thanks Bob for your nice words; eye glasses and car keys hare forgotten by anyone I know  with or without lupron: what concerns me are the ED and the hot flashes. For the colesterol I take simestat one pill a day and for gaining weight I should ask my wife  to cook smaller portions.
Hair loosing it is not a problem for me I could not care less. Let's hope that within 5 or six months I will post a different query because the 2 I mentioned are solved.
Colophony

Oh, it's pretty well understood. Google male andropause testosterone. I
just wasn't willing to give all that up for years to gain a few months'
extra breathing.

I've discussed and referenced all that and more several times. It's
readily available in extensive peer-reviewed studies and lay literature
(e.g. Diamond's "Male Menopause"), in my oncology board-reviewed
summaries posted here, and in anecdotal reports of similar SEs in our
forum poll since early '05. Perhaps some of you are actually believing
Steve Jordan's repeated and unexplained dismissals of Strum's ADT SE
discussions and its implications, his oblivious assessment of his own
devastating ADT SEs, and his and others' variously-worded accusations
that I'm an SE alarmist despite my lengthy lists of acclaimed sources
and the horror stories posted in this forum. This is a risk people take
when they pay attention to baseless ad hominem rather than extending
their research back to the source data I and others have posted here.

Sorry if this conjures up Steve's vendetta again, but, dammit, I'm far
more concerned about you folks' welfare than about his ADT-addled
sensitivities; he's the forum's problem now, not mine. You folks *must*
 help me encourage people to do their own extensive ADT research before
taking their doctor's or Steve's dismissals of ADT as a necessary,
manageable nuisance (no, that's not a quote, but it's an honest summary
from the archives) for people whose PC has not returned beyond a doubt.

Yeah, folks, I'm angry. Get over it. Your well-being, health, mental
capacity, careers, families, friends, even sanity are at stake in some
cases. You can tiptoe around this issue just to keep Jordan quiet, or
you can face it head on and prevent a great deal of unnecessary and/or
unanticipated misery reported by men told to accept ADT just in case.

If anyone wants to challenge my ADT SE posts over the past 30 months,
please do so. Just realize ad hominem does not hold water; meaningful
rebuttals must cite sources that outweigh the many I have cited,
including Strum, and the ever-increasing newer studies and expert
opinions reported right here indicating that ADT is vastly oversold and
underexplained by physicians.

I usually rewrite blasts like this before hitting SEND. Screw that.
There's too much at stake, and pussyfooting obviously isn't getting the
job done.

I.P.

I did have all the side effects but what bothered me most was the
fogginess in the head.   I work as a software engineer, on code.  I
don't "do meetings".   I'm a guy who builds the stuff that makes
machines work.

I could not follow long logic chains about the 3rd month on Lupron.
By the 5th month, I noticed that I was struggling to type my
password.  It wasn't that I couldn't remember it (which was also a
problem), it was that the unconscious, automatic, coordination was
failing. I should be able to rip these letters and numbers off because
I do this a dozen times a day.  My fingers were fumbling.

Driving became weird too.  I'm a very "clear" and alert driver.
Always aware of the flow of traffic around me, the sound of my tires,
engine speed, thumbs locked on the steering wheel.

About the time I noticed the problems with my password, I was feeling
"disconnected" from my car.  Driving became more difficult.

Hot flashes?  So what.  Just get where it's cool.  Joint pain, that
was a problem but a little pain killer goes a long way.  The blood
sugar and the triglycerides were a real concern but I have a baseline
blood panel and will handle those as they come up.  I'm also 25 pound
lighter now so that should help.

Lupron is a deal with the devil but with a PSA doubling time of (what
was it Steve?) 3 months and a PSA of 60, with the tumor strangling my
air and blood flow, I had to make that deal.

-kh

HI Bob

I am in the same boat of SEs that you have - drugs seem to affect me
more than normal and smallest doses are to much. Being on treatment
for over 8 years now, I have been through several cycles as follows:
2 years ADT with Zoladex, 1 year off, 1 year of HDC (high dose Casodex
= 150 mg), 2 years ADT with Zoladex + IMRT radiation, 1 year TDE
(transdermal estradiol patches 100mcg x 6), 1 year partially off and 3
cycles of Taxotere and now LDK + HC (low dose Ketoconazole 200 mg x 3
with Hydrocortisone 20 mg + 10 mg).

My worst side effects were from the Zoladex Txs - in the sequence that
encountered them:

1-  Before starting Zoladex I had been on a vegan diet for 3 months
and felt really great - 3 months after starting Zoladex, I was totally
depressed and feeling very suicidal. I dug out that hole buy having
some protein every 2 hours ( I tried several anti-depressants and they
only made me groggy.

2- Luckily I did not have any major hot flashes - I believe they are
caused by declining estradiol levels but not everyone is susceptible.

3- Mental impairment was a major problem for me - short term memory,
ability to multi-task or keep track of more than 1 idea were all gone
over time. Only years later I found how to manage these to some degree
by using a 50 mcg estradiol patch, having more protein and higher fat
diet.

4- Emotional and psychological impairment also kicks in and seems to
be affected by diet - but after 18 months I found it totally down,
crying, fear etc. Estrogen patches do help.

5- Bone loss starts with the estradiol decline, I was on Fosamax for
4.5 years and then on Zometa - it kept the bone density from
declining.

6- Muscle tone loss - turned soft from lack of testosterone - exercise
would have helped but the mental will was not there.

6- The side effects became worse after 18 months and at 2 years of
treatment, I felt like a vegetable - I existed but was not able to do
much - I was so desperate that I had to stop Zoladex.

7- Must comment on the sexual SEs - yes libido was totally gone but
with manual stimulation and greater effort it was still possible to
have an orgasm, dry of course and not the sensation.

8- HDC had minimal side effects, only problem was that PSA control did
not last long. Looking back, my testosterone was high normal range, my
serum estradiol level was above men's high range and my DHT was way
above normal range despite being on Proscar and probably the cause of
PSA failure.

7- Estradiol patch therapy was a JOY - most debilitating SEs of
Zoladex were not there and I could out-argue my wife for the first
time. The emotional and mental changes due to the high testosterone
and zero testosterone were very interesting - I found I was thinking
and feeling differently than as a man or a eunuch. It was not a bad
experience. Unfortunately it did nothing for HRPC control.

8- Must add the SEs from the Keto Tx- 3 weeks on and the SEs are more
tolerable than Zoladex, it remains to be seen how it progresses. Great
news is that it is working against HRPC.

Over the years I have asked many patients about their side effects and
found that very few men admitted to having mental and emotional
problems from ADT, yet their wifes all said they had some. I hope men
would come forward to tell about their SEs and more importantly that
we all work at finding ways to counter these side effects. I hope this
helps someone.

Lud

On June 16, Ralph Valle wrote:

A brief history of his struggle with our disease.

It is an inspiration to us all.

Most certainly to me and to the myriad brothers he has helped and
continues to help every day.

Regards,

Steve J

"Never -- never -- never give up!  Never go gently.  There will be plenty of
gentle after we die, so until then, fight! Control the rhythms and tempo
of the dance, even when you have to let the PCa dancing bear lead for awhile
-- even when you have to wear the lead suit as you dance -- never let the
bear set the rhythm and tempo of your dance with life -- when the bear
finally takes control, it will be a very hollow feeling for him, because I
will be gone -- dancing in a better place."
--E. B. (Burns) Mixon, PCa survivor, June 14, 2005 on The Prostate
Problems Mailing List
Thank you, Burns. Live long and prosper.