Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2004
Help me plz for further steps..........
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Grp - 28 Dec 2003 14:50 GMT Dear Friends,
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=wjCqb.3439%2 4Fd2.2564%40fe1.columbus.rr.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsingpguy%2Bgroup:alt.s upport.cancer.prostate%2Bgroup:alt.support.cancer.prostate%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26i e%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.cancer.prostate%26sa%3DG%26scoring% 3Dd
By the above posts and replies you may know my case very well. Anyhow a very short description again. My father affected Prostate Cancer (Stage IV) , 2testicles removed. Now taking lupron depo 3.75mg for the last 5months.
PSA level Reference 1.2 0.0 to 4.0 First report after 1st lupron 1.4 0.0 to 4.0 Second report after 2ndlupron 0.6 0.0 to 4.0 Third report after 3rd lupron injection
Nov'03 1.1 0.0 to 4.0 After 4th injection Dec'03 2.6 0.0 to 4.0 After 5th injection.
For the 3rd month it was reduced but suddenly for 4th & 5th months (nov and dec'03) the points goes up. Iam very much worried now, can you guys face any case like this. What could be the problem and how to control it.
My Father checked with Doctor (Urologist) he says nothing to worry , but i dont know whether he told to convenience him or its a fact. Since iam far from him iam very much distrubed.
After the 3rd month PSA result i posted here with PSA points & our friends said the point will go down to 0 or 0.1. But now its getting higher.
Moreover Oncologist recommended this injection for us for 6months, i dont know what he goes to recommend after Jan'04(which is the 6th month). Have any one of you face or heard this kind of situation. Pls write your recommendation or suggestion or whatever it is.
Is it he need to change his food habit , by born itself we are vegetarians only. If know pls recommend some food things.
regards
PS : Just for your reference here i paste the link which i posted earlier.
Alan Meyer - 29 Dec 2003 02:20 GMT > Dear Friends, http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=wjCqb.3439%2 4Fd2.2564%40fe1.columbus.rr.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsingpguy%2Bgroup:alt.s upport.cancer.prostate%2Bgroup:alt.support.cancer.prostate%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26i e%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26group%3Dalt.support.cancer.prostate%26sa%3DG%26scoring% 3Dd
> By the above posts and replies you may know my case very well. Anyhow > a very [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > PS : Just for your reference here i paste the link which i posted > earlier. I'm sorry to hear about your father's condition.
I'm not a doctor but here is a possible theory about what is happening. The removal of the testicles removed the source of 90-95% of the testosterone in your father's body. Eventually, in most men, "hormone refractory" cancer cells will begin to grow in spite of the reduction of testosterone. The Lupron injection probably suppressed the remaining testosterone and had a small positive effect, but by the time the Lupron was given, the hormone refractory cancer may already have become a significant part of the total amount of cancer in the body. If so, the Lupron injection was probably worth doing because it may have added a few months of life, but it wouldn't do much and not do it for very long.
I do not remember whether your father had any treatment other than removal of the testicles and Lupron. Did he have a prostatectomy operation to remove the prostate, or radiation to "de-vitalize" it? If not, those treatments might cure him - if the cancer has not spread beyond the prostate region.
If the cancer has already spread outside the prostate region, then what your father's doctor has already done is probably all that can be done.
There are some experimental treatments being tested in the U.S. that might, or might not, add a small amount of time (weeks or months) to a prostate cancer patient's life but, to my knowledge, there are no cures and nothing that is even known for sure to be of significant help.
There is evidence that good diet and exercise may help to prevent cancer but, to my knowledge, diet and exercise are not alone able to prevent it, and cannot cure it after it's there. I am not aware of any studies showing that special diets will even slow down the growth of the cancer - though some doctors seem to recommend good diets as a way to keep the body as healthy as possible regardless of the presence of cancer.
I wish the best for you and your family.
Good luck,
Alan
Bill Denton - 29 Dec 2003 16:00 GMT I'm sorry to hear that his PSA is rising despite the Lupron but, as I have stated twice before, I do not understand how Lupron could be expected to be of any great benefit in a man who has had an orchiectomy, so I am not at all surprised. On the other hand, an anti-androgen like Casodex may have been and still might be of some benefit because it would block out the small amounts of testosterone [I'm simplifying here] produced by the adrenal gland. If his PSA continued to rise on Casodex then that would be an indication that he was indeed hormone refractory. Please do an Internet search for hormone refractory prostate cancer. I also suggested twice before that you look into clinical trials but you have not said whether you did or whether you even have access to them over there. If you do, then do it. You can't just sit by and blindly accept the doctors' advice - be proactive and do your homework. There still may be a window of opportunity but the clock is ticking.
Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 Memphis
Grp - 30 Dec 2003 03:11 GMT > I'm sorry to hear that his PSA is rising despite the Lupron but, as I > have stated twice before, I do not understand how Lupron could be [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > RP 2/12/02 > Memphis Thanks Bill for your reply.
See as you said after orchiectomy the lupron may not do great things but what i heard is from our friends it will try to convince our mind that it has enough testosterone and not/stop to produce more. Anyway reg. this i wil talk to Doctor and as you said i will do more homework . Thanks brother for your great help. Can you pls tell me is the casodex is more powerful then lupron?. Is casodex is in injection or tablet form? . Is there any side effect for casodex?.
Today iam going to talk to Dr. and will get back to you. As by your advice i'll do search & do more homework for the horomone refractory, and parallelly i intend to know what my Dr. going to do after the 6th injection that is on 19th of Jan'04. I didnt get you what you mention about clinical trials though iam far from them, still i can reach them any time. Pls explain what you are looking about clinical trials i'll immdly post it.
Clinical trials you mean to say , that i have to check whether someone had any horomone refractory or something like that?.Sorry if i ask anything looks silly.
Pls reply... Regards
Bill Denton - 30 Dec 2003 16:01 GMT "See as you said after orchiectomy the lupron may not do great things but what i heard is from our friends it will try to convince our mind that it has enough testosterone and not/stop to produce more. ... Can you pls tell me is the
> casodex is more powerful then lupron?. Is casodex is in injection or > tablet form? . Is there any side effect for casodex?. "
Testosterone is produced mainly by the testicles and in small amounts by the adrenal glands. Lupron does trick "the mind" (actually a gland under the brain) to not send chemical signals to the testicles to produce testosterone. Thus, if the testicles have been removed, there is no need for Lupron. Anti-androgens like Casodex prevent testosterone (actually a form of it called DHT) from being taken up by prostate tissue, so it can take care of any remaining testosterone. It is not more powerful than Lupron - it acts in a totally different way. I'm not sure what forms it comes in but many men in this newsgroup have taken it since it is part of the "total androgen blockade" or "combined" types of hormone therapy. I doubt that it would have any side effects he hasn't already encountered.
"I didnt get you what you mention about clinical trials though iam far from them, still i can reach them any time. Pls explain what you are looking about clinical trials i'll immdly post it. Clinical trials you mean to say , that i have to check whether someone had any horomone refractory or something like that"
He already has metastatic prostate cancer and is probably hormone refractory so he is running out of known treatments. So you look for new treatments that might work or they might not. Most will not, but they are the only chance for anything close to a cure at this stage of the game. If you do a search for "prostate cancer" "clinical trial" and your location, I'm sure you will find something.
Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 Memphis
Danny McCarty - 30 Dec 2003 21:26 GMT Casodex is a tablet that you take every day. It has no effect on the amount of testosterone in the blood. It does retard prostate cancer. I was started on it mainly to reduce the PSA in order to allow radiation treatment, which I finished two years ago. I was taking Casodex and Proscar together- for a year and an half. My PSA tripled within a month after my PCa specialist ordered me off the Casodex. Many experiments are being done with various possible treatments for PCa. Most are chemotherapies or gene "vaccines". They are experiments, called "clilnical trials" My specialist is conducting half a dozen of them or so- I am in one of them. After surgery and hormones, there are no proven treatments for prostate cancer. Clinical trails, getting involved in an experiment, is the only recourse. Radiation at this point is used to relieve pain and delay death a little longer. At this point, I have still had no direct symptoms from the prostate cancer. All my suffering is due to the treatments. ;-}
Steve Kramer - 31 Dec 2003 00:00 GMT > At this point, I have still had no direct symptoms from the prostate cancer. > All my suffering is due to the treatments. ;-} And aint that the bitch of it? I'll bet half of us are dying and only a a handful have had their first PCa symptom. What an odd disease.
