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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2008Visualization
Does anyone have any pointers on some decent visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? I've ordered a couple of things off line. I've got experience in hypnosis and meditation. No, I won't be relying on that for my treatment. Doofy.... my e/mail is jloomisboy@hughes.net remove the "boy" anyway.......that is from when you tired e-mailing with the fake e-mail > Does anyone have any pointers on some decent > visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, I won't be relying on that for my treatment. > Doofy.... > my e/mail is jloomisboy@hughes.net > remove the "boy" > anyway.......that is from when you tired e-mailing with the fake e-mail Just resent. THanks. > Does anyone have any pointers on some decent > visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, I won't be relying on that for my treatment. I once heard somebody say he spent a half hour each day imagining his white blood cells as little polar bears swimming through his bloodstream, chomping rogue cancer cells. He spent the half hour mentally encouraging them. I suppose that can do you some good if you don't know what white blood cells really are, how they really work, what causes them to bind to cancer cells, what they do when they bind to cancer cells, and how cancer cells can resist the "kill signal" that the white blood cells deliver (they don't actually kill tumor cells, they send a signal to them to commit suicide.) When I say "do you some good", I mean, "make you feel better". I'm a bit skeptical about the actual cancer fighting character of all this. On the other hand, apparently there is some evidence (I haven't seen it myself), that a positive attitude helps in fighting cancer, and maybe visualizations can help with that. Alan >>Does anyone have any pointers on some decent >>visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Alan Do some research on psychoneuroimmunology, if you haven't already. I already know I can control my blood pressure mentally. And I can control transient tinnitus episodes mentally. A big part of the thing is to believe you can do it. [snip] > Do some research on psychoneuroimmunology, if you haven't already. > > I already know I can control my blood pressure mentally. And I can > control transient tinnitus episodes mentally. A big part of the thing > is to believe you can do it. These are not comparable phenomena to cancer. Sometimes I have believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.  SignatureDedman -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >[snip] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >These are not comparable phenomena to cancer. Sometimes I have believed as >many as six impossible things before breakfast. Check this link, you may find it interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology See a quote below from that article. Just ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "Link between stress and disease Stressors can produce profound health consequences. In one epidemiological study, for example, all-cause mortality increased in the month following a severe stressor the death of a spouse.[14] Theorists propose that stressful events trigger cognitive and affective responses which, in turn, induce sympathetic nervous system and endocrine changes, and these ultimately impair immune function [15] [16]. Potential health consequences are broad, but include rates of infection [17] [18] HIV progression [19] [20] and cancer incidence and progression.[21] [22] [23]" > Check this link, you may find it interesting: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of infection [17] [18] HIV progression [19] [20] and cancer incidence > and progression.[21] [22] [23]" Thanks Just. Now we'll see if people actually read it. >> Check this link, you may find it interesting: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Thanks Just. Now we'll see if people actually read it. "If [a], then [b]" does not mean "If [b] then [a]" Dwight wrote: "I already know I can control my blood pressure mentally. And I can control transient tinnitus episodes mentally. A big part of the thing is to believe you can do it." How is the "epidemiological study" (claiming severe stress results in bad health events) relevant for Dwight's idea (ie believing the cancer goes away eliminates the cancer)? >> Check this link, you may find it interesting: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoneuroimmunology [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Thanks Just. Now we'll see if people actually read it. I read it... but I must have missed the part that says I can have an impact on an existing cancer tumor by visualizing doing so ;-) SignatureDedman -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I read it... but I must have missed the part that says I can have an impact > on an existing cancer tumor by visualizing doing so ;-) Dedman, you can do more reading on the subject, or not. What you are doing right now is ridiculing something you don't have information on, and by association, ridiculing me. I wasn't proselytizing PNI to others. I was asking for information on resources for myself. If you're not interested in the subject, fine. If you want to needle me instead, I would suggest doing something more fruitful with your time. >> I read it... but I must have missed the part that says I can have an >> impact on an existing cancer tumor by visualizing doing so ;-) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If you're not interested in the subject, fine. If you want to needle me > instead, I would suggest doing something more fruitful with your time. While your rancor is understandable, realize that we see far too many fringe, often outright ridiculous, straws being grasped at here, sometimes even as sole treatment. We have become highly suspicious when anything outside the mainstream appears, because not only have we been spammed endlessly but have seen men die because their only treatment was drinking their own urine or patiently watching their cancer flourish while waving a Watchful Waiting banner. Another got so hung up on diet that his entire day was consumed by weighing to two decimal places and consuming incredibly detailed lists of "newt hair and chicken lips" by the second-hand on his watch. I visualized a chipmunk with a lab scale and a digital clock, nibbling from a list of two hundred raw foods and supplements as he sliced raisins in half and swallowed in synch with the blinking lower right vertical LED of the SECONDS digit of his clock, but only in odd-numbered minutes on even-numbered days unless the