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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2007

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HIFU -my experience and what's next. Comments, advice, whatever, please.

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MIKEHI - 15 Aug 2007 17:05 GMT
I give some links at the end.

First. Some apologies. I have gained much from reading some pointed
and caring information here from the best source about PCa - those who
have been there, done that for years. When I first posted about my
coming HIFU in 2006 it was to add to the information. But I haven't
yet followed up with experiences as I promised to do. I do have a
reason. My wife of 55 years had Alzheimers and I was looking after her
24/24. When she went for a spell in hospital for an infection, she
fell and fractured her thigh and was flat on her back. Her mental
state went downhill. She was then admitted to a nursing home. After
three weeks there she fell and broke her left hip. All repaired, but
can't walk and  mental health, unsurprisingly, worse. I visit her
every day. It is very distressing. She was incredibly energetic, and
bright; we met as fellow undergrads.  My own brain cells have also got
a lot flabbier; concentrating and writing harder. But now I need to
keep my promise as I am up for a new HIFU in less than a week's time.

Briefly (which didn't use to be my style), for new readers: In 2005 I
was diagnosed with a prostate Gleason 4+5. HIFU (High Intensity
Focussed Ultrasound) was, and is, a new technique for destroying
cancer cells. UK trials were being led from University College
Hospital London.  "The benefit of Hifu is that it is non-invasive -
there are no cuts and no radiation. It can also be done as a day-case
procedure," wrote Mark Emberton, the consultant urologist leading the
trial. (Honest, for the usual sceptics, I'm not on a percentage - I'm
giving strict info from where I got it - and needless to say endlessly
checked elsewhere). Trials were limited to below Gleason 7 patients.
And no old geezers included.

I was the awkward squad. I was age 78, my Gleason 9. But Mark Emberton
agreed to take me on, outside the trials, the first above G7 and
getting on a bit.  So, as the tabloids might have put it, but didn't,
"I Was a HIFU Guinea-Pig".

Subsequently: a) I am still here - HIFU did a great job on the
prostate - it was, you might say, if you were Tony Soprano, whacked,
or as my consultant noted happily, ablated.

b) I am due to have a second HIFU within a week (HIFU is repeatable
if needed) -on the Seminal Vesicle (SV).

At last, we get to: My HIFU Experiences:

Monday April 10th 2006 I was operated on for four hours. I was out on
Wednesday - a day later than due as I was very woozy after the
anaesthetic (other guys -same day). I had absolutely no pain following
the procedure. A catheter insertion was part of the op. It was no
problem -especially with a tap on the end -just open it when you want
to go, like ordinary peeing. It was taken out April 26th.

The only side effects have been urinal.  The rest of the year I
developed some urge incontinence (you get about a minute between
feeling you gotta go and getting there) and also some stress
incontinence (yawning, bending down, coughing), and general difficulty
peeing. This is caused by scarring in the urethra. I had to
self-catheter from time to time. For the nervous like me, the thought
may be awful. But it then becomes really no big deal. Takes only a
minute or two.

I developed a problem with it however - caused by a feature of the UK
Health Service. At the end of the day you get action by some skilled
surgeons. Costs nothing except years of taxes. But in between times
it's a minimum three months between consultations. And after waiting
an hour and more for your appointment in a massive queue of
outpatients, half of whom seem not to be able to speak English, and
some  clearly  will never have paid any UK taxes as I have all my
life, (racist remark? I'm too old, and grumpy, to care about
politically correct epithets drowning a simple truth) - it's a quick
five-ten minutes and then "Next" -even with the brightest consultant.

For a few monthsI had difficulty and pain, self-cathetering. I was
gripping and pushing the catheter in like an all-in wrestler and it
was bouncing out. Replies to my email questions were that I try a
different catheter. Same result. In October I'd had enough and paid
for immediate private treatment with my original urologist, who is
local and really bright - he'd got me into the HIFU programme in
London. After cystoscopy he told me he didn't know how I'd cathetered
at all, as the entry to the bladder was closed. Dilation followed
-also back in London which was followed up by a five-minute op. to
make a larger incision in the bladder. After that much less
cathetering and no problem when I did. As of today sixteen months
after the op, it all seems to have settled down with no further
cathetering.

My upcoming HIFU
At the time of my firt HIFU a biopsy revealed no problem in the
Seminal Vesicles. An MRI scan this year indicated Pca had spread to
the left Seminal Vesicle. The subsequent biopsy was Gleason 3+4  (T3B
No Mo) better than my long departed prostate 4+5. Recently  My problem
in dealing with the SV is described as "complicated". At one time Mark
met the Radiology and Drug treatment specialists in the hospital to
discuss what was best.

