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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2009

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daddy jim - 18 Jan 2009 12:44 GMT
morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what
should i xpect?  things i should tell doctor?  have had a dull pain in
my right groin area, and in the middle of the night, my hips hurt,
calves are sore, and my toes tingle..may be a hernia, but then
again....any help appreciated.......thanks guys......jim
Steve Kramer - 18 Jan 2009 13:05 GMT
> morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what
> should i xpect?  things i should tell doctor?  have had a dull pain in
> my right groin area, and in the middle of the night, my hips hurt,
> calves are sore, and my toes tingle..may be a hernia, but then
> again....any help appreciated.......thanks guys......jim

First, neither I nor the regular posters here are doctors.

Second, let me assert that you are getting well ahead of yourself.  Unless
you have a history of rising PSA results, prostate cancer might the 10th
most likely diagnosis from the symptoms that you have reported.

Assuming again that you have no PSA history, the doc will stick a needle in
your arm and draw blood.  He will stick a finger in your butt and feel your
prostate.  If your PSA comes back at 4.0 or higher and your digital rectal
exam (DRE) comes back as "palpable" or if he finds the prostate is swollen,
he will likely put you on a strong antibiotic to fight the likely infection.
If that does not work to lower your PSA, he will then send you in for a
biopsy of the prostate to search for cancer.  If he finds some, you will
research, research, and research some more before coming to a decision (we
hope) as to which treatment you will accept.

Your symptoms sounds to me the Sciatica.  Maybe Sciatica plus a hernia.
Have you don't any awkward lifting lately?

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                        PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA undetectable since, < 0.04 on 10/09/08
Illegitimati non carborundum

I.P. Freely - 18 Jan 2009 14:45 GMT
> morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what
> should i xpect?  things i should tell doctor?  have had a dull pain in
> my right groin area, and in the middle of the night, my hips hurt,
> calves are sore, and my toes tingle..may be a hernia, but then
> again....any help appreciated.......thanks guys......jim

Could be, in order: groin muscle pull, hard mattress, insufficient
bananas, heavy covers.

Or it could be scores of other things.

If it's all due to prostate cancer ... well, we'll let the docs
determine that. Is your PSA 4, or 4,000?

I.P.
GOCYCLE - 18 Jan 2009 15:51 GMT
Just to add.   If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken
into account.

Check this out:

Normal PSA: 0.66

Heavy and Long Distance Bicycle riding:  2.6

Layed off 10 days on the bike:  PSA sensitve test  .043

URO said its not bicycle related.  Two of my MD cycling friends say it's
time for a new URO.

>> morning...im going to doctors this week for a prostate exam...what
>> should i xpect?  things i should tell doctor?  have had a dull pain in
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I.P.
ron - 18 Jan 2009 16:02 GMT
> Just to add.   If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken
> into account.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> URO said its not bicycle related.  Two of my MD cycling friends say it's
> time for a new URO.

Actually, the studies done on this subject support your current uro's
position...ron

Clin Chem Lab Med. 2004 Mar;42(3):347-9

Long-distance mountain biking does not disturb the measurement of
total, free or complexed prostate-specific antigen in healthy men.

Herrmann M, Scharhag J, Sand-Hill M, Kindermann W, Herrmann W.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University Hospital of Saarland,
Homburg/Saar, Germany.

PURPOSE: Mechanical manipulation of the prostate is a generally
accepted interfering factor for the measurement of prostate-specific
antigen (PSA). However, only few studies have focused on common daily
mechanical manipulations, such as bicycle riding. Furthermore,
physical exercise is also supposed to modulate PSA serum
concentration. Long-distance mountain biking is an excellent model to
study the combined effect of mechanical prostate manipulation by
bicycle riding and strenuous endurance exercise on total, free and
complexed PSA (tPSA, fPSA, cPSA).
MATERIALS AND METHODS: We investigated tPSA, fPSA and cPSA in 42
healthy male cyclists (mean age 35+/-6 years) before and after a 120
km off-road mountain bike race. Blood sampling was done before, 15 min
and 3 h after the race.
RESULTS: Mean race time was 342+/-65 min. All athletes had normal
serum levels of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA. None of these parameters was
modified by the race.
CONCLUSIONS: In healthy men the measurement of tPSA, fPSA and cPSA is
not disturbed by preceding long distance mountain biking or endurance
exercise. Based on the present data, there is no evidence for a
recommendation to limit bicycle riding or physical activity before the
measurement of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA.