newspaper was left on the wrong step that morning. Yessir ... our eyes glaze over and roll back in our heads after a while, and we just want to scream something like, "Get on with your life and quit obsessing with this crap!" ... but, of course, we don't, because it might sound like we're needling someone. ;-) So don't take skeptics personally. I.P. >>> I read it... but I must have missed the part that says I can have an >>> impact on an existing cancer tumor by visualizing doing so ;-) [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > fringe, often outright ridiculous, straws being grasped at here, > sometimes even as sole treatment. I understand about seeing something that looks like something else that irritated you, and then responding as if it is the other thing that irritated you, and not to the thing in front of you. I do it myself. Particularly on the internet. One has to realize they are doing that "bait and switch" thing for further conversations to be of any use. > If you want to needle me > instead, I would suggest doing something more fruitful with your time. Hmmm...if Dedman's intent was to needle me, seems like he was very fruitful with his time indeed. ;-) >> If you want to needle me >> instead, I would suggest doing something more fruitful with your time. > > Hmmm...if Dedman's intent was to needle me, seems like he was very > fruitful with his time indeed. ;-) At least I have better things to do with my time than respond to my own posts. SignatureDedman -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>> If you want to needle me >>> instead, I would suggest doing something more fruitful with your time. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > At least I have better things to do with my time than respond to my own > posts. Sigh...plonk. > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > These are not comparable phenomena to cancer. True, but they are an indication that we can control autonomic aspects of the body. > Sometimes I have believed as > many as six impossible things before breakfast. It is almost guaranteed though, that if you don't believe you can affect the change, you won't be able to. If you believe it is impossible, it might be for you. It's not a new age thing. It's a field of science. >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > True, but they are an indication that we can control autonomic aspects > of the body. That's true and not exactly new information. However, I don't see any logical progression from that to having an effect on a tumor by "visualizing" doing so. It is similar to believing that I can float above the surface by visualizing it because I can walk by concentrating on it. >> Sometimes I have believed as >> many as six impossible things before breakfast. > > It is almost guaranteed though, that if you don't believe you can affect > the change, you won't be able to. If you believe it is impossible, it > might be for you. Well, that's true. And if you don't buy a lottery ticket you can't win. But a rational analysis says that the difference between a probability of zero and a probability of .00000000000000000000001 doesn't justify much of an investment :-) > It's not a new age thing. It's a field of science. What is the "it" to which you refer? SignatureDedman -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>> [snip] >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > What is the "it" to which you refer? psychoskepticimmunetoinformationism. > Does anyone have any pointers on some decent > visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, I won't be relying on that for my treatment. Hello Doofy, You may want to try the Prostate Alternatives Support Group. I respect and even have dabbled in visualization techniques myself but ultimately believe they are of ones own design and not really transferable from one individual to another. One man's Pacman is another man's "Attack of the 50' Woman" WhiteSoxFan >> Does anyone have any pointers on some decent >> visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ultimately believe they are of ones own design and not really > transferable from one individual to another. Yeah, I'm aware of the individual nature of these things, and how I'd respond less to someone else's generalized recording. I was just looking for ideas for eventually doing my own scripts. I'll try to check that group. Where is it? Just google that name? The conventional treatments are going to be my first line of attack, but a concerted effort to reduce stress, along with an attempt to gear up my immune system, will be ancillary. And likely I'll need some pain management tools in the short term. > One man's Pacman is > another man's "Attack of the 50' Woman" I..er..uh..well..splutter............. ;-) Alan wrote: > On the other hand, apparently there is some evidence > (I haven't seen it myself), that a positive attitude > helps in fighting cancer, and maybe visualizations > can help with that. A positive attitude helps in fighting most issues. It's been a tremendous help in the past 32 years since diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis, and in the 7 years since diagnosed with PCa. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 > Does anyone have any pointers on some decent > visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? > ... > No, I won't be relying on that for my treatment. I think some of us have jumped on doofy in an unwarranted way. I led the charge with my polar bear story, but I think my posting implied more than it should have and treated his point too lightly. Notice that in his original posting he said very clearly that he won't be relying on visualization for his treatment. What he's looking for is psychological techniques that can 1) improve his immune system response and 2) help him deal with the psychological issues, for example stress, that are related to cancer. Those two goals are clearly related. Anything contributing to the second can probably contribute to the first. From a scientific point of view, as I understand it, he's right on both counts. I don't know if there's any psychological technique for enhancing one's immune system, but there is tons of evidence indicating that it's possible to harm your immune system by psychological means. When you are under too much stress, many of your physiological systems work poorly. Think for example of what happens to digestion. Loss of appetite, stomach pain, and nausea commonly accompany stress. So I think it's healthy, appropriate, and medically/scientifically justified to look for psychological techniques that can reduce stress. For at least some people, visualization is one such technique. All I really meant to point out in my polar bear story was something that doofy already knew, namely that the immune system can't always do much about cancer. I should have said that more clearly. However, a patient can make himself physically sicker, as well as a whole lot unhappier, if he is unable to overcome his stress. If visualization helps him, he should use it. Alan >> Does anyone have any pointers on some decent >> visualization/psychoneuroimmunology resources, maybe pre-recorded scripts? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > implied more than it should have and treated his point too > lightly. Thanks Alan. I felt my self getting back into a corner where it felt like I was supposed to start defending PNI to all detractors. I was just looking for info. You're right, I said very clearly and specifically what I was after and what my expectations were. Unfortunately, the IPD raised its ugly head (Internet Personality Disorder) and people started picking comments out of context to shoot from the hip at. Or should that be "to shoot at from the hip"? Anyway, not everyone is an ignoramus, but some of us play one on the internet. > the IPD raised its ugly head (Internet Personality Disorder) Now THAT one I buy hook, line, and sinker. My internet forum time has changed my life and personality considerably and in very specifically identifiable ways, largely for the worse. But it's also taught me many valuable, useful, and interesting facts, trends, opinions, and concepts. I.P. >> the IPD raised its ugly head (Internet Personality Disorder) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I.P. Me too. I can be a real a.shole on the internet. Or at work with my boss. ;-) Shoot from the hip, take one comment out of 10 paragraphs, found by skimming because I can't be bothered to read other people's stuff in detail and see how it hangs together, raise total hell based on a misreading, and discount everything that person has said in the past and will ever say again. Did I miss anything? I mean, what are the repercussions for being like this? Being plonked??? I was being exceedingly nice to the other guy. Why? Because this cancer has made me look at my own sh.t and try to tone it down. Do I really need to stress over insignificant sh.t like this? Do I really want to be like this when I get a glimpse of how precious life is? Then I read something that seemed to infer the other gent had it much worse with his own prognosis than I. Sort of took the wind out of my retorts. Maybe we should start a club, wear tshirts with a big ill-formed asterisk on the chest, and a logo reading "a.sholes with Cancer". Not to be confused with rectal cancer. ;-) > Shoot from the hip, take one comment out of 10 paragraphs, found by > skimming because I can't be bothered to read other people's stuff in > detail and see how it hangs together, raise total hell based on a > misreading, and discount everything that person has said in the past and > will ever say again. Did I miss anything? I mean, what are the > repercussions for being like this? Being plonked??? I'm sure several have PLONKed me, but I'm not going to stop "telling it like it is" because some people "can't handle the truth". Heck, while I'm quoting Howard Coselle and Jack Nicholson, Abe Lincoln also comes to mind, "You can please some of the people ..." I'm not gong to run my life by public opinion polls. The primary attitude changes I see the internet making in me include the discovery that people actually attack others personally just because of their beliefs, resentment of individuals and the whole group who so commonly thrive on that, and increasing sensitivity towards it. It has made a real cynic of me, and I don't like it. I REALLY have to suppress what I think of people like that, and my pulse jumps a measured 15 points when the topic even crosses my mind when wearing my heart rate monitor. That triggers the release of all kinds of harmful endochrines in our bodies. > Then I read something that seemed to infer the other gent had it much > worse with his own prognosis than I. Sort of took the wind out of my > retorts. I read that even before opening his first post. It didn't take much, considering the purview of this forum, to realize what "Dedman" refers to. But aside from that, what I saw was a smart, clever, self-assured, articulate, candid, well-adjusted breath of fresh air facing the rest of his life head-on and head-up. IOW, a role model for all of us. I see a lot of similarities between you two, and would rather see synergy rather than animosity between you guys. Of course, I'd rather not be needing padded underwear, too, but we don't get everything we want. I.P. > Maybe we should start a club, wear tshirts with a big ill-formed asterisk > on the chest, and a logo reading "a.sholes with Cancer". Not to be > confused with rectal cancer. ;-) I got something like that. Black with bright yellow letters, "THAT'S MISTER a.shole TO YOU". I think my wife bought it. > ... > Shoot from the hip, take one comment out of 10 paragraphs, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > person has said in the past and will ever say again. > ... I think that sums up what too many of us do. Many years ago I was a grad student in Philosophy at the University of Illinois. The U of I, like many big universities at that time, saved big bucks by having grad students teach introductory courses at a small fraction of what a professor would have been paid (not that the professors made much money either.) In my classes I adopted a policy of reading every paper that I graded twice over, from beginning to end. I was amazed at how often, on second reading, I found a student to be much more intelligent than he seemed on the first reading. The problem was not that the students had written stupid papers, but that they hadn't expressed themselves very well. Since then I have always tried to give people the benefit of a doubt and never rush to judgment about them - although I confess that I have violated my own principles all too often. I've also learned the importance of speaking and writing well. I wish there were a way to communicate that to the kids in our schools. Alan > I don't know if there's any psychological > technique for enhancing one's immune system, but there is tons of > evidence indicating that it's possible to harm your immune system > by psychological means. For one thing what you can do is stop the harm, and let the body heal itself. But there is some research on people being able to boost their immune response by boosting body processes heretofore thought uncontrollable. And there's also faith healing and "miracles". Not all of which are wishful thinking.
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