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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2008New participant Introduction!
Good Morning Gentlemen- I was diagnosed in 2004 (see details below) My PSA is increasing dramatically despite Lupron and Casodex. Your thought sand input would be much appreciated...... Cheers- Carl  SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 Good morning Carl, My thoughts - focus your attention on HRPC (Hormone-refractory PC, aka Hormone-resistant PC,aka Androgen-Independent PC) treatment options. The simple definition of which is advanced prostate cancer that has resulted in 3 consecutive PSA rises while the individual is still on hormone therapy. An excellent web site is http://www.hrpca.org/ which has a very comprehensive explanations, options, etc. Good luck!! Rich Dear Rich- Thanks so very much for the link, my friend! I appreciate you taking time to pass it along. All Blessings- Carl > Good morning Carl, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Rich SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > Good Morning Gentlemen- > > I was diagnosed in 2004 (see details below) > My PSA is increasing dramatically despite Lupron and Casodex. > > Your thought sand input would be much appreciated...... Cheers- Carl As I understand it, your PSA was was rising and you were at 7+ before your doc added Casodex. And, Casodex hasn't done a damned thing. Is that correct? If so, I suspect that removing Casodex from your regimen will have no effect either. Sometimes that is the next step for someone like me. I was on Lupron for three years before Casodex was added (and my PSA was only 0.145). It's now been almost three years again and my PSA hasn't changed. When it does, I will likely go off Casodex and see what happens (sounds strange, I know). But, in your case, I would expect your oncologist (and I hope you are now dealing with an onc) to put you on chemo. However, he may withdraw Casodex for a quarter just to see what happens. You need to research this and make the decisions. I think your doc has already strung you out too far, but then I'm not a doc. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum Thanks Steve! Correct PSA was at 7 before adding Casodex. No, it has not done a damned thing. I have only been on 50mg daily since late Dec. Hopefully it is not agravating the situation. I'm making an appointment with an urological oncologist at Emory in Atlanta or the Brady Urological Institure at Jonns Hopkins on Monday. My local urologist did a liver function test and I'm scheduled for a consultation with him on the 25th. At the moment I'm living it up riding snomobiles through the Black Hills of South Dakota which is doing wonders for my spirits. >> Good Morning Gentlemen- >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > You need to research this and make the decisions. I think your doc has > already strung you out too far, but then I'm not a doc. SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 On February 16, Carl wrote: (snip) > I have only been on 50mg daily since late Dec. Hopefully it is not > agravating the situation. I'm making an appointment with an urological > oncologist at Emory in Atlanta or the Brady Urological Institure at > Jonns Hopkins on Monday. My local urologist did a liver function test > and I'm scheduled for a consultation with him on the 25th. Welcome to the gang. I note that Carl had an RRP four years ago, but is still seeing a surgeon. He did his job in 2004. Very few uros, who are essentially surgeons, are trained in treatment (tx) of prostate cancer (PCa) beyond surgery. NB: A "urological oncologist" is no more than a surgeon who specializes in *surgical* tx of the uro-genital organs. See the website of the Society of Urologic Oncology (SUO) at http://www.societyofurologiconcology.org/ especially the link to "Membership" and what is required. Note that it is a creature of the American Urological Association. I urgently recommend consulting a genuine cancer specialist, a medical oncologist; preferably one who is well-qualified in tx of PCa. A list of some of them is available via this link on the site of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute: http://prostate-cancer.org/resource/find-a-physician.html Posting a Prostate Cancer Digest on P2P (Physician to Patient) would likely result in a response from at least one of the very best PCa specialists in the country. Free. See http://www.prostatepointers.org/mlist/mlist.html > At the moment > I'm living it up riding snomobiles through the Black Hills of South > Dakota which is doing wonders for my spirits. Brrrrr. If I was doing that I would most certainly need spirits :-( Good luck! Regards, Steve J "I believe it is a mistake for many urologists to be involved in the endocrine therapy of prostate cancer. Let me state why. Urologists are surgeons and many times surgeons rush to a treatment without really understanding what they are doing." -- Stephen B. Strum, MD Medical Oncologist Thanks again Steve. I neglected to mention that Dr. Al Solton a medical oncologist in Macon, Ga who did my most recent (negative) bone scan (when PSA was 7 at 4 months ago) encouraged Casodex as did my local urologist and made me aware that other approaches might be