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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2008

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HIFU. A NICE bloody Xmas present from Scrooge. UK

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MikeHi - 27 Dec 2007 13:11 GMT
This is for UK guys/partners.

Note please: This is a story affecting only our UK guys and partners.

I'm sorry I'm late with this important UK story, based on the Sunday
Telegraph (Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent  16/12/2007).

Here's a story appropriate in the season of Scrooge. Please note
carefully: where Mark Emberton, is quoted it's him. Anything else are
my views alone - and I know you'll all come in and correct any
inaccuracies in my understanding.

Up to now HIFU (High Intensity Focused Ultrasound) has been available
on the NHS in the UK. I've been treated twice with HIFU at University
College Hospital London.
Now instead of being available to all prostate cancer sufferers, HIFU
according to the report, is to be restricted only to those who have
failed to respond to conventional treatment and whose cancer has
returned.
The decision has been made by NICE. These medical bureaucrats are
supposed to judge treatments/drugs on the basis of cost-effectiveness.
But it is widely regarded as a body desperately seeking to ration
treatment on behalf of an incredibly incompetent government which
blunders billions of pounds away (inter-alia) by imposing on
specialists politician-controlled targets for treatment (aimed at
making the politicians look good, not at real patient benefit). And
the targets change day by day - which is what politicians do when they
fail and try to cover up.
Mark Emberton, the consultant urologist at University College
Hospital, London - and my own HIFU surgeon - was quoted as saying:
'The cost-effective argument is ludicrous, the economic argument is
completely fallacious. We've turned a five-day hospital stay into a
five-hour hospital stay. All you're doing is investing in a bit of
software and ultrasound kit."
The Sunday Telegraph reported also that Emberton "questioned the logic
.of only offering Hifu to men whose cancer had returned, while denying
it to patients in the early stages of the disease.
Questioned the logic? He must been incredulous. "HIFU concentrates
sound waves on a precisely targeted, tiny area of diseased tissue.
HIFU heats the tissue to about 100°C degrees and destroys it."
(www.drmarc.co.uk).  So NICE says, what? use it on a patient for
example with metastasis -spread all over? I had about 4 hours on one
target - my prostate. NICE are bureaucrats first and medical experts
second. Mark Emberton is a HIFU expert first, and first. So who is
right?
Nice, which has refused to comment on its new guidelines, will rule,
according to the Sunday Telegraph that there is insufficient evidence
to prove that Hifu has long-term value.
It seems that the NICE boys ('NICE' -how very inappropriate)  have
also done some self-serving non-reading. Research published only last
month in the European Journal of Urology found that eight out of 10
men were healthy five years after being treated with Hifu. Or perhaps
they never read the opinions of those they know are likely to disagree
with their politically-driven decisions.
NICE v.MY HIFU EXPERIENCE: After I was first diagnosed in 2005 I was
referred by the oncologist for six months anti-hormone treatment with
anti-androgen drugs, a Lupron shot every three months along with a
daily dose of Casodex. This would be followed by six weeks daily
radiation at a hospital miles away.
There are very many here, I know, who can advise me how my quality of
life would most likely have suffered with the drugs and radiation.
Any of:  nausea and vomiting, hot flashes, anaemia, lethargy,
osteoporosis, swollen and tender breasts and impotence. But it didn't
happen. I was very lucky. My first urologist Marc Laniado is a bright
surgeon specialising in non-invasive Pca treatments, and was training
in HIFU. He asked me if I would do it. It then depended if the UCLH
team would treat a patient of my age, with aggressive prostate cancer.
They were getting good figures with their non-aggressive patient
trials (trials were with patients with G7 as a limit). The way I saw
it, why skew them with one ageing old geyser like me? But they agreed.
I was more than willing. I trusted Laniado, I trusted what I read
about HIFU and I trusted Emberton, leader of the UCHL team I was
referred to -he had almost unique experience of using the new
techniques. So I had it.
Compare what has happened to me, a G9, Stage T3c patient approaching
80.  c.f. drugs and radiation.  I think the nerve of the UCLH team,
first time HIFUing on an aggressive-cancer patient old geyser, was
greater than mine!  I had HIFU on the prostate in 2006, and in 2007 on
the seminal vesicle (the Pc biopsy on it had been OK in '06. The
ability to have a second go is a feature of HIFU). I was a total of
four days in hospital. (This was two days longer than normal! Because
of age I suspect, the anaesthetic got to me a bit more). I had no
cuts, no bleeding. Some little pain after each but I never needed to
take painkillers post-op. I had a difficult few months after the first
op, when urinary channel scarring and exceptional blocking (other HIFU
patients I spoke to self-cathetered for a short while -but no
blocking) led to painful self-cathetering - but that cleared up. I
have had the occasional leak after the latest HIFU op (in August) but
it's minor and seems to be fading.
Now it seems metastasis is my only fear - and high-risk cancer means,
I think, that whatever is done first, however successfully, one is
eventually going to cop it. But if it happens - then I can go on to
the drugs and radiation. But it would be as a last resort. (Has NICE
asked Mr Emberton and other HIFU experts if HIFU would be a useable
tool if 'cancer returned'?)
Meanwhile I'm lucky. The original sites of the aggressive stuff seem
to have been firmly squashed without me suffering crippling
side-effects. Nothing's certain but I am able to see and try to
comfort my wife, now in a nursing home.