This is my layman's understanding of my situation. The seminal vesicle
is stuck on the bladder; also the bottom of the Ureter, a tube from
the kidney for urine flow, nearly meets the SV. The MRI scan suggested
a possible cancer spot at that point (dilation) but it may also have
been due to a full bladder. The distance between knocking off the SVca
and the dilated spot is tiny. In my case the affected SV is on the
left side; as the dice would have it that's also the side of my much-
treasured one-and-only (congenital) kidney. So, proceed with care
please - and, if you'd be so kind, with supreme accuracy! The
Sonablate 500 HIFU system used at UCH works in computer-controlled
real time, and this, I am advised gives greater opportunities for such
tiny calculations. Hopefully, this will be proved correct next week!
HIFU is in any case very new. But, one way or the other, in dealing
with all the combinations of my precise condition, including I suppose
that I'm 80 shortly, there is almost no experience with HIFU. The side
effects are the usual urinary problems, or a fistula (rectum getting
involved, definitely don't want) - the same as if I had had radiology.
But it seems they can be fixed, would be only temporary. (Still don't
want the F word.!)

For all the reasons I asked for the boss to do the op. The team it
seems share my desire. That's reassuring. Mark has probably got more
experience than anybody in the UK in this process.. I have every
confidence in him.

I had been seriously considering whether or not I wanted to undergo
more treatment. A recent MRI scan showed I have developed no
metastase, which considering the aggressiveness of my Pca is
excellent. I asked if it would definitely spread if I don't deal with
the SV. Yes. This seems backed up by my PSA readings.:

PSA             14.11 October 25 2005
(HIFU op, April 2006)
PSA Post HIFU 2006
June 30          0.681
July 25         0.812  
October 23         2.6
November 21      3.0
2007  
26th February     4.9  
5th July                 6.0

My PSAV (velocity - see http://pcngcincinnati.org/psa/calculator.html
for a brilliant easy calculator) is a trifle over the top.

I don't have any fears except for F even short term. As to the outcome
I am most concerned about my wife. She knows when I am I am with her.
I have arranged to go into her nursing home the first days I am back.
This will give me a rest - and my wife is sure to be able to see me,
as normally I have to drive, otherwise over a week or more she is
likely to worry.

Sorry this is, after all,  long again. Sure to have missed things. May
be a little time before I contact again. But I would most welcome all
the usual valuable comments.

These are HIFU links I gave in my first post, and still are as good as
any.
Mark Emberton is Senior Lecturer in Oncological
Urology,(http://www.ucl.ac.uk/uroneph/review99/m_emberton.htm) UCLH
London

For a good introduction to HIFU, and all aspects of prostate
treatment, especially non-invasive, Marc Laniado is at
http://www.drmarc.co.uk/ and I can vouch that he's top class.

You can read excellent detail about HIFU on:
http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/novelthr/Chinn_TransrectalHIFU.html.
chasjac too - 15 Aug 2007 13:22 GMT
Hello, Mike:

Every story about Alzheimer's is so heartbreaking.  I wish there was
something to be done about it -- I guess all we can do is to make our loved
ones stricken with it as happy as possible.  Your arranging to be near your
wife as she recovers will mean a lot.  

Your HIFU experience sounds encouraging.  Does anyone know whether there are
any plans to make this available in the US?  

--charlie

Signature

6/2006 PSA 5.2
          DRE suspicious
7/2006 Biopsy
          2 of 10 positive
          Gleason 7(3+4)
11/2006 LRP
           Clear margins
1/2007 PSA < 0.01
3/2007 PSA < 0.01
6/2007 PSA < 0.01
so far, so good

cmdrdata - 15 Aug 2007 19:40 GMT
> PSA                     14.11 October 25 2005
> (HIFU op, April 2006)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 26th February   4.9
> 5th July                        6.0

Mike, thanks for sharing your experience. When I was initially
diagnosed
with PC I looked into HIFU and briefly consider it, but since it was
not
available in the US, I did not go much further.  I  am sorry to see
your PSA
dropped and then climbed again.  Makes you wonder if they had missed
some area of the prostate when you had your first HIFU.
Steve Kramer - 15 Aug 2007 20:28 GMT
> First. Some apologies.

None needed, Mike.  You have obviously been busy and no one here, I'm sure,
would second guess your chosen priorities.  My mother had 12 years of breaks
of her hips, femur, etc. and my father-in-law died from Alzheimer's.  I
cannot imagine trying to combine the two or carrying for one who has.  And,
worse, unless my Luproned brain fails me, didn't she also have a stroke, or
mini-strokes?

