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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Cancer / March 2005

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Participation in experimental treatments

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eveline - 03 Mar 2005 04:11 GMT
participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced cancer
who try experimental treatments are helped more than previously thought,
according to a comprehensive look at government-sponsered tests over a
decade.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7067692
J - 03 Mar 2005 09:02 GMT
> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.

Here's another benefit.
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D88HMV4G0.htm
Oncolytics gets FDA OK for Reolysin trial

FEB. 28 2:22 P.M. ET Oncolytics Biotech Inc. said Monday that regulators cleared
the company to begin a clinical trial of its Reolysin cancer treatment in
patients with recurrent brain tumors.

Shares of the Calgary, Alberta-based company rose 21 cents, or 4.6 percent, to
$4.78 in afternoon trading on the Nasdaq.

The biotechnology company said the Phase I/Phase II trial will study the safety
of a single dose of Reolysin administered intravenously in up to 30 patients who
have not responded to traditional treatments. Up to 14 patients will be added
when a maximum tolerated dose is determined.
J - 03 Mar 2005 09:10 GMT
> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced cancer
> who try experimental treatments are helped more than previously thought,

http://www.cancerguide.org/clinical_trials.html
CancerGuide: Clinical Trials and Experimental Treatments
Clinical trials are conducted within a complex system with fairly well defined
rules. A good understanding of the system gives you a framework for making good
decisions. It also gives you an essential framework for understanding clinical
trial results reported in the medical literature. There are can find brief
superficial explanations of the sytem in many sites. My approach is to give you
a detailed and intensely patient oriented tour specifically designed to help you
find the best treatment.

Understanding the details will help you:

   * Ask the best questions about trials you're considering
   * Know which kind of trial is likely to be appropriate and more quickly weed
out inappropriate trials
   * Recognize promising trials
   * Recognize unpromising trials
   * Give you other options if eligiblity or randomization is making it hard to
get the treatment you want
   * Maximize your odds through strategic thinking

In this article I set the stage with a brief introduction to the system, and
then link you to CancerGuide's detailed Phase by Phase Guides. If you're already
somewhat familiar with clinical trial phases you may want to skip directly to
the detailed guides.
A Few Important Principles

As you go through CancerGuide's clinical trial articles, there are a few general
principles which you'll want to keep in mind which will help you put it all
together.
Promise and Uncertainty

I talk much about things being more or less promising based on the data, but
often you just can't tell. When considering previous results of new treatments
there is almost always great uncertainty. Often the data simply do not exist to
suggest a new approach is truly promising and you may be unable to determine
whether a particular trial is promising or not. Don't expect to be able to come
to a definite conclusion about each and every trial - or even most of them. But
when there are data suggesting there is real promise, and when you find that
data, understand it, and act upon what you find, you may change your odds by
getting the best treatment!

Each Option Must Be Compared to All Others

Although I describe strategies for investigating and thinking about each phase
of trial, in reality, to find the best, any treatment option must be evaluated
in the context of all other options. The alternative to a Phase I trial is not
just another Phase I trial, but any other trials you are qualified for as well
as any standard treatments which might be of value. It is impossible to know if
something is promising unless you know what results can be expected with
standard therapies.
Variations on a Theme

Trials can vary from the standard or classic model, and a surprisingly large
number of trials are non-standard in one way or another. I describe the standard
and some of the variations for each phase of trial, but I can't hope to cover
all of the possiblities. But understanding the standard cases will help you
figure out how to understand and evaluate trials even when they don't quite fit
the classic mold.

The System In a Nutshell
Phase I Trials

   * In a Phase I Trial, the first phase of testing, a new drug or treatment is
tried in humans for the first time ever. The goal of the Phase I trial is not to
see how well a new treatment works but rather just to discover how much of the
drug can be given safely, and to understand its side effects and chemistry in
the body. These trials most closely fit the stereotype of a truly experimental
treatment. Phase I trials are for patients with advanced cancer who have no
effective standard treatment.

Steve's Advice In a Nutshell
The limited experience with the treatment normally makes it extremely difficult
to evaluate the promise of the treatment, and there is a significant risk of
getting an inadequate dose, even if the treatment is effective. Phase I trials
are open to some patients who don't qualify for Phase II trials, and very
carefully selected Phase I trials can be promising, but most patients who
qualify for other trials would be well advised to avoid Phase I trials.