I have been fortunate. For others, no logical cost-effective argument
stands up for blocking HIFU treatment. It could mean a serious
deterioration in sufferers' quality of life against what they might
have had. It might cost lives.
I'll leave (most) of the last words to the experts. My apologies, I've
lost who I picked up this quote from:  "Doctors working in the field
want to eradicate the cancer while causing minimal 'collatoral damage'
to sexual and urinary functions. Nice has the luxury of time to hedge
its bets and await the results of long term medical trials, which
could take decades to provide results. New treatment options take us
nearer to the "Holy Grail" of effective treatment with minimal
side-effects."
But I'm going to have the last grouch. If NICE had stopped a new
treatment without serious side-effects for breast cancer sufferers,
the howls would have been all over TV and in all of the newspapers -
incessantly. But not a peep. Nothing. Nada. (This is written with the
greatest respect to women patients, with whose suffering we closely
relate, as with all cancer sufferers). It is a function of the
overbearing importance of women's matters in the media.

In the UK, Pca's "annual death toll … is the equivalent to the
crashing of a fully laden jumbo jet every fortnight." (Prof Roger
Kirby - chair of the charity Prostate UK). Yet compared with breast
cancer, it is tucked away out of sight, substantially less funded,
rarely mentioned in the media.

As a result it's safe to hit Pca patients in the UK. No political
comeback.
ronju99 - 27 Dec 2007 13:41 GMT
Great article Mike. We in the US also don't get the respect we deserve from
the media, politicians and cancer society as was pointed out by CalifChief
in an earlier post. Good luck on your continued success.

RonS.

--
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safire - 27 Dec 2007 14:20 GMT
> Great article Mike. We in the US also don't get the respect we deserve from
> the media, politicians and cancer society as was pointed out by CalifChief
> in an earlier post. Good luck on your continued success.
>
> RonS.

Hey Ron Judas, I am so sorry for you that you don't get the respect you
deserve and that you're a victim of the media, politicians and even
"cancer society" (whatever that is) but what Mike is complaining about
is inevitable if health care is nationalized; some committee of
bureaucrats eventually must decide what to allow and what not to allow.
Can't you get any treatment you want in the U.S. if you took proper
insurance and/or are a man of reasonable wealth?
ronju99 - 27 Dec 2007 16:05 GMT
safire<(The Nazi Jew hater),

The JU in RONJU is from my wifes name. Her first two initials you idiot.
Once again you have demonstrated   the a--h--- that you are. Go punk one
of you buddies.

--
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safire - 27 Dec 2007 16:50 GMT
> safire<(The Nazi Jew hater),

Please provide a basis for this allegation.

> The JU in RONJU is from my wifes name. Her first two initials you idiot.