Bicycle riding has no important impact on total and free prostate-
specific antigen serum levels in older men.
Luboldt HJ,  et al. Urology. 2003 Jun;61(6):1177-80.

Johns Hopkins Postate Bulletin 04/07/04

http://www.hopkinsprostate.com/html/GrandRounds/2003/gr1003_07.html

Bicycling And BPH

Q. My query concerns something my wife has been badgering me about for
the past year. I have what I consider to be moderate BPH. I’m 46 and
have to get up to go to the bathroom about twice a night, and have
been doing so for the past two years. I tried saw palmetto but that
didn’t reduce my bathroom frequency at all. My wife thinks that my
urination problems are caused by my bike riding and says I should
switch to swimming. Armchair doctor that she is, she thinks that
sitting so long on my small, hard bike seat has somehow aggravated my
prostate and caused my problems. What do you think? For the past
decade, I have been riding well over 150 miles a week, and each year I
ride several "centuries" with my friends, which are one-day, non-stop
100-mile rides. I tell her that age is causing my problems, not
cycling. Your thoughts, please. Atlanta, GA

A. There are some data to suggest that cycling does not traumatize the
prostate. In a study done after a four-day, 250-mile bicycle race,
there was no significant increase in PSA when compared to the PSA
before the race began. PSA is a sensitive marker of prostate trauma,
and if cycling caused prostate trauma, one would have expected to see
an increase in the PSA.
GOCYCLE - 18 Jan 2009 22:39 GMT
Thanks for the reply.  However, I have read this study and another which is
deeply flawed.

The study below is Mountain Biking.  The difference between road biking and
mountain biking are different as it relates to seat pressure.  A mountain
biker is negotiating twists and turns either through woods, dirt/mud trails
or rocks therefore OFF the seat alot relieving pressure.  Long distance road
cycling---45-100 miles in a day require the cyclist to remain seated-though
it is a good practice not to remain so all the time.

The second study I read was was only a 13 mile bike ride which may seem like
a long distance for some readers but in actuality it is not for seasoned
riders.

Lastly, I just did a GOOGLE search and some sites state a 3 fold increase in
PSA can result from seat trauma.  This trauma is especially prevalent on
long trips when operating over a poor roadway or smashing into potholes
which can actually bruise the groin area.

Just my thoughts as this is confusing.

I have another test scheduled for Feb plus a DRE.  I stay on top of this
issue every year.

Thanks for the response.

Signature

Regards,
Lou

------ ____o
---- __ ` \ < ,
--- ( * ) / ( * )

On Jan 18, 8:51 am, "GOCYCLE" <Gocyc...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Just to add. If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken
> into account.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's
> time for a new URO.

Actually, the studies done on this subject support your current uro's
position...ron

Clin Chem Lab Med. 2004 Mar;42(3):347-9

Long-distance mountain biking does not disturb the measurement of
total, free or complexed prostate-specific antigen in healthy men.

Herrmann M, Scharhag J, Sand-Hill M, Kindermann W, Herrmann W.

Department of Clinical Chemistry, University Hospital of Saarland,
Homburg/Saar, Germany.

