Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2008
My compelling proof of milk as a promoter of my cancers
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Bill - 27 Feb 2008 17:55 GMT I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have gathered solid evidence that eliminating milk and dairy foods in my diet stopped my continuous progression of 4 cancers between 1976 and 2005. (basal cell, non Hodgkins lymphoma, adeno- esophageal, and finally prostate.) The story is quite extensive and is best seen on my free web site at www.EndCancrNow.org . Check out each of the pdf documents available. Look at the link there to a chart of my PSA versus time which shows how virulent best quality organic cows milk and cheese added to my diet drove my PSA straight up ending in Gleason 3,3 prostate cancer within 5 months of adding dairy to my diet. Subsequently, I pursuaded two age 55 - 70 male acquaintences of mine with rising PSA to get off dairy, and both recorded significant drops in PSA. My experience in turning off, then turning on, then again turning off simultaneous cancers primarily with dairy product consumption was felt important enough by the folks at radio station WBZ in Boston to dedicate 2 hours of their popular Niteside show to my story last Friday (2/22/08). The topic was so popular that we could not handle all the people calling in. This experience has convinced me that my life-long dairy consumption has been the primary promoter of all my prostate as well as other cancer problems. I don't see milk as a carcinogen; it is the promoter of cancer that accelerates growth of cancer cells of all types into deadly tumors.
Bill - 27 Feb 2008 18:05 GMT > I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have > gathered solid evidence that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > see milk as a carcinogen; it is the promoter of cancer that > accelerates growth of cancer cells of all types into deadly tumors. The Web site above should be: www.EndCancerNow.org - - Sorry for the typo - - Bill
I.P. Freely - 27 Feb 2008 19:32 GMT > milk and cheese added to my >> diet drove my PSA straight up ending in Gleason 3,3 prostate cancer >> within 5 months of adding dairy to my diet. 1. I drank huge quantities of milk for 60 years before incurring cancer or seeing any PSA rise. All by itself, that proves that milk does not, by itself, necessarily cause cancer.
2. My oncs say PC exists for several years before it's observable. They'd laugh at your implication that you're going to to go from healthy to (prostate) cancerous in months.
3. You're hiding behind a randomly generated e-mail address.
4. Therefore I don't even have to go near your website to know that it's just an ad-ridden, maybe even spyware-ridden, sucker site.
You're BUSTED, Bud! Go drink more milk and quit bothering us.
I.P.
Heather - 27 Feb 2008 20:01 GMT >> milk and cheese added to my >>> diet drove my PSA straight up ending in Gleason 3,3 prostate cancer >>> within 5 months of adding dairy to my diet.
> 3. You're hiding behind a randomly generated e-mail address. Dunno about that, but when I ran his "IP" (not you, grin) number, it came up with Dallas Texas as the home of his ISP.
> 4. Therefore I don't even have to go near your website to know that > it's > just an ad-ridden, maybe even spyware-ridden, sucker site. Well, I hate to burst your balloon, but there were not many ads and no spyware....I didn't download his life story tho.
He looks like your average 68 year old white American, so I wondered why there was a link so you could get his blurb in Chinese!!! Odd!!
Besides....I don't believe one word of it either.
Heather 8-))
I.P. Freely - 27 Feb 2008 21:12 GMT > Well, I hate to burst your balloon, but there were not many ads and no > spyware....I didn't download his life story tho. Good. So he may be a sincere spammer.
Whatever.
