Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2004

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Implant??

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
MH - 31 Jan 2004 02:35 GMT
Has anyone here had an implant for erectile dysfunction?  I don't remember
anyone mentioning it, but just wondered.

MikeH
John Loomis - 31 Jan 2004 03:18 GMT
Yep...dont go that route.   Once done that is it......!
Do you try injection, viagra, and what year is your surgery compared to your
inability?
In other words, it took me 2 years to get good again.   Are you there yet?

> Has anyone here had an implant for erectile dysfunction?  I don't remember
> anyone mentioning it, but just wondered.
>
> MikeH
MH - 31 Jan 2004 14:12 GMT
> Yep...dont go that route.   Once done that is it......!
> Do you try injection, viagra, and what year is your surgery compared to your
> inability?
> In other words, it took me 2 years to get good again.   Are you there yet?

Yes, Viagra, Cialis, Levitra... etc... pump....
I will be *there* before I make any decision whatsoever about the implant.
But at two years..... or three... if there is no improvement.... and I still
have this horrible Peyronie's that developped when I started using the
injections... What should I do, John????  You got yours back..... and I'm
glad for you.  But what about those of us who *don't* get it back??  I know
that there's no going backward from an implant.  But I know, too, that at 53
years of age I don't want to spend the rest of my life with a painful *bent*
erection.   I will be two years in November.  If I get to that point with no
function, I'll *consider* the options.  But having an implant would just be
*one more hurdle* to jump, it seems.... at least for me.  Just wanted to
talk with other guys who had *had* one... to see if they were happy with the
results or not.

Take care... and enjoy your erectile function.  Not all of us are so lucky!!

MikeH
Steve Kramer - 31 Jan 2004 10:49 GMT
Mike,

There was one.  He last posted at least a year ago.  I wish I could remember
his address.  He was extremely happy with it.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

> Has anyone here had an implant for erectile dysfunction?  I don't remember
> anyone mentioning it, but just wondered.
>
> MikeH
MH - 31 Jan 2004 14:07 GMT
> Mike,
>
> There was one.  He last posted at least a year ago.  I wish I could remember
> his address.  He was extremely happy with it.

Thanks, Steve....
I'm sure a year ago I was so immersed in my recovery I wasn't even noticing
implant discussions.  It has been 15 months since my surgery.  I've tried
Viagra, Levitra, Cialis... all with little to no help.  I have used a pump,
which I hate.  I used injections..... then developped the Peyronie's.  The
last uro I saw said the only solution to both my Peyronie's and the ED would
be an implant, but that he would not recommend it for at least another year.
I have run across a few guys on other lists.... ALL have been very pleased
with their implants.  Still, it would be a *big* psychological hurdle to
cross.  And it's not something that is imminent for me.  I was just fishing
around to see if anyone here on the Newsgroup had gone that route.....or
considered it.   I don't know what I will do at some future point.  I'm not
ruling it out entirely.  I'd much rather have my own erections.  But... if
they are all deformed by the Peyronie's... and painful/uncomfortable...
there is really no point.  And this Peyronie's plaque is something I can
feel very clearly... and the uro said that he can't do anything for it
because of where it is located.... It's not going to just go away on its
own, as PD does in some cases.

Anywho.... was just asking.  Thanks for the response.

Have a good one!
MikeH
Steve Kramer - 31 Jan 2004 21:01 GMT
For a short period, it was discussed heavily on the NG.  You can watch an
implant operation, btw, at www. Phoenix5.com.  The end consensus (though
John Loomis seems to disagree) was that implant is the gold standard, but
due to irreversibility and bodily invasion, the last resort.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

>
> > Mike,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Have a good one!
> MikeH
Dave Perry - 02 Feb 2004 03:52 GMT
My wife was a volunteer for many years at a VA hospital and she saw
quite a few of the early implants (pre-1990) and noted that there were
numerous unpleasant side effects up to and including gangrene (ouch!).
No doubt there have been improvements in technique since then but the
thought of major surgery for me yet again with my track record of
being susceptible to side effects (still incontinent and with ED and
hell I was one of the 2% with side effects from a vasectomy 30 years
ago), I think I will opt for something else besides the implant.  I
know there are lots of guys happy with theirs but I will let the
doctors practice medicine on someone else.
Dave Perry    

> Thanks, Steve....
> I'm sure a year ago I was so immersed in my recovery I wasn't even noticing
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Have a good one!
> MikeH
MH - 02 Feb 2004 13:02 GMT
I can understand your hesitation, Dave.  And I'm not sure it's something I
will eventually decide to do or not.  I have a while yet before I even think
about it.  But I have come across several men on the Net who have them...
and have been *extremely* pleased!