PURPOSE: Mechanical manipulation of the prostate is a generally
accepted interfering factor for the measurement of prostate-specific
antigen (PSA). However, only few studies have focused on common daily
mechanical manipulations, such as bicycle riding. Furthermore,
physical exercise is also supposed to modulate PSA serum
concentration. Long-distance mountain biking is an excellent model to
study the combined effect of mechanical prostate manipulation by
bicycle riding and strenuous endurance exercise on total, free and
complexed PSA (tPSA, fPSA, cPSA).
MATERIALS AND METHODS: We investigated tPSA, fPSA and cPSA in 42
healthy male cyclists (mean age 35+/-6 years) before and after a 120
km off-road mountain bike race. Blood sampling was done before, 15 min
and 3 h after the race.
RESULTS: Mean race time was 342+/-65 min. All athletes had normal
serum levels of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA. None of these parameters was
modified by the race.
CONCLUSIONS: In healthy men the measurement of tPSA, fPSA and cPSA is
not disturbed by preceding long distance mountain biking or endurance
exercise. Based on the present data, there is no evidence for a
recommendation to limit bicycle riding or physical activity before the
measurement of tPSA, fPSA or cPSA.

Bicycle riding has no important impact on total and free prostate-
specific antigen serum levels in older men.
Luboldt HJ,  et al. Urology. 2003 Jun;61(6):1177-80.

Johns Hopkins Postate Bulletin 04/07/04

http://www.hopkinsprostate.com/html/GrandRounds/2003/gr1003_07.html

Bicycling And BPH

Q. My query concerns something my wife has been badgering me about for
the past year. I have what I consider to be moderate BPH. I’m 46 and
have to get up to go to the bathroom about twice a night, and have
been doing so for the past two years. I tried saw palmetto but that
didn’t reduce my bathroom frequency at all. My wife thinks that my
urination problems are caused by my bike riding and says I should
switch to swimming. Armchair doctor that she is, she thinks that
sitting so long on my small, hard bike seat has somehow aggravated my
prostate and caused my problems. What do you think? For the past
decade, I have been riding well over 150 miles a week, and each year I
ride several "centuries" with my friends, which are one-day, non-stop
100-mile rides. I tell her that age is causing my problems, not
cycling. Your thoughts, please. Atlanta, GA

A. There are some data to suggest that cycling does not traumatize the
prostate. In a study done after a four-day, 250-mile bicycle race,
there was no significant increase in PSA when compared to the PSA
before the race began. PSA is a sensitive marker of prostate trauma,
and if cycling caused prostate trauma, one would have expected to see
an increase in the PSA.
len - 19 Jan 2009 05:51 GMT
> Thanks for the reply.  However, I have read this study and another which is
> deeply flawed.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Thanks for the response.

I think the evidence is unclear as to whether or not the kind of
cycling you do can increase your PSA.    But it is no big deal to lay
off cycling for a couple of days before a PSA test.

More to the point, although it is controversial, some urologists think
that heavy cycling can induce impotence.  On the other hand, regular
cycling keeps you physically fit and prevents impotence due to
circulatory problems, some on balance the cylcing may do you more goo
than harm in that regard.

If you do decide to continue cycling, take  prudent measures to
minimize the danger of impotence.   The most important thing is a well
fitting seat that supports your weight on you pelvic bones rather than
by soft tissue.   I find it help to have the seat point slightly
downward rather than slightly upward.  Make sure you get up off the
seat for a short while every five minutes or so, and stop every half
hour or so and get off the bike.  Make absolutely sure your seat never
gets loose.

I can't cycle these days more than 50 minutes twice every five days
because of serious back problems.   I've cycled regularly for years,
more than I do currently, but not nearly as much as you have,  so I
don't know how valuable my experience is.  But I had a radical
prostatectomy at age 67, when the likelihood of maining erections
following surgery was at best 50-50.   But today, at age 75, I have
nocturnal erections, occasionally cna manage without aids, and get by
pretty well with Viagra.  So apparently, the cycling, with the
safeguards I use, has not caused me any problems.   That suggests that
you can cycle for exercise without erection problem as long as you
don't overdo it and take reasonable precaustions.