 Signature Wishing you a Happy New Year Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .3 .4 .8 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .3 .2 .2 .2 .3 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 Begin Lupron 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .1
POPS@ Pray4Peace - 31 Dec 2003 01:35 GMT This is my first time here. I am a seven year survivor. My PSA was ok, but a biopsy found a rare rapidly advancing CANCER. I had radiation/hormone treatments. My PSA stays at zero! I did get a lot of radiation damage leaving me with constant soreness (sometimes pain) and fatigue. At 70 years old I am thankful to the Great Physician who directed the recovery.
Steve Kramer - 31 Dec 2003 11:47 GMT > This is my first time here. I am a seven year survivor. My PSA was ok, > but a biopsy found a rare rapidly advancing CANCER. I had > radiation/hormone treatments. My PSA stays at zero! I did get a lot of > radiation damage leaving me with constant soreness (sometimes pain) and > fatigue. At 70 years old I am thankful to the Great Physician who > directed the recovery. You mean Dr. Walsh?
Sorry, bad joke.
Welcome to the club that no one wants to join. Rapidly advancing cancer in a 70-year-old with a low PSA is rare indeed. Sometimes they decide to not take treatment it grows so slowly, though I think that's a mistake in almost all 70-year-olds.
What was your PSA? Were you getting it taken annually? Do you know if was slowly increasing over the years or if it just jumped you? How long have you been doing radiation and hormones? Was is external radiation or seeds?
 Signature Wishing you a Happy New Year Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .3 .4 .8 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .3 .2 .2 .2 .3 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .1 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03
POPS@ Pray4Peace - 01 Jan 2004 01:33 GMT I see nothing funny about the post by Steve Kramer in the so called "bad joke" in my acknowledgement that the Great Physician directed my healing -- for my deep faith that GOD did direct the team that treated me . I came here to support and to get support. It would do well also to have correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts!
Steve Kramer - 01 Jan 2004 11:46 GMT I am truely sorry. Geez, this is the second time this year a new poster has been offended by a small joke.
Pops: Please do not run off due to the joke. It had a whole lot more to do with a running debate in this newsgroup about Dr. Walsh and a smattering of other PCa experts. It had nothing to do with my or your belief in God.
I, for one, have a tremendous belief in Him. As do many, many people here. Not all, mind you. We have people from all over the world. While most believe in God, at least Abraham's God, some do not believe in any Higher Authority.
 Signature Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .3 .4 .8 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .3 .2 .2 .2 .3 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .1 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03
> I see nothing funny about the post by Steve Kramer in the so called "bad > joke" in my acknowledgement that the Great Physician directed my healing > -- for my deep faith that GOD did direct the team that treated me . I > came here to support and to get support. It would do well also to have > correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts! Bruce T - 01 Jan 2004 14:24 GMT Steve,
I hope POPS' reaction to your comments does not inhibit your sense of humour. I enjoy your comments and outlook on what can sometimes be a depressingly serious topic.
After all, a sense of humour probably helps in fighting this horrible diease.
Regards and Happy New Year,
Bruce
> I am truely sorry. Geez, this is the second time this year a new poster has > been offended by a small joke. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall > > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts! Steve Kramer - 01 Jan 2004 21:16 GMT My sense of humor has gotten me in trouble since Sister Mary Helena broke a yardstick over my head in the 4th Grade. Even if I were of a mind to, I could not help but broach the humor barrier over and over again.
But, it especially bothers me that Pops, a 7-year victim, obviously reaching out for support, probably having recently gotten some bad news, is so offended by my comment that it dashed his hopes of finding support in the only real PCa Internet support group there is.
Then, when you take into consideration that it was over God, .... well, I'm just mortified. In this NG, I take great pains to not offend others regarding religious vs agnostic; liberalism vs conservativism; democrat vs republican; etc., etc. That is not the case elsewhere. Ever since the old BBSes of yore, I've provoked anger and hatred due to my opinions about religion, politics, abortion, etc.. I'm conservative and Christian .... there, it's out! .... but, now I've upset a man BECAUSE of his religious convictions. It's not easy to accept.
I appreciate your intercession and you may rest easy that if it's my humor you like, you'll get a steady diet of it. But, I do regret the offense that was taken.
> Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall > > > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts! Bruce T - 02 Jan 2004 02:53 GMT Hi Steve,
I believe you cannot control how POPS or anyone reacts to your comments. People "chose", consciously or sub-consciously, how they will react if they do not agree with your comment. POPS obviously chose to get upset; another person will react with understanding and foregiveness, as Heather pointed out.