I don't care what it stands for. Only idiots call other people idiots.
Are you upset because someone does to you what you do to others (i.e.
play with someone's name)? It's OK if you do it, but hell brakes loose
if anyone else does it? Silly, ronnie boy.
djperry42@sbcglobal.net - 27 Dec 2007 17:34 GMT
but hell brakes loose

Hey, lighten up.  We all make misteaks.
Dave Perry
Steve Tew - 28 Dec 2007 04:01 GMT
> but hell brakes loose
>
> Hey, lighten up.  We all make misteaks.
> Dave Perry

I picked up a couple of steaks from Von Hansens meat market a few weaks ago.
It is a shame that they just don't seem to be the high quality that they
used to have there.  They were much tougher than we expected from rib
steaks.  So, they were misteaks to me...  :o)

Steve
Claude - 27 Dec 2007 16:23 GMT
>> Great article Mike. We in the US also don't get the respect we deserve
>> from
>> the media, politicians and cancer society as was pointed out by
>> CalifChief
>> in an earlier post. Good luck on your continued success. RonS.

but what Mike is complaining about
> is inevitable if health care is nationalized; some committee of
> bureaucrats eventually must decide what to allow and what not to allow.
> Can't you get any treatment you want in the U.S. if you took proper
> insurance and/or are a man of reasonable wealth?

Doesn't some committee of bureaucrats make the same kinds of decisions with
private insurance?  I know they are in our area, as people are being denied
by their insurance companies, and contrary to their doctors' wishes, various
radiological diagnoses and treatments .

How do you know what "proper insurance" is if you don't know what future
demands you will have to make of it?  Once you have a condition, it's too
late to get the insurance.

Reasonable wealth?  I imagine people in countries with both nationalized and
private health insurance can get any treatment they need, if they are
willing to pay for it.
MikeHi - 27 Dec 2007 18:14 GMT
Ahoy! SAFIRE. PLEASE.  DON'T DO IT. You are derailing this post.
Consider please exactly what has been written:

I was posting an important story for UK Pca sufferers - especially the
thousands of newly diagnosed. I ended it with a comment I can boil
down to: Pca sufferers get a fraction of the publicity and sympathy
and funding afforded to breast-cancer suffers - because the latter are
predominantly women. (And I must state again, this is noted with the
utmost respect and love for any cancer sufferer).

Ronju22 wrote:     'Great article Mike. We in the US also don't get the
respect we deserve from the media, politicians and cancer society as
was pointed out by CalifChief in an earlier post. Good luck on your
continued success.'

Note, Safire, what Ronju22 wrote was absolutely NOTHING to do with
bureaucratic decisions. It is to do ONLY with the political dominance
of women-matters in politics -and the media.  Same in the USA as it is
in the UK.

But you jumped in:     Safire, you wrote: 'Hey Ron Judas, I am so
sorry for you that you don't get the respect you deserve and that
you're a victim of the media, politicians and even "cancer society"
(whatever that is) but what Mike is complaining about
is inevitable if health care is nationalized;…'

Safire, what's all this 'Judas' stuff. Why the unpleasant false
sympathy jeers for Ronju22?

To come back to the subject I *was* complaining about - the decision
to strictly limit HIFU -to when it could probably not be used. Yes,
that is taken by politically-driven bureaucrats. But I certainly was
not complaining about the whole of the UK National health service. It
has delivered me, for free, two HIFU operations by a top team
minimising I am sure my suffering. I was complaining about just one
bad decision aimed against innovative treatnment.  Highly relevant for
UK sufferers tuning in to this NG.

And please note Safire, I and my wife have been insured for health all
our lives. Because if you are insured, or can pay, you don't queue up
for operations here either. What's more you know the skilled surgeons
who do your operations will allow adequate time to stay with you all
your anxious question time. NHS patients, always in long queues, get
whatever consultant is free when your file gets to the top of an
enormous pile. But finally, they do get treated - however poor.

But as soon as I turned 70 my insurance premiums -and those for my
wife -jumped through the clouds. And Pca? Insurers in the Uk will not
cover ahead for cancer.

Claude's post is totally relevant to that argument.

