Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2009
new to group
|
|
Thread rating:  |
daddy jim - 18 Jan 2009 12:44 GMT morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what should i xpect? things i should tell doctor? have had a dull pain in my right groin area, and in the middle of the night, my hips hurt, calves are sore, and my toes tingle..may be a hernia, but then again....any help appreciated.......thanks guys......jim
Steve Kramer - 18 Jan 2009 13:05 GMT > morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what > should i xpect? things i should tell doctor? have had a dull pain in > my right groin area, and in the middle of the night, my hips hurt, > calves are sore, and my toes tingle..may be a hernia, but then > again....any help appreciated.......thanks guys......jim First, neither I nor the regular posters here are doctors.
Second, let me assert that you are getting well ahead of yourself. Unless you have a history of rising PSA results, prostate cancer might the 10th most likely diagnosis from the symptoms that you have reported.
Assuming again that you have no PSA history, the doc will stick a needle in your arm and draw blood. He will stick a finger in your butt and feel your prostate. If your PSA comes back at 4.0 or higher and your digital rectal exam (DRE) comes back as "palpable" or if he finds the prostate is swollen, he will likely put you on a strong antibiotic to fight the likely infection. If that does not work to lower your PSA, he will then send you in for a biopsy of the prostate to search for cancer. If he finds some, you will research, research, and research some more before coming to a decision (we hope) as to which treatment you will accept.
Your symptoms sounds to me the Sciatica. Maybe Sciatica plus a hernia. Have you don't any awkward lifting lately?
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA undetectable since, < 0.04 on 10/09/08 Illegitimati non carborundum
I.P. Freely - 18 Jan 2009 14:45 GMT > morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what > should i xpect? things i should tell doctor? have had a dull pain in > my right groin area, and in the middle of the night, my hips hurt, > calves are sore, and my toes tingle..may be a hernia, but then > again....any help appreciated.......thanks guys......jim Could be, in order: groin muscle pull, hard mattress, insufficient bananas, heavy covers.
Or it could be scores of other things.
If it's all due to prostate cancer ... well, we'll let the docs determine that. Is your PSA 4, or 4,000?
I.P.
GOCYCLE - 18 Jan 2009 15:51 GMT Just to add. If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken into account.
Check this out:
Normal PSA: 0.66
Heavy and Long Distance Bicycle riding: 2.6
Layed off 10 days on the bike: PSA sensitve test .043
URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's time for a new URO.
>> morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what >> should i xpect? things i should tell doctor? have had a dull pain in [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I.P. ron - 18 Jan 2009 16:02 GMT > Just to add. If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken > into account. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's > time for a new URO. Actually, the studies done on this subject support your current uro's position...ron
Clin Chem Lab Med. 2004 Mar;42(3):347-9
Long-distance mountain biking does not disturb the measurement of total, free or complexed prostate-specific antigen in healthy men.
Herrmann M, Scharhag J, Sand-Hill M, Kindermann W, Herrmann W.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, University Hospital of Saarland, Homburg/Saar, Germany.
PURPOSE: Mechanical manipulation of the prostate is a generally accepted interfering factor for the measurement of prostate-specific antigen (PSA). However, only few studies have focused on common daily mechanical manipulations, such as bicycle riding. Furthermore, physical exercise is also supposed to modulate PSA serum concentration. Long-distance mountain biking is an excellent model to study the combined effect of mechanical prostate manipulation by bicycle riding and strenuous endurance exercise on total, free and complexed PSA (tPSA, fPSA, cPSA). MATERIALS AND METHODS: We investigated tPSA, fPSA and cPSA in 42 healthy male cyclists (mean age 35+/-6 years) before and after a 120 km off-road mountain bike race. Blood sampling was done before, 15 min and 3 h after the race. RESULTS: Mean race time was 342+/-65 min. All athletes had normal serum levels of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA. None of these parameters was modified by the race. CONCLUSIONS: In healthy men the measurement of tPSA, fPSA and cPSA is not disturbed by preceding long distance mountain biking or endurance exercise. Based on the present data, there is no evidence for a recommendation to limit bicycle riding or physical activity before the measurement of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA.
Bicycle riding has no important impact on total and free prostate- specific antigen serum levels in older men. Luboldt HJ, et al. Urology. 2003 Jun;61(6):1177-80.
