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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2007

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What's the norm for PSA's after RP

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Jean - 28 Sep 2007 15:07 GMT
Just curious here.  Larry's RRP was last Sept.  His PSA was checked at the
time of catheter removal and again three months later.  At that time he was
told to come back in one year ... this Sept.  He called to make his appt. a
few weeks ago and can't get in until Dec. because the doc is so busy.
Wondering how often everyone else is getting their PSA checked the first
year (or so) after surgery.

Thanks,

Jean
jloomis - 28 Sep 2007 15:29 GMT
I had my PSA checked every 4 months for the first 2 to 3 years. After that I
have it checked every year.  The differing labs may have differing detection
levels.
In other words, a lab with high detection equipt. may come up with less than
0.01  other labs may come up with less than 0.02
The Dr. said this is (noise) the small decimal........anyway, that is what I
know as a layman, and I am sure there are those out there with much more
scientific explainations.
john loomis
> Just curious here.  Larry's RRP was last Sept.  His PSA was checked at the
> time of catheter removal and again three months later.  At that time he
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Jean
Steve Jordan - 28 Sep 2007 18:34 GMT
(snip)

>............ He called to make his appt. a
> few weeks ago and can't get in until Dec. because the doc is so busy.
> Wondering how often everyone else is getting their PSA checked the first
> year (or so) after surgery.

Judging from what I've seen and experienced, PSAs are usually checked at
least quarterly for a year or two before (assuming all is well) going to
an annual schedule.

I suggest requesting a lab order for a commercial lab such as Quest or
LabCorp to perform the test.

Regards,

Steve J
Alan Meyer - 28 Sep 2007 19:26 GMT
> Just curious here.  Larry's RRP was last Sept.  His PSA was checked at the time of
> catheter removal and again three months later.  At that time he was told to come back in
> one year ... this Sept.  He called to make his appt. a few weeks ago and can't get in
> until Dec. because the doc is so busy. Wondering how often everyone else is getting
> their PSA checked the first year (or so) after surgery.

I My PSA was checked at 3 month intervals for the first year after
radiation.  When my PSA went up at one point during the second
year, they switched to a monthly schedule in order to track it closely.
Fortunately, it was just a "bounce" (something that can happen with
radiation, not surgery.)

There is really no reason why the doctor can't order a PSA test
for Larry right now, whether or not he has time available to see
him now.  It doesn't sound right to me to wait so long to get a
PSA test.  If the PSA comes back rising, then the doc should
make time for him.  Otherwise he can do the routine checkup in
Dec.

At least that's my non-expert view.

   Alan
BH - 28 Sep 2007 23:51 GMT
I agree with Alan.  I normally never see my Doc about the results of a
PSA test (as long as there's not some change that we need to discuss).
I go in to have blood drawn and wait for the results.  I am notified,
by email, when the results are available.  I go online to see the
results, frequently before the Doc gets around to checking the report.
We normally exchange emails about the results and schedule the next
test - for which the Doc enters the order for the blood draw with the
lab at that time.  I make a note on my calendar to get the blood
drawn, and the cycle repeats.  We generally meet face-to-face no more
than once a year, or more frequently if there's a reason.  It saves
time for both of us.  It also saves me the cost of the co-pay for an
office visit and the travel time/cost.

I suggest just calling the office and asking if you can't get the
blood drawn for the test without actually seeing the Doc.  Over the
years I realize that I had a lot of anxiety about getting the results
of the next PSA test initially every three months for about a year,
then every six months for a year or two, then annually for the first
five years, until the PSA started going up.........  I hope you avoid
that experience!

Good luck.

>There is really no reason why the doctor can't order a PSA test
>for Larry right now, whether or not he has time available to see
>him now.  

Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com
Leonard Evens - 28 Sep 2007 22:14 GMT
> Just curious here.  Larry's RRP was last Sept.  His PSA was checked at the
> time of catheter removal and again three months later.  At that time he was
> told to come back in one year ... this Sept.  He called to make his appt. a
> few weeks ago and can't get in until Dec. because the doc is so busy.
> Wondering how often everyone else is getting their PSA checked the first
> year (or so) after surgery.

This varies considerably according to the surgeon.  The old
recommendation was every three months in the first two years, every six
months in the next two years, and every year subsequently.  But more
recently many surgeons have decided on the basis of ongoing research
that they need to see most their patients less frequently.  In cases
with favorable post surgical pathology reports, they may take one
reading at 3 months and then go to a yearly schedule afterwards.

You pretty much have to follow your surgeon's recommendation.  The
doctor has to be comfortable on the basis of his or her experience with
the frequency of checkups, so it doesn't matter what some other doctor
chooses to do.

