
carried out only cancer marker tests and she was assured each time that the
tests were clear.

About 4 years after the operation for cancer, my wife had a very small fall
to the carpet in our bedroom and a pain developed in her pelvis which she
reported to her GP. The GP arranged a scan of the spine (not the pelvis
area) and the scan only showed moderate degenarative changes.

About 4 months later in Feb, 05 my wifes pains became permanent in the
pelvis and down her left leg so she reported this to a doctors who arranged
a non-contrast ct scan of abdomen and pelvis which showed enlarged lymph
glands lying on the left common iliac artery, but overall the examination of
the abdomen and pelvis was otherwise negative it was reported by the
radiologist.

By March 05 my wife was in agony and needed extra strong subscription pain
killers and she had also lost about 5 kg of weight in about a month, so the
doctor prescribed a nclear medicine scan of the bones but this scan did not
reveal any cancer in the bones but suggested that a ct scan should be done.

At beginning of May 2005 a ct scan of the chest, abdomen and pelvis were
done and eventually, what would have been obvious by the loss of weight, was
scientifically also shown in the ct scans which showed 5 to 6mm nodules on
the lungs (about 10). Also, tumour masses in the pelvis in the pelvis, also
significan hydronephrotic dilatation near the left kidney (the probable
cause of the terrible pain).

What I would like to know is how come these large and matured tumours were
unable to be detected before? I mean do they just grow so quickly in a
matter of days, months or a few years in the making?

Also, if markers were not reliable (they were saying to my wife that all was
ok because the markers were ok) but any one could see that the cancer was
there in the background because my wife was never able to maintain her
weight. Thats another thing they never really took records of her weight
each time shw went to see the doctors.

So the obvious questions worrying me are a)why did the doctors not arrange
at least one detailed scan per year for early detection and treatment? and
b) why did they not take note of her weight?

Any useful information would be appreciated. Thanks.
Danny - 10 May 2005 16:03 GMT
Hello,

to be quite sincere,this looks like a medical mismanagement to me.Large
bowel adenocarcinoma is kind of an aggressive cancer-it tends to spread
not just to nearby lymph nodes,but also brain and lungs.I believe that
was the reason to conduct thorough check-ups(I believe not annually,but
once in 6 months!),with regular colonoscopies and abdominal/pelvic
multislice CT with oral and IV contrasts,chest X-rays and neurological
exam.
Blood tumor markers are not that specific-they can be within normal
ranges in patients with cancer,and sometimes they can be elevated in
people that have not cancer,due to other reasons.
I am really sorry for your wife,I sincerely hope everything goes well.
Steph - 11 May 2005 02:57 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> multislice CT with oral and IV contrasts,chest X-rays and neurological
> exam.

With all due respect, you are talking nonsense.
She had all the correct treatment. Finding an untreatable recurrence earlier
would have made no difference at all to the outcome.

> Blood tumor markers are not that specific-they can be within normal
> ranges in patients with cancer,and sometimes they can be elevated in
> people that have not cancer,due to other reasons.
> I am really sorry for your wife,I sincerely hope everything goes well.
Danny - 11 May 2005 07:31 GMT
She had all the correct treatment?I am not going to pay any respect to
you,that is for sure-you don't know what you are talking about!!If you
think that drawing blood for 4 years just to check for highly
non-specific CEA is correct treatment,you just don't know what you are
talking about!I do know a lady that suffered from colorectal
adenocarcinoma,and she had CEA of 0.2(more than normal).Of course,her
doctors performed a colonoscopy to find the tumor.
What really makes me mad here,is when people that don't know first
thing about medical procedures give advises.And how can you say that
the outcome would have not be different?Oh,I see..we have a false
prophet here!!
J - 11 May 2005 09:42 GMT
> She had all the correct treatment?I am not going to pay any respect to
> you,that is for sure-you don't know what you are talking about!!If you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the outcome would have not be different?Oh,I see..we have a false
> prophet here!!

Steph's a physician and radiation oncologist with many years experience.
What are your qualifications?
J
Danny - 11 May 2005 11:40 GMT
Sure she has "many years of experience".Yet,she claims that Gallium-67
scintigraphy is not used for the detection of lymphoma(other
posting).Kids in high school know that Gallium scintigraphy is the
first choice in detecting lymphoma(not the best,there is always PET
scan).I just wonder when and where did she get all that "many years of
experience"?Regarding my qualifications-I am not here for bragging,I
tried to help this gentleman that is upset with very good reason over
his wife's condition and the way it was handled.
J - 11 May 2005 11:59 GMT
> Sure she has "many years of experience".Yet,she claims that Gallium-67
> scintigraphy is not used for the detection of lymphoma(other
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> tried to help this gentleman that is upset with very good reason over
> his wife's condition and the way it was handled.

