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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2004

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AndroGel and PSA

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smoke11 - 30 Jan 2004 22:46 GMT
Several years ago my doctor started me on AndroGel. There were good
reasons for this. The testosterone made a huge difference in life and I have
no
regrets about it. I think.

My PSA level was 2.7 about two years ago. A recent test put my PSA at
4.6, so now I'm scheduled for a prostate biopsy. There are no
symptoms, no enlargement, and the doctor says he can't detect
anything. The only evidence of a problem is the PSA. I'm 49.

I am curious about whether other Angrogel users on this list have
seen elevated PSA readings. Androgel says it has seen an  incidence of 1.5%
of elevated, above 4, PSA levels but no problems.

One other question -- the decision to have the biopsy was based on one PSA
test. I asked the doctor whether a second test is needed to confirm the
results, but he didn't think that was necessary, especially since there was
no enlargement or lump.

Do people typically have one or two PSA tests before a biopsy decision is
made?

Cheers.
olfart - 30 Jan 2004 23:18 GMT
> Several years ago my doctor started me on AndroGel. There were good
> reasons for this. The testosterone made a huge difference in life and I have
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Cheers.

I started taking Androgel about 11/2 yrs ago. At that time I had a PSA of
3.7. On my yearly checkup my PSA was 4.6. I stopped the Androgel and my PSA
was 4.8 a month later. I have had consults with a Uro, an Onc and a Rad Onc
and have asked them all the same question. Their answers were all the there
is such a small amount of Testosterone in Androgel that it does not affect
the PSA readings.
A second PSA test might be a good idea, but my feeling are that you should
go ahead with the biopsy with or without it. Whatever it takes to make an
early assessment of your condition is in your best interests. It's easier to
blow out a match than to put out a forest fire - id you get my drift.
Good Luck and welcome to the group. Keep us up to date - we care.
Age - 67
8/12/02 - PSA 3.7
10/13/03 - PSA 4.69
11/11/03 - PSA 4.8
11/18/03 - Biopsy - 10 cores
one core-25% of core-Gleason 4+4=8
all other cores benign tissue
12/10/03 - Consult - Oncologist
12/16/03 - Consult - Radiation Oncologist
Treatment Plan -
HT - started 12/17/03 - Eulixen & Lupron
Radiation - IMRT to begin 3/14/04 - for 5 weeks
Theraseed implant after Radiation completed
Steve Kramer - 31 Jan 2004 01:39 GMT
I dont' know what AndroGel is, but at 49, when you go from 2.7 to 4.6, the
next step is usually a biopsy.  Do not fret it.  Most don't even feel it and
those who do have not lasting problems from it.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

> Several years ago my doctor started me on AndroGel. There were good
> reasons for this. The testosterone made a huge difference in life and I have
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Cheers.
MH - 31 Jan 2004 01:54 GMT
I was prescribed Androgel to raise low Testosterone levels about three years
ago.  The Androgel didn't work to raise the T levels, and I was eventually
started on shots.  My PSA had always been in the 1.5 to 2.5 range, which the
doctor told me was *normal*.  After several months of taking the shots, I
felt better than I have *ever* felt in my life.  Having normal testosterone
levels was incredible.  But after about 6 months when I went for a checkup
with my endocrinologist, he had my PSA checked.... and it was 5.3.  He
referred me to my urologist.  He put me on a round of antibiotics for three
weeks... then did another test.  The PSA was then 5.1.  I was sent for a
biopsy.  The doctor took 6 cores... and none showed cancer.  I stopped
taking the Testosterone shots at that point, even though the doctor said it
would be okay to continue.  I spent the next year on antibiotics off and
on... with PSA fluctuating up and down... In September of 2002, another
urologist did my second biopsy.... he took 12 cores... only one showed a
small sign of PCa.  After my surgery in November, the final pathology showed
the PCa was all organ-confined... but there were traces of cancer in six or
seven different places in the prostate.