> Thanks,
>
> Jean
Steve Jordan - 28 Sep 2007 22:24 GMT
On September 28, Leonard Evens wrote, in pertinent part:

> You pretty much have to follow your surgeon's recommendation.  The
> doctor has to be comfortable on the basis of his or her experience with
> the frequency of checkups, so it doesn't matter what some other doctor
> chooses to do.

Unless, of course, the "other doctor" is more knowledgeable.

Regards,

Steve J

"As a physician, I am painfully aware that most of the decisions we make
with
regard to prostate cancer are made with inadequate data."
-- Charles L. "Snuffy" Myers, MD
Medical oncologist. PCa survivor.
Another "outlier" maybe?
Leonard Evens - 29 Sep 2007 20:40 GMT
> On September 28, Leonard Evens wrote, in pertinent part:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Unless, of course, the "other doctor" is more knowledgeable.

It is my impression that there is no credible research suggesting that
the particular schedule chosen by the doctor for routine checkups, which
is what I thought the question was about, is cruical.  If the post
surgical pathology report suggests a high likelihood of recurrence, or
similarly if there is a confirmed recurrence at any stage, then of
course the more knowledgeable the doctor, the better off the patient.
Unfortunately, it is hard for a patient to know which doctors are more
knowledgeable in such cases.  This is specially difficult given that
there seem to be honest differences of opinion about when to begin
hormone therapy in case of recurrence.  Ideally, the patient could
examine the research literature, see which approach makes the most
sense, and then choose a doctor accordingly.   But few of us know enough
to be able to do that.  It is probably better to start off with a well
qualified doctor you trust, and try to get answers and explanations
based on what you can find out for yourself.  If you are not satisfied
with the answers, you will have to find another doctor.

I trust my doctor based on both his formal qualifications and my
experience with him. If I have a recurrence some time in the future, I
will decide whether or not to try to find someone who specializes in
treating such cases, but so far at least it hasn't been necessary.

> Regards,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Medical oncologist. PCa survivor.
> Another "outlier" maybe?
Jean - 30 Sep 2007 01:26 GMT
Thanks Leonard.  Larry's post surgical pathology report was good.  Margins
clear.  And as I said, the two PSA's were both undetectable.  Since I've
read about so many of the posters here having PSA's quarterly for the first
two years, it just surprised me that our surgeon didn't request that also.
Larry's pre-surgery appts. were numerous and chats were long.

Larry will get a PSA when he has his yearly physical with the family doc and
if there's a reason to be concerned, he'll call the surgeon and tell him
what's going on.  I'm sure they would get him right in if there is a
problem.

Thanks again,

Jean

>> On September 28, Leonard Evens wrote, in pertinent part:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>> Medical oncologist. PCa survivor.
>> Another "outlier" maybe?
Jean - 29 Sep 2007 02:19 GMT
Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.  Larry's surgeon is the best
of the best in Houston and we trust him with Larry's life ... obviously, but
it just seemed to me that he should have had more PSA's in the past year.
The two that were done following surgery were both <0.01 so that's good.  He
goes in to see the family doc for his yearly PE pretty soon and we'll just
have him do a PSA along with everything else, and he will see the surgeon in
Dec.

Thanks again all ... very much appreciated comments!!

Jean

>> Just curious here.  Larry's RRP was last Sept.  His PSA was checked at
>> the time of catheter removal and again three months later.  At that time
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>
>> Jean
Elzee36 - 29 Sep 2007 20:05 GMT
> Thank you all for the comments and suggestions.  Larry's surgeon is the best
> of the best in Houston and we trust him with Larry's life

 My surgeon here in NYC is considered one of the best also but it
wasnt cost effective for me to see
 him on a regular basis especially with all the cystoscopys I was
having.  Also I very rarely saw him but
 one of the other doctors in his practice.  The doctor I switched to
is in my medical plan and I think he is
 great.  Very down to earth.
 Are there other doctors in his practice that you could use just for
the PSA testing?
 Well good luck and keep those future PSAs down.
Ron B - 02 Oct 2007 19:09 GMT
Len has given good advice.

I had my RRP in 3/05...and had a PSA 1 month or so after that.

Then...every 6 months.  I'm going on 2 1/2 years and it's still 6
months.

6 months seems to be a normal period...though guys have 4 months and
even every YEAR.

My best,

Ron B.

Chicago
Ron B - 02 Oct 2007 19:35 GMT
Ooops.  I meant to send this post to Puzzled...as an e-mail...but
there's nothing secret about it.

It's what I know and feel.

Ron B.

Chicago
Elzee36 - 28 Sep 2007 23:42 GMT
He called to make his appt. a
> few weeks ago and can't get in until Dec. because the doc is so busy.<

 Uh DECEMBER??  How busy can this guy be?  Maybe you should think
about changing doctors.

