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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / April 2007Do nothing...
Hi %-) What happens if you are 3-4-5 years "into it" and don't do nothing? You have about that many years left, but like what? Just slowely fade away? I have no deathwish, just wonder what would happen... H. On April 25, "H" wrote: > What happens if you are 3-4-5 years > "into it" and don't do nothing? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have no deathwish, just wonder > what would happen... Lacking a clinical record, there is simply no way to answer a question about PCa asked in this manner. But AIUI the worst case is, unless drugs are effective (they sometimes aren't), an agonizing death. Regards, Steve J "1. Hear my prayer, O Lord, and let my cry come unto thee. 2. Hide not thy face from me in the day when I am in trouble; incline thine ear unto me: in the day when I call answer me speedily. 3. For my days are consumed like smoke, and my bones are burned as an hearth. 4. My heart is smitten, and withered like grass; so that I forget to eat my bread. 5. By reason of the voice of my groaning my bones cleave to my skin. 6. I am like a pelican of the wilderness: i am like an owl of the desert. 7. I watch, and am a a sparrow alone upon the house top. 8. Mine enemies reproach me all the day; and they that are mad against me are sworn against me. 9. For I have eaten ashes like bread, and mingled my drink with weeping. 10. Because of thine indignation and thy wrath: for thou hast lifted me up, and cast me down. 11. My days are like a shadow that declineth; and I am withered like grass." --Psalm 102 Oboy... I left it quite open for a purpose; - I wanted to hear various opiniens from you without too specific info... I 'm not sure if I want to know... your answer was of course not what I wanted. But, maybe the one I needed... H. > On April 25, "H" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > grass." > --Psalm 102 >Oboy... I left it quite open for a purpose; - I wanted >to hear various opiniens from you without too specific [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >H. FWIW, when I was first diagnosed my Uro told me that if I did nothing that in about 10 years I'd start having pain from the spread of cancer to the bone. How accurate that is I can't say. I decided not to find out. >> On April 25, "H" wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> grass." >> --Psalm 102 > Hi %-) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have no deathwish, just wonder > what would happen... Go to the book store. Read the first page of the Preface to "Dr. Patrick Walsh's Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer". If that doesn't persuade you to read the next several chapters, nothing will. I.P. > Hi %-) > > What happens if you are 3-4-5 years > "into it" and don't do nothing? When I was diagnosed with PCa last year, my wife and I wasted no time in deciding on a treatment and getting it done. A few years before, we had watched one of her uncles die of PCa. It is not pleasant, and certainly is not just a 'fading away.'. Once it metastasizes, if it gets into one of your organs you will be lucky in that it will cause organ failure and death will follow fairly quickly. If it gets to your bones it will just wear you down with the pain. And most of what he went through was unnecessary. Had he dealt with it earlier -- even if after it had begun to metastasize -- there were things he could have done that might have slowed it, like hormone treatments. Now in some cases, your doctor might recommend active surveillance, also known as 'watchful waiting.' But that is not the same thing as doing nothing, in that you and your doctor would agree on not only agressive monitoring with frequent PSA tests and periodic biopsies, but also action triggers, like your PSA rising above a certain level or a second biopsy showing spread within the prostate. If you have PCa, you should deal with it. Get educated about your options, choose the one that fits you best, get a good doctor you trust to begin treatments. There's too much at stake. All the best, Charlie Thank you all! This has been an educational week... Not what I wanted to hear; - but then all dreams don't come true. No "fading away" with this puppy... Any good PCa doc's in the Kansas City area? H. > > Hi %-) > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Charlie On April 26, "H" wrote: > Any good PCa doc's in the Kansas City area? The authoritative website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute (PCRI) lists many but not all PCa medics at: http://prostate-cancer.org/resource/special.html It would likely be helpful to meet with a local chapter of the support group Us Too International. Local chapters are listed on their website at: http://www.ustoo.com/chapter_nearyou.asp Men and their ladies will be very forthcoming... Good luck. Regards, Steve J "Never choose an Institution -- if (you do) so, you will be labeled as having an 'edifice complex.' Choose the doc, not the building." -- Stephen B. Strum, MD (See, "Oedipus Rex" by Sophocles) "Once it metastasizes, ... If it gets to your bones it will just wear you down with the pain." After 36 months post mets discovered in two locations of my spine, not once did I ever experience pain. After six months of trial chemo, both mets are gone and remained so for 28 months to date.. Now, the cancer may come back, but that is not my decision. I suggest to all that proactivity in a treatment plan is essential for the possibility of survival. Gourd Dancer >> Hi %-) >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Charlie > Hi %-) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I have no deathwish, just wonder > what would happen... Watch "The Shootist." Jimmy Stewart describes it pretty well to John Wayne. Besides, there is a possibility for a cure for you. You're only 58. Why check out with a painful death in a couple of years? What happens if you are 3-4-5 years "into it" and don't do nothing? You have about that many years left, but like what? Just slowly fade away? I have no deathwish, just wonder what would happen... H. ===> hi h - well, since you didn't like what you have heard so far, you really won't like what i'm going to say..... first of all, here's the characteristics of the cancer. each type of cancer grows differently. like kidney tumors grow in a ball. prostate cancer grows in finger like growths much like crab grass. it grows along the inside edge looking for a way to get out which is either through the seminal vessels or the holes where the nerves go through. at the same time, it's chewing on the prostate capsule. once it chews it's way through the prostate capsule, then it makes ti's way to the lymph nodes and will spread throughout your whole body. the tissue separating your colon from your prostate is about the thickness of tissue paper, so it sits up shop there. it NEVER GIVES UP A SMALL CELL THAT IT TAKES OVER. so, today is the best it's going to get. tomorrow, the cancer is going to take over more. you can NOT co-exist with this cancer. it will either kill you or you will have to kill it. so, the only hope that you have is to catch it while it is still inside the prostate gland. there are only two options you have. surgery radiation if you have surgery and if the cancer was to reoccur, you have a second chance for a cure by having radiation. if you have radiation first, the surgery option is pretty well removed off of the treatment options. as the cancer chews you up, you will feel like everything is ok. it is only after the cancer spreads to your lower back and hips that attacks the bone and causes the bone to collapse on the nerves that you will get the lower back pain. right now, the decision is in your court. it normally takes about 13 years from start to finish. 