Did the Androgel and subsequent Testosterone injections cause my PCa??  I'll
never know the certain answer to that question.  What I suspect is that it
was there all along... PCa is slow-growing... and that the testosterone may
have *awakened* it.  Perhaps, in a sense, it could have saved my life by
making the cancer detectable much sooner than it would have been otherwise.
All of these are mere suppositions.  I know I had prostatitis issues for a
long time.. off and on.... and BPH.  At one point my PSA was up to 13.9 ...
at the time of surgery, it was 8.1.  I'll never know how much of that rise
was due to the PCa and how much was affected by the prostatitis.

I would suggest you get the biopsy..... and insist the the doctor take at
least 10 to 12 core samples when it is done!  The more samples, the more
probable the doctor will find any cancer cells that may be there.   On the
other hand, don't panic...  because an elevated PSA does not necessarily
mean there is cancer.  It could be due to your prostatitis or BPH.

I wish you well... please keep us posted!

MikeH

> Several years ago my doctor started me on AndroGel. There were good
> reasons for this. The testosterone made a huge difference in life and I have
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Cheers.
TampaSailor - 05 Feb 2004 15:53 GMT
I was on the testosterone patch for a year as my levels were low.
The patch gave me a rash so I switched to depostest injections.
Two years later my psa went from normal on an annual to 6.7
A 12 core biop showed PCa in one core at 5 pct
Surgons want to cut, Rads want to rad and Cyro's want to freeze
and they all are against each other. I am leaning towards robotic surgery
but have one more consult before I decide.

I too wonder what part the testosterone played.
I stopped taking it as soon as the doc told me about the psa.
I miss it!
I dont feel as good.
I am losing some hair that the depotest gave me back two years ago.
Energy level has dropped.
Feeling a bit depressed... lazy... losing some muscle and exchanging
it for some spare tire fat.

I think after the surgery I can take the testosterone again.
Any comments appreciated.

When you do the biop, have them knock you out.
A 12 core is no problem then.
Otherwise I think you will have a miserable time of it.

I would like to question anyone who has had robotic rad surgery!

cheers, ly

>I was prescribed Androgel to raise low Testosterone levels about three years
>ago.  The Androgel didn't work to raise the T levels, and I was eventually
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>>
>> Cheers.
MH - 05 Feb 2004 20:54 GMT
Hi, ly..
My urologist did the LRP without the robotics, so I can't help with any
first-person info on that one.  Perhaps someone else here had surgery in
which the robotic procedure was used.  I don't *think* Krongrad uses the
robotics.
Have you visited his site for info about the LRP?  www.krongrad-urology.com
?

Good luck to you as you make your decision.  How old are you?  What was your
Gleason Score?  Staging?

Take care,
MikeH

> I was on the testosterone patch for a year as my levels were low.
> The patch gave me a rash so I switched to depostest injections.
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
> >>
> >> Cheers.
TampaSailor - 08 Feb 2004 22:26 GMT
>Good luck to you as you make your decision.  How old are you?  What was your
>Gleason Score?  Staging?
>
>Take care,
>MikeH

age 59
gleason 3+3
T1c

I have 2nd opinion consult at Moffitt Cancer Center end this
month.  Still thinking daVinci and looking for a doc with
experience. My urologist's partner does it but had a patient
die by accidental cut of blood vessel so I have lost confidence.
He was using daVinci

Here is the story:

TAMPA -- Questions surrounding the death of teacher Al Greenway during kidney
removal surgery last month will not go unanswered, a lawyer said Monday.

Steve Yerrid, retained by the Greenway family, said it was time the family was
allowed to know why the surgery went wrong.

"We are not willing to settle for less than the whole truth," Yerrid said at a
news conference at his Tampa office.

A popular Plant High biology teacher, Greenway, 53, died Oct. 13 at St.
Joseph's Hospital, two days after a surgeon used the robotic da Vinci Surgical
System to remove a cancerous kidney. During the surgery, two blood vessels,
including the aorta, were severed. The problem wasn't noticed for about 90
minutes.