So since you've mentioned private v. nationalised Safire it's like
everything else in life -on the one hand, on the other hand. And,
together with the tone in which it was written, it's NOT a sidetrack
Safire that helps my original effort in starting this thread.

If you want to carry it on, I would be grateful if you would please
start another thread.

Best wishes to all

MikeHi

(Incidentally is HIFU approved yet in the USA?- genuine question -not
point making).
safire - 27 Dec 2007 20:10 GMT
> I ended it with a comment I can boil
> down to: Pca sufferers get a fraction of the publicity and sympathy
> and funding afforded to breast-cancer suffers - because the latter are
> predominantly women.

How did you measure publicity for pca sufferers and for breast cancer
sufferers? Did you count all the words written about it? Did you time
all the tv shows dealing with these cancers? How did you measure
sympathy for pca sufferers and for breast cancer sufferers? Did you do
street interviews and ask people with which patient they sympathize
more? How did you determine there is more funding for the breast cancer
suffer(er)s? What makes you say it's all because breast cancer sufferers
are predominantly women? What are you suggetsing?

Has it occurred to you that for each two men dying of pca, three women
die of breast cancer per NCI/SEER stats? So even if you would be right -
and you have not provided any support for your statements - would it not
be reasonable to spend only a fraction for pca of what is spent for
breast cancer? Don't you think your claim is pathetic?

>  
> Ronju22 wrote:     'Great article Mike.
Judas kissing you is a reason for serious concern.
MikeHi - 28 Dec 2007 11:22 GMT
>How did you measure publicity for pca sufferers and for breast cancer
>sufferers? Did you count all the words written about it? Did you time
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>be reasonable to spend only a fraction for pca of what is spent for
>breast cancer? Don't you think your claim is pathetic?

Oh dear me, Safire, what a naughty old troll you are. Here was I,
stepping very gracefully around your little cave yesterday, saying
'please', 'thank you', and 'I'd be grateful'. Then I went to bed
early, like polite elderly gents do.  Dreams not too bad - not one
troll roaring out of his cave to bash me on the head. Lovely.

Then I woke up this morning, tuned in, and saw poor old me has still
got the same clubbing treatment as everybody else trying to post
something of support and interest on this NG.  A torrent of frothing
adjectives, venomous adverbs came pouring out of the screen. Drenched
me all over, they did. And your questions! Amazing! Yup I'd got it too
alright! Those totally unanswerable Saf questions.  No - your
questions are more than unanswerable, Saf, they are unbelievable!  

Did I go out in the street with my pencil and pad and ask what people
think?.. did I put my stop watch on TV shows?…Did I sit down and count
words in articles? How 'did I determine' fundings? And - put this in
the Xmas cracker too - what made me think breast cancer sufferers were
predominantly women?  Blimey mate, you've got me there.

So I confess you've got me all ends up Saf. I didn't do any of those
things. No. I did what everybody else who contributes here does - I
spend my days researching - you know research? It's what people do
when they've got a bad case of Pca and can't spend every moment
looking for someone to bash. I do it the real way, the lazy way if you
like , reading books, newspaper articles, making notes. And Googling,
googling, googling.  No Saf - nothing just 'occurs to me'.

Oh and by the way Saf congratulations on finding your own  stats
source. Three women die for every two men you write- so PCa funding
should rightly be 'a fraction'.  And that is your final thump. That's
got him! Certainly has, it's unbelievable what you alone can pull out
Saf, that's a fact. Unbelievable. Check out some different facts
below.

______________

http://www.giveafewbob.org/
…a disease which is now killing one man every hour in the UK.
Shockingly, although it's almost as common as breast cancer, it gets a
fraction of the research funding.  (Prostate Cancer Research
Foundation).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/663688.stm (it's been going on for
years)
... the public health minister admitted that inequality exists between
men's and women's health.

It has previously been estimated that eight times as much is spent on
women's health as men's.