I'm not about to dig through a pile of pucky even looking for a *pony*, let alone ads or spyware or just more spam. ;-)
I.P. Freely And Kegels ain't helping yet after 6 weeks
J. O' Connor - 28 Feb 2008 01:47 GMT "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddaboutit@noway.nohow> wrote > I.P. Freely
> And Kegels ain't helping yet after 6 weeks I can relate to that I.P. Like you, I have done the Kegels pre and post operation and have noticed NO improvement...Still six to eight dripping pads per day. I am o/k when lying down or sitting, (perhaps I get a job as a mattress tester) but the moment I stand, walk ect. there is no bladder control whatsoever. Looking at it from a technical perspective, I personally can not understand how strengthening the muscles affected by Kegel makes any difference on the bladder spincster or nerves that had obviously been damaged / traumatised. The may or may not improve over time, regardless of the exercises we doo. Anyhow, will continue doing them, as it is not a great sacrifice and who knows, it may help. By the way, I received and used the SqeezerClip and tested it. It works and blocks of the urethra just behind the head of the penis. As you suggested, vigilance must be a priority and I would not keep it on longer then absolutely necessary. Also, it is quite uncomfortable feeling the urine building up at the block-of point. Nevertheless I can now go shopping without the pad overflowing and displaying my wet trousers to the world.
Hang in there and think of the alternative,
John
I.P. Freely - 28 Feb 2008 04:37 GMT > Like you, I have done the Kegels pre and post operation and have noticed NO > improvement...Still six to eight dripping pads per day. John, you're a loooong ways -- months -- from any realistic expectation of continence. These guys who are dry withing weeks are extreme cases by any measure. Why are you even on pads, rather than full-blown diapers, at this stage? Sounds like you're risking a public flood one of these days. I carried wet cats in my pants for many months after my RP, and didn't feel behind the power curve until I was still in diapers 6-8 months later.
> I personally can not understand > how strengthening the muscles affected by Kegel makes any difference on the > bladder spincster or nerves Studies show Kegels help.
I.P.
Heather - 28 Feb 2008 02:53 GMT > And Kegels ain't helping yet after 6 weeks They never worked for me either.....but I hated to rain on your parade, so to speak (G).
I have 2 choices. Pads or a day surgery called Trans Vaginal Taping. And I have looked into it. But I have this peculiar quirk.....I won't have surgery unless it is absolutely a necessity. No face lifts or liposuction for instance. I think people are tempting fate with cosmetic stuff. I consider this borderline cosmetic/necessary.
We have had more than one liposuction death in the past year in Toronto and two of them were young. Early 30's?? Not worth dying for.
But I digress....perhaps it would help if anyone that was helped by Kegels chimed in. OTOH, was it coincidence??
J. O' Connor - 28 Feb 2008 03:57 GMT > But I digress....perhaps it would help if anyone that was helped by Kegels > chimed in. OTOH, was it coincidence?? Damaged, traumatised nerves and bladder neck need to heal, regenerate ect. In my opinion, it would be difficult to determine if any reduction of incontinency is/was due to the body healing or the Kegel exercises. Unless offcourse someone conducted a double bind study?
John
Bill - 27 Feb 2008 18:07 GMT > I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have > gathered solid evidence that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > prostate.) The story is quite extensive and is best seen on my free > web site atwww.EndCancrNow.org. MAKE THAT www.EndCancerNow.org
> Check out each of the pdf documents available. > Look at the link there to a chart of my PSA versus time which shows [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > see milk as a carcinogen; it is the promoter of cancer that > accelerates growth of cancer cells of all types into deadly tumors. A. Black - 28 Feb 2008 20:04 GMT > On Feb 27, 9:55 am, Bill <svpa...@rahul.net> wrote:> I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have > > gathered solid evidence that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > see milk as a carcinogen; it is the promoter of cancer that > > accelerates growth of cancer cells of all types into deadly tumors. There have been statements made by others about the above site that need to be corrected. In particular, that site appears to be sincere and is written by a cancer patient with the focus being on his self experimentation with diet.
The patient had multiple forms of cancer including prostate cancer.
He associates periods of time when his condition worsened with his consumption of dairy and animal protein and periods of time when his condition improved with elimination of these.