Your comment was not out of line or inherently offensive, and I bet most of the members here saw the levity, so there is n need to take any responsibility for how anyone else chooses to react.
Keep it up!
Bruce
inci.rr.com> wrote in message news:<E60Jb.115607$031.28969@fe3.columbus.rr.com>...
> My sense of humor has gotten me in trouble since Sister Mary Helena broke a > yardstick over my head in the 4th Grade. Even if I were of a mind to, I [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > > > correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall > > > > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts! Steve Kramer - 02 Jan 2004 11:02 GMT Too true, Bruce. But, it don't hurt to try. Alas, even if successful, he'd probably leave again at the next alternative sex discussion.
 Signature Wishing you a Happy New Year Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .3 .4 .8 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .3 .2 .2 .2 .3 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .1 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03
> Hi Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > > > > correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall > > > > > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts! Heather - 01 Jan 2004 23:34 GMT I agree with Bruce 100%!! It is unfortunate that Pops doesn't see that quite often humour lessens the burden and fear. And doubly unfortunate that he doesn't subscribe to the Christian belief in forgiveness.
I too enjoy your sense of humour. And am guilty of doing the same as well. But we all are different in how we handle things.......when I can muster it up, humour is the best antidote for what is bothering me.
Don't change, my dear. And pray that Pops will read your post and realize that you were only trying to help.
Best......Heather
> Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > correctly read my initial post before incorrectly responding! I shall > > > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful posts! Steve Kramer - 02 Jan 2004 11:01 GMT Thanks, Heather. Though, I am sorry to hear you are having a problem sometimes 'mustering it up.' Ron is still in the driver's seat and very likely will reach 80 without the newer meds and treatment coming out in the next 5-10 years. Take heart.
 Signature Wishing you a Happy New Year Prostate Cancer Survivor (so far), not a doctor PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 PSA .1 .1 .1 .3 .4 .8 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .3 .2 .2 .2 .3 Erection 05/12/2003 @ 48 HTbegins 07/21/2003 @ 48 PSA .1 Lupron 7/03, 8/03, 12/03
> I agree with Bruce 100%!! It is unfortunate that Pops doesn't see that > quite often humour lessens the burden and fear. And doubly unfortunate [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > > > not post here again -- no reflection on all the other tasteful > posts! Larry Wheat - 03 Jan 2004 00:36 GMT Right on, Bruce! I agree with Bruce, Steve --- don't try to take responsibility for other peoples' reactions. Unfortunate, maybe, but not your problem.
Your Christianity comes through and I treaure your humor as well --- thanks for being here.
Larry
> Steve, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Bruce c palmer - 03 Jan 2004 11:02 GMT since i have been out of the loop for a few days when this thread started. i went back and retraced where it went astray. pops made the comment about his bout with pca and that he was still at zero and that is great. but when he makes reference to the great physician, i for one, didn't make the connection as to being of god, even when i went back and read it again. i could have put several references for the great physician because of my medical background.
but if someone wants to give praise for the one side, should they give the same credit for getting it????
sorry, not funny, not a joke, just a serious question that came to mind.
steve, there is a saying that laughter is the best medicine. i still believe that. and i personally don't think you did anything wrong. even when you made the post, you left the comment in there. you could have removed it and nobody would be writing on this thread what they have, but you just brought some humor to a normal dark subject. keep up the laughter for group. i'm in your corner. after all, what would he think if he would have read your comments about the ones who didn't have pca and you said that they have to turn in their memberships?
by the way, off topic, what do fish say when they hit a concrete wall?
DAM
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Grp - 01 Jan 2004 13:25 GMT > Casodex is a tablet that you take every day. It has no effect on the amount of > testosterone in the blood. It does retard prostate cancer. I was started on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > At this point, I have still had no direct symptoms from the prostate cancer. > All my suffering is due to the treatments. ;-} Thanks to all especially to Bill Denton & Danny McCarty.
Now i understand more about clinical trials. Actually in my Father case his PSA raised only for last 2months . Y'day i spoken to our Urologist he said the PSA is under control only (So far the max. PSA is 2.6 (Reference is 0.0 to 4.0))so let us wait till the 6th lupron injection is finished (which is on 3rd week of jan'04). After that we will take test/scan and proceed further. Its looks quite okay for me. What you guys feel?.