> --
> Regards,
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> and if cycling caused prostate trauma, one would have expected to see
> an increase in the PSA.
Steve Kramer - 20 Jan 2009 00:40 GMT
> Lastly, I just did a GOOGLE search and some sites state a 3 fold increase
> in PSA can result from seat trauma.

There are theories and studies on this.  I don't think any of them allege an
increase greater than 10% to 15%.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                        PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA undetectable since, < 0.04 on 10/09/08
Illegitimati non carborundum

Steve Kramer - 18 Jan 2009 16:31 GMT
> Just to add.   If his velocity inreased from a prior exam, that is taken
> into account.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> URO said its not bicycle related.  Two of my MD cycling friends say it's
> time for a new URO.

Even with heavy bicycle riding, I would consider a 2.6 between to scores
less than 1.0 to be an anomaly; more likely a lab problem than a uro
problem.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                        PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA undetectable since, < 0.04 on 10/09/08
Illegitimati non carborundum

gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 10:09 GMT
> Normal PSA: 0.66
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> URO said its not bicycle related.  Two of my MD cycling friends say it's
> time for a new URO.

Well, as a long time cyclist I have a slightly different take on this
subject.

On one hand I've read the studies and understand what they say about
what I would call the theory of physically induced greater PSA due to
pressure.  Meaning all that bouncing around and sitting on the bicycle
seat pushing on the prostate.

But looking at it from another point of view I think there may, in
some men, be a possible way in which cycling can induce a higher PSA
score.
That way would not be from direct and immediate causation during
recent rides, but rather from a much longer term aggravation of the
prostate and associated areas.   Meaning a cycling induced chronic,
though possibly asymptomatic,  case of prostatitis.

In my case I had a feeling that my cycling might be having an effect
after getting my first PSA in 5.3 years only to have it jump up to 2.9
from the prior .8 reading.
6 months later, and after taking 20 days off the bike while visiting
friends in Hawaii,   I retested and it was 1.6.
I might add,  that laying off the bike seemed like it allowed a slight
prostatitis urgency to subside.

Now, as I'm sure some will say,  that slight urgency could have come
and gone for reasons other than cycling.   True, and of course I'm a
case study of one.   Also between the 2.9 and the 1.6 tests I also
made other dietary changes...
In subsequent tests I allow myself a several days off the bike 5-7
before drawing blood.

All I can say is that as a longer term cyclist doing well over 100
miles per week,  I just have this hunch that the extra cycling might
well induce a bit of prostatitis with only minor to nil symptoms, and
yet capable of bumping up a PSA result by 1 or 2 points.

I could be completely wrong about that chain of events connection to a
higher PSA.

Still,  before my next PSA test I'll probably take 5 to 7 days
off.....and for other reasons my current biking is only about 70 miles
a week with the rides being 3 x 23 mile loops.....all rather quickly
done so no long lingering on the saddle.....and also full of climbing
so I am out of the saddle more often.

OK........thats my longer term,  non-immediate pressure theory, of how
cycling might give a higher than normal PSA reading
Steve Kramer - 20 Jan 2009 11:30 GMT
Perhaps, we ought to consider then cycle riding for those with enlarged
prostates due to Prostatitis.  Prostates are normally the size of a walnut.
If your prostate grows to the size of a baseball and you ride a bike for a
hundred miles, it may grow to the size of a softball and emit much more PSA
and pinch your urethra.

On Jan 18, 7:51 am, "GOCYCLE" <Gocyc...@optonline.net> wrote:

> Normal PSA: 0.66
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> URO said its not bicycle related. Two of my MD cycling friends say it's
> time for a new URO.

Well, as a long time cyclist I have a slightly different take on this
subject.

On one hand I've read the studies and understand what they say about
what I would call the theory of physically induced greater PSA due to
pressure.  Meaning all that bouncing around and sitting on the bicycle
seat pushing on the prostate.

But looking at it from another point of view I think there may, in
some men, be a possible way in which cycling can induce a higher PSA
score.
That way would not be from direct and immediate causation during
recent rides, but rather from a much longer term aggravation of the
prostate and associated areas.   Meaning a cycling induced chronic,
though possibly asymptomatic,  case of prostatitis.