needed soon. I'm of a mind to seek out a medical oncologist at a teaching hospital like Emory or JHopkins. Your input is greatly appreciated Steve!! I'll go to those links right now! Gracias for helping me see corectly amigo! - Carl > On February 16, Carl wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > -- Stephen B. Strum, MD > Medical Oncologist SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > I'm living it up riding snomobiles through the Black Hills of South > Dakota which is doing wonders for my spirits. You got that right! NOTHING takes the weight of the world off my shoulders like hard, mind-altering, adrenaline sports. Diagnosed with PC? Grab a toy and fuhgheddaboutit! Diagnosed with colon cancer? Grab a toy and fuhgheddaboutit! Golden retriever puppy gets smashed by a car? Grab a toy and fuhgheddaboutit! Getting old? Grab a toy and fuhgheddaboutit, and grow younger due to the exercise. > I'm taking calcium supplements, lots of lycopene based dishes, > fresh air, and mderate exercise. I'm also diabetic and I've noticed > that the pomegranate juice plays hell with my blood sugar. More exercise, less juice, low GI foods taken WITH whatever juice you drink, better sleep, etc. will help with the blood glucose levels. The lycopene and pomegranate juice are just disputed rumors at this point, whereas elevated blood sugar is well proven to harm us in many ways and the most common lycopene sources load us up with salt. Just as with Vit D, the balance of good vs evil presents a quandary. > Is Vitamin D-3 important? Yes. The other forms are significantly less beneficial. > How do you ingest the Capsasin? I can only eat so many habeneros. Less habaneros, more milder peppers, and put 'em on almost everything you eat, for flavor. Jalapenos are far more tolerable than habaneros, and yur basic green chiles go with just about any dish. After all, peppers are very healthy foods whether they help fight cancer or not. > I was applying [habaneros] topically for a while. Suuuuure you were! (Maybe only someone who has roasted and peeled fresh hot peppers and not scrubbed his hands before taking a leak would recognize that as a jest.) I.P. hands-free after peeling peppers Amen my Brotherman! Love the way you think I.P. ! Adventure and action are the best medicine. More long distance motorcycling and camping deep in the grandeur of a forgotten forest works wonders. Thanks for the confirmation on D-3 ! I will take your advice on adding lots of milder peppers. I do love em. Regaring the topical caspasasin, I was applying Zostrix ointment liberally. Probablt better to injest than absorb the stuff. http://www.zostrix.com/pages/faqs.asp#3 "How does Zostrix differ from other capsicum products on the market? Zostrix contains purified capsaicin, while many other creams contain capsicum, capsicum oleoresin or capsaicin oleoresin. The last three ingredients are not the same as purified capsaicin. Capsicum and its oleoresin variants contain only small amounts of capsaicin, and they also contain noxious chemicals that work against the pain-relieving effects of purified capsaicin."- From the web page Zostrix also differs from other “knock-off” capsaicin products in that only Zostrix has been tested in large, well-controlled clinical studies. With a topical product, the vehicle delivery system makes a significant difference in the release properties of the active ingredient. Thus, only Zostrix has a vehicle delivery system proven to release the active ingredient in a therapeutically effective manner. Who know if Zostrix helps....Make sense that it might. >> I'm living it up riding snomobiles through the Black Hills of South >> Dakota which is doing wonders for my spirits. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > I.P. hands-free after peeling peppers SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > Good Morning Gentlemen- > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 > PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 02/08? First of all, CRAP! and other bad words. 58? You are a young punk. You don't belong in this club with these foggers and geezers. Carl, I'm right there with you. I went radiation and had good numbers for a year, then my PSA started climbing. Maybe the Casodex will beat it back. It helped Steve K. It didn't help me. Next step is to hook up with the best Medical Oncologist you can find. If you are convenient to JH, go back to them. There're 4 or 5 treatments in the next line of defense, you and your med-onc can decide on something appropriate. I'm hoping to start Taxotere with an IL-6 antigen next month. I figure, we're fighting to hold ground, hang on for 3 or 4 years. There's different technology coming down the pike, PROVENGE and GVAX are two. Neither is available outside of the controlled studies. Neither might pan out, but they might. Write PROVENGE and GVAX in big letters and post that of your fridge. Both will be expensive when available. Keep your medical insurance in effect and if you can upgrade it, crank it up. Although I don't believe in organic food, get off the fast/commercial food and onto the best quality fresh fruits and vegetables, all that healthy diet. I swing by the organic market once a week and pick up pomegranate juice, blueberries, broccoli, tomatoes, etc. Hot