Though breast and cervical cancer are very high profile, more men died
of cancer than women in 1998 - there were 37,150 deaths from cancer in
men under 75 compared to 30,387 in women. Professor John Waxman,
chairman of the Prostate Cancer Charity, said: "….. £1m will not go
very far.  A million pounds will probably only fund six researchers
for three years. Funding for research into prostate cancer needs to be
increased to the level of that for breast cancer.

http://www.nursinginpractice.com/default.asp?title=Governmenturgedtodoublethenum
berofprostatecancerspecialistnurses&page=article.display&article.id=6638


"Every year 35,000 men are diagnosed with prostate cancer in the UK
and specialist nurses play an essential role in their care and
support. It is unacceptable that clinical nurse specialists for men
with prostate cancer have on average the highest workload when
compared with other cancers. The Prostate Cancer Charity calls on the
government and the NHS to double the number of specialist nurses
working in prostate cancer

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article
_id=499508&in_page_id=1774

4th December 2007 Daily Mail
Ministers have ruled out a prostate cancer screening programme
--saying there is not enough evidence that it would be effective.
Older people are routinely screened for breast and bowel cancer, but
there are no plans to extend this to prostate cancer, despite the fact
it is the biggest cancer killer of UK men.  
Gordon Brown (Prime Minister) announced in September that
breast-cancer screening would be extended to the ages of 47 to 73,
covering 200,000 more women by 2012… Yesterday..(it was).. also
announced £100million to be spent on "digital mammography" scanning
equipment, which is better at spotting breast cancer among younger
women. Every cancer specialist hospital should have one of these by
2010.
http://www.uclh.nhs.uk/News/%E2%80%98Give+a+few+Bob%E2%80%99+to+end+prostate+can
cer.htm

(*Pca gets one-tenth of the funding*.)
Mark Emberton, a Consultant Urologist at UCH who specialises in
prostate cancer, is a Trustee of the Prostate Cancer Research
Foundation, … "Men's health issues often take a backseat in comparison
to other well known diseases," he said. "The disease kills a man every
hour in the UK and has almost as many victims as breast cancer, yet
receives only one-tenth of the funding.

A lot better in USA then, eh, Safire?
http://beoutrageous.com/IYP/prostate1.htm  - (read the whole of it,
Saf.) An estimated 317,000 men were diagnosed with prostate cancer
last year, and some 41,000 of them died….  Meanwhile, 184,000 women
were diagnosed with breast cancer, and 44,000 died. (The American
Cancer Society)

From 1990-1997, the National Cancer Institute has directed $1.8
billion toward breast cancer research. Over the same period, the NCI
gave out $376 million to prostate cancer research projects.

http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071209/APN/712090622&
template=apart

The prostate coalition is also working to improve funding for
research. Federal funding for breast cancer research is almost twice
that for prostate cancer research, according to the group.
I.P. Freely - 29 Dec 2007 01:44 GMT
> whatever

> Oh dear me, Safire, what a naughty old troll you are.

<SNIP three pages of work.>

Dead accurate. So why feed 'im?

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 27 Dec 2007 20:47 GMT
> Ahoy! SAFIRE. PLEASE.  DON'T DO IT. You are derailing this post.
> Consider please exactly what has been written:

[Logical arguments redacted.]

Hi, Mike.  You have not been here for awhile and do not realized that Safire
has no interest in logic, or prostate cancer for that matter.  He is a
troll.  His purpose is to irritate those who have not plonked him.
Steve Kramer - 27 Dec 2007 20:40 GMT
> Doesn't some committee of bureaucrats make the same kinds of decisions
> with private insurance?  I know they are in our area, as people are being
> denied by their insurance companies, and contrary to their doctors'
> wishes, various radiological diagnoses and treatments .

Actually, HIFU is not allowed in the US at all, but I believe it's based on
FDA decisions (indecision?) rather than economics.

'Tis true that insurance companies won't pay for "experimental" treatment
and are often very slow to remove the "experimental" tag from new
treatments.  I don't believe they have been widely successful in removing
from the table live-saving or beneficial treatments outside the mental
illness arena.
He'sDeadJim - 27 Dec 2007 21:59 GMT
>> Doesn't some committee of bureaucrats make the same kinds of decisions
>> with private insurance?  I know they are in our area, as people are being
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Actually, HIFU is not allowed in the US at all, but I believe it's based on
>FDA decisions (indecision?) rather than economics.