Although he does not relate his findings to the literature, his findings are highly consistent with the WCRF report which is probably the most authoritative report in existence on diet and cancer. In particular that report recommends eliminating red meat and states that dairy is a probable risk factor for prostate cancer. The WCRF report is over 500 pages long but you can find a summary of those portions related to prostate cancer with links to the full report here: http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com/2007/11/wcrfaicr-diet-and-cancer-report.html
--- The Palpable Prostate http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com
I.P. Freely - 28 Feb 2008 20:40 GMT > his > findings [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > a > probable risk factor for prostate cancer. Sure, but I doubt the WCRF report says dairy turns cancer on and off within weeks, nor that "dairy is a probable risk factor" equates to "milk causes cancer", which we've disproved very easily.
I.P.
Steve Jordan - 28 Feb 2008 22:22 GMT On February 28, Señor "Freely" replied to A:
> Sure, but I doubt the WCRF report says dairy turns cancer on and off > within weeks, nor that "dairy is a probable risk factor" equates to > "milk causes cancer", which we've disproved very easily. Well, it classifies the evidence that dairy products increase risk of PCa as "limited/suggestive."
Here's a bit of science:
Park Y, et al., "Calcium, dairy foods, and risk of incident and fatal prostate cancer: the NIH-AARP Diet and Health Study." Am J Epidemiol. 2007 Dec 1;166(11):1270-9.
Nutritional Epidemiology Branch, Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics, National Cancer Institute, Bethesda, MD 20852, USA.
"Although the authors cannot definitively rule out a weak association for aggressive prostate cancer, their findings do not provide strong support for the hypothesis that calcium and dairy foods increase prostate cancer risk."
PubMed ID: 18000020 at www.pubmed.gov
PubMed is a service of the US National Library of Medicine.
Each to his own obsession. Wasn't there a fellow here who was sure that he was fighting his PCa by drinking his own urine? The PCa killed him.
Regards,
Steve J
"Macbeth" Act IV, Scene one:
A cavern. In the middle, a boiling cauldron
First Witch: Round about the cauldron go; In the poison'd entrails throw. Toad, that under cold stone Days and nights has thirty-one Swelter'd venom sleeping got, Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.
ALL: Double, double toil and trouble; Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.
Second Witch: Fillet of a fenny snake, In the cauldron boil and bake; Eye of newt and toe of frog, Wool of bat and tongue of dog, Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting, Lizard's leg and owlet's wing, For a charm of powerful trouble, Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
etc. --Shakespeare? Bacon? Someone else?
A. Black - 28 Feb 2008 23:22 GMT > On February 28, Señor "Freely" replied to A: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well, it classifies the evidence that dairy products increase risk of > PCa as "limited/suggestive." Its on page 129 of the report (PDF page 154) where it classifies diets high in calcium as a probable risk factor and milk, dairy and cheese as limited/suggestive.
> Here's a bit of science: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > PubMed ID: 18000020 atwww.pubmed.gov That's just one study and its an observational study, not a controlled randomized trial. Furthermore selectively taking just one study is not comparable to the thorough job the WCRF did using their well thought out evaluation process separating systematic literature review and judgement teams to increase fairness. There will be certain random variation between studies so if you pick one selectively you can prove just about anything.
See the three part article here about why studies can and are sometimes wrong: http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com/2007/08/can-most-studies-be-wrong.html
Minnick's site is based on just one case history and obviously a sample of one does not provide proof of anything. Furthermore association is not causation and there could have been many confounding events not to mention sheer randomness that explain the observations. The fact that the conclusions, however obtained, seem to be consistent with probable or suggestive known results does give one pause though.
As a cancer patient I was already well aware of the possible problems with dairy and red meat and following the WCRF report and similar sources had personally cut out red meat and dairy well before this.
--- The Palpable Prostate http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com
Steve Jordan - 28 Feb 2008 23:57 GMT On February 28 A Black wrote:
>> On February 28, Señor "Freely" replied to A: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > prove > just about anything. And WCRF concluded after a "thorough study" that the evidence for a causal relation between PCa and dairy was, as we are agreed, "limited/suggestive."
It's regrettable that I seem to have touched a sore spot and caused a defensive response.
> See the three part article here about why studies can and are > sometimes > wrong: > http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com/2007/08/can-most-studies-be-wrong.html Some studies can be mistaken in their conclusions. I don't see any relationship to the *NCI* study I cited. If A thinks it's mistaken, let him/her say so and present supporting evidence. Or could it be that this one study was sufficient to convince scientists that it is definitive?