Take care....
MikeH

> My wife was a volunteer for many years at a VA hospital and she saw
> quite a few of the early implants (pre-1990) and noted that there were
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> doctors practice medicine on someone else.
> Dave Perry
Junior Edens - 03 Feb 2004 19:44 GMT
I had an implant 9-8-2003, It was a three piece
AMS 700 Series.
It made by the American Medical Systems.
I am 73 years old, I had RRP 10-10-2002.
I have been a diabetic for more then 20 years.
I also had pyrones, In my case it was a wise
move.
I tried the shots and the pills without any luck.
I am not sorry that I had the implant.
When you are 73 old a person just can't wait for
years hoping that nature will take care of things.
MH - 03 Feb 2004 21:07 GMT
Thanks for your reply, Junior....

Could you share with us a bit about the implant procedure?  I'm wondering
just how painful you would say it was?  How long it took to heal?  How long
before you could use it?  Does it feel *natural*??  Was this an out-patient
procedure or did you stay overnight in the hospital?

Take care...
MikeH

> I had an implant 9-8-2003, It was a three piece
> AMS 700 Series.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> When you are 73 old a person just can't wait for
> years hoping that nature will take care of things.
Junior Edens - 04 Feb 2004 12:23 GMT
MikeH,
It was an overnite stay, It took about a month to
heal.
For me sex is much better now.
Size is also larger, After surgery I was left with an very small penis.
Dr.Stephen Wilson from Ark. did the surgery.
He has done over 7,000 implants.
The peyrones is hard to live with.
The implant took care of that.
I would say use the implant as the last resort.
It isn't something everyone should have done.
MH - 04 Feb 2004 12:53 GMT
Thanks, Junior!!

MikeH

> MikeH,
> It was an overnite stay, It took about a month to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I would say use the implant as the last resort.
> It isn't something everyone should have done.
Beverley - 01 Feb 2004 15:03 GMT
We've had two or three posters with implants. Luke is who you were trying to
remember and I just sent the only known addy I had for Luke to Mike.
Bev

> Mike,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> > MikeH
MH - 01 Feb 2004 18:11 GMT
> We've had two or three posters with implants. Luke is who you were trying to
> remember and I just sent the only known addy I had for Luke to Mike.
> Bev

Thanks, Bev...

MikeH
Alan Meyer - 31 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT
> Has anyone here had an implant for erectile dysfunction?  I don't remember
> anyone mentioning it, but just wondered.

I wouldn't even consider it.  Here's why:

1. It's a significant surgery.

2. Your penis can never be the same if the implant is removed.

3. It does nothing for sexual sensations at all.  I'd worry that
the doctor could make that worse by the cutting and stuffing.

4. Who knows what problems you might have with it down
the road?  Think for example of problems women have with
breast implants - which are probably simpler.

I'd prefer sex without an erection.  And if my partner wanted
a dildo, I'd buy one (or several different ones) rather than build
one into my body.
Steve Kramer - 31 Jan 2004 21:15 GMT
Ah, yes.  But there are other factors.  For instance, what if the full six
inches and full rigidity are essential for sex with your partner?

> > Has anyone here had an implant for erectile dysfunction?  I don't remember
> > anyone mentioning it, but just wondered.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> a dildo, I'd buy one (or several different ones) rather than build
> one into my body.
Alan Meyer - 31 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT
I understand the difficulty.

I'm fortunate to have been blessed with a flexible and accommodating
partner.