8 years to mest. from the prostate and 5 years until death. the jokers in the deck are: - you don't know when the cancer first started - the higher the gleason score, the faster the cancer grows and shortens the time span to death. - how much psa is in your body available for the cancer to feed on. - right now, your health may be strong to support surgery, but if you waited and something were to happen to your health, then the surgery option would not be offered. - the last three years, you will be in pain management. the last year of my dad's life, he was begging me to put him out of his misery. i decided that i wouldn't take the route he did which was watchful waiting. you will read all kinds of opinions and views as well as research that will say that you can wait and it not kill you or that you need to get it out. but if you have noticed, the researchers still can't figure out whether salt is good or bad for you. so, there you have it. any questions, just ask. ~ curtis knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc On April 26, Curtis replied to "H", in pertinent part: (ka-snip) > if you have surgery and if the cancer was to reoccur, you have a second > chance for a cure by having radiation. That's the mantra of the surgery advocates, but I wonder whether it's a fact. The operative (no pun intended) word is, "cure." Second to that is, "reoccur." "Reoccur" is a slippery word. If the cancerous prostate is removed, but PCa cells have taken up residence in, for example, the pelvic lymph nodes, the cancer was never "cured." It simply was not affected by the surgery and its later discovery is NOT a "recurrence." It was never gone. This is not a matter of splitting hairs. It is a matter of life and death. "Cure" is also slippery. Some say that no "recurrence" in ten years is a "cure" and I sincerely hope that that's correct. To my point: if the cancer is discovered after surgery NOT to have been "cured" how do we know where the cells are located? And if we do not know where they are, how do we know where to direct the radiotherapy? Radiotherapy is not a cure-all tx after failed RP. Nothing is simple. Especially in the tx of PCa. Regards, Steve J "Flagrantly, we docs ignore the declaration of biology. We do this out of ignorance, greed or both. The prime directive of the physician, the real physician, is patient outcome, & not physician income (or ego)." -- Stephen B. Strum, MD On April 26, Curtis replied to "H", in pertinent part: (ka-snip) if you have surgery and if the cancer was to reoccur, you have a second chance for a cure by having radiation. That's the mantra of the surgery advocates, but I wonder whether it's a fact. The operative (no pun intended) word is, "cure." Second to that is, "reoccur." "Reoccur" is a slippery word. If the cancerous prostate is removed, but PCa cells have taken up residence in, for example, the pelvic lymph nodes, the cancer was never "cured." It simply was not affected by the surgery and its later discovery is NOT a "recurrence." It was never gone. This is not a matter of splitting hairs. It is a matter of life and death. "Cure" is also slippery. Some say that no "recurrence" in ten years is a "cure" and I sincerely hope that that's correct. To my point: if the cancer is discovered after surgery NOT to have been "cured" how do we know where the cells are located? And if we do not know where they are, how do we know where to direct the radiotherapy? Radiotherapy is not a cure-all tx after failed RP. Nothing is simple. Especially in the tx of PCa. Regards, Steve J ===> hi steve - really the bottom line to all of this is that we are all "survivors". as to being cured, i guess the only way we would know is when they do an autopsy on us after we die. as to what i said about if you have surgery and if the cancer was to reoccur, you have a second chance for a cure by having radiation. my point was trying to be simple and straight forward. as you already know, when we are dx'ed with pca, we have two basic common methods of killing the pca. cutting it out or burning it with radiation. for a patient who had radiation as their first choice of treatment, the body's cell structure has been altered. on autopsies, you can clear see the demarcation line of where the radiation was. the tissue is not like normal tissue but much like what leather is. and really when one thinks about it. if you were to put a piece of meat into the microwave and fry it, doesn't it exhibit similar properties?? as to the term 'cure' and the 10 year rule, i agree with you, i hope it is true, but didn't we just have a poster here last month or so who was over the 10 year post op and after all the undetectable psa's now has recurrence??? on your comment....... To my point: if the cancer is discovered after surgery NOT to have been "cured" how do we know where the cells are located? And if we do not know where they are, how do we know where to direct the radiotherapy? Radiotherapy is not a cure-all tx after failed RP. ===> i would say that hopefully the psa test would sound the alarm early enough so that any pca that was left behind would still be in the prostate bed and that is what they do..... a wide sweep radiation of the prostate bed in hopes of killing it before it can get out of the area. is radiotherapy a cure-all tx after a failed RP? no, but it is the best chance after a failed RP in trying to stop it. ~ curtis knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc > What happens if you are 3-4-5 years > "into it" and don't do nothing? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I have no deathwish, just wonder > what would happen... I was diagnosed in 2001, so I'm 6 years "into it." Decided on RT, went to the Cancer Center for my first treatment, and, lo and behold, they lost my appointment and had another guy on the table. I left and never came back. Meanwhile my PSA went from 10.1 to 11.0 to 5.something. (Same lab) Each of the 3 urologists I visited attempted to RUSH me into RT without describing ALL of the side effects. The 1st one lied about not being a candidate for the seeds because I was 40 pounds overweight. The last bastard lost 5 years of my medical records. I'm currently seeing an oncologist and he and I (and my wife) agreed on watchful waiting. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
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