The University of Colorado Hospital is soon to begin clincal trials
with HIFU
I.P. Freely - 30 Dec 2007 22:19 GMT
Who cares what he wrote? It's his byline that cracked me up. Good one!

I.P.
Leonard Evens - 27 Dec 2007 23:49 GMT
>> Great article Mike. We in the US also don't get the respect we deserve
>> from
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Can't you get any treatment you want in the U.S. if you took proper
> insurance and/or are a man of reasonable wealth?

I'm not sure what you mean by "proper insurance".  It is my impression
that Medicare does not presently cover  HIFU in the US, and if Medicare
doesn't cover it, that means essentially all readily available insurance
plans won't cover it.   Moreover, since it has not been established that
HIFU is an effective primary treatment which is superior to readily
available treats such as surgery and radiation, external or through
seeds, it is not clear what we are bing denied.
\
Acording to Scardino's book,  HIFU has been popular in Europe where
other less "invasive" treatments such as seeds are not readily available.

In any society, insurance, private or financed through taxes such as
Medicare, is not going to cover every tretment.  You often read of
people in this country who are denied treatment using new methods for
just that reason.   Ideally, new treatments should be available on a
trial basis in carefully controlled studies until they prove themselves,
whence they can be made readily available.  Anything else is going to
bankrupt country's medical finance system, however it is done.

In any country, if you are wealthy enough, you can get any treatment you
want, whether it works or not.  This is just as true in the United
Kingdom as it is in the US.

More generally,
Alan Meyer - 28 Dec 2007 02:47 GMT
> ...
> In any society, insurance, private or financed through taxes
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> country's medical finance system, however it is done.
> ...

These seem to me to be very good points.

The enormous cost of modern medicine has become a truly
intractable problem.  The demand for medical care can be almost
unlimited, but the resources to statisfy that demand are very
limited.  If costs aren't somehow contained they will bankrupt
everyone.  This is true both for government and private insurers.

Any attempt to limit access will result in people not getting
what they think they need, and often not getting what they really
need.  How could it be otherwise?

The insurers try to use reasonable guidelines for imposing access
limits.  Limiting access to experimental treatments seems more
reasonable than limiting access to well proven treatments.
Limiting access to expensive treatments that have a poor record
of success, even though they do save some lives, may also be
reasonable.

Your insurer, government or private, may say that a treatment
only has a 10% chance of saving you from an otherwise certain
death, so they won't pay.  It's not cost effective.  You want
your 10% chance.  You've paid your taxes and premiums all your
life.  You feel cheated and betrayed.

Life is complicated isn't it?

   Alan

P.S.

MikeHi's original point that HIFU may be _more_ cost effective
than some other treatments is still valid however.  The NICE guys
who limit access don't necessarily know their prostate from their
elbow when it comes to making complicated technical and financial
judgments.
safire - 28 Dec 2007 07:27 GMT
 Ideally, new treatments should be available on a
> trial basis in carefully controlled studies until they prove themselves,
> whence they can be made readily available.  Anything else is going to
> bankrupt country's medical finance system, however it is done.

Exactly. Also there's nothing fundamentally wrong if an insurer limits
coverage for treatment or medicine that is not medically necessary,
however difficult such a determination may be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/28/business/28colon.html
Steve Kramer - 27 Dec 2007 20:29 GMT
> Up to now HIFU (High Intensity Focused Ultrasound) has been available
> on the NHS in the UK. I've been treated twice with HIFU at University
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> failed to respond to conventional treatment and whose cancer has
> returned.

You guys sure have it nice over there.  We have to research and make
decisions on our cancer treatment.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                       PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04, <0.04 10/11/07
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

rosbif - 01 Jan 2008 17:05 GMT
>Note please: This is a story affecting only our UK guys and partners.

Very interesting, Mike - thanks for the posting.
I can't begin to describe even a fraction of my anger with our
government and some of its agencies too - either corrupt incompetent
or both, impossible to know where to begin complaining.   As to NICE,
I'm not sure whether their actions are just or not.  Trying to
optimise the NHS to do maximum 'good' for the greatest number is a
hiding to nothing but at least the debate will rage on.