Johns Hopkins Postate Bulletin 04/07/04
http://www.hopkinsprostate.com/html/GrandRounds/2003/gr1003_07.html
Bicycling And BPH
Q. My query concerns something my wife has been badgering me about for the past year. I have what I consider to be moderate BPH. I’m 46 and have to get up to go to the bathroom about twice a night, and have been doing so for the past two years. I tried saw palmetto but that didn’t reduce my bathroom frequency at all. My wife thinks that my urination problems are caused by my bike riding and says I should switch to swimming. Armchair doctor that she is, she thinks that sitting so long on my small, hard bike seat has somehow aggravated my prostate and caused my problems. What do you think? For the past decade, I have been riding well over 150 miles a week, and each year I ride several "centuries" with my friends, which are one-day, non-stop 100-mile rides. I tell her that age is causing my problems, not cycling. Your thoughts, please. Atlanta, GA
A. There are some data to suggest that cycling does not traumatize the prostate. In a study done after a four-day, 250-mile bicycle race, there was no significant increase in PSA when compared to the PSA before the race began. PSA is a sensitive marker of prostate trauma, and if cycling caused prostate trauma, one would have expected to see an increase in the PSA.
GOCYCLE - 18 Jan 2009 22:39 GMT Thanks for the reply. However, I have read this study and another which is deeply flawed.
The study below is Mountain Biking. The difference between road biking and mountain biking are different as it relates to seat pressure. A mountain biker is negotiating twists and turns either through woods, dirt/mud trails or rocks therefore OFF the seat alot relieving pressure. Long distance road cycling---45-100 miles in a day require the cyclist to remain seated-though it is a good practice not to remain so all the time.
The second study I read was was only a 13 mile bike ride which may seem like a long distance for some readers but in actuality it is not for seasoned riders.
Lastly, I just did a GOOGLE search and some sites state a 3 fold increase in PSA can result from seat trauma. This trauma is especially prevalent on long trips when operating over a poor roadway or smashing into potholes which can actually bruise the groin area.
Just my thoughts as this is confusing.
I have another test scheduled for Feb plus a DRE. I stay on top of this issue every year.
Thanks for the response.
 Signature Regards, Lou
------ ____o ---- __ ` \ < , --- ( * ) / ( * )
On Jan 18, 8:51 am, "GOCYCLE" <Gocyc...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Just to add. If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken > into account. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's > time for a new URO. Actually, the studies done on this subject support your current uro's position...ron
Clin Chem Lab Med. 2004 Mar;42(3):347-9
Long-distance mountain biking does not disturb the measurement of total, free or complexed prostate-specific antigen in healthy men.
Herrmann M, Scharhag J, Sand-Hill M, Kindermann W, Herrmann W.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, University Hospital of Saarland, Homburg/Saar, Germany.
PURPOSE: Mechanical manipulation of the prostate is a generally accepted interfering factor for the measurement of prostate-specific antigen (PSA). However, only few studies have focused on common daily mechanical manipulations, such as bicycle riding. Furthermore, physical exercise is also supposed to modulate PSA serum concentration. Long-distance mountain biking is an excellent model to study the combined effect of mechanical prostate manipulation by bicycle riding and strenuous endurance exercise on total, free and complexed PSA (tPSA, fPSA, cPSA). MATERIALS AND METHODS: We investigated tPSA, fPSA and cPSA in 42 healthy male cyclists (mean age 35+/-6 years) before and after a 120 km off-road mountain bike race. Blood sampling was done before, 15 min and 3 h after the race. RESULTS: Mean race time was 342+/-65 min. All athletes had normal serum levels of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA. None of these parameters was modified by the race. CONCLUSIONS: In healthy men the measurement of tPSA, fPSA and cPSA is not disturbed by preceding long distance mountain biking or endurance exercise. Based on the present data, there is no evidence for a recommendation to limit bicycle riding or physical activity before the measurement of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA.
Bicycle riding has no important impact on total and free prostate- specific antigen serum levels in older men. Luboldt HJ, et al. Urology. 2003 Jun;61(6):1177-80.