Phase II Trials

   * In a Phase II Trial, the new treatment is tested to see if it can shrink
tumors in patients with a particular type of cancer using the dose and schedule
set during the prior Phase I trial. This is the first test of efficacy. Like
Phase I trials, Phase II trials are for patients with advanced cancer, but Phase
II trials also have some additional entry requirements.

Steve's Advice In a Nutshell
Phase II trials offer the opportunity to get a new treatment at the correct
dose, and without the uncertainties of randomization. The amount of prior
evidence for a treatment in Phase II is highly variable, but can be enough to
suggest the trial is promising. In my judgement if you have advanced cancer,
your greatest chance to benefit from a new treatment through a clinical trial is
probably a Phase II trial, but the trial must be carefully selected.
Phase III Trials

   * In a Phase III Trial, the new treatment is compared to the standard
treatment to see which produces better survival. Phase III trials are normally
randomized - half the patients are randomly selected to get the new treatment,
and half the standard treatment. The survival of the two groups is then compared
to determine which treatment was best. In some cases, Phase III trials compare
two standard treatments or two new treatments. Phase III trials are not limited
to patients with advanced cancer, but may be a consideration at any stage.

Steve's Advice In a Nutshell
Phase III trials are randomized, which means you don't know what treatment you
will get until after you enter and you are randomly assigned to an arm of the
trial. This complicates the decision making! In an ethical Phase III trial, the
evidence shouldn't favor one treatment to the degree that the outcome is a
forgone conclusion, but it is still quite possible that a rational analysis of
the trial in light of your values would conclude that one arm is more desirable.
Phase III trials involve better established treatments than earlier phase trials
and there should be more available evidence on the treatments involved than is
the case for earlier phase trials. Phase III trials can offer the chance for an
improved treatment, but require very careful strategic thinking.

Adjuvant Trials

   * Adjuvant Trials are tests of additional treatment intended to reduce the
risk of recurrence after initial treatment (usually surgery) for apparently
localized disease. Most adjuvant trials are basically a special type of Phase
III trial, and are randomized, but the considerations in choosing one are
different enough that they deserve a separate discussion.

Steve's Advice In a Nutshell
You only get one crack at adjuvant therapy, so you need to investigate adjuvant
trials before starting any standard adjuvant therapy! You also have to enter the
trial within a limited time after completing the primary treatment and sometimes
even before starting the primary treatment, so you must investigate these trials
promptly. Your decision must take into account your risk of recurrence, the side
effects of treatment, whether there is any standard adjuvant treatment, and the
specific evidence for the treatments used in any particular trial.

Regulatory and Institutional Aspects in Brief

Human Subject Protection

Clinical trials are governed by a complex bureaucracy and process designed to
protect people from unethical research. CancerGuide does not dwell on regulatory
protections because I believe that your best protection is to become deeply
informed! But you should know that all reputable clinical trials are approved by
a local Institutional Review Board to ensure that they meet minimum nationally
established ethical standards. This includes ensuring that trials do not
seriously harm patients solely for the purpose of gathering research data, that
the risks are appropriate considering the situation, and that patients who
participate in a trial give their informed consent through a process which
culminates in signing an informed consent document. For advice on how to get the
most out of informed consent, see my article, A Guide to Informed Consent for
The Active Patient
Regulation of Experimental Drugs and Devices

In the US, to use any drug or device that is not approved for general marketing
(e.g. "experimental") researchers must obtain a permit called an IND. An IND is
approval to use an experimental drug usually in a clinical trial, but it does
not mean the FDA has approved the treatment for general use or even that it
thinks the treatment has merit. Occasionally I see drugs or nutritional
supplements touted as "FDA approved" when the only approval is an IND for use in
clinical trials.
Eligiblity Criteria

A notable and important feature of the clinical trial system is the strict and
complex set of eligiblity criteria for each trial. Understanding this aspect of
the system will make it much easier to figure out which trials you qualify for.
The eligiblity criteria are include relatively standard requirements for all
trials as a whole, some requirements which are typical of each phase trial, as
well as many requirements which are specific to a particular trial. I cover the
standard phase specific requirements in my detailed article on each phase of
trial.

Next Steps
Steve's Strategic Clinical Trial Guides: Phase by Phase

(see more) there and...

he goes on to cite a testicular cancer patient, which is germ cell...curable.