> Minnick's site is based on just one case history and obviously a > sample of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > known results > does give one pause though. Seeming to be consistent with probable or suggestive results is not enough to convince me of anything. Others may differ.
> As a cancer patient I was already well aware of the possible problems > with dairy and > red meat and following the WCRF report and similar sources had > personally cut out > red meat and dairy well before this. Ah. Well then, we now know A's bias.
Regards,
Steve J
Steve Kramer - 28 Feb 2008 22:02 GMT There have been statements made by others about the above site that need to be corrected. In particular, that site appears to be sincere and is written by a cancer patient with the focus being on his self experimentation with diet.
==> And we should trust your opinion because.........
I.P. Freely - 29 Feb 2008 00:09 GMT > There have been statements made by others about the above > site that need to be corrected. In particular, that site appears > to be sincere and is written by a cancer patient with the focus > being on his self experimentation with diet. No need to beat around the bush. It obscures your message, and I have a thick skin. Besides, Heather corrected my experience-based but incorrect presumption that this was simply another in the long line of websites presented only for generating ad revenue. But in today's environment, I don't visit oddball websites. I won't even go to Yahoo! since reading their fine print: they admit our personal data becomes theirs to sell.
Bill needs to understand these things: We see miracle cures offered here very often. Most of them are deliberate scams intended only to gain revenue. Most of them insult many of the well-researched people here. Most of them have significant potential for harm. His cause-and-effect claims are totally unproved. Many of their advocates get extremely vicious when questioned.
I.P.
Alan Meyer - 28 Feb 2008 05:00 GMT > I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I > have gathered solid evidence that eliminating milk and dairy > foods in my diet stopped my continuous progression of 4 > cancers between 1976 and 2005. (basal cell, non Hodgkins > lymphoma, adeno- esophageal, and finally prostate.) ... Bill,
It is possible that dairy products play some role in some cancers. This may have to do with hormones from the cows that are in the milk, with drugs fed to the cows, or to some ingredient of the milk itself. You aren't the only person who has suspected that, and there are studies published in Pubmed that have investigated this. At least some of the studies have found some positive association between some cancers and dietary intake of milk. Some have not.
Here's an example sentence from the published abstract of a study that is far more scientific than yours:
"In this large prospective study in a prostate cancer screening trial, greater dietary intake of calcium and dairy products, particularly low-fat types, may be modestly associated with increased risks for nonaggressive prostate cancer, but was unrelated to aggressive disease."
That was from a study of almost 30,000 men conducted by the Division of Cancer Epidemiology and Genetics, National Cancer Institute and published just two months ago. See: http://tinyurl.com/2zf72r.
Those experts studied a sample 10,000 times larger than yours and found a possible association, but not a large one, and not one related to aggressive cancers.
Cancer is a complex of a great many diseases, and the biochemistry and molecular biology of cancer is probably as complicated as anything human beings have ever studied. Experimenting on your own by eating this or that and then measuring your PSA just isn't going to give you valid information. Science doesn't work that way. We can't understand cancer in that way any more than we can understand astronomy by observing that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and concluding that the sun goes around the earth.
I believe you mean well and that you are sincerely trying to save other men from cancer, but your approach is not scientifically valid and some of the statements you make on your website are provably false.
There are men who have been strict vegetarians for most of their lives who have posted to this website and who have cancer now, or who have already died of cancer.
There was one named Martin Howard, for example, who not only wouldn't touch animal products in any way, he wouldn't even use drugs that had been developed by experimenting on animals. He's dead now, of prostate cancer.
There have been others.
So your statements like:
"If Cancer is present in the body, it can be put into permanent remission by eliminating animal-source foods and chemically-derived foods in the diet."
are just false.
You really need to do some serious study and educate yourself scientifically before you start advising people about how to cure cancer. You aren't doing anyone any favors by spreading false information.
