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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2007

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limey - 28 Aug 2007 20:53 GMT
Well, today was somewhat of a shock.   Henry gets a Lupron shot every
four months.   His initial PSA was 66.7 in August 2006, 0.6 by December,
0.2 by April 2007 and now, August 2007, it has gone up to 1.7 (different
lab, though).

He had another Lupron shot this morning.   The doctor was unavailable
but the nurse practitioner gave Henry prescriptions for Casodex pending
the M.D.s approval.

What effects can he expect from the combined Lupron/Casodex treatment?
And how significant is the rise in the PSA?

I appreciate any comments anyone has.

Dora
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limey113@yahoo.com

Steve Jordan - 28 Aug 2007 21:45 GMT
On August 28, Dora wrote:

> Well, today was somewhat of a shock.   Henry gets a Lupron shot every
> four months.   His initial PSA was 66.7 in August 2006, 0.6 by December,
> 0.2 by April 2007 and now, August 2007, it has gone up to 1.7 (different
> lab, though).

The difference in labs might explain the difference in results.
Especially if the labs employ different measurement techniques/lab
regimens. It is very important to maintain consistency in lab methods.

> He had another Lupron shot this morning.   The doctor was unavailable
> but the nurse practitioner gave Henry prescriptions for Casodex pending
> the M.D.s approval.
>
> What effects can he expect from the combined Lupron/Casodex treatment?
> And how significant is the rise in the PSA?

The rise in PSA result may or may not be significant. Because a
different lab was used, there is no way to be certain. Moreover, one lab
result is not very meaningful. It is results over time that can prove
useful. As 'tis said, one robin does not make a spring.

So far as side effects (SEs) are concerned, that, too, is uncertain
because each of us is different. For instance, I was on Casodex early on
to prevent PSA flare when Zoladex was started. I noted no SEs at all,
but that is meaningless so far as Henry is concerned. BTW, Henry might
very well have been prescribed Casodex when starting Lupron for the same
reason. He should have been.

Casodex (bicalutimide) is an anti-androgen, which is to say that its
action is different from Lupron. It blocks T that is produced by the
adrenal cortexes from attaching to cell receptors in the prostate.

The rxlist section is at http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/bicalutamide.htm

The possible SEs are noted at
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/bicalutamide_ad.htm

Good luck.

BTW, is the doctor a urologist or a cancer specialist, an oncologist?

Regards,

Steve J
Bernieboy - 29 Aug 2007 01:36 GMT
Dora,

I monitor this group and rarely respond as the other gurus cover the
subjects quite well. In your case I have to respond......

I echo what Steve J has said - using different Labs DOES have an
impact on the results.  For reasons I won't go into I had two PSA
tests done on the same day analysed at different Labs - no medical
intervention between tests (e.g. DRE etc.). One result was 74 and the
other 70 (> 5% variance).  I took this up with the medicos and they
told me that this was quite possible/likely.

Also, it's the trend of PSA over time that matters most not any
occassional "blip". I have been monitoring mine using MS Excel and the
graph over the last two years makes for interesting reading !

SEs?  I have been on Zoladex for two years and only moans are hot-
flushes and tiredness.  I had no SEs from RT and I am getting away
lightly on current Chemo regime as thinning hair is the only impact.

Hope that helps

Bernie

PS
Steve, isn't the bird a swallow not a robin?  - Sorry to be
pedantic :-)
limey - 29 Aug 2007 02:08 GMT
> Dora,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Steve, isn't the bird a swallow not a robin?  - Sorry to be
> pedantic :-)

Thanks, Bernie and Steve.   My husband and I had the same thought.   He
was forced to go to a different lab this time because our insurance
company and our usual lab parted company; therefore, we suspected there
might be a difference in readings.

Dora
limey - 29 Aug 2007 21:05 GMT
> Dora,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Steve, isn't the bird a swallow not a robin?  - Sorry to be
> pedantic :-)

Oops.  My reply to your and Steve Jordan's posts didn't show up at this
end.  Here it is again, just in case:

Thanks, Bernie and Steve.   My husband and I had the same thought.   He
was forced to go to a different lab this time because our insurance
company and our usual lab parted company; therefore, we suspected there
might be a difference in readings.

Dora
Steve Jordan - 29 Aug 2007 21:12 GMT
On August 28, Bernie wrote:

(ka-snip)

> PS
> Steve, isn't the bird a swallow not a robin?  - Sorry to be
> pedantic :-)

Well, so long as it isn't a vulture......