Phase I and II also measure for toxicity.
J - 03 Mar 2005 09:51 GMT
> > participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced cancer
> > who try experimental treatments are helped more than previously thought,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> The Active Patient
> Regulation of Experimental Drugs and Devices <snipped>

http://www.phrma.org/publications/publications/2004-06-30.1035.pdf (excerpts)
This document is effective from October 1, 2002.

The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) represents
research-based pharmaceutical
and biotechnology companies. Our members discover, develop, manufacture and market
new medicines and vaccines
to enable patients to live longer and healthier lives.
The development of new therapies to treat disease and improve quality of life is a
long and complex process. A critical part of that process is clinical research, the
study of a pharmaceutical product in humans (research participants).

We conduct clinical trials in accordance with applicable laws and regulations, as
well as locally recognized good clinical practice, wherever in the world clinical
trials are undertaken. When conducting multinational, multi-site trials, in both the
industrialized and developing world, we follow standards based on the Guideline for
Good Clinical
Practice of the International Conference on Harmonization.

c. Training of Investigators. Investigators and their staff are trained on the
clinical trial protocol, pharmaceutical product,
and procedural issues associated with the conduct of the particular clinical trial.

d. IRB/EC Review. Prior to commencement, each clinical trial is reviewed by an
IRB/EC that has independent decisionmaking
authority, and has the responsibility and authority to protect research
participants.

? The IRB/EC has the right to disapprove, require changes, or approve the clinical
trial before any participants are enrolled
at the institution or investigative site for which it has responsibility.
? The IRB/EC is provided relevant information from prior studies, the clinical trial
protocol, and any materials
developed to inform potential participants about the proposed research.

e. Informed Consent. We require that clinical investigators obtain and document
informed consent, freely given without
coercion, from all potential research participants.

f. Clinical Trial Monitoring. Trials are monitored using appropriately trained and
qualified individuals. The sponsor will
have procedures for these individuals to report on the progress of the trial
including possible scientific misconduct.
? These individuals verify compliance with good clinical practices, including (but
not limited to) adherence to the
clinical trial protocol, enrollment of appropriate research participants, and the
accuracy and complete reporting of
clinical trial data.
? If a sponsor learns that a clinical investigator is significantly deficient in any
area, it will either work with the
investigator to obtain compliance or discontinue the investigator’s participation in
the study, and notify the relevant
authorities as required.

h. Privacy and Confidentiality of Medical Information. Sponsors respect the privacy
rights of research participants and safeguard the confidentiality of their medical
information in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations.

Clinical investigators and institutions should not be compensated in company stock
or stock options for work performed on individual clinical trials.

Availability of clinical trial results in a timely manner is often critical to
communicate important new information
to the medical profession, patients and the public.

We design and conduct clinical trials in an ethical and scientifically rigorous
manner to determine the benefits, risks, and value of pharmaceutical products. As
sponsors, we are responsible for receipt and verification of data from all research
sites for the studies we conduct; we ensure the accuracy and integrity of the entire
study database, which is owned by the sponsor.
a. Communication of Study Results. Clinical trials may involve already marketed
products and/or investigational
products. We commit to timely communication of meaningful results of controlled
clinical trials of marketed products or investigational products that are approved
for marketing, regardless of outcome. Communication includes publication of a paper
in a peer-reviewed medical journal, abstract submission with a poster or oral
presentation at a scientific meeting, or making results public by some other means.

Some studies that sponsors conduct are of an exploratory nature (early-phase or
post-marketing). These are
often highly proprietary to the sponsoring company,and due to their limited
statistical power, serve primarily
to generate hypotheses for possible future trials.

Sponsors do not commit to publish the results of every exploratory study performed,
or to make the designs of
clinical trial protocols available publicly at inception, as in a clinical trials
registry. If the information from an
exploratory study is felt to be of significant medical importance, sponsors should
work with the investigators
to submit the data for publication.

In all cases, the study results should be reported in an objective, accurate,
balanced and complete manner, with a discussion of the strengths and limitations of
the study.

c. Related Publications. For a multi-site clinical trial, analyses based on
single-site data usually have significant statistical
limitations, and frequently do not provide meaningful information for health care
professionals or patients and therefore
may not be supported by sponsors. Such reports should not precede and should always
reference the primary presentation or
paper of the entire study.

d. Investigator Access to Data and Review of Results.