> Ah, yes.  But there are other factors.  For instance, what if the full six
> inches and full rigidity are essential for sex with your partner?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> > a dildo, I'd buy one (or several different ones) rather than build
> > one into my body.
John Loomis - 31 Jan 2004 23:45 GMT
MH is having difficulty, and like most men prefer to have some normalcy back
in sex.
With one nerve spared, and 2 years later, things got connected for me.
Some men need differing aspects to help them through this turn of events.
The Implant has great rewards, and men and women do use that option!
so, it is easy to say what a person would do, and in their shoes, but let
that decision be made by the person in his shoes.
WE hope that everyone can come up with some satisfactory result after being
so compromised in such a demeaning way.
You are all my friends, and I try to help if I can!
John Loomis
> I understand the difficulty.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> > > a dildo, I'd buy one (or several different ones) rather than build
> > > one into my body.
MH - 01 Feb 2004 03:04 GMT
> > Has anyone here had an implant for erectile dysfunction?  I don't remember
> > anyone mentioning it, but just wondered.

> I'd prefer sex without an erection.  And if my partner wanted
> a dildo, I'd buy one (or several different ones) rather than build
> one into my body.

You are lucky to have a partner who wants sex...  Before surgery, I had been
going solo for quite a long time, except for the occasion every couple of
months when my wife would give in to my wishes.  Yes, I can still do that
without an erection.... but it's just not the same.  It never will be.  And
I have to just accept that and move on to a life without it.

Thanks for your input, Alan... I appreciate *all* opinions....

Take care,
MikeH
Steve Kramer - 01 Feb 2004 17:12 GMT
> You are lucky to have a partner who wants sex...  Before surgery, I had been
> going solo for quite a long time, except for the occasion every couple of
> months when my wife would give in to my wishes.  Yes, I can still do that
> without an erection.... but it's just not the same.

My problem, too.  An unwilling wife made Lupron a moot point.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

MH - 01 Feb 2004 18:02 GMT
> > You are lucky to have a partner who wants sex...  Before surgery, I had
> been
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> My problem, too.  An unwilling wife made Lupron a moot point.

It's great to feel wanted, isn't it, Steve?? :((

BTW, how are you feeling on the Lupron??  Having hot flashes or anything
like that?  Are you getting more in touch with your feminine side? ;)

Take care, guy...
MikeH
Steve Kramer - 02 Feb 2004 10:38 GMT
> BTW, how are you feeling on the Lupron??  Having hot flashes or anything
> like that?  Are you getting more in touch with your feminine side? ;)

I think you are kidding about the feminine side, but just in case.....
There is nothing in Lupron (or even actual castration) that causes you to
become more feminine.  Oh, I thought it was a brain pill, but I don't
understand women anymore now than I did during the last millennium.

The only side effect I have is hot flashes.  And those are so mild that when
I realized what was going on, I was just wondering if someone had turned the
heat up a couple of degrees.  I haven't had a hot flash in the last two
weeks.

Maybe, just maybe, I have a slightly decreased mental acuity.  There are
times where just the right word will not come to the forefront when I'm
speaking or typing.  I know it's a possible side effect, but I can't
remember the term for it.

Otherwise, nothing much in my life has changed.  I work (more than 2400
hours during 2003), I walk, and it seems like every weekend I'm helping
someone in my family move furniture (I have the only truck).

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

MH - 02 Feb 2004 12:57 GMT
Yes, Steve, I was kidding about your feminine side!! ;)

But it sounds like the effects of the Lupron are not really so bad to live
with.

Now, if you could just trade that truck for the Harley!  :))

Take care,
MikeH

> > BTW, how are you feeling on the Lupron??  Having hot flashes or anything
> > like that?  Are you getting more in touch with your feminine side? ;)
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> hours during 2003), I walk, and it seems like every weekend I'm helping
> someone in my family move furniture (I have the only truck).
Steve Kramer - 02 Feb 2004 21:34 GMT
The effects of Lupron are not so bad for ME.  I don't claim anything else.
Iunderstand they can be almost debilitating.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

> Yes, Steve, I was kidding about your feminine side!! ;)
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> > hours during 2003), I walk, and it seems like every weekend I'm helping
> > someone in my family move furniture (I have the only truck).
c palmer - 02 Feb 2004 23:55 GMT
hi steve - having been down this road and seeing some of the effects on
how it affects the body and mind.  it was, well, works fail me right
now, but allow me to explain it.