pepper, tumeric, curry, mythology says these help. Calcium, Vitamin-D, anything might give an edge. I don't think these will help but it's worth a try. I'm cutting down on red meat too. Fresh air, sunshine (the Vitamin-D thing again), exercise. Anything to get a slight edge. If you have any other health issues, address them aggressively. I got my weight down 20 pounds. Since the treatments will get more and more expensive and take more and more time, keep working, saving, and investing carefully. Vacation? I'll take that one or two days a month at the chemo- clinic. Whatever you do for fun, do it as long as it doesn't break the bank. Have a few laughs. -kh > I swing by the organic market once a week and pick up pomegranate > juice, blueberries, broccoli, tomatoes, etc. Hot pepper, tumeric, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Fresh air, sunshine (the Vitamin-D thing again), exercise. Anything > to get a slight edge. Concur with all these. My personal experience is: Hot pepper (Capsacin): I worked up to 200,000 s.u. a day, but then it started bothering my stomach after several months. I cut back on my Aspirin (to 83 mg) and am starting to build back up the Capsacin. Vitamin D: I take 2000 a day. My doc says my Calcium is too high. It can only be the D. So, I cut way back on Calcium and await blood tests in May. I may have to cut back on Vit D if my Calcium is still too high. And, don't forget Green Tea Extract and Lycopene. Only one study (poorly done) said Lycopene doesn't help. I haven't heard a bad word about Green Tea yet. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum I'm taking calcium supplements, lots of lycopene based dishes, fresh air and mderate exercise. I'm also diabetic and I've noticed that the pomegranate juice plays hell with my blood sugar. Is Vitamin D-3 important? I heard that somewhere. Love those blueberries, raspberries and multi-colored veggies. How do you ingest the Capsasin? I was applying in topically for a while. I can only eat so many habeneros. I'm taking up green tea extract today! Thanks for the input gentlemen! -- Carl >> I swing by the organic market once a week and pick up pomegranate >> juice, blueberries, broccoli, tomatoes, etc. Hot pepper, tumeric, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > done) said Lycopene doesn't help. I haven't heard a bad word about Green > Tea yet. SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > How do you ingest the Capsasin? I buy it in capsules in 100,000 scoval units per capsule. Thanks Steve! How many a day? Taken with food? Do they give you stomach problems? Would you share your source for these? Best wishes- Carl >> How do you ingest the Capsasin? > > I buy it in capsules in 100,000 scoval units per capsule. SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > Thanks Steve! How many a day? Taken with food? Do they give you stomach > problems? > Would you share your source for these? When I first started, I was taking them with food in the morning. I first started with one capsule and worked up to two. It started causing me stomach problems after a few months, so I stopped dead. Now, I'm taking one with breakfast and one with lunch. I also cut back from 325 mg of Aspirin to the recommended 81 mg dose (Aspirin also causes stomach problems). So far, so good. If I have further problems, I'll see if I can find 50,000 scoval unit capsules and spread them out. My wife generally shops for our supplements at GNC, though I think she found the last bottles of Capsaicin on the Internet. >> Thanks Steve! How many a day? Taken with food? Do they give you stomach >> problems? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with breakfast and one with lunch. I also cut back from 325 mg of Aspirin > to the recommended 81 mg dose (Aspirin also causes stomach problems). I've also got to wonder whether aspirin, aka acetylsalicilic acid if I recall its spelling properly, neutralizes the capsaicin, an alkaline substance. Even if it didn't, our stomach acid surely starts neutralizing it and the intestines finish it off. It takes quite a bit of capsaicin to burn me twice. I.P. >> How do you ingest the Capsasin? > > I buy it in capsules in 100,000 scoval units per capsule. Isn't that a lot like taking a steak pill, or an ice cream pill, or a pizza pill, considering how healthy (e.g., more Vit C than an orange) and absolutely *delicious* peppers are? Besides, has ANY extract of ANYTHING yet proven to be as effective as Mother Nature's far better packaged version? I.P. > Isn't that a lot like taking a steak pill, or an ice cream pill, or a > pizza pill, considering how healthy (e.g., more Vit C than an orange) > and absolutely *delicious* peppers are? Besides, has ANY extract of > ANYTHING yet proven to be as effective as Mother Nature's far better > packaged version? I have my peppers "packaged" by Kendy's Chinese Carryout. Hot and sour soup or Szechuan beef with broccoli. Kendy's gives cups of hot oil, that's good on scrambled eggs. I swipe a couple but I leave a nice tip. I like my food on the mild side of hot, just to the point that sweat drips. -kh > I like my food on the mild side of hot, just to the point that sweat > drips. Reminds me of a new lieutenant in our outfit in New Mexico (where the official