As owners of the study database, sponsors have discretion to determine who will have
access to the database.
Generally, study databases are only made available to regulatory authorities.
Individual investigators in multi-site clinical
trials will have their own research participants’ data, and will be provided the
randomization code after conclusion of the trial.
Sponsors will make a summary of the study results available to the investigators. In
addition any investigator who participated in the conduct of a multi-site clinical
trial will be able to review relevant statistical tables, figures, and reports for
the entire study at the sponsor’s facilities, or other mutually agreeable location.

g. Provision of Clinical Trial Protocol for Journal Review.
If requested by a medical journal when reviewing a submitted manuscript for
publication, the clinical trial sponsor
will provide a synopsis of the clinical trial protocol and/or pre-specified plan for
data analysis with the understanding
that such documents are confidential and should be returned to the sponsor.

Are there ever times when it would not be appropriate to publish results from a
hypothesis-testing clinical trial?

There are some situations where publication of results from a hypothesis-testing
clinical trial would not be appropriate, and
which have nothing to do with whether the study is “positive” or “negative” with
regard to the performance of the sponsor’s product.

Examples are provided below.
1. Studies occur in which the data are found to be invalid. There is an implicit
assumption that the data collected in a clinical trial will be “valid,” but
sometimes this turns out not to be the case.

For example, there might be an erroneous laboratory assay or equipment malfunction,
or disruption of study sample shipment
rendering test data using these samples unreliable. Publication of results based on
invalid data is inappropriate as
it could adversely affect physician and patient decisions (invalid results could
appear positive for the product or intervention, for
example). However, sponsors want to be clear that valid results which do not support
the hypothesis being tested, or which are
contrary to the sponsor’s preferred outcome, should be published, because they are
meaningful. In other words, negative
results do not mean invalid results.

2. A study may not answer the question(s) for which it was designed.
For instance, a study may be ended prematurely and the amount of data gathered is
insufficient to draw conclusions
(e.g., when preclinical data become available after a trial has been initiated and
the sponsor must terminate the trial well
before its planned conclusion). This is an example of a “failed” clinical trial.
Frequently these types of studies are not accepted
for publication by medical journal editors, but the sponsor should review the data
with the study investigators to determine
whether they warrant submission for publication or are otherwise meaningful.

The Principles refer to “communication” of trial results, either by publication in a
peer-reviewed journal, presentation
at a medical meeting, or making results public by some other means.

Why don’t the Principles just say that sponsors commit to publish all clinical trial
results in
peer-reviewed medical journals?
While publication of study results in a peer-reviewed medical journal (such as the
New England Jounal of Medicine, JAMA or Lancet) is the preferred method of
communication, this is not always possible.
These journals are independent and, with the assistance of recognized experts in the
relevant fields (peer reviewers), make their own determination about what to
publish, and when. Some medical journals accept less than 10% of the manuscripts
submitted to them.
Manuscripts may be rejected for a variety of reasons, including lack of interest,
lack of novelty, or inconclusive results.
Consequently, the Principles provide some alternatives for the communication of
clinical trial results. For instance, clinical trial
data can be made public through presentation of the results at a professional
scientific meeting, which involves oral presentations

During the clinical trial, sponsors are obligated to record and evaluate all safety
information they receive from investigators or from any other source. If a sponsor
receives adverse event information that suggests a potential significant safety
concern for the sponsored trial, the sponsor must notify all investigators in the
trial and the health authorities in an expedited fashion. For example, in the U.S.
and some other countries, sponsors must report unexpected serious adverse events
within 15 days, and life-threatening adverse events within 7 days.
J - 03 Mar 2005 09:57 GMT
> http://www.phrma.org/publications/publications/2004-06-30.1035.pdf (excerpts)
> This document is effective from October 1, 2002.
>
> Clinical investigators and institutions should not be compensated in company stock
> or stock options for work performed on individual clinical trials.