Regards,

Steve J
Steve Kramer - 29 Aug 2007 09:39 GMT
> Well, today was somewhat of a shock.   Henry gets a Lupron shot every four
> months.   His initial PSA was 66.7 in August 2006, 0.6 by December, 0.2 by
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I appreciate any comments anyone has.

I'm sorry to hear this, Dora.  But, Casodex should put it in its tracks for
awhile.

I had to add Casodex in 2006.  My PSA has been undetectable ever since.

It also caused me to immediately gain 15 pounds and it seemed there was
nothing I could do to stop it.  However, a year later, I've lost 22 pounds
without trying all that hard.  I would say that I have a little more fatigue
in my legs, but I'm still walking 3-5 miles a day, 3-5 times a week.  More
importantly, though not as important for Henry, I am still working full time
in a fairly active job.

With his Gleason, how long Casodex will work is up-in-the air, but I think
he'll be okay for a time.  Just make sure he stays active.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                       PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04 (06/12/2007)
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

limey - 29 Aug 2007 21:13 GMT
limey wrote:
>> Well, today was somewhat of a shock.   Henry gets a Lupron shot
>> every four months.   His initial PSA was 66.7 in August 2006, 0.6 by
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> With his Gleason, how long Casodex will work is up-in-the air, but I
> think he'll be okay for a time.  Just make sure he stays active.

Thanks for the reassuring words, Steve.   We'll have to wait and see how
the Casodex works out, if the uro confirms Henry going on it.

Fortunately, Henry has always been strong and active and still insists
he can (and does) do pretty well everything he always has, except he
tires easily (what the heck, we're both 83!!).    In April, the uro told
him he had a year.  I don't believe it.

I still can't persuade him to go to a urologist.  He's being pretty
fatalistic about the whole thing.

Hanging in there,
Dora
Steve Jordan - 29 Aug 2007 21:28 GMT
On August 29, Dora replied in pertinent part to Steve K:

> .....In April, the uro told
> him he had a year.  I don't believe it.
>
> I still can't persuade him to go to a urologist.  He's being pretty
> fatalistic about the whole thing.

Not sure I follow, sorry. Did he have a uro in April and now should see
another? BTW, any medic who guesses like that (and that's what it is
when dealing with such a time period) should be sent packing. It borders
on cruelty.

The reason I asked upthread about uro or oncologist is that I don't see
what a surgeon, which is all most uros are, can be of any benefit at
this point. I recommend seeing a cancer specialist, a medical
oncologist, ASAP. Preferably one who is well-trained in treatment of
prostate cancer.

Regards,

Steve J

"I believe it is a mistake for many urologists to be
involved in the endocrine therapy of prostate cancer.  Let me state why.
Urologists are surgeons and many times surgeons rush to a treatment without
really understanding what they are doing."
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
limey - 30 Aug 2007 01:27 GMT
> On August 29, Dora replied in pertinent part to Steve K:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> treatment without really understanding what they are doing."
> -- Stephen B. Strum, MD

Steve, my error.   I said I couldn't persuade him to go to a urologist.
Obviously, I meant an oncologist.  I also agree with your comments.
Since my husband reads the newsgroup I'll keep quiet for once.

Dora
Steve Kramer - 30 Aug 2007 01:20 GMT
> Thanks for the reassuring words, Steve.   We'll have to wait and see how
> the Casodex works out, if the uro confirms Henry going on it.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I still can't persuade him to go to a urologist.  He's being pretty
> fatalistic about the whole thing.

He is well past the average lifespan of an American male, he wasn't
diagnosed until he had a PSA of 66+, the worst Stage and the worse Gleason.
He's got good reasons to be fatalistic.  No matter how you look at it, he's
not going to make it to the century mark.  But, dammit, he doesn't have to
give in either.  There is three standard types of hormone therapy and they
can be combined and adjusted by a competent oncologist.  There is much
better chemo out there and good meds to help a man handle it better.  And
there is always prayer, and fun, an laughing, and all those things that can
help you live longer.  Especially if he's the active sort.

BTW, he is beyond a urologist.  He needs a medical oncologist as his primary
and occasionally a radiological oncologist for palliative local treatments.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                       PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04 (06/12/2007)
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

limey - 30 Aug 2007 01:32 GMT
> He is well past the average lifespan of an American male, he wasn't
> diagnosed until he had a PSA of 66+, the worst Stage and the worse
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> primary and occasionally a radiological oncologist for palliative
> local treatments.

He will read your comments.  Maybe you can convince him.  I can't.

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