In my case I had a feeling that my cycling might be having an effect
after getting my first PSA in 5.3 years only to have it jump up to 2.9
from the prior .8 reading.
6 months later, and after taking 20 days off the bike while visiting
friends in Hawaii,   I retested and it was 1.6.
I might add,  that laying off the bike seemed like it allowed a slight
prostatitis urgency to subside.

Now, as I'm sure some will say,  that slight urgency could have come
and gone for reasons other than cycling.   True, and of course I'm a
case study of one.   Also between the 2.9 and the 1.6 tests I also
made other dietary changes...
In subsequent tests I allow myself a several days off the bike 5-7
before drawing blood.

All I can say is that as a longer term cyclist doing well over 100
miles per week,  I just have this hunch that the extra cycling might
well induce a bit of prostatitis with only minor to nil symptoms, and
yet capable of bumping up a PSA result by 1 or 2 points.

I could be completely wrong about that chain of events connection to a
higher PSA.

Still,  before my next PSA test I'll probably take 5 to 7 days
off.....and for other reasons my current biking is only about 70 miles
a week with the rides being 3 x 23 mile loops.....all rather quickly
done so no long lingering on the saddle.....and also full of climbing
so I am out of the saddle more often.

OK........thats my longer term,  non-immediate pressure theory, of how
cycling might give a higher than normal PSA reading
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 18:58 GMT
> Perhaps, we ought to consider then cycle riding for those with enlarged
> prostates due to Prostatitis.  Prostates are normally the size of a walnut.
> If your prostate grows to the size of a baseball and you ride a bike for a
> hundred miles, it may grow to the size of a softball and emit much more PSA
> and pinch your urethra.

I see.....hmmm,   well I see a study down the road......

n = 100
50 with  moderate bph who cycle 150 miles a week
25 with moderate bph who swim
25 with moderate bph who run

After 3 months everyone switch their activity for the following three
months.

OK.....anyway,  with 50% of folks thinking "recent" biking causes
higher  and 50% thinking it does nothing as the few studies indicate.
In the general public and apparently in some medical professionals it
seems the case has not been closed.

As they say in the case of so many dietary modifications,,  well it
can't hurt even if it doesn't slow or halt the progression of PCa or
PSA.
For now, I'll still take 5 to 7 days off prior to testing.

You know, on a entirely different PSA influencing topic,  there have
been some studies indicating that those who are obese get a 11 to 22
percent lower PSA reading than a normal weight individual due to
hemodilution.
My curiosity is what about those, like hard core bicyclists who often
have BMI readings at 19.0 or such.
My guess from some discussion with some of those researchers is that a
person with a 19.0 BMI  might need to substract perhaps .1 to .2 from
their PSA to get a comparable number to a average/normal weight person
in the 23 to 24 BMI range.

Another potential "side effect" of cycling if it induces a very low
body weight.
I.P. Freely - 20 Jan 2009 20:13 GMT
> person with a 19.0 BMI  might need to substract perhaps ...

I hope that's a hypothetical number. Some BMI charts consider 22 as
underweight, and by even the most optimistic analysis 19 is borderline.

I.P.
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 21:17 GMT
> gvk2...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > person with a 19.0 BMI  might need to substract perhaps ...
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I.P.

http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/

Actually the most typical standards area as follows from the National
Institutes of Health...

   *  Underweight = <18.5
   * Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
   * Overweight = 25-29.9
   * Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater

The "normal" BMI used in the studies showing hemodilution were close
ot the upper range of normal.  Thats why I put down 23 to 24.

When I'm at 19.0 I feel skinny but it sure makes climbing easier.
However I might add that the average Tour deFrance participant is NOT
that low.   Not sure exactly where they are but probably in the 21 to
23 range.

I do not think you'll find any BMI chart that considers 22 to be
underweight.