Steph's a male...
As best I can tell from research and a reply, by a medical specialist on
sci.med, a Gallium scan is non-specific.
Picks up on areas of inflammation and/or infection. It will pick up local
infections and other sources of cytokine production.
And I believe stryped's been told by some on sci.med.laboratory that his
bloodwork is not indicative of lymphoma.

Of course, Mr. Other Side is upset about his wife's cancer reoccurence..
Very understandable.
J
Danny - 11 May 2005 12:17 GMT
Well,not quite.Galium scintigraphy picks up around 80% of Hodgkin's or
non-Hodgkin's lymphoma,due to uptake of Gallium,it is not that
non-specific(just like bone scintigraphy-Tehnecium 99 uptake can
indicate other conditions than bone cancer).Mr. Strype bloodwork indeed
is not indicative on lymphoma,that is what I have told him.
Regarding Mr. Other Side's wife-I did understand that the primary tumor
was removed surgically.However,NO ONE can claim that there wasn't
metastatic tumor(s) at any time after the surgery,simply because no one
was looking for one!CEA can be within normal ranges in cases with
pretty bad and invasive colorectal adenocarcinoma,and it is not a
mystery.We can not agree on one simple thing-would there be any
difference  at the outcome if these metastatic tumors were found.I
still do believe there would have been diference-if nothing
else,palliative measures may have been considered at some other level.
Steph - 12 May 2005 03:35 GMT
> Well,not quite.Galium scintigraphy picks up around 80% of Hodgkin's or
> non-Hodgkin's lymphoma,due to uptake of Gallium,it is not that
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> still do believe there would have been diference-if nothing
> else,palliative measures may have been considered at some other level.

What a load of tripe. Gifted amateur, are you?
Danny - 12 May 2005 04:32 GMT
The only amateur with the bad attitude here is you.No one else.To make
it worse,such bad amateurs like you kill people.On a regular basis.
Steph - 12 May 2005 05:35 GMT
> The only amateur with the bad attitude here is you.No one else.To make
> it worse,such bad amateurs like you kill people.On a regular basis.

Careful, now.
Libel is a very dangerous toy
Danny - 12 May 2005 10:52 GMT
Vice Versa.Just watch how many of them you stated here.
Jeff - 11 May 2005 16:14 GMT
> Sure she has "many years of experience".Yet,she claims that Gallium-67
> scintigraphy is not used for the detection of lymphoma(other
> posting).Kids in high school know that Gallium scintigraphy is the
> first choice in detecting lymphoma(not the best,there is always PET
> scan).

Which high school?

>I just wonder when and where did she get all that "many years of
> experience"?Regarding my qualifications-I am not here for bragging,I
> tried to help this gentleman that is upset with very good reason over
> his wife's condition and the way it was handled.
Steph - 12 May 2005 03:26 GMT
> Sure she has "many years of experience".Yet,she claims that Gallium-67
> scintigraphy is not used for the detection of lymphoma(other
> posting).

No I didn't. I said it wasn't the first test to do. Comprehension problem?

> Kids in high school know that Gallium scintigraphy is the
> first choice in detecting lymphoma(not the best,there is always PET
> scan).

Thank God we have oncologists, or we'd be managed by kids in high school,
then, wouldn't we?

> I just wonder when and where did she get all that "many years of
> experience"?Regarding my qualifications-I am not here for bragging,I
> tried to help this gentleman that is upset with very good reason over
> his wife's condition and the way it was handled.

Unfortunately your "advice" was neither helpful, nor supportive.

By the way, I'm a "he"
Danny - 12 May 2005 10:57 GMT
With all due respect,it is a simple lie.Here is what you said regarding
Gallium scintigraphy(posting"rectal lymphnodes"):
"Why on earth would someone order a gallium scan? You don't make a
diagnosis
of lymphoma by doing a gallium scan."
Steph - 12 May 2005 16:16 GMT
> With all due respect,it is a simple lie.Here is what you said regarding
> Gallium scintigraphy(posting"rectal lymphnodes"):
> "Why on earth would someone order a gallium scan? You don't make a
> diagnosis
> of lymphoma by doing a gallium scan."