Johns Hopkins Postate Bulletin 04/07/04
http://www.hopkinsprostate.com/html/GrandRounds/2003/gr1003_07.html
Bicycling And BPH
Q. My query concerns something my wife has been badgering me about for the past year. I have what I consider to be moderate BPH. I’m 46 and have to get up to go to the bathroom about twice a night, and have been doing so for the past two years. I tried saw palmetto but that didn’t reduce my bathroom frequency at all. My wife thinks that my urination problems are caused by my bike riding and says I should switch to swimming. Armchair doctor that she is, she thinks that sitting so long on my small, hard bike seat has somehow aggravated my prostate and caused my problems. What do you think? For the past decade, I have been riding well over 150 miles a week, and each year I ride several "centuries" with my friends, which are one-day, non-stop 100-mile rides. I tell her that age is causing my problems, not cycling. Your thoughts, please. Atlanta, GA
A. There are some data to suggest that cycling does not traumatize the prostate. In a study done after a four-day, 250-mile bicycle race, there was no significant increase in PSA when compared to the PSA before the race began. PSA is a sensitive marker of prostate trauma, and if cycling caused prostate trauma, one would have expected to see an increase in the PSA.
len - 19 Jan 2009 05:51 GMT > Thanks for the reply. However, I have read this study and another which is > deeply flawed. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Thanks for the response. I think the evidence is unclear as to whether or not the kind of cycling you do can increase your PSA. But it is no big deal to lay off cycling for a couple of days before a PSA test.
More to the point, although it is controversial, some urologists think that heavy cycling can induce impotence. On the other hand, regular cycling keeps you physically fit and prevents impotence due to circulatory problems, some on balance the cylcing may do you more goo than harm in that regard.
If you do decide to continue cycling, take prudent measures to minimize the danger of impotence. The most important thing is a well fitting seat that supports your weight on you pelvic bones rather than by soft tissue. I find it help to have the seat point slightly downward rather than slightly upward. Make sure you get up off the seat for a short while every five minutes or so, and stop every half hour or so and get off the bike. Make absolutely sure your seat never gets loose.
I can't cycle these days more than 50 minutes twice every five days because of serious back problems. I've cycled regularly for years, more than I do currently, but not nearly as much as you have, so I don't know how valuable my experience is. But I had a radical prostatectomy at age 67, when the likelihood of maining erections following surgery was at best 50-50. But today, at age 75, I have nocturnal erections, occasionally cna manage without aids, and get by pretty well with Viagra. So apparently, the cycling, with the safeguards I use, has not caused me any problems. That suggests that you can cycle for exercise without erection problem as long as you don't overdo it and take reasonable precaustions.
> -- > Regards, [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > and if cycling caused prostate trauma, one would have expected to see > an increase in the PSA. Steve Kramer - 20 Jan 2009 00:40 GMT > Lastly, I just did a GOOGLE search and some sites state a 3 fold increase > in PSA can result from seat trauma. There are theories and studies on this. I don't think any of them allege an increase greater than 10% to 15%.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA undetectable since, < 0.04 on 10/09/08 Illegitimati non carborundum
Steve Kramer - 18 Jan 2009 16:31 GMT > Just to add. If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken > into account. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's > time for a new URO. Even with heavy bicycle riding, I would consider a 2.6 between to scores less than 1.0 to be an anomaly; more likely a lab problem than a uro problem.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA undetectable since, < 0.04 on 10/09/08 Illegitimati non carborundum
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 10:09 GMT > Normal PSA: 0.66 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's > time for a new URO. Well, as a long time cyclist I have a slightly different take on this subject.
On one hand I've read the studies and understand what they say about what I would call the theory of physically induced greater PSA due to pressure. Meaning all that bouncing around and sitting on the bicycle seat pushing on the prostate.
But looking at it from another point of view I think there may, in some men, be a possible way in which cycling can induce a higher PSA score. That way would not be from direct and immediate causation during recent rides, but rather from a much longer term aggravation of the prostate and associated areas. Meaning a cycling induced chronic, though possibly asymptomatic, case of prostatitis.
In my case I had a feeling that my cycling might be having an effect after getting my first PSA in 5.3 years only to have it jump up to 2.9 from the prior .8 reading. 6 months later, and after taking 20 days off the bike while visiting friends in Hawaii, I retested and it was 1.6. I might add, that laying off the bike seemed like it allowed a slight prostatitis urgency to subside.
Now, as I'm sure some will say, that slight urgency could have come and gone for reasons other than cycling. True, and of course I'm a case study of one. Also between the 2.9 and the 1.6 tests I also made other dietary changes... In subsequent tests I allow myself a several days off the bike 5-7 before drawing blood.
All I can say is that as a longer term cyclist doing well over 100 miles per week, I just have this hunch that the extra cycling might well induce a bit of prostatitis with only minor to nil symptoms, and yet capable of bumping up a PSA result by 1 or 2 points.