> When I first posted about my
> coming HIFU in 2006 it was to add to the information. But I haven't
> yet followed up with experiences as I promised to do.

As I recall, you posted a year ago and your PSA was creeping up.

> Sorry this is, after all,  long again. Sure to have missed things. May
> be a little time before I contact again.

Hopefully not another year.  We are interested in your progress.

> But I would most welcome all
> the usual valuable comments.

No valuable comments from me.  You are one of precious few HIFU patients to
come our way.  It seems that the work done on your prostate should indicate
a successful banishment of your SV.  However, as you know, a cure after SVI
is a long shot.  But still, at 80(?), if you knock out the mass in your SV,
you should be sitting pretty for the rest of your life, I would think.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                       PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04 (06/12/2007)
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Alan Meyer - 16 Aug 2007 00:56 GMT
Thanks for the update Mike.

I'm very sorry to hear about your wife.  I think the one
thing I fear more than cancer is Alzheimer's Disease.
My Mom and my mother-in-law both had it, and my Dad
also suffered significant dementia in the last couple of
years of his life.

There is an Internet support group at alt.support.alzheimers.
Some of the people there are really experienced and well
versed in all of the problems that caregivers face.  I
recommend them.

As for the HIFU, it sounds like your odds of success with
any treatment were very limited.  It didn't cure you, but
maybe it did as well as radiation would have done.  There's
no way to know.  In any case, your report of side effects
was most interesting.  We'll all be very interested to
hear how your second round turns out.

As I understand it, patients who have had radiation, and
maybe surgery too (I don't know), can try HIFU as a
second round treatment.  That may be a help to a lot
of patients.

   Alan
MikeHi - 16 Aug 2007 10:52 GMT
Sincere thanks for such early replies.  
CHASJAC:
>Does anyone know whether there are
>any plans to make this available in the US?
Hit Google with "Hifu in USA" - Loads of info and availability. In USA
you'll need the insurance cover. Good luck.

CMDRDATA
>I  am sorry to see your PSA dropped and then climbed again.  
>Makes you wonder if they had missed some area of the prostate when you had your first HIFU.<
No the prostate totally ablated. There was one shred left but the SV
biopsy also checked the shred and there was nothing there. However I
also wondered about it's recent diagnosis. In June 2005 an MRI
"observed" Ca in seminal vesicle but biopsy proved negative. Could
biopsy miss? But ca invading as micro before the crafty stuff grows to
traceability is also a fact. Note above my friend re USA if it's still
a possibility for you.

STEVE:
One of the ever-reliable and supportive in this group. Re my posting
frequency.
>Hopefully not another year.  We are interested in your progress.<
That's a promise.
>>…. unless my Luproned brain fails me, didn't she also have a stroke, or mini-strokes?<
(I reported my wife's 'Alzheimer'.)
You're quite right. Here's a confession Steve. My wife has in fact
Multi-Infarct dementia - which follows multi ministrokes. But to me
'dementia' sounds awful - echoes today perhaps of Harry Potter's
ghastly Dementers (where no doubt Rowling picked up the word). And if
you think about it it's not much used in general conversation  -
'mentally confused state' is the normal euphemism. Alzheimer's is no
less awful but somehow more accepted as a word. Confused thinking
here.. Silly of me to have ducked it in this newsgroup.
>Ø    However, as you know, a cure after SVI
>is a long shot.  But still, at 80, if you knock out the mass in your SV,
>you should be sitting pretty for the rest of your life, I would think.
I knew the long shot. But your comment that octogenarians may at last
have found an edge has brought a great big smile to this one. I
remember seeing an earlier post -maybe from you?- that lack of
testosterone at this age could be a factor. Thanks and a big smiley.

ALAN: Another ever-reliable.
>There is an Internet support group at alt.support.alzheimers<
Although my wife has (see above) multi-infarct dementia,  the
condition for the sufferers and for their loved ones is so similar
that professionals have also recommended me to Alzheimers support
groups.  Thank you for your support reference..
>>As I understand it, patients who have had radiation, and
>maybe surgery too (I don't know), can try HIFU as a
>second round treatment.  That may be a help to a lot
>of patients.<
I understand too that that's true. In fact it can work both ways. If
the HIFU doesn't work you can go on to radiation.

.
Steve Kramer - 16 Aug 2007 17:23 GMT
> (I reported my wife's 'Alzheimer'.)
> You're quite right. Here's a confession Steve. My wife has in fact
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> less awful but somehow more accepted as a word. Confused thinking
> here.. Silly of me to have ducked it in this newsgroup.