Hospital officials announced the cause of Greenway's death at a news
conference last week. The next day, lawyer Joseph Diaco confirmed that his
client, urologist Tod J. Fusia, had performed the surgery and that Fusia
wanted to convey his sympathies to the family.

Greenway's family, who was at Monday's news conference but did not comment,
has not filed a lawsuit. Yerrid said the case was not about money, although he
did not rule out filing a suit.

Yerrid did not want to talk about specifics of the surgery and the aftermath.
He said the case went beyond medical malpractice and raised a number of
questions about when the family was told about what went wrong, and exactly
what they were told about the surgery.

As family members of patients, "we expect to know the truth and know the truth
when it occurs," he said.

Yerrid added that the surgeon originally scheduled to perform the surgery the
day before was not on Greenway's insurance program. The next day, the
Greenways were "directed" toward Fusia, Yerrid said.

"This says something about a system in which families are forced away from
their doctors of choice," he said.

Robot systems allow a surgeon to enter a patient's abdomen through several
small incisions, not one large opening. A long tube with a miniature video
camera at the tip is inserted into one of the incisions to allow the surgeon
to look around.

With the help of long tubes, the surgeon slides rods into the incisions that
have scalpels, scissors or other surgical tools at the end. The surgeon then
uses handles to manipulate the tools to perform the operation.

An evaluation of the robot that helped assist with Greenway's kidney removal
determined that it operated properly. Yerrid said he would be looking into the
protocols and training needed for using new technologies in the operating
room.

A spokeswoman for Intuitive Surgical Inc., which makes the robot, said last
week that the robot did not make the cut that led to Greenway's death. The
surgeon had moved to the patient and was using nonrobotic surgical techniques
when the vessels were cut, she said.

Yerrid said the family thought Fusia, who had used the robot about 10 times in
kidney removal procedures, had more experience with the surgery. They were
surprised he is still allowed to perform surgeries at the hospital while a
state investigation is ongoing, Yerrid said.

"We will be looking at everything that went on," Yerrid said.
............................................

       Posted on Sun, Dec. 21, 2003            
Jury finds Tampa surgeon negligent
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

TAMPA - A doctor named in a lawsuit over a deadly surgery involving a robotic
arm has been found guilty of negligence in a lawsuit stemming from another,
unrelated death.

Dr. Tod Fusia, a urologist who works at St. Joseph's Hospital, was on trial in
a case involving the death of patient Terry Tapp, said Peter Brudny, an
attorney for Tapp's family.

On Friday, the jury awarded $765,000 to Tapp's wife and daughter.

"I feel like justice has been very satisfied," said Shirley Tapp, Terry Tapp's
widow.

Terry Tapp was operated on twice by Fusia, according to Brudny. In the first
procedure to remove a kidney stone, Tapp's urinary tract was perforated and
allowed urine to leak into the man's abdomen. Three weeks after a second
surgery was performed, Tapp died when a blood clot entered his lung, Brudny
said.

"The jury found that (Fusia) was dishonest in what he told his patient,"
Brudny said.

Fusia's attorney, Joseph Diaco, did not return a telephone message left
Saturday at his office seeking comment.

Fusia was named, but not sued, in a separate lawsuit filed earlier this month
alleging he was not adequately trained to perform surgery using a robotic
device. In that case, Al Greenway died Oct. 13, 2002, after kidney surgery.

Greenway's widow is suing St. Joseph's Hospital, saying it is at fault for her
husband's death.

Brenda Greenway says hospital administrators allowed Fusia and another doctor,
both inexperienced with the $1 million robot, to perform her husband's
surgery, which was to remove a cancerous kidney.

Attorney Steven Yerrid, who represents Brenda Greenway, said the doctors were
not sued after their conduct had been "addressed."

According to Florida Department of Health records, Fusia and the other surgeon
paid $1 million in September to settle a claim for an unspecified incident
that occurred Oct. 11, 2002, the day of Greenway's surgery.
................................