I could be completely wrong about that chain of events connection to a higher PSA.
Still, before my next PSA test I'll probably take 5 to 7 days off.....and for other reasons my current biking is only about 70 miles a week with the rides being 3 x 23 mile loops.....all rather quickly done so no long lingering on the saddle.....and also full of climbing so I am out of the saddle more often.
OK........thats my longer term, non-immediate pressure theory, of how cycling might give a higher than normal PSA reading
Steve Kramer - 20 Jan 2009 11:30 GMT Perhaps, we ought to consider then cycle riding for those with enlarged prostates due to Prostatitis. Prostates are normally the size of a walnut. If your prostate grows to the size of a baseball and you ride a bike for a hundred miles, it may grow to the size of a softball and emit much more PSA and pinch your urethra.
On Jan 18, 7:51 am, "GOCYCLE" <Gocyc...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Normal PSA: 0.66 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's > time for a new URO. Well, as a long time cyclist I have a slightly different take on this subject.
On one hand I've read the studies and understand what they say about what I would call the theory of physically induced greater PSA due to pressure. Meaning all that bouncing around and sitting on the bicycle seat pushing on the prostate.
But looking at it from another point of view I think there may, in some men, be a possible way in which cycling can induce a higher PSA score. That way would not be from direct and immediate causation during recent rides, but rather from a much longer term aggravation of the prostate and associated areas. Meaning a cycling induced chronic, though possibly asymptomatic, case of prostatitis.
In my case I had a feeling that my cycling might be having an effect after getting my first PSA in 5.3 years only to have it jump up to 2.9 from the prior .8 reading. 6 months later, and after taking 20 days off the bike while visiting friends in Hawaii, I retested and it was 1.6. I might add, that laying off the bike seemed like it allowed a slight prostatitis urgency to subside.
Now, as I'm sure some will say, that slight urgency could have come and gone for reasons other than cycling. True, and of course I'm a case study of one. Also between the 2.9 and the 1.6 tests I also made other dietary changes... In subsequent tests I allow myself a several days off the bike 5-7 before drawing blood.
All I can say is that as a longer term cyclist doing well over 100 miles per week, I just have this hunch that the extra cycling might well induce a bit of prostatitis with only minor to nil symptoms, and yet capable of bumping up a PSA result by 1 or 2 points.
I could be completely wrong about that chain of events connection to a higher PSA.
Still, before my next PSA test I'll probably take 5 to 7 days off.....and for other reasons my current biking is only about 70 miles a week with the rides being 3 x 23 mile loops.....all rather quickly done so no long lingering on the saddle.....and also full of climbing so I am out of the saddle more often.
OK........thats my longer term, non-immediate pressure theory, of how cycling might give a higher than normal PSA reading
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 18:58 GMT > Perhaps, we ought to consider then cycle riding for those with enlarged > prostates due to Prostatitis. Prostates are normally the size of a walnut. > If your prostate grows to the size of a baseball and you ride a bike for a > hundred miles, it may grow to the size of a softball and emit much more PSA > and pinch your urethra. I see.....hmmm, well I see a study down the road......
n = 100 50 with moderate bph who cycle 150 miles a week 25 with moderate bph who swim 25 with moderate bph who run
After 3 months everyone switch their activity for the following three months.
OK.....anyway, with 50% of folks thinking "recent" biking causes higher and 50% thinking it does nothing as the few studies indicate. In the general public and apparently in some medical professionals it seems the case has not been closed.
As they say in the case of so many dietary modifications,, well it can't hurt even if it doesn't slow or halt the progression of PCa or PSA. For now, I'll still take 5 to 7 days off prior to testing.
You know, on a entirely different PSA influencing topic, there have been some studies indicating that those who are obese get a 11 to 22 percent lower PSA reading than a normal weight individual due to hemodilution. My curiosity is what about those, like hard core bicyclists who often have BMI readings at 19.0 or such. My guess from some discussion with some of those researchers is that a person with a 19.0 BMI might need to substract perhaps .1 to .2 from their PSA to get a comparable number to a average/normal weight person in the 23 to 24 BMI range.
Another potential "side effect" of cycling if it induces a very low body weight.
I.P. Freely - 20 Jan 2009 20:13 GMT > person with a 19.0 BMI might need to substract perhaps ... I hope that's a hypothetical number. Some BMI charts consider 22 as underweight, and by even the most optimistic analysis 19 is borderline.
