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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2008May be gross to some
Ä Area: Fido-FN_SYSOP International Fidonet Sysop ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Msg#: 344 Date: 02-12-08 13:21 From: Jeff Smith To: All Subj: OUCH!!! ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Hello everybody. Ok, for some this might be gross. Have you heard or remember hearing the saying "Don't piss on an electric fence?" Normally electric fences are powered by 120v or even 220v. There was one particular fence powered by a three phase setup. Typically 120v=1ph, 220v=2ph, etc. Well one guy happened to releive himself on such a 3 phase powered fence. The result can be seen at: http://tinyurl.com/35bxv9 Jeff -!- GoldED+/W32-MINGW 1.1.5-b20070503 ! Origin: Twin_Cities_Metronet - region14.us (1:14/5) ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 Yes... this is gross. Not funny... Might be better to avoid posting this kind of stuff... >Ä Area: Fido-FN_SYSOP International Fidonet Sysop >ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 On February 13, Slobodon replied to El Jefe: > Yes... this is gross. Not funny... Might be better to avoid posting > this kind of stuff... Not only that, but it's a phony story, too, though the photo is accurate. The injury occurred due to excessive post-circumcision diathermy treatment on a 38-year-old man in a Chinese hospital. See http://www.snopes.com/photos/medical/electricfence.asp Regards, Steve J "A man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe." -- Euripides > Yes... this is gross. Not funny... Might be better to avoid posting this > kind of stuff... Good morning, Slowbodon. Alway nice to hear from lurkers. Would you mind telling us of your cancer?  SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04 10/11/07 Non Illegitimi Carborundum -=> Quoting Slobodon2007@gmail.com to All <=- > Yes... this is gross. But you read it. Even with the warning, you read it. That requires at least a single-digit IQ, but I doubt yours is double-digit. And you loved it so much, you quoted the URL from my post so anyone who missed it the first time would have another chance. > http://tinyurl.com/35bxv9 ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 > Have you heard or remember hearing the saying "Don't piss on an > electric fence?" Normally electric fences are powered by 120v [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/35bxv9 I pissed on an electric fence once; the kind they use for cattle containment. It was trampled down into the grass and I didn't see it. I was 10 and it definitely got my attention, but nothing like this. Not even a burn. > From: Jeff Smith > To: All > Subj: OUCH!!! [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > happened to releive himself on such a 3 phase powered fence. > The result can be seen at: Electric fences, such as are used for containing animals and such, do not have that type of voltage available on the working end of the equipment. Regardless of what voltage powers the device, 110 vac, 220 vac, or even battery or solar, the voltage that goes to the containment wire is of high voltage and very low amperage. It is also pulsed, intermittent. The high voltage present gives the jolt, but cannot do real damage. Power consumption of the device is so low I can't imagine why one would have a 220 volt model, and I sure cannot fathom any need for a 3 phase model. No matter what the input voltage is that powers the device, the charger, the output voltage on the wire cannot directly cause damage to man or beast. Regardless of what voltage powers the device, 110 vac, 220 > vac, or even battery or solar, the voltage that goes to the containment > wire is of high voltage and very low amperage. It is also pulsed, > intermittent. With regard to human/animal tissue, there is no such thing as "high voltage" with "low amperage". The amps are the result of the body's resistance which is low enough to cause sufficient current flow for a major zap even with relatively low (110V) sources. It is the pulsed part that saves the cow and you - the fact that it lasts for only a very short time interval. I assure you, during that short time interval there is high amperage, hence the jolt. If it were continuous, you (or the cow) would be dead. Dave Perry > Regardless of what voltage powers the device, 110 vac, 220 >> vac, or even battery or solar, the voltage that goes to the containment [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >continuous, you (or the cow) would be dead. >Dave Perry The internal resistance of the device limits the current for a given voltage (and load resistance). To get the high voltage, they typically use a high ratio transformer, the secondary having *many* turns to multiply the primary voltage. These turns are made of very fine wire and their total length is significant, the end result being high internal resistance. So long as the load current is low, it still generates a high voltage across the secondary. As soon as you draw any current, most of the voltage drops across the internal resistance of the secondary windings of coil. I would still not want to test it with my penis. :) Larry > djperr...