As to the typical 40 to 60 year old American male,  I'm guessing
they're some where in the upper 28 to 29 range..  While the upper
2/3's probably average a bit above 30....
Not quite the 35 where the studies showed the need to subtract 11 to
22 percent from a "safe" PSA level,  but still some differential
compared to the 24 bmi....
I'm sure the hemodilution effect is all on a sliding scale but the
studies did not spell that out.
However when talking to one of the researchers I got the impression
that a 19.0 BMI person could probably subtract .1 from their psa score
or allow perhaps a upper limit .1 higher to the "safe" zone...
Perhaps .2  but he didn't want to go out on a limb.
So a person with a very low bmi gets the reverse of hemodilution.

Not a big deal,  but hey,  we've got a lot of borderline calls in this
area.
I.P. Freely - 20 Jan 2009 22:34 GMT
> the most typical standards area as follows from the National
> Institutes of Health...
>
>     *  Underweight = <18.5

> I do not think you'll find any BMI chart that considers 22 to be
> underweight.

I mentioned that because the first chart Google showed me indicated 22
as the upper threshold for the Underweight class. 19 was deep into
uncharted Underweight territory on that chart.

http://tinyurl.com/94v4w8

My only point was that a man with a BMI of 19 should be very careful
with his health, as he is walking a tightrope, especially with cancer,
not to mention the other hazards of low body weight.

I.P.
gvk2six@yahoo.com - 20 Jan 2009 23:21 GMT
> I mentioned that because the first chart Google showed me indicated 22
> as the upper threshold for the Underweight class. 19 was deep into
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with his health, as he is walking a tightrope, especially with cancer,
> not to mention the other hazards of low body weight.

I don't know how,  but you seem to have found the most distorted BMI
chart I have ever seen.
Just went to the Mayo Clinic... I'm sure they know what they are
doing.
Their range for "normal" also begins at 18.5 just like the other one I
gave

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bmi-calculator/NU00597

I'm afraid you've become too accustomed to what passes for normal on
the typical American street.   I can assure you it is not typical for
many other parts of the world,  nor is it considered more healthy.
I just put my data into the Mayo Clinic and I am 19.2,  well above the
18.5 cutoff for "normal"...
I can assure you I eat a very healthy diet, but I do limit my intake
of animal products,  meats, dairy, oils etc..
Not at Ornish levels,  but only about half of what most Americans eat
in their diet.   Now, thats lowered fat but not necessarily lower
calories.
I eat a heap of food, probably stacked higher then 90% of the folks
here consume.  But I also ride my bike and walk.

My weight has been in this range for several years, never more than 3
pounds lower or higher.
There are no hazards or tightropes that I know of, and by the way,  I
do not have prostate cancer.  I do follow my PSA though.
I agree, that a person with PCa would not want their weight to fall
too low nor too quickly.

Ideally most Americans would lower their weight starting in their
early 30's instead of putting on a pound or two each year.
Seems everything I read about diets that "may" be optimal for prostate
cancer prevention all involve cutting down on animal products, usually
including dairy.
Also happens to be the preferred diet for most cardio-vascular related
conditions.

Now, one last thing.   The BMI calculators usually do not take into
account build.   I'm sure there are men who at my height, weight, and
BMI would actually be "underweight"  even though the charts say its
OK.
On the other hand,  over the past 30+ years in America we've developed
a distorted image of what is normal and what is underweight.
Go to any mall and see what now passes for normal.
Actually the latest report I saw suggested the following...

"Numbers posted by the National Center for Health Statistics show that
more than 34 percent of Americans are obese, compared to 32.7 percent
who are overweight. It said just under 6 percent are "extremely"
obese."

Add up those numbers and you have 72.7% of American adults,
overweight, obese, or extremely obese.

Now, I'm not one of those who would tell someone to dive into some
crazy diet in an effort to lose pounds quickly, but going lower
gradually over many months or years,  is probably a good thing.
Very few reports of malnutrition in American adult males.
 
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