Under these principles, may a clinical investigator who owns stock in Company A be
employed to
conduct a clinical trial sponsored by Company A?
Yes. Ownership of stock in the sponsoring company does not disqualify the investigator
from participating in clinical research for the company. However, sponsors may not
compensate investigators with stock or stock options for work performed on individual
clinical trials. Under the laws and regulations of some countries, stock ownership by
investigators may need to be disclosed to regulatory authorities.
eveline - 05 Mar 2005 20:39 GMT
> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced cancer
> who try experimental treatments are helped more than previously thought,
> according to a comprehensive look at government-sponsered tests over a
> decade.
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7067692

In the above studies, in 3% the cancers disappeared, 8% had substantial
shrinkage, 34% had some shrinkage or stabilized.
14% had at least one serious side effect.
From my reading it seems overall 11% were helped and in some cases 27% were
better off.
Each person would need to evaluate their circumstance and make an informed
decision - after asking losts of questions.  This would be after trying
other recommended treatments, without adequated results, I would think.

My spouse was in a drug trial for acute asthma that periodicly accelerated
to status asthmaticus - a very dangerous scenario.  He was in acute distress
during the trial, as he seemed to get the placebo.  The drug he received
after the early phase of the trial ended really made the difference and he
was soon free of the intense attacks.

I would think in the cancer trials, you would want to be sure to receive the
drug - not the placebo.  I tried to get him into an Alzheimer trial but he
was not accepted as his case was too advanced.  BUT he would have wanted to
try it. I would not have insisted he do a trial  - nor would I have tried to
talk him out of participating.

Those who participate help research and further generations,  and many
times - themselves.  That's how progress is made. Some are more altruistic
than others and feel participating will bring some good from having  this
bad illness.....helping future generations.

Some choose not to go further - have had enough - and that should be their
choice without pressure from anyone..

The decisions need to be made by each individual, with all pertinent
information at their disposal.

Me........... I don't know what I would do.  I would have to be faced with
all the bad news and drug facts to come up with an answer.  I would make the
decision myself, though.

eveline
J - 05 Mar 2005 23:57 GMT
> I would think in the cancer trials, you would want to be sure to receive the
> drug - not the placebo.

Most Phase III and adjuvant trials are randomized.
You don't get to choose.
http://www.cancerguide.org/trials_phase3.htm
J
Steph - 05 Mar 2005 23:58 GMT
>> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced
> cancer
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> the
> drug - not the placebo.

That's entirely wrong.
The whole point of a placebo controlled trial is that it isn't known whether
the new therapy is better (or worse) than placebo.
eveline - 06 Mar 2005 01:40 GMT
> >> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced
> > cancer
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> The whole point of a placebo controlled trial is that it isn't known whether
> the new therapy is better (or worse) than placebo.

Well I am not an expert and don't claim to be, but my research indicates
that because of ethical concerns, only a few trials use no treatment
placebos.

Some trials have equally plausable treatments so have no control arm.
It would be unethical not to be using some treatment.  The patient should
know up front if they might be the one getting a no treatment placebo.
That's the reason the patient should ask questions.

There are usually two arms of treatment with the new drug as one arm and a
conventional treatment as the other.  Some trials use two new drugs.  One
with more potency and maybe more side effects than the other.

Some trials have several arms of treatment.
That leaves the patient with more guessing about what drug they might get.
I am just saying the patient should ask questions and be informed and then
decide for themselves .

I have a lot of concerns here.  Another daughter is being tested for
endometrial cancer.

eveline
Steph - 06 Mar 2005 02:10 GMT
>> >> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced
>> > cancer
[quoted text clipped - 57 lines]
>
> eveline

The whole point of randomised double blind trials is that any bias is
minimised. If either the patients or researchers know who is getting what,
the trial is flawed.
In any trial, if one arm is known to be better than the other(s) the trial
would not be allowed by an ethics committee.
eveline - 06 Mar 2005 02:31 GMT
> >> >> participation in cancer trials offers benefits.  People with advanced
> >> > cancer
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> In any trial, if one arm is known to be better than the other(s) the trial
> would not be allowed by an ethics committee.
<<<<<<<
I realize most are randomized and double blind trials with USUALLY some type
of control arm, but doctors can differ about which drug is the best or more
effective.
As long as the choice of the better one is uncertain, there is no ethics
problem.

The patient can't know what drug he/she  is put on, as that would invalidate
the results.
However he or she has the right to know the selection of drugs offered and
their merit.
As the patient will be getting one of those. I would want to know the
selection.

Thanks for your input.
eveline
Steph - 06 Mar 2005 05:39 GMT
> <<<<<<<
> I realize most are randomized and double blind trials with USUALLY some
> type
> of control arm, but doctors can differ about which drug is the best or
> more
> effective.