Just like to know can i assume if the PSA goes over the reference point (i.e 4.0)in that case only he need horomone refractory treatment?. Reg. the casodex i will talk to him.
Thanks again for your kind help...
Wish You All a Happy New Year :) Regards
Bill Denton - 01 Jan 2004 18:01 GMT "Y'day i spoken to our Urologist he said the PSA is under control only (So far the max. PSA is 2.6 (Reference is 0.0 to 4.0))so let us wait till the 6th lupron injection is finished (which is on 3rd week of jan'04). After that we will take test/scan and proceed further. Its looks quite okay for me. What you guys feel?"
The point I have been trying to make is this: I don't see how Lupron has ANY effect on his PSA at this time. I could be wrong but I think his treatment w/ Lupron alone is the same as no treatment at all. Do you understand what I am saying? - Lupron affects the testicles and he does not have testicles! Tell the urologist that some smartass American says the Lupron is not doing anything, and see what he says.
"Just like to know can i assume if the PSA goes over the reference point (i.e 4.0)in that case only he need horomone refractory treatment?."
NO! 4 is the top of the NORMAL range; i.e. men without cancer. I doubt that it has any relevance to a man w/ PCa and without testicles. Whatever the number is, if his PSA shows a definite trend upward, he is probably refractory.
Happy New Year to you.
Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 Memphis
Grp - 02 Jan 2004 01:49 GMT > "Y'day i spoken to our Urologist he said the PSA is under control only > (So far the max. PSA is 2.6 (Reference is 0.0 to 4.0))so let us wait [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > does not have testicles! Tell the urologist that some smartass > American says the Lupron is not doing anything, and see what he says. Ok i understand clearly. I think Mr.Bill jaded bcos of my reply.Sorry :( Again i'll talk to Urologist and back to you.
> "Just like to know can i assume if the PSA goes over the reference > point (i.e 4.0)in that case only he need horomone refractory [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Whatever the number is, if his PSA shows a definite trend upward, he > is probably refractory. Your doubt really makes some sense. Reg. this also i will talk to him. Thanks again.
> Happy New Year to you. > > Bill Denton > RP 2/12/02 > Memphis Danny McCarty - 02 Jan 2004 06:50 GMT >Subject: Re: Help me plz for further steps.......... >From: grpdocs@yahoo.com (Grp) [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Your doubt really makes some sense. Reg. this also i will talk to him. Thanks >again. Lupron or removal of the testicles takes the food off the table. Casodex tapes the "mouth" of the cancer so it can't eat what's there. Small amounts of "food"(testosterone) are made by the adrenal glands, so Casodex may be of some use. Casodex masks PCa, however, so the PSA is lower than it should be for the actual amount of cancer present. As Bill says, the 4.0 is irrelevant after the prostate has been removed.
>> Happy New Year to you. >> >> Bill Denton >> RP 2/12/02 >> Memphis Grp - 30 Dec 2003 03:39 GMT Reply to Mr.Alan post.
Iam very happy to hear that a lot of people around here to share my feelings . Though iam drenched with worries but still i have the hope to save him for some more years.
> I'm sorry to hear about your father's condition. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > not, those treatments might cure him - if the cancer has not spread > beyond the prostate region. No, Alan. He has'nt take prostatectomy operation bcos its has been spread to pelvis 6 months before by that time they given radiation for him. After that radiation they told us to have the lupron injection for 6months (ending on jan'04). My guesstimate is since its spread other than prostate they might have concluded not worthy for a prostatectomy.
> If the cancer has already spread outside the prostate region, then > what your father's doctor has already done is probably all that can > be done. Ok.
> There are some experimental treatments being tested in the U.S. that > might, or might not, add a small amount of time (weeks or months) to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > as a way to keep the body as healthy as possible regardless of the > presence of cancer. He is very active always and i suggested him to do some exercise and i got some info. from "Prostate cook book". I suggested him to take cabbage,kale,cauliflower, . Tomatoes which contains lycopenes good for cancer. Watermelon,pink grape,guava,papaya. Green tea having polyphenols that also suggested.
> I wish the best for you and your family. Thanks Alan. In our Indian tradition we have a hope, if you blessed by elder people or kind hearted people it will become actuality oneday. Iam very happy to perceive you wishes & i'll proceed with great hope in my future endeavours.
> Good luck, > > Alan Thanks Again :)
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