state question, no joke, is, "red or green"). We took him to lunch, with due warning, to a joint where each burrito covers a large plate and even the mildest ones are quite hot. His uniform shirt was completely drenched by the time he finished it, but that's not the punch line. The punch lines are: 1. When we got back to the office, the boss took one look at him, grinned, and asked him, "They took you to Pablo's, huh?", and 2. The lieutenant kept going back to repeat the same scenario every Friday. Jeez, but their food was great. I know a few people who refuse to eat Mexican food outside of New Mexico; it's that unique because the best-tasting peppers are grown right there and don't ship for squat. I.P. > Jeez, but their food was great. I know a few people who refuse to eat > Mexican food outside of New Mexico; it's that unique because the > best-tasting peppers are grown right there and don't ship for squat. I guess I'll have to include NM on my itinerary. >>> How do you ingest the Capsasin? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > yet proven to be as effective as Mother Nature's far better packaged > version? I do take a pizza pill; lycopene. I cannot get 2000 mg of Vit C out of an orange or 200,000 scoval units... well, I guess I could out of a very hot pepper, but then I would die. > I cannot get 2000 mg of Vit C out of an orange or 200,000 scoval units... > well, I guess I could out of a very hot pepper, but then I would die. Scoville units are a measure of concentration, not quantity, like octane compared to gallons. A 100,000-Scoville, one-gram capsule taken with a glass of water produces a 400-Scoville solution. Food cuts it even further. It's sort of like mixing an ounce of boiling water with a bucket of tap water; it's not going to burn no matter how much of it you drink. One pundit says, "My own favorite retaliation against attack by hot chili pepper is to simply eat another. And if that doesn't work, eat another one ... " Besides, Vit C ingested as food is much less likely to cause the various medical problems associated with Vit C supplements. I.P. > Scoville units are a measure of concentration, not quantity, like octane > compared to gallons. A 100,000-Scoville, one-gram capsule taken with a > glass of water produces a 400-Scoville solution. Food cuts it even > further. Okay, so if I take two capsules, am I still just getting 100,000? If not, what would I need to eat to get what the capsules give me (quantity and type)? > Vit C ingested as food is much less likely to cause the various medical > problems associated with Vit C supplements. How many oranges does one have to eat to for 1000 mg of Vit C? >> Scoville units are a measure of concentration, not quantity, like octane >> compared to gallons. A 100,000-Scoville, one-gram capsule taken with a >> glass of water produces a 400-Scoville solution. Food cuts it even >> further. > > Okay, so if I take two capsules, am I still just getting 100,000? Yup. You're getting twice as much capsaicin, but its strength is still 100,000 Scoville units. One would think that sources which sell capsacin would at least understand and explain their product. I guess the real question is, "What quantity of a given concentration of capsaisin has been shown, or even rumored, to help prevent PC?" > If not, what would I need to eat to get what the capsules give me (quantity > and type)? I'm sure some Googling could answer that, but it still requires an answer to the question above. >> Vit C ingested as food is much less likely to cause the various medical >> problems associated with Vit C supplements. > > How many oranges does one have to eat to for 1000 mg of Vit C? Google presents a wide variety of answers, but a) many fruits and veggies have much more C than oranges do, and b) who (besides Linus Pauling) says extra Vit C is a big deal? I.P. > Yup. You're getting twice as much capsaicin, but its strength is still > 100,000 Scoville units. One would think that sources which sell capsacin > would at least understand and explain their product. I guess the real > question is, "What quantity of a given concentration of capsaisin has been > shown, or even rumored, to help prevent PC?" Well, now that's a problem. It's only been tried, albeit successfully, in rats. > Google presents a wide variety of answers, but a) many fruits and veggies > have much more C than oranges do, and b) who (besides Linus Pauling) says > extra Vit C is a big deal? The first time I've heard of its benefits was Dirk Pearson (sp?) in the 1980s. At the time, I was researching for my father. I read it again a couple of times about the turn of the Millennium when I was researching for myself. > I do take a pizza pill; lycopene. > > I cannot get 2000 mg of Vit C out of an orange or 200,000 scoval units... > well, I guess I could out of a very hot pepper, but then I would die. How big is that pizza pill (in whatever measure they use, units, RDAs) and where do you get it? Is there a good brand? I've been going the fresh fruit route but oranges are about to go out of season. During the peak citrus season, I have one orange a day instead of a Kit-Kat bar or Milky Way. The other reasons for doing my healthy-idiot diet is that the chemo can slam a guy. I want to be able to ride that out, as easy as possible. I'd hate to miss a silver-bullet, recombinant DNA, magic cure in 2012 because a stroke or heart attack got me first. -kh >> I do take a pizza pill; lycopene. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > How big is that pizza pill (in whatever measure they use, units, RDAs) > and where do you get it? Is there a good brand? Depends on whether I want a personal, medium, or large; traditional or pan crust :-) I don't know. Again, my wife buys them and currently I'm out. However, I did find that she buys all our supplements now at DrugStore.com. > I'd hate to miss a silver-bullet, recombinant DNA, magic cure in 2012 > because a stroke or heart attack got me first. I'm the opposite. I'd hate to miss out on a perfectly good coronary in 2012, just to painfully whither away in 2015. > And, don't forget Green Tea Extract and Lycopene. Only one study (poorly > done) said Lycopene doesn't help. I haven't heard a bad word about Green > Tea yet. I drink a quart of green tea a day, which is not as much as it sounds. I get a 20 ounce bottle from the snack stand at work and I drink my home brew. I don't measure it out but it's green tea and ginger root steeped for 10 minutes. I add about 1/4 pomegranate juice and 1/4 blueberry juice that I get from the organic food store. I figure I have to drink something and this is actually a nice combination. The first time I made it, I used too much ginger and it was hard to choke down. I slice a smaller amount of ginger and toss it in the pot with 4 or 5 green tea bags. I don't think this will help but since it's essentially zero additional cost and effort over drinking a diet Pepsi, that's what I drink. I also walk and stretch as much as possible. SOMETIMES its walking to the 7-11 for a Polar Bar but, hey, it is some exercise. -kh My new beverage of choice kh! Thank you sir! >> And, don't forget Green Tea Extract and Lycopene. Only one study (poorly >> done) said Lycopene doesn't help. I haven't heard a bad word about Green [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > -kh SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 >> I swing by the organic market once a week and pick up pomegranate >> juice, blueberries, broccoli, tomatoes, etc. Hot pepper, tumeric, [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > done) said Lycopene doesn't help. I haven't heard a bad word about Green > Tea yet. To the above, I'd suggest looking at adding Tumeric, Selenium and Calcium. Because of the sugars in pomegranate juice, I take pomegranate capsules (Costco recently had a nice price for it in those Costco neighborhood-size bottles), and because I'm too lazy to make green tea, I take green tea capsules. Like everyone else in this NG, I have no idea if this stuff really helps, but the cost is minor to trivial, as are the risks, and it does help me feel like I'm doing something to supplement the conventional medical stuff. Alex On Feb 16, 6:43 pm, "Alex" <tuchasoffentisch@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com> wrote: > Because of the sugars in pomegranate juice, I take pomegranate capsules > (Costco recently had a nice price for it in those Costco neighborhood-size > bottles), and because I'm too lazy to make green tea, I take green tea > capsules. Too lazy to make green tea? That's pretty lazy. We're not talking about dressing up in a kimono and doing the ritual tea ceremony for the Emperor of Japan. I boil water, turn off the heat, and dump some tea bags in. The pomegranate and blueberry juice is the sweetener for my tea. I don't overdo it. > Like everyone else in this NG, I have no idea if this stuff really helps, > but the cost is minor to trivial, as are the risks, and it does help me feel > like I'm doing something to supplement the conventional medical stuff. Exactly, maybe it'll let me hang on until some molecular biologist cracks puzzle. Most likely it won't do a thing. -kh >>> I swing by the organic market once a week and pick up pomegranate >>> juice, blueberries, broccoli, tomatoes, etc. Hot pepper, tumeric, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Alex Thank you Alex! Very sensible suggestions! I can't afford not to try these at this point. I really appreciate all you guys for responding- Carl SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > Although I don't believe in organic food, get off the fast/commercial > food and onto the best quality fresh fruits and vegetables, all that > healthy diet. That is probably the soundest approach from a purely physiological medical standpoint. But, personally and ultimately, I reserve the right to catch up on the hundreds of pizzas, chocolate malts, barbecued ribs, donuts, cheesecakes, and dark chocolate Milky Ways I pretty much abandoned 25 years ago. It takes years to decades for a bad diet to harm us, so once I'm convinced I don't HAVE a lot of years left, I'm going to add all that otherwise deadly crap to my long-time delicious very healthy foods. It will do no harm at that point, I can burn off most of it in the gym for a while, and I expect it to do a lot of good for my attitude at that point. If I can't defeat he nearest alligator, maybe I can distract the SOB with food. And, oh yeah, there's also all the last-ditch anti-cancer treatments, but there's no reason I