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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2007

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New ADT survival advantage analysis

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I.P. Freely - 26 Jun 2007 03:36 GMT
Walsh's updated (June 2007) book is on the shelves now. I spent only a
few minutes glancing through it, but noticed quickly that it updates
answers to many questions we've raised here over the past couple of
years. For more details, see the book. I'll buy it when my PC returns.

My glance quickly zeroed in on ADT, since I made a challenging decision
about it 30 months ago and will probably face the same choice again some
year. I was relieved to see it reinforced that choice on both levels in
his section on when to begin ADT. My research then concluded that
post-RP ADT extended our life span by 6-8 months on average, and some
more recent research hints at a possibility of another 6 months in
certain narrow scenarios. Now he says those are not the case. Starting
on page 479 his discussion of his new ADT paradigms shows data proving
ADT adds no survival advantage after surgery, reinforcing his
long-standing inclination that maybe we should wait until we have
symptoms. Whether it's as soon as our surgery heals, at the return of
PSA, when positive scans arise, or at the onset of symptoms, it adds no
survival time. It didn't matter whether it was short ADT, IAD, or years
of it; it's the hormone insensitive PC that kills us, and hormones have
no effect on it. Thus, he muses, why mess up our QOL up with ADT until
our *cancer* is messing up our QOL? I suspect that's why my onc, who
prescribed ADT after my RP, now says it's less often prescribed "just in
case".

Earlier in that chapter he concluded that CAB (combined androgen
blockade) adds no benefit to more basic ADT, as we've seen for some time
now.

I.P.
I.P. Freely - 26 Jun 2007 05:39 GMT
> Walsh's updated (June 2007) book ... says ADT adds no survival advantage
> after surgery

Yet as I listen to Lam's lecture now, Lam is apparently saying he
credits ADT with a *decade* of extra survival after relapse. So in one
day the survival benefit of ADT is decreased by 100% to zero and
increased by 112 months/1400% to 120 months.

Anybody want to explain that controversy? Part of it is that Walsh's
conclusion applies exclusively to RP pts, whereas I'll bet Lam's figure
applies to all ADT pts. And I read only one section of Walsh's new book,
and only once. Even then, ten years vs zero?

I.P.
MAS - 26 Jun 2007 12:24 GMT
You might try reading Snuffy Myers article, It does not differ from my
persoanl experiences thusfar.

http://prostate-cancer.org/education/andeprv/Myers_HormonalTherapyDiet.html

Gourd Dancer

>> Walsh's updated (June 2007) book ... says ADT adds no survival advantage
> > after surgery
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> I.P.
Just - 26 Jun 2007 17:32 GMT
I received today  by mail the May 2007 issue of PCRI Insights. The
Charles Myers article is also included.  

There is a reference to a recent Charles Myers book: "Beating Prostate
Cancer: Hormonal Therapy and Diet".

Has anyone read this book? Comments?

Just

>You might try reading Snuffy Myers article, It does not differ from my
>persoanl experiences thusfar.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>
>> I.P.

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I.P. Freely - 26 Jun 2007 18:01 GMT
> You might try reading Snuffy Myers article, It does not differ from my
> persoanl experiences thusfar.

At a quick glance (that's a long, rambling article), Snuffy's argument
is based on three factors:
1. Anecdotal experience, which means nothing and thus turned me off
immediately.
2. Touchy-feely attitudinal stuff.
3. Survival plots as different from Walsh's huge VA consorts as night
differs from oranges.

I.P.
MAS - 27 Jun 2007 05:11 GMT
Your question; your decision not to seek an answer.

>> You might try reading Snuffy Myers article, It does not differ from my
>> persoanl experiences thusfar.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I.P.
I.P. Freely - 27 Jun 2007 07:03 GMT
> Your question; your decision not to seek an answer.

Sorry if I seem to have dismissed your response too casually. The study
by Messing reported by Snuffy is much smaller, narrower, and shorter
than Walsh's data (decades of VA patient data), and I've never seen any
study supporting even 15% of the decade Lam claims. Unless someone can
steer me to a more definitive one, I'll go with Johns-Hopkins'/Walsh's
reputation and far larger body of data.

I.P.
kh - 27 Jun 2007 09:55 GMT
> Your question; your decision not to seek an answer.

I'll take a look but if Steve K's experience is a guide, hormone
treatment can yield terrific results.  There is a price in side
effects but that comes with everything.

When did Casodex come into wide use and why did it "help" when Steve
added it to Lupron?

-kh sweating miserably here, not a hot flash, it's just hot.
I.P. Freely - 27 Jun 2007 19:54 GMT
> I'll take a look but if Steve K's experience is a guide, hormone
> treatment can yield terrific results.

Any one person's *belief* that ADT gave him one minute, let alone years,
of extra survival may be comforting to him, but in fact is generally
unprovable and is absolutely meaningless to anyone else.

I.P.
 
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