Due to some mental conditions within her family, my wife joined NAMI (I
think it stands for National Alliance for the Mentally Ill).  She is now an
instructor, teach families of mentally ill and otherwise impaired people
what is really going on.  She also did a 3-week stint at the University of
Washington regarding brain research.

Some of what she has learned rubs off on me.  From what little I have
gleaned through said osmosis, there is very little difference from dementia
and Alsheimer's patients, including symptoms and treatment.  I hope one
silver lining might be that her's, without more strokes, is not progressive.

I guess what I am saying is do not feel guilt for using a term that is most
readily understood.  The differences are negligible.  Both are just as sad.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                       PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04 (06/12/2007)
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Researcher - 17 Aug 2007 10:15 GMT
> > (I reported my wife's 'Alzheimer'.)
> > You're quite right. Here's a confession Steve. My wife has in fact
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> PSA <0.04, <0.05, <0.04 (06/12/2007)
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum

High-Intensity Focused Ultrasound (HIFU) for prostate cancer - an
merging minimally invasive therapy
http://www.urosource.com/diseases/prostate-cancer/view/article/high-intensity-fo
cused-ultrasound-hifu-for-prostate-cancer-an-merging-minimally-invasive-therapy/
?tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=32&cHash=803c0f936d

Lud - 17 Aug 2007 16:35 GMT
..
> "I Was a HIFU Guinea-Pig".
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> At last, we get to: My HIFU Experiences:....

Thanks Mike for recounting all the details of your experience with
HIFU - very helpful.

Wish you good health.

Ludwick
rosbif - 18 Aug 2007 16:13 GMT
A belated (ablated?) salut MIKEHI.  You appear to be in lively spirits
though I'm so sorry to hear about your wife.  You say she knows when
you're with her. That must be a comfort at least?  

You appear to be getting royal treatment from the HIFU team and while
I sympathise with your gripe about NHS consultations, my experience of
the private counterpart is little better, it's a scam, they give you
20 minutes officially, at 25 you'd better be on your last question or
else.  Ok, if you want you can remake an appointment and go back for
another Q/A and the cost is met but there's little sense of care or
concern.  That's how it is in my local bupa, anyway.

I wish you the very best of luck with your second HIFU whammy - it
sounds to me as though considerable care is being taken to size up
your current condition and that must augur well......keep the posts
coming when you can, you're helping to build a valuable resource and
you'll be read for years to come! - r
MikeHi - 19 Aug 2007 09:39 GMT
Thanks a lot to Luc.

..and Hi Rosbif

Nice to hear from you. Couldn't help a little grin as I read your
piece. Also being from the Sceptred Isle  I'm sure you know the famous
comic scene where a few comedians with broad Northern accents (for
ex-Colonials that indicates highly working class in the class-conscous
SI) are talking about their hard upbringing.: " I lived in a house
with one room and had only a slice of bread for breakfast".
"In a house! You could afford a house! We lived in a small room and
had only half a slice for breakfast."
Guy 3: " A room! And half a slice! We lived in a box, and had half a
dog biscuit a day!"
"A box!. You could afford a box! And a bit of dog biscuit!...."   etc
etc.

Hence me: "Rosbif. You got 25 minutes..!"

But I agree the fact that my medical bits and pieces present problems
for a new medical technoogy have allowed me to be carefully considered
by a highly talented team. The sharp difference I think between the
NHS and private is that NHS a patient can never be sure he will see
his named consultant at the appointment, and more to the point, know
who will actually perform the op. It can just as well be a learner.
That's why I asked for an asssurance. But that was fine for them.
Indeed, one admin contact who is charming and efficient replying to my
repeated question, "Are you sure I'll have Mark?" finally laughed out
loud and giggled "Nobody else will touch you!"  For me this was not
only hilarious - but the most reassuring thing she could have said! I
fell about laughing and she did the same on the other end of the
phone.  It really uplifted me -as do the messages from you guys!

We'll speak again. My last pre-op post. Sincere thanks and heartfelt
good wishes to everybody in this group, including caring wives.

/snip
>while I sympathise with your gripe about NHS consultations, my experience of
>the private counterpart is little better, it's a scam, they give you
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>coming when you can, you're helping to build a valuable resource and
>you'll be read for years to come! - r
rosbif - 22 Aug 2007 10:45 GMT
>"A box!. You could afford a box! And a bit of dog biscuit!...."   etc>etc.

Haha! - I watched monty python regularly at the time.  you can watch
an incarnation of that sketch on youtube:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeXMKygwSco

Don't know if it's your sort of thing but R4 are doing a Victorian
comedy spoof called Bleak Expectations, Wednesdays at 11:30 am
(today!).  Some silliness but also very funny in parts..

...available on the 'listen again' page at

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/bleakexpectations/
 
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