 > Wondering how often everyone else is getting their PSA checked the
first
> year (or so) after surgery.<

  I am 2 years 5 months from my RP and in the first year it was about
every 3 months and now
  up to 6th months and (Knock on wood) still at 0.01.  My problem was
with my bladder and the
  stricture closing up and the doctors performing numerous
cystoscopys especially in the first year.
  I had one last Feb after almost a YEAR of remaining open. One
morning out of nowhere it just
  shutdown on me!!  Not fun!!  Thankfully I have a great urologist
who tells me to call him and he'll
  take me asap into his office.  THAT is the kind of doctor your
husband needs.
  Good luck.
chasjac too - 30 Sep 2007 20:35 GMT
Hello, Jean:

I've had mine checked every three months (more or less) since my LRP last
November.  After the next one, my uro wants to see me every six months for
a year, and then back to a yearly visit -- of course, that assumes that I
have no recurrence.  

But I think it varies from doc to doc, as others have said.  

Is the surgeon part of a team?  I'm just wondering whether Larry could see
someone else at the practice.

--charlie

Signature

6/2006 PSA 5.2, DRE suspicious
7/2006 Biopsy:  2 of 10 positive, Gleason 7(3+4)
11/2006 LRP:  Clear margins
PSA < 0.01 on 1/2007, 3/2007, 6/2007, 9/2007
so far, so good ...

richk - 01 Oct 2007 18:31 GMT
I had an RRP in Dec 2002.  My PSA 3 months post-op was .037.  Because of
that, my doc ordered PSAs every quarter for the 1st two years and
semi-annually since then.  My PSA has varied from a low of .037 to a high
of .067.
RR - 02 Oct 2007 06:52 GMT
Hi,
Mine in 0.01 which actually in undetectable.
I once took it in a different clinic and it was 0.04,
which my Uro still was happy with.
I think that you are OK - it is important to check in the same clinic,
otherwise you may get variations.
RR

>I had an RRP in Dec 2002.  My PSA 3 months post-op was .037.  Because of
>that, my doc ordered PSAs every quarter for the 1st two years and
>semi-annually since then.  My PSA has varied from a low of .037 to a high
>of .067.
Unquestionably Confused - 02 Oct 2007 13:29 GMT
> Hi,
> Mine in 0.01 which actually in undetectable.
> I once took it in a different clinic and it was 0.04,
> which my Uro still was happy with.
> I think that you are OK - it is important to check in the same clinic,
> otherwise you may get variations.

With the hyper-sensitive PSA assays (and others for that matter) the low
end results are typically measured as "<0.01" or "<0.1" which means that
YOUR PSA is below the detectable range.  It could be "0.009" or it could
be "0.00000000000000000000000000000000001"  They don't know because it
cannot be measured, thus the term undetectable.

 > On Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:31:47 -0400, "richk" <richk13@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> I had an RRP in Dec 2002.  My PSA 3 months post-op was .037.  Because of
>> that, my doc ordered PSAs every quarter for the 1st two years and
>> semi-annually since then.  My PSA has varied from a low of .037 to a high
>> of .067.  

When I had my RRP in 2000, they used the hyper-sensitive test that
detected down to "<0.01" and my third test, at eight months post-op,
came in at "0.07" and I damn near had a heart attack since the preceding
two had come in at "<0.01"

Surgeon cautioned me that that was a problem with the hyper-sensitive
tests - minor blips - and to watch for any pattern which might appear.
Fortunately, the only pattern that developed was "<0.01" and, later
(when they changed labs), was "<0.1" results. <g>

FWIW, my surgeon told me he wouldn't formulate any treatment plan for
follow up treatment until he saw a pattern which included a PSA reading
approaching "1.0"

My surgeon and urologist (not the same docs) followed your testing
schedule as well.  At least until December of last year when I was
placed back on annual testing of the PSA.
Steve Kramer - 03 Oct 2007 00:20 GMT
>I had an RRP in Dec 2002.  My PSA 3 months post-op was .037.  Because of
> that, my doc ordered PSAs every quarter for the 1st two years and
> semi-annually since then.  My PSA has varied from a low of .037 to a high
> of .067.

Good to hear from you again, Rick.  Almost five years and still less that
1/10th.  Fantastic!

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                       PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04 (06/12/2007)
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Steve Kramer - 03 Oct 2007 01:09 GMT
I'm sorry, Rick.  I just realized your subject was a question.

"Normally" you would like to have a PSA of .004 or less.  Most of us rarely
do.  Without that, you would want to vary somewhere south of 0.10 without
ever going over.
 
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