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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2009

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Neual Graft

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Ron - 27 Jul 2009 00:41 GMT
Sorry for the crosspost but I initally posted to the wrong group.
A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with PC and was told that nerve
sparing was out of the question.
My question to the group is. Does anyone know if the neural grafts are
having any luck and if so which doctor is having the most success.
Thanks Ron
Alan Meyer - 27 Jul 2009 16:01 GMT
...
> A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with PC and was told
> that nerve sparing was out of the question.  My question to the
> group is. Does anyone know if the neural grafts are having any
> luck and if so which doctor is having the most success.

Here's a citation to a brief story by a guy whose graft was
successful - or at least that's what the story says.

 http://www.phoenix5.org/stories/firstpers/persNeuralGraft.html

The surgeon was the famous urologist Dr. Peter Scardino, who
would be a top choice for surgery even without the graft.  I
think he's in Chicago.

I found it by Googling.  A search on the following terms will get
hits:

    neural graft prostatectomy

Another option is radiation.  The outcomes regarding potency are
said to be about the same as for surgery.  However if the surgeon
has already ruled out nerve sparing surgery, impotence is
guaranteed.  Radiation has at least a chance of sparing potency.
The size of that chance depends on your friend's current age and
potency (older and less potent men have worse outcomes) and,
probably, on the skill of the radiation oncologist.  One rule of
thumb I was given is that radiation has about a 50% chance of
sparing potency.  I think that, with radiation, it's also less of
an all or nothing thing.

However I wouldn't chose radiation if I thought surgery had a
better chance of a cure.  The key thing is to beat the cancer.
Sex is only possible while you're alive!  For myself, I chose
radiation and I'm happy with the outcome.  But it's hard to say
which is better, and also hard to say which cases might benefit
most from which treatment.  The decision on surgery vs. radiation
is a very controversial one with strong partisans on each side.
Anecdotal stories of success or failure are a poor guide to which
treatment to choose.

Assuming your friend chooses surgery, he should know that the
nerves that are cut in a prostatectomy are the ones that enable
erections.  They're not the ones involved in sexual pleasure or
orgasm.  With a willing partner, sex is still possible and can
still be very satisfying even without potency.  There are also
other treatments like prostaglandin injections that can often
produce an erection in a man who otherwise couldn't have one.

Best of luck to him on beating the cancer and on coming out of it
in good shape.

    Alan
I.P. Freely - 27 Jul 2009 17:57 GMT
> if the surgeon
> has already ruled out nerve sparing surgery, impotence is
> guaranteed.  Radiation has at least a chance of sparing potency.

If the surgeon has ruled out nerve sparing surgery, I presume it's
because the nerve bundles are cancerous. If the nerve bundles are
cancerous, we dang well better HOPE they are removed or fried.

I.P.
Alan Meyer - 27 Jul 2009 21:17 GMT
>> if the surgeon
>> has already ruled out nerve sparing surgery, impotence is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> because the nerve bundles are cancerous. If the nerve bundles are
> cancerous, we dang well better HOPE they are removed or fried.

I don't know if it's true but I have read that nerves are
less susceptible to radiation damage than prostate cancer.
So it's possible that the nerves could recover even if they
get a significant dose of radiation - which I suspect they
do in most radiation treatments.

As I understand it, the main cause of impotence in radiation
treatment is damage to blood vessels.  That's why the damage
shows up later rather than sooner.  The blood vessels atrophy
gradually as a result of the damage they sustained.

It's a different kind of thing from impotence caused by
surgery.

If someone knows more about this, please speak up.

    Alan
I.P. Freely - 27 Jul 2009 22:27 GMT
>>> if the surgeon
>>> has already ruled out nerve sparing surgery, impotence is
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> get a significant dose of radiation - which I suspect they
> do in most radiation treatments.

But if the nerves recover, wouldn't/couldn't their cancer also recover?
De we WANT cancerous tissue to recover?

I.P.
Alan Meyer - 28 Jul 2009 00:38 GMT
...
> But if the nerves recover, wouldn't/couldn't their cancer also recover?
> De we WANT cancerous tissue to recover?
>
> I.P.

No.  Nerves are composed of nerve cells.  Prostate cancer is
composed of prostate cells.  "Invasion" of the nerves doesn't
mean that the nerve cells have become cancerous.  It only means
that cancerous prostate cells have surrounded the nerve cells.
My understanding is that they remove the nerve bundles in some
prostatectomies, not because the nerves are diseased, but
because there's no way to get the cancer all around the nerves
without removing them too.

   Alan
I.P. Freely - 28 Jul 2009 01:05 GMT
> ...
>> But if the nerves recover, wouldn't/couldn't their cancer also
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> because there's no way to get the cancer all around the nerves
> without removing them too.

Got it. Thanks.

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 27 Jul 2009 16:35 GMT
: My question to the group is. Does anyone know if the neural grafts are
: having any luck and if so which doctor is having the most success.

I doubt that even the medical industry knows that answer.  I lost both
nerves and had a useable erection 2½ years later.  I was then assaulted with
radiation and then with hormones, then double-down hormones and damn if I
didn't have an erection twice in the last year.

Compared to that, how could anyone say that neural grafts are successful or
if the body just did its job?

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
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Ron - 27 Jul 2009 20:29 GMT
Thanks for all the replies. I didn't include a lot of details because I only
knew that his doctor, oncologist, urologist told him that his cancer was too
close to the margins to save the nerves, and I possibly thought the graft
might be worth a try.
Thanks again
> Sorry for the crosspost but I initally posted to the wrong group.
> A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with PC and was told that nerve
> sparing was out of the question.
> My question to the group is. Does anyone know if the neural grafts are
> having any luck and if so which doctor is having the most success.
> Thanks Ron
Steve Jordan - 27 Jul 2009 21:17 GMT
> Thanks for all the replies. I didn't include a lot of details because I only
> knew that his doctor, oncologist, urologist told him that his cancer was too
> close to the margins to save the nerves, and I possibly thought the graft
> might be worth a try.

It's likely the sural nerve graft procedure.

Here's a link to an article from The Cleveland Clinic:

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/services/robotic_sural_nerve_graft/urology_overvie
w.aspx


Regards,

Steve J
 
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