And that is true.
You make a diagnosis of lymphoma by taking a careful history, doing a
physical examinaton, and biopsying an appropriate part of the patient.
You're boring me now
Danny - 12 May 2005 16:58 GMT
You bored me long ago.As far as I am concerned,this discussion is
over.You may sell these "procedures" to others that don't understand
what you are talking about.
Steph - 12 May 2005 03:23 GMT
> She had all the correct treatment?I am not going to pay any respect to
> you,that is for sure-you don't know what you are talking about!!If you
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the outcome would have not be different?Oh,I see..we have a false
> prophet here!!

Get a grip Danny, if you are talking to me.
Mr. Other Side of Story - 11 May 2005 03:19 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> people that have not cancer,due to other reasons.
> I am really sorry for your wife,I sincerely hope everything goes well.
Danny - 11 May 2005 07:39 GMT
Sir,you are welcome.I don't know which country you are living in,but I
still think it was medical mismanagement.No one can claim that "the
outcome would not have been different",because it was "untreatable
reccurence".Everyone deserves a chance,and your wife wan't given a
proper chance.I am deeply convinced that was the case.Every tumor is
treatable,and there are number of procedures to chose from.I just hope
all goes well,I will pray for you.
J - 11 May 2005 11:41 GMT
> Sir,you are welcome.I don't know which country you are living in,but I
> still think it was medical mismanagement.No one can claim that "the
> outcome would not have been different",because it was "untreatable
> reccurence".Everyone deserves a chance,and your wife wan't given a
> proper chance.I am deeply convinced that was the case.Every tumor is
> treatable,and there are number of procedures to chose from.

There was no tumor at the time. It had been originally removed surgically.

She had adjuvant chemotherapy.
He's from Australia.
How about clicking on "show quoted text" (in the middle of the post in
Google) and bottom posting, so we can see who and what you are replying
to?
J
Jeff - 10 May 2005 17:12 GMT
I am sorry to hear about your wife.

I think you should talk about this with the doctor. I don't know what the
standards of follow-up care are for the type and stage of cancer she had a
few years ago. I am sure that he or she can explain what he or she did for
followup and why further testing was thought to be unnessary or unhelpful.

This site from the US National Cancer Institute seems to indicate that blood
tests for CEA (a protein made by cancer cells) is regularly used for
followup and that there are no good studies which suggest that regular CTs
or similar imaging are useful.
http://www.nci.nih.gov/cancertopics/pdq/treatment/colon/healthprofessional

This site seems to suggest that chest xrays, colonoscopy and tests for blood
in her stool are all that is needed:
http://www.cancersociety.com/colon_tp.cfm

Unfortuantely, it may be that with your wife's type of cancer, to make a
major impact, you need to catch the recurrance before you would see it on CT
scan.

The lymph nodes seen in Feb. 05 might  have been thought to be left over
from the original cancer or may have been concerning at the time. Some
weight loss when one has chronic pain, as your wife did before March 05 may
be expected, because people may not be eating as well. It seems to me that
appropriate testing was done in March with appropriate followup testing done
1 or 2 months later in May.

It seems to me that the care she recieved since November seems ok, at least
without knowing more details. However, I am a bit concerned that it seems
she had only one colonoscopy since the surgery.

Even with better followup care, I don't know if it would have made any
difference, except that your wife's pain may have been better managed.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Jeff
Mr. Other Side of Story - 11 May 2005 03:33 GMT
Jeff thanks for the info. Yes I am disappointed that the tests were few, in
fact only one colonoscopy in the first year then in the other 3 years only
markers. I cannot help thinking that they did know of her condition but may
have decided that even if they proved something in tests they could not do
anything about it. If they had said that it would have been more
understandable, but me and my wife relied on the markers as they said they
were clear each time we thought that if they were not some early treatment
would recommence. However, what I am concluding now is that after completing
the pre and post op treatment, for whatever reason the policy is not to
provide in between preventative treatment before tumours have matured and
identified. Some doctors tell us that chemo does kill cancer cells yet they
are reluctant to periodically give chemo (maybe is because of its toxic
nature who knows). I have not really understood why they do not give
in-between treatment. It's either its too toxic or they feel it will be a
waste of time trying......but from the patients point of view its more
conmforting to note that at least they tried something instead of waiting
for the tumours to form and be identified then suggest treatment. Our
oncologist now want to recommence treatment using chemo and one other new
drag combined.
>I am sorry to hear about your wife.
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Jeff
 
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