But the trial is passed by an ethics committee, not and enthusiastic
researcher

> As long as the choice of the better one is uncertain, there is no ethics
> problem.

True

> The patient can't know what drug he/she  is put on, as that would
> invalidate
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> As the patient will be getting one of those. I would want to know the
> selection.

You just agreed that would invalidate the trial.............

> Thanks for your input.
> eveline
bj - 06 Mar 2005 15:42 GMT
I don't know if this is what the OP meant, but I would at least want to know
what the entire menu had, even if I didn't know which choice I got.
bj

>> The patient can't know what drug he/she  is put on, as that would
>> invalidate the results.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You just agreed that would invalidate the trial.............
eveline - 06 Mar 2005 16:04 GMT
> > <<<<<<<
> > I realize most are randomized and double blind trials with USUALLY some
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> >>>>>>
>Absolutely not!!
Faced with a cancer that has been treated with the usual treatment without
success, this patient is looking at trials for help.
In order to agree to enter this trial the patient or their advocate needs to
know what type medicines have been selected for each trial to allow them to
make an educated decision. It will help them decide to which trial they
prefer to apply....or not.
Each trial will have a different drug or drugs.
Some may offer two new drugs, or one new one and the conventional treatment
as a control arm ...or other set-ups. The patient has a right to know that
scenario.

If it was my body, I would want to know the merits of all the drugs being
used in the trial, since I would not know which one I might happen to get.
What's wrong with that?Knowing  all the drugs that were going to be used and
their merits would not invalidate the trial.  The patient would still not
know which one that would be used for them.
Doctors and trial clinitions are not Gods and each patient needs to be fully
informed and make educated decisions for their own best welfare.

Clinical trials are important endeavors but each patient has value and
worth.
Steph - 06 Mar 2005 17:04 GMT
>> > <<<<<<<
>> > I realize most are randomized and double blind trials with USUALLY some
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> fully
> informed and make educated decisions for their own best welfare.

When did I disagree with that? Or is tha a strawman argument?

> Clinical trials are important endeavors but each patient has value and
> worth.

When did I disagree with that?
And of course all patients in trials need to understand the trial design,
and the treatment being used. That's "informed consent" which is at the
ethical root of all trials (and all treatment).
But the point is not that you wanted to understand the trial, but that you
wanted to determine which treatment arm to be in. In a double blind
randomised trial, that's not going to happen, for the reasons we've
discussed.

Now give over with the "clinicians are not gods" attacks
eveline - 06 Mar 2005 18:18 GMT
> >> > <<<<<<<
> >> > I realize most are randomized and double blind trials with USUALLY some
[quoted text clipped - 59 lines]
> But the point is not that you wanted to understand the trial, but that you
> wanted to determine which treatment arm to be in.
,,,,,,
Steph, What you just wrote is an absolute untruth.!! Never did I say that I
wanted to determine what treatment arm to be in~!!!!  I want the patient
instead to be able to select a trial that has no "no treatment placebos"
included or drugs they would prefer not to try.

> Now give over with the "clinicians are not gods" attacks
........
Steph, I am a nurse and have worked with many doctors.  Many with good
intentions but none infallible.  Just stating the facts - not an attack.
Instead I feel I am being attacked for suggesting the patient be informed,
and mentioning the benefits of chemotherapy instead of the treatment you are
involved in giving.

Your trying to find fault with my reasoning will not change the basic facts.
Twisting my words will not make the twisted version true.
eveline
Steph - 06 Mar 2005 18:52 GMT
> ........
> Steph, I am a nurse and have worked with many doctors.  Many with good
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Twisting my words will not make the twisted version true.
> eveline

I hear an axe grinding
eveline - 06 Mar 2005 19:20 GMT
> > ........
> > Steph, I am a nurse and have worked with many doctors.  Many with good
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I hear an axe grinding

Steph, You might know better than me about axes, for I am retired, and only
concerned about my many family members who have cancer and more broadly
about patient issues in general.  Having been a nurse and 'patient advocate'
for many years, it is hard not to have concerns in that arena.  I am still
working on the theme and premise that doctors, nurses and other health
professionals have used as a guideline for many years.  FIRST DO NO HARM and
that can also mean trying to see patients are not discouraged from getting
any treatment that might help. I have no ax to grind, except the one I use
in my wooded acreage to split wood for my fireplace.
 
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