Fingers crossed for 2008, for you and everyone here.
MikeHi - 03 Jan 2008 18:25 GMT
>>Note please: This is a story affecting only our UK guys and partners.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>Fingers crossed for 2008, for you and everyone here.

Hi Rosbif: Nice to speak to you. Re your questions, it's  usual
political corruption, and lots of unusually incredible incomptence
-right across the board.  And does it also make you mad, as it does
me, when every failure -almost daily now - lots of it on NHS issues
also schools, housing, immigration, massive loss of private data,  -is
greeted by a government Minister on the Today programme, BBC 5 live,
TV News,  etc, ignoring the details read out to him of failure and
delivering his prepared spin.  While the Presenter goes for a snooze,
we hear how (always) "lessons have been learned" and how much better
it is all becoming, and how many more billions of our money they have
invested (read 'wasted') , and all will indeed be absolutely
wonderfully marvellous some time soon. Presenter (awakening): "Thank
you Minister". Screams from Rosbif, me and millions. But power to do
anything? Zero. Revolution? Starting to sound like a good idea.

Meanwhile I join your crossed-fingers brigade for you and everyone for
2008.
Steve Jordan - 03 Jan 2008 18:58 GMT
>>> Note please: This is a story affecting only our UK guys and partners.

(snip)

True, in the sense of direct effect.

However, there were sincere tears shed on this side of The Pond when
Hugh Kearnley died last September in Glasgow, Scotland.

Yanks did as much as possible to help him. Reminder: his initial dx was
advanced PCa with extensive mets. He was on 24/7 narcotics and had to
use a cane.

He rarely saw the same medic twice -- just whoever was available.

After NHS denied him palliative radiation to the mets, we and his
brothers in the UK did what we could to urge that his tx be elevated to
modern levels. They relented and he underwent palliative RT with
wonderful results. He was able to begin weaning himself from the
narcotics and put aside his cane. For a few weeks.

Then he died.

I miss him. Always will.

Regards,

Steve J

"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken
places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good
and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of
these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special
hurry."
-- Ernest Hemingway
rosbif - 04 Jan 2008 10:22 GMT
On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:25:14 +0000, MikeHi <MikeHi@anon.demon.co.uk>

>Hi Rosbif: Nice to speak to you. Re your questions, it's  usual
>political corruption, and lots of unusually incredible incomptence
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>          
It's the bare-faced lies and incompetent handling of the economy that
put my blood on fast-boil but I think you've covered everything there.
My favourite shackle raiser - and it's amazing how often it oozes out
almost verbatim - is, "we've already achieved so much but we must do
more" - I'd usually want to throw a rubber brick but I've recently
banished all tvs and the targeting the radio doesn't quite do it for
me.

By the way, I know troll-feeding is discouraged but I thought you and
Ron S dished up some well-deserved bitter gruel.  Sometimes it needs
to be done. Picking over minutiae is a usenet hazard for all of us,
but here of all places, where black and white are rarely accessible,
fake dispute invented by half-wits desperate to sound clever is a
fecking nuisance.   Periodic highlighting of that fact puts clearly on
record exactly who is offending and does no harm IMO.
safire - 04 Jan 2008 10:37 GMT
> On Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:25:14 +0000, MikeHi <MikeHi@anon.demon.co.uk>
>> Re your questions, it's  usual
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> banished all tvs and the targeting the radio doesn't quite do it for
> me.

Amazing how members of society's underclasses always vent their
frustrations in the same resentful way and always put the blame for
their miserable life on others. Roast Beef and MikeHi are prime examples
of the underprivileged that complain, complain and complain. The NHS
gave MikeHi, in his own words, state of the art treatment, but, in his
expert opinion, it's an organization of incompetents. Well, Mike HI,
every country gets the government it deserves.
rosbif - 06 Jan 2008 14:15 GMT
>The NHS gave MikeHi, in his own words, state of the art treatment...

true...

>but, in his expert opinion, it's an organization of incompetents.

false; Mike attributed the incompetence to NICE - it couldn't have
been clearer.
 
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