my dad was one of those hard, stanch, lack of emotions, and never ever
cried.

i've seen him go through the woods on his golf cart and didn't see a
tree limb and got struck in the head by it, so hard, that white of his
eye turned totally blood red and his only comment that he said at the
time it happened was ," didn't hurt" and went about his business, never
giving it a second thought.  

while on lupron, i watched him to go from the above sentence to a man
who would be talking to a person (male or female) and would break down
in tears - and it wasn't brought on by an emotional moment.  he would
just start crying for no reason and still try to talk through the tears.
sure takes away from the meaning of what he trying to say.  as he stayed
on the lupron through the years, the incidents of crying spells
increased and his last year, but would burst into tears at least once in
a conversation.  

to see someone go from what you grew up with to someone you have having
to take care of like what i've described is a mind trip unto itself.

add to that, he hit a tree in a car accident 3 yrs before he died and it
put him on the fast track of alzhimer's and he was losing control on his
emotions even more.  

he would be sitting there in his wheel chair and break into a crying
spell.  

yeah, we talk about the cures,  we talk about the hormone treatments,
but we don't get down to the nitty gritty of just how terrible this can
get.  like you said, it can get debilitating.  

and i didn't even begin to cover the feelings from the hot flashes, the
growing of breasts, and the softness of the body.  

for a man who was always known for his muscle tone, i saw his body go
from that state to so soft, i said that he could sit in a square box,
and his body was so soft, would fill in the corners.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Steve Kramer - 03 Feb 2004 03:05 GMT
> hi steve - having been down this road and seeing some of the effects on
> how it affects the body and mind.  it was, well, works fail me right
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> time it happened was ," didn't hurt" and went about his business, never
> giving it a second thought.

Ha!  I once got out of the rear seat of a car by grabbing the center post
just as the driver was closing the front door.  I was almost standing when
the finger broke.  I saw my fingers through the glass from the outside and
calmly said, "that's going to hurt", while the driver was frantically
looking for the keys to unlock the door and free my hand.

I guess there is a possible side effect of raw emotions.  I wasn't thinking
about that with reference to getting in touch with my feminine side.  I
guess it's a side effect that I could still have down the road.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

JohnG - 03 Feb 2004 03:52 GMT
> Ha!  I once got out of the rear seat of a car by grabbing the center post
> just as the driver was closing the front door.  I was almost standing when
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> about that with reference to getting in touch with my feminine side.  I
> guess it's a side effect that I could still have down the road.

One thing I've learned through this PCa stuff is that my emotional
makeup isn't something entirely under my control.   In those months
after surgery when I was dealing with ED issues, I'd sometimes say to
myself, "I can't believe I'm reacting this way."  But I was.   I don't
know if that experience would make it easier or harder to deal with
Lupron-induced emotional states, if it should ever come to that.

Life is interesting, sometimes.

JohnG
Beverley - 06 Feb 2004 01:50 GMT
This is not an area that I have had to investigate but I know this and I
don't know if it applies but I think it would. Just my brain
wanderings.............

If you castrate a young male he never gets the deeper voice and stays
somewhat youthful in appearance, as in body shape, lack of body hair, beard,
and that sort of thing. But if you do it after puberty these patterns have
already be set in motion and therefore do not "backtrack". Historically
castration of male youths was common for various reason.

If you neuter your male cat while it is young it never develops some of the
"nasty" habits of marking territory, "humping" etc. But if you wait until it
is fully grown to neuter him it might cut some of it down but it won't stop
him. (Same goes for a dog.)

So with those things which are known why would someone surmise that a male
would take on feminine qualities just because a drug is "neutralizing" the
testosterone? It's not like getting estrogen shots. Once a man always a man
.............unless of course ....well, we won't go there - there's probably
another newsgroup for that. LOL
Bev

> > hi steve - having been down this road and seeing some of the effects on
> > how it affects the body and mind.  it was, well, works fail me right
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Ha!  I once got out of the rear seat of a car by grabbing the center post

> just as the driver was closing the front door.  I was almost standing when
> the finger broke.  I saw my fingers through the glass from the outside and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> about that with reference to getting in touch with my feminine side.  I
> guess it's a side effect that I could still have down the road.
Steve Kramer - 06 Feb 2004 11:37 GMT
The same way males learn how they are to react and continue to do that even
after the testes are removed, is, I suspect, the way people react to the
words 'hormone treatment'.  Though it never did turn anyone gay or feminine,
it did make men grow breasts and become more emotional.  Ergo, they must all
do that.