know of that I can't also enjoy The Outback Steak House Diet occasionally as long as my appetite still works. Each of us must choose which is more important to us and our immediate family: the ultimate stretched-out length of our lifeline, or the area beneath the curve. I.P. IP- I can relate to your attitude, I have a close personal friend who has a top notch chef and we travel frequently to remote locals enjoying the gourmet fare. About 3 days at a time, 4 times a year, but I wouldn't trade those feasts for anything! - Tell it, my friend! - Quality of life sure matters to those of us looking down a gun barrel with this PCa! - Cheers- Carl >> Although I don't believe in organic food, get off the fast/commercial >> food and onto the best quality fresh fruits and vegetables, all that [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I.P. SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 Thanks KH! - Yep, I'm just a puppy alright. I failed to mention that my dad died of PCa at age 65 in 1980. I went through the whole drill with his case. He had extensive bone metastasis at the time of diagnosis. I'm walking to the fridge right now and putting my sticky note with PROVENGE and GVAX on the door right now. I have heard of Taxotere but the IL-6 antigen is unknown to me. Thanks so very much for your input, my friend! Cheers- Carl >> Good Morning Gentlemen- >> [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > -kh SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > Yep, I'm just a puppy alright. I failed to mention that my dad died of PCa > at age 65 in 1980. I went through the whole drill with his case. He had > extensive bone metastasis at the time of diagnosis. Then let me add (having lost my father to PCa in '82), your disease is possibly identical to his, but the treatments are a generation (or two) apart. My father (and probably yours) went through surgery after mets were found, radiation that involved cobalt, ADT that involved estrogen, and chemotherapy that was like using a shotgun to kill an ant. Modern treatments include surgery based on PSA + DRE + biopsy, radiation using particle accelerators aimed by a computer, three levels of ADT that don't cause near the problems estrogen did, and chemotherapy that is more like a sniper rifle (slight exaggeration, perhaps). SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum >> Yep, I'm just a puppy alright. I failed to mention that my dad died of PCa >> at age 65 in 1980. I went through the whole drill with his case. He had [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > cause near the problems estrogen did, and chemotherapy that is more like a > sniper rifle (slight exaggeration, perhaps). ------------- Dear Steve- So sorry to learn that you lost your dad to this beast as well. It was the hardest thing in my life watching my dear dad suffer and die from PCa in 1980. He had an orchiectomy in 1979 first. His bone lesions were so abundant when diagnosed! I remember looking at his bone scan with "hot spots" everywhere. His golfing buddy and good friend was a radiation oncologist. I sat with them both as he examined the bone scan. Dad asked him what he would do as far as radiation treatment if HE has this scan. He said, "Frankly I'd go golfing and enjoy my life to the fullest" and that's what he did. He lived 2 years after diagnosis and the last year was just horrible. We couldn't control the pain sufficently. SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > Good Morning Gentlemen- > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 > PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 Carl........sorry to hear news. After all the ADT it's disheartening. Stay strong! What about your scans? Any evidence of metastatic disease? Do you feel any pain? I presume you are seeing one of the med oncs at JHKCC? Here is a good reference from PCRI........ http://www.prostate-cancer.org/resource/advancedprostatecancerhandbook.html Other than that I would suggest researching what Hopkins or NIH have a trials. Chemo is generally an option for metastatic disease. Your med onc (Eisenberger, Pilli, Carducci) can explain those options and put you in touch with a research nurse. Here is a link to JHKCC trial info. http://www.hopkinskimmelcancercenter.org/clinicaltrials Good luck to you. Thank you for yor kind response DominicM ! and thanks for the links! No pain, no evidence of metastatic disease. I had a clean bone scan 6 months ago when PSA was approx. 6. Who knows if it's clean now at 13.7. I speak with Dr. Pat Walsh at JH ocassionally and Eisenberger read my biopsy results and told me that I was not a candidate for some promising chemo in 2004. I will speak with Pat Walsh next week and solicit his advice. I feel very lucky to have him as my doctor. I have great respect for him. The saddest day of my life however was when he came into my room after RP surgery and asked me "Are you a religious man? I knew what that question meant. Positive and agressive in the lymph tissue. Not what i wanted to hear. Cheers- Carl >> Good Morning Gentlemen- >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Good luck to you. SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 Hello Carl, Your first step should to measure your testosterone. If at castrate