During Greenway's surgery, Dr. Tod Fusia sat at a console about 10 feet from
the operating table using sophisticated control sticks to manipulate the da
Vinci Surgical Systems robot, a machine with three arms that look like they
belong to a six-foot-tall insect.

Robots including the da Vinci are considered a major surgical breakthrough
over traditional methods as they can perform very fine movements in tight
spaces without damaging surrounding tissue as much.

The lawsuit alleges that Fusia's experience with the device was limited to a
pig, a cadaver, three kidney removals and a complicated prostate surgery that
left a man incontinent.
......................................

A postoperative X-ray revealed that an absorbent pad had been left inside
Greenway's body that forced the surgeons to reopen the site to retrieve it,
according to the lawsuit. A needle was also missing and never accounted for,
the suit stated.

After the surgery, Greenway began showing signs of distress, according to the
suit. A nurse tried to find a surgeon to assist in his treatment, but her
requests went unfulfilled for more than two hours, the suit stated.

Mrs. Greenway's wife was informed that one of her husband's blood vessels was
"nicked," but that he was "fine," according to the lawsuit. She was not told
of the severity of the injuries, even as blood seeped from her husband's nose,
ears and mouth, the suit stated.

Greenway died the next day.

The lawsuit contends that Fusia and the assistant surgeon were ill-trained in
the use of the robot.

Fusia had attended a three-day certification course during which he did not
perform a robotic organ removal, the lawsuit stated. After he gained
certification, Fusia had performed only three robotic organ removals,
according to the lawsuit.

And during a surgery performed about a week before Greenway's, problems arose
that forced Fusia and the other surgeon to abandon the robot for more
traditional methods.
........................

ly

>Hi, ly..
>My urologist did the LRP without the robotics, so I can't help with any
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>> >>
>> >> Cheers.
MH - 08 Feb 2004 23:48 GMT
> >Good luck to you as you make your decision.  How old are you?  What was your
> >Gleason Score?  Staging?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Here is the story:

Hi, ly...
I don't blame you for losing confidence in this particular doc, in view of
the article you included.  It sounds like an unfortunate tragedy.  Of
course, with any surgery there is risk.  I hope you will find someone more
to your liking ... with whom you can feel comfortable.  I talked to two
urologists... and decided on the second.  I knew as soon as I met him that
he was the one for me.  I don't regret my decision.

Take care!  Keep us posted!

MikeH
Steve Kramer - 09 Feb 2004 00:58 GMT
> >Good luck to you as you make your decision.  How old are you?  What was your
> >Gleason Score?  Staging?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> die by accidental cut of blood vessel so I have lost confidence.
> He was using daVinci

That is exactly the person I would pick.  I hate getting into a car with
someone who says he's never had an accident in his life.  You really need to
have an accident to understand just how quickly it can happen and to realize
just how careful you have to be.  I'd much sooner go under the knife of a
surgeon who make a mistake and is thinking, "that will never happen again as
long as I live."
Steve Kramer - 05 Feb 2004 22:29 GMT
> I too wonder what part the testosterone played.

> I think after the surgery I can take the testosterone again.
> Any comments appreciated.

Knowing absolutely nothing about it, I'd say these two statements are
incongruous.  If it were me, I think I'd research to see if one might leaad
to the other.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

TampaSailor - 08 Feb 2004 22:29 GMT
Apparently the prostate needs testosterone to grow.
If the prostate is "gone" then there is nothing to grow.
Thats the way I see it now anyway.  I will ask the Center
on Feb 23........ly

>> I too wonder what part the testosterone played.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>incongruous.  If it were me, I think I'd research to see if one might leaad
>to the other.
Larry Wheat - 10 Feb 2004 01:29 GMT
> I would like to question anyone who has had robotic rad surgery!
>
> cheers, ly

Ly:

   I had a laparoscopic RP by a doc driving a daVinci robot last
October --- I'll try to answer your questions.

Larry  
 
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