Signature

Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .3  .4  .8
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .3 .2  .2  .2 .3
Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48
HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48
PSA  .1
Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03

> This is not an area that I have had to investigate but I know this and I
> don't know if it applies but I think it would. Just my brain
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> > about that with reference to getting in touch with my feminine side.  I
> > guess it's a side effect that I could still have down the road.
olfart - 02 Feb 2004 15:10 GMT
> > BTW, how are you feeling on the Lupron??  Having hot flashes or anything
> > like that?  Are you getting more in touch with your feminine side? ;)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> heat up a couple of degrees.  I haven't had a hot flash in the last two
> weeks.

<snip>
Age may have something to do with the intensity of Lupron side effects. I'm
67 and into the second month of my first shot. The hot flashes get pretty
intense at times - mostly when tying to sleep - actually break a sweat
sometimes.. I had really bad insomnia the first few weeks which could have
been caused by the Eulixon which I took for 30 days - sleep much improved
now. The other side effect which is bothersome is increased
sensitivity(soreness) in the areas where I have arthritis. In general though
the side efects are very tolerable when you consider why I am taking Lupron.
And I haven't had a sudden urge to redecorate the inside of the house in
shocking pink (:>)
Age - 67
8/12/02 - PSA 3.7
10/13/03 - PSA 4.69
11/11/03 - PSA 4.8
11/18/03 - Biopsy - 10 cores
one core-25% of core-Gleason 4+4=8
all other cores benign tissue
12/10/03 - Consult - Oncologist
12/16/03 - Consult - Radiation Oncologist
Treatment Plan -
HT - started 12/17/03 - Eulixen & Lupron
Radiation - IMRT to begin 3/14/04 - for 5 weeks
Theraseed implant after Radiation completed
Gogarty - 03 Feb 2004 18:17 GMT
>My problem, too.  An unwilling wife made Lupron a moot point.

Seems to be a quite common problem. Since Viagra, Cialis, and Levitra don't
work unless the libido is aroused, they too are moot.

I certainly would not get an implant (did discuss with doctor who was quite
happy to do the job if I wished and who gave me a TV tape describing and
illustrating the whole thing in painful detail) unless I could exopect it to
get very regular workouts. But I have found four years after surgery that
nothing works like mutual libido, which is, Alas! a sometime thing.

What price domestic tranquility?
Steve Kramer - 03 Feb 2004 23:40 GMT
> I certainly would not get an implant (did discuss with doctor who was quite
> happy to do the job if I wished and who gave me a TV tape describing and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> What price domestic tranquility?

I think if I knew that it would work and that I was going to live for, say,
10 years, I'd do it.  I think the closeness is important for a marriage.
Even if it's her fault, it's probably worth it.
MH - 04 Feb 2004 00:46 GMT
> > I certainly would not get an implant (did discuss with doctor who was
> quite
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> 10 years, I'd do it.  I think the closeness is important for a marriage.
> Even if it's her fault, it's probably worth it.

So, Steve.... ten years from now, when you are still going strong (and I
fully expect you to be here with us, my friend!) ... are you going to wish
you had gone ahead and had that implant??
I, too, think the closeness is important for a marriage.  I wish there were
more physical closeness in mine... and I hear others saying the same things
at times.
On the other hand, lots of guys here seem to be really lucky in that
department.

Take care!
MikeH
Steve Kramer - 04 Feb 2004 01:26 GMT
> So, Steve.... ten years from now, when you are still going strong (and I
> fully expect you to be here with us, my friend!) ... are you going to wish
> you had gone ahead and had that implant??

If I'm to make it 10 years, then I have plenty of time to decide.  My first
goal is to make it two years on Lupron.  If I do that, my next is to make it
? or 1 year off Lupron without a rise in PSA.  If I do that, then I'll start
thinking implant.  By then I should know that Willie aint working or is
working.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.