level (<20 ng/dL) your PSA elevation represents androgen resistance or perhaps independence. If this is so, stopping Casodex is advisable since it might be feeding the cancer rather than blocking the androgen receptor. If testosterone is not at castrate level, you might consider adding low dose Ketoconazole as secondary androgen deprivation maneuver to your ADT2 present protocol. From the information provided you have systemic disease and you need to consult a medical oncologist as soon as possible and maybe consider attacking your aggressive cancer with taxane chemotherapy rather than undergoing a secondary hormonal treatment as mentioned above. Time is important. Wish you the very best possible outcome. RalphV www.pcainaz.org/phpbb3 > Good Morning Gentlemen- > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 > PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 Dear RalphV- Thank you so very much for the specific suggestions. I believe I had a testosterone test as well as the liver function test last week. I'm awaiting results. Is Androgen independence the same thing as hormone refractory? What are the side effects of low dose Ketoconazole and taxane chemotherapy? I greatly appreciate your analysis and gracious response. I am aware of the urgency. Good to learn that the Casodex treatment may be causing me harm rather than benefit. I can't seem to get a commection to : http://www.pcainaz.org/phpbb3 Thank you, my friend- Carl > Hello Carl, > Your first step should to measure your testosterone. If at castrate [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 >> PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > I can't seem to get a commection to : > http://www.pcainaz.org/phpbb3 Try http://www.pcainaz.org/phpBB3/ Steve J Thanks! >> I can't seem to get a commection to : >> http://www.pcainaz.org/phpbb3 > > Try http://www.pcainaz.org/phpBB3/ > > Steve J SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 <snip> What are the side effects of low dose Ketoconazole and > taxane chemotherapy? I'm taking calcium supplements, ..................... Is Vitamin D-3 important? <SNIP> Hi Carl Just came across your posts - a few comments from my experiences. I have been battling the biker gang cancer cells for 9 years now - my current PSA is 2.28. Recent studies have shown that men with high calcium intake are more susceptible to PCa. Dr Myers has explained this as - high intake of calcium drives down the vitamin D level - it is the vitamin D that is protective against cancers. Generally we don't need calcium supplements if our intake of vitamin D is high enough (it helps absorb the calcium from the food). It is important for PCa patients to have ta high Vitamin D level - checked with a blood test for 25OH-D. Once the vitamin D level is up high, the blood calcium level is monitored to have it above the minimum reference range and that it must not exceed the upper range level. I am just off Keto for a break - I was lucky as it worked better for me than ADT and Taxotere. Keto is easier to tolerate than Taxotere - both can be toxic - it varies greatly between patients. With Keto - the key prevention of toxicity was to have a daily BM (the drug is cleared from the body by the bowels). Taxotere was very complicated for me - too long to write about it. I can email you a list of countermeasures that I found helpful for myself. There are many known treatments that can work before starting chemotherapy - it is a matter of trying as many as possible to find the treatment that works for you. Good luck ..... Lud > <snip> > What are the side effects of low dose Ketoconazole and [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Good luck ..... Lud ------------------ Thank you for your input Lud! - Carl SignaturePSA 19 07/2004 @ 55 12 needle Biopsy 07/2004 G7 T2c RRP 09/2004 @ Johns Hopkins by Dr. Pat Walsh positive margins G8 in most lymph nodes sampled Post Op PSA 19 30 mg Lupron began 12/2004 and every 4 mo after PSA .069 -.079- 1.15-1.35- 2.23-4-7.18-13.70 50 mg Casodex added daily 12/07 PSA 02/07 13.70 @age 58 > .......... > Recent studies have shown that men with highcalciumintake are more [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > ....... > Good luck ..... Lud Lud, It is an interesting theory that Dr. Myers presents, but is there any evidence to back it up? I have never heard of Vitamin D influencing calcium absorption. The only factor that I know of is pH, with the higher the pH the lower the absorbtion rate. E.g., calcium carbonate typically raises pH up to 6.5, at which point only 2% of the calcium gets abosrbed. If you don't take calcium along with Vitamin D, then your blood calcium level will increase, but all that I've read indicates that this is because the body leeches the calcium out of the bones because the Vitamin D needs it. Also, I know of no convincing study indicating that calcium increases the risk of prostate cancer. When dealing with calcium intake it is important to discount any study involving calcium carbonate (because of the high pH) or milk as the source of the calcium. In the case of milk, it typically is supplemented with Vitamin D2 (which many believe may be dangerous at worst and worthless at best) as well as slightly raising pH plus having lots of other factors besides