@sbcglobal.net wrote: > > Regardless of what voltage powers the device, 110 vac, 220 [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Larry Larry, please educate me. As soon as the cow (or penis if you prefer) touches the "hot wire" there has to be a large though brief current flow that causes the electric shock. No current, no shock. Are you saying that as soon as that happens, this current flow which runs through the secondary windings then causes a voltage drop within the windings resulting in less voltage available to the cow - hence, end of shock? What does "pulsing" do given that the whole thing is AC anyway? Is each cycle of the AC the pulse others have mentioned? When the voltage and current goes to zero (twice each cycle) does the whole process start over again so the cow gets zapped 120 times per second assuming the cow isn't smart enough to pull away after the first few cycles? Incidently, years ago I knew an old guy who could put his thumb on a hot wire (110V) and grab a ground wire with his other hand and endure that with no ill effects. Turns out, he had a large (poorly conducting) callous on his thumb that reduced the current flow through his body to manageable levels. He wouldn't do it with any other finger, nor the tip of his penis though nobody ever asked. He's dead now but not from electric shock. Dave Perry > As soon as the cow (or penis if you prefer) > touches the "hot wire" there has to be a large though brief current > flow that causes the electric shock. Current, yes. Large, no. A few thousandths of an amp is uncomfortable in an arm; it can kill if through the heart. > What does "pulsing" do given that the whole thing is AC > anyway? Is each cycle of the AC the pulse others have mentioned? > When the voltage and current goes to zero (twice each cycle) does the > whole process start over again so the cow gets zapped 120 times per > second assuming the cow isn't smart enough to pull away after the > first few cycles? Today's electric fencers typically zap the cow from a charged capacitor under electronic control. The output is one one-hundredth-of-a-second DC pulse each second. The zappee has .99 seconds out of each second to jump or fall away. I.P. >Larry, please educate me. As soon as the cow (or penis if you prefer) >touches the "hot wire" there has to be a large though brief current [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >second assuming the cow isn't smart enough to pull away after the >first few cycles? I honesty don't know, Dave. I haven't had a look at the circuits used, nor the waveform of the output, and I know nothing of the body's physiological response to electrical stimulation. As soon as current begins to flow though the secondary, the voltage across the output terminals (cow) drops; it all happens instantaneously. Re "No current, no shock," I don't believe one needs to have much current to feel the effects of the high voltage. While I think one can feel the high voltage with almost no current, I believe it's the current that causes tissue damage/electrical burns. Interesting about your friend. I have been zapped by 20-25KV from computer monitors while repairing them -- twice. Weird seeing the blue arc from the monitor to the screwdriver, and another from your elbow to a grounded chasis neaby. The muscles convulse and you quickly break the connection, involuntarily throwing whatever was in your hand across the room. We've wandered far enough off topic I guess. Cheers, Larry > I believe it's the > current that causes tissue damage/electrical burns. And it's the current that we feel. > I have been zapped by 20-25KV from computer monitors We've all been hit by 20-25 kilovolts many times. That's the voltage of your everyday static electricity shock from walking across the carpet on a dry day. It's the Joules (the energy) in a shock that largely determines whether your reaction is just a laugh or a tool stuck in the sheetrock across the room. I.P. On Feb 14, 1:24 pm, Larry Sabo <larry_s...@hotmail.com> wrote: > djperr...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Incidently, years ago I knew an old guy who could put his thumb on a hot wire (110V) and grab a ground wire with his other hand and endure that with no ill effects. Turns out, he had a large (poorly conducting) callous on his thumb that reduced the current flow through his body to manageable levels. He wouldn't do it with any other finger, nor the tip of his penis though nobody ever asked. He's dead now but not from electric shock. ==> This is a hoot! So much discussion over a facked picture/story. I took 110V many times with stupid antics involving electricity. I took a 220V once because of my father-in-law. I was working on installing a 220V line to the front of his bus garage and simultaneously 110V lines to ceiling lights. Both were turned off at the curcuit board. But, as I stuck my screwdriver into the box, it came in contact with the box and the 220V line. Next thing I knew, I was lying on the floor looking up at the box, with a Crafstman screwdriver sticking out of it and welded to the back of the box. My father in law thought he was turning the curcuit breaker off, not on. His Alzheimers hadn't been dx'd yet. >Larry, please educate me. [snip] Dave, here are two educational sites on the physiological effects of various levels of current through the body. And you were right, it is the current level that is critical. http://www.rel.co.in/KnowledgeCenter/GeneralDiscription.asp http://tinyurl.com/36regp Cheers, Larry > Regardless of what voltage powers the device, 110 vac, 220 >> vac, or even battery or solar, the voltage that goes to the containment [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > With regard to human/animal tissue, there is no such thing as "high > voltage" with "low amperage". Electric fencers hit you with a few thousand volts initially in case you're not well grounded (or have dry fur). Its current IS limited, though, to scores of millliamps, so if the animal's resistance is low, the voltage is "instantly" dropped to limit the current. Thus high voltage and low current are compatible. I.P. Thus high > voltage and low current are compatible. > > I.P. But not at the same time. If there's a shock, there's high current - period. You can't have one without the other. The fact that the voltage is reduced quickly by any one of a variety of techniques is what reduces the current to manageable, no shock levels. Dave Perry > Thus high >> voltage and low current are compatible. >> >> I.P. > > But not at the same time. You must first define "time". Thousands of volts for the microseconds it takes to clamp the current is probably not painful, usually not even perceptible, because minimal ENERGY is transferred to the zappee. So while a plot of the current may show an initial spike, its duration is so short it simply doesn't matter. Thus in a PRACTICAL sense, we had high voltage but very small current; I can think of several ways to achieve that, including coil field collapse as mentioned earlier, using circuits to shunt the undesired current dynamically or modulate a dynamic resistance in series with the zappee to limit output current, or widgets such as the thyristors used in various current control applications. > If there's a shock, there's high current - > period. You can't have one without the other. The fact that the > voltage is reduced quickly by any one of a variety of techniques is > what reduces the current to manageable, no shock levels. Nope. According to the Wisconsin Public Service Commission, 1 milliamp is at the minimum threshold for human perception. According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, the maximum current an average man could grasp and let go is 16 milliamps. A cur rent of 20 milliamps or higher if applied across the chest for an extended period of time could result in death from respiratory paralysis. I.P. I had to put up an electric fence to control my dog. To make sure this wasn't cruel, I soaked the ground with the hose and grabbed the wire while standing in the water barefooted. It was unpleasant. Fencers are limited to one or two hundred milliamps in extremely brief pulses -- not enough to cook anything even if left on for days -- with something like one second between pulses to let the victim escape. This story is obviously bogus. I.P. On Valentine's Day, Señor Freely wrote: (ka-snip) > Fencers are limited to one or two hundred milliamps in extremely brief > pulses -- not enough to cook anything even if left on for days -- with > something like one second between pulses to let the victim escape. This > story is obviously bogus. Indeed it is. Which is what I posted yesterday and seems to have been ignored. Hello? Hello? Steve J "Think what tedious years of study, thought, practice, experience went to the equipment of that peerless old master who was able to impose upon the whole world the lofty and sounding maxim that 'truth is mighty and will prevail' -- the most majestic compound fracture of fact which any of woman born has yet achieved. For the history of our race and each individual's experience are sown thick with evidence that a truth is not hard to kill, and a lie told well is immortal." -- Mark Twain > I.P. > I had to put up an electric fence to control my dog. To make sure this > wasn't cruel, I soaked the ground with the hose and grabbed the wire [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I.P. A few hundred milliamps sounds small but that's precisely the current that starts a heart into fibrillation and subsequent death if passed across the chest. Dogs and people don't die with these fences because it is pulsed. Incidently, currents from much higher voltages such as in the thousands of volts don't do this, they cause the muscles to "lock up" and the heart is not damaged from the shock as it is with lower voltages. In this case, the person dies of suffocation - muscles unable to function - and/or burns from the current cooking the tissues. >> I had to put up an electric fence to control my dog. To make sure this >> wasn't cruel, I soaked the ground with the hose and grabbed the wire [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > A few hundred milliamps sounds small 150 ma is a common fencer output current. Guys, all ya gotta do is Google it for all the fencer stuff you'd ever care to know. I.P. >>> I had to put up an electric fence to control my dog. To make sure this >>> wasn't cruel, I soaked the ground with the hose and grabbed the wire [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I.P. On a lighter note: Fred and Jane had been married 50 years, and decided to celebrate by returning to their honeymoon hotel. "Come on" said Jane, "let's do what we did 50 years ago and run down to the bottom of yonder field where you can make mad passionate love to me!" So off they went - and they did. Says Jane, "You know, that was even better than it was 50 years ago. How did you manage that?" "Well" says Fred, "50 years ago I didn't have an electric fence against my backside!" Envo |
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