I.P.
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 21:17 GMT > gvk2...@yahoo.com wrote: > > person with a 19.0 BMI might need to substract perhaps ... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I.P. http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/
Actually the most typical standards area as follows from the National Institutes of Health...
* Underweight = <18.5 * Normal weight = 18.5-24.9 * Overweight = 25-29.9 * Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater
The "normal" BMI used in the studies showing hemodilution were close ot the upper range of normal. Thats why I put down 23 to 24.
When I'm at 19.0 I feel skinny but it sure makes climbing easier. However I might add that the average Tour deFrance participant is NOT that low. Not sure exactly where they are but probably in the 21 to 23 range.
I do not think you'll find any BMI chart that considers 22 to be underweight.
As to the typical 40 to 60 year old American male, I'm guessing they're some where in the upper 28 to 29 range.. While the upper 2/3's probably average a bit above 30.... Not quite the 35 where the studies showed the need to subtract 11 to 22 percent from a "safe" PSA level, but still some differential compared to the 24 bmi.... I'm sure the hemodilution effect is all on a sliding scale but the studies did not spell that out. However when talking to one of the researchers I got the impression that a 19.0 BMI person could probably subtract .1 from their psa score or allow perhaps a upper limit .1 higher to the "safe" zone... Perhaps .2 but he didn't want to go out on a limb. So a person with a very low bmi gets the reverse of hemodilution.
Not a big deal, but hey, we've got a lot of borderline calls in this area.
I.P. Freely - 20 Jan 2009 22:34 GMT > the most typical standards area as follows from the National > Institutes of Health... > > * Underweight = <18.5
> I do not think you'll find any BMI chart that considers 22 to be > underweight. I mentioned that because the first chart Google showed me indicated 22 as the upper threshold for the Underweight class. 19 was deep into uncharted Underweight territory on that chart.
http://tinyurl.com/94v4w8
My only point was that a man with a BMI of 19 should be very careful with his health, as he is walking a tightrope, especially with cancer, not to mention the other hazards of low body weight.
I.P.
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 23:21 GMT > I mentioned that because the first chart Google showed me indicated 22 > as the upper threshold for the Underweight class. 19 was deep into [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with his health, as he is walking a tightrope, especially with cancer, > not to mention the other hazards of low body weight. I don't know how, but you seem to have found the most distorted BMI chart I have ever seen. Just went to the Mayo Clinic... I'm sure they know what they are doing. Their range for "normal" also begins at 18.5 just like the other one I gave
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bmi-calculator/NU00597
I'm afraid you've become too accustomed to what passes for normal on the typical American street. I can assure you it is not typical for many other parts of the world, nor is it considered more healthy. I just put my data into the Mayo Clinic and I am 19.2, well above the 18.5 cutoff for "normal"... I can assure you I eat a very healthy diet, but I do limit my intake of animal products, meats, dairy, oils etc.. Not at Ornish levels, but only about half of what most Americans eat in their diet. Now, thats lowered fat but not necessarily lower calories. I eat a heap of food, probably stacked higher then 90% of the folks here consume. But I also ride my bike and walk.
My weight has been in this range for several years, never more than 3 pounds lower or higher. There are no hazards or tightropes that I know of, and by the way, I do not have prostate cancer. I do follow my PSA though. I agree, that a person with PCa would not want their weight to fall too low nor too quickly.
Ideally most Americans would lower their weight starting in their early 30's instead of putting on a pound or two each year. Seems everything I read about diets that "may" be optimal for prostate cancer prevention all involve cutting down on animal products, usually including dairy. Also happens to be the preferred diet for most cardio-vascular related conditions.
Now, one last thing. The BMI calculators usually do not take into account build. I'm sure there are men who at my height, weight, and BMI would actually be "underweight" even though the charts say its OK. On the other hand, over the past 30+ years in America we've developed a distorted image of what is normal and what is underweight. Go to any mall and see what now passes for normal. Actually the latest report I saw suggested the following...
"Numbers posted by the National Center for Health Statistics show that more than 34 percent of Americans are obese, compared to 32.7 percent who are overweight. It said just under 6 percent are "extremely" obese."
Add up those numbers and you have 72.7% of American adults, overweight, obese, or extremely obese.
Now, I'm not one of those who would tell someone to dive into some crazy diet in an effort to lose pounds quickly, but going lower gradually over many months or years, is probably a good thing. Very few reports of malnutrition in American adult males.
|
|
|