calcium, rendering any correlation "if lots of milk is bad then lots of calcium is bad" scientifically total nonsense. The interesting question is why does very high doses of Vitamin D cause hypercalcemia? My own theory is that it is due to the lack of adequate calcium in the diet, which is why the calcium is leeched from the bones. At some point, if the Vitamin D dose becomes high enough, it is impossible to get adequate calcium from diet alone. Finally, it is essential to have adequately high levels of calcium in your blood if you are undergoing ADT. Low levels of T kill PCa cells due to calcium overload. When along with ADT, a drug is administered that blocks the ionophores that allows calcium ions to flow into the cell, then ADT becomes incapable of killing PCa cells. Ed Friedman > It is an interesting theory that Dr. Myers presents, but is there any > evidence to back it up? I have never heard of Vitamin D influencing > calcium absorption. see http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002405.htm "Vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin that helps the body absorb calcium. Fat-soluble vitamins are stored in the body's fatty tissue." The only factor that I know of is pH, with the > higher the pH the lower the absorbtion rate. E.g., calcium carbonate > typically raises pH up to 6.5, at which point only 2% of the calcium > gets abosrbed. If you don't take calcium along with Vitamin D, then > your blood calcium level will increase, but all that I've read > indicates that this is because the body leeches the calcium out of the > bones because the Vitamin D needs it. > seehttp://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002405.htm > > "Vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin that helps the body absorb calcium. > Fat-soluble vitamins are stored in the body's fatty tissue." Safire, I stand corrected. I should have googled before posting. The articles that I found indicated that VItamin D increases active transport of calcium in the intestines. Do you know of any article that indicates that taking just Vitamin D with no calcium would be sufficient to obtain the RDA of calcium? Ed >> seehttp://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002405.htm >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ed No I don't. After having read Consumer Report's recommendation to take 400 to 800 IE of vitamin D daily (as not enough is converted from sunlight) to strengthen bones and boost immunity, I discovered the local drugstore only sells vitamin D in combination pills with calcium. The risk, of course, is that you get an "overdose" of calcium (ie > 2500 mg) which may result in kidney stones. >> No I don't. After having read Consumer Report's recommendation to take > 400 to 800 IE of vitamin D daily (as not enough is converted from > sunlight) to strengthen bones and boost immunity, I discovered the local > drugstore only sells vitamin D in combination pills with calcium. The > risk, of course, is that you get an "overdose" of calcium (ie > 2500 mg) > which may result in kidney stones. Summary of the studies as I remember - Vitamin D and calcium work together. If your intake of calcium is high then the body lowers the amount of vit D stored. If the vitamin D level is raised then less calcium needs to be ingested as absorption of calcium is increased. Each persons metabolism is different. In my case I have been on 10,000 IU vit D3 and 1000 mg calcium supplement and my blood calcium always stayed at the bottom of the range. When on high vit D, my endocrinologist warned me to monitor the blood calcium for hypercalcemia - some patients are susceptible. Which is more important for cancer patients -the studies show vit D - it keeps the cells healthy but ADEQUATE calcium is essential to maintain blood calcium within the reference range. I'm trying to summarize it in a nutshell - the studies are easily accessible on Google Scholar. Lud >> .......... >> Recent studies have shown that men with highcalciumintake are more [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > evidence to back it up? I have never heard of Vitamin D influencing > calcium absorption. Ed, I went on heavy doses of Vitamin D and then had my levels checked. Found out my Vit D levels were just fine: 42 (Normal 20 to 100). However, my Calcium went too high: 10.4 then 10.5 (Normal 8.6 to 10.2). I called the phamacological doctor who recommended the Vit D and she said that the Vit D helps the body absorb Calcium. So far, I've stopped taking extra Calcium. Will let you know what happens in May. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04, <0.1 2/12/08 Non Illegitimi Carborundum On Feb 21, 2:20 pm, e...@math.uchicago.edu wrote: > Lud, > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Ed Friedman Studies on the role of vit D and cancer have been rolling in recently. Try Google scholar and limit the hits to the last 3 years - for "vitamin D" & cancer and also calcium and cancer. You should get good info. Dr Vieth in Toronto has done the pioneering studies on vitamin D. Let me know if you did not find answers to all your questions. While I have filed away somewhere all the studies - finding them on my computer is not easy. Lud Lud
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