Regards,
Alan
Lud - 28 Feb 2008 15:46 GMT > I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have > gathered solid evidence that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > see milk as a carcinogen; it is the promoter of cancer that > accelerates growth of cancer cells of all types into deadly tumors. There is a good French term that describes this story = "pommes de route"
I.P. Freely - 28 Feb 2008 20:34 GMT > There is a good French term that describes this story = "pommes de > route" Oh, yes ... "road apples", a phrase I grew up with in Alabama. But that takes two or three words. I can say it in half of one word: "Horse".
I.P.
Steve Kramer - 28 Feb 2008 21:59 GMT > I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have > gathered solid evidence that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > web site at > www. Ha!! We have a few "Bills" on this site and I almost fell for this. Need more coffee. I think I'll try it with cream .
Lud - 03 Mar 2008 01:09 GMT > I am age 67 now and have been cancer free for 3 years. I have > gathered solid evidence that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > see milk as a carcinogen; it is the promoter of cancer that > accelerates growth of cancer cells of all types into deadly tumors. Bill
I read your story on the PDF file and I can see what you may be thinking. You had 2 actions at one time and you are ascribing the benefits to milk withdrawal and not all the heavy cancer treatments that you have undergone. You have had enough system cancer treatments to eradicate the low grade prostate cancer that you describe. A PSA of 5 and Gleason grade 3+3 prostate cancer is classified as a pussy cat cancer that can often be contained by dietary measures, but you had serious cancer treatment that coild easily eradicated the small amount of prostate cancer that you had.
Milk may play a minor role in the development of cancer but not in the way a lot of nonsense touted on the internet. There are studies that show a correlation between high dairy intake and prostate cancer. The doctors that have studied this report that the likely cause is that high intakes of calcium (such as from dairy) and low exposure to sunshine, will lower the persons vitamin D level, which recent studies show that it is protective against cancer. The details are not yet fully studied.
As an engineer you should apply a my higher standard of proof than a few anecdotal experiences. Do some serious research on www.scholar.google.com for real scientific studies and read the whole paper and collect overwhelming proof from several credible sources before jumping to simplistic conclusions on a topic that is much more complex than engineering.
I have taken the time to write this as I have gone that path many years ago and have been fighting serious prostate (PSA 34 & Gleason grade 3+4) cancer for 9 years. My current PSA is 2.3 only because of medically proven treatments - some of which work for me and not for others. I Have tried a pure vegan diet, no dairy, flaxseed and flaxseed oil and lots of fish and supplements. After so many failures, I did the research, went to medical conferences and now I understand that it is the medical interventions that keep me going.
Diet and lifestyle do play a role in helping your body exert some control over cancer cells. Get the best information from credible sources. Here a few Dr Charles E. Myers (Snuffy), Dr Steven Strum, Dr Mark Moyad and the Prostate cancer Foundation.
In summary, your theory on diary is still "pommes de route"
Fellows - who hasn't hoped that simple dietary measures would keep us cancer free, especially those that have cancer in their families.
Lud
I.P. Freely - 03 Mar 2008 02:36 GMT > a pussy cat cancer that can often be contained by dietary measures I don't recall seeing any scientific consensus anywhere that diet will "contain" *any* degree of prostate cancer.
> I Have tried a pure vegan diet, no dairy, flaxseed and > flaxseed oil and lots of fish and supplements. But we *have* seen significant studies and very erudite discussions by highly educated cancer treatment "students" showing that flax exacerbates PC. One starting place for details would be Googling the archives of other relevant cancer forums for discussions of flax by Matti Narkia and others. After they debated the impact of flax and walnuts on PC, I threw out my flax products and cut back on walnuts.
I.P.
Lud - 03 Mar 2008 16:14 GMT > > a pussy cat cancer that can often be contained by dietary measures > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I.P. IP
NOW we know - My experiments were 10 years ago when there was no Google and there were no studies. Even now, the final story on all foods remains to be discovered. I believe Mark Moyad has the best approach - "everything in moderation".
Lud
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