Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2007
Great check Up Today Pca 0.7
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Ben - 29 Mar 2007 00:03 GMT Hi Gang: Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, one year after the last Zoladex needle. I realize of course that this is not the end and that there is no permanent cure but the cancer specialist was very happy with my progress. I am of course elated and grateful to the medical treatments available today. I do however take part of the credit myself; just a little because of the Contrarian all fours meditation that I came up with three years ago. I will continue with that, once a day as long as I'm able. Ben
Nov. 17 2003 DRA not enlarged @ 65(Family Doctor) Nov. 20, 03 PCA 43 Feb. 3 2004 PCa 38 (1st Urologist appointment) Feb. 4, 20 04 Bone scan neg. Feb. 26 biopsy Stage T1c Gleason 7 3+4 Right 2 of 3 pos. 50%; left 1 of 3 pos. 5 - 10 % Mar. 31 start Cipro 7 days +14 +14 Apr. 8 PCa 40 Apr. 19 PCa 31.5 May 31. Start radiation 35 days June 1. First Zoladex needle / Sept. / Nov. 18 / Jan 05 / May 4 Jun. 1 Psa 18 June 19 Ofloxacin for infected seminal vessel for ten days. July 19 Last day radiation treatment Sept. PCa <.1 May 4 2005 PCa <.1 April 19 2006 PCa <.1 OCt. 11 2006 PCa <.1 March 28, 2007 Pca 0.7
Steve Jordan - 29 Mar 2007 00:56 GMT > Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, one year > after the last Zoladex needle. I realize of course that this is not > the end and that there is no permanent cure but the cancer specialist > was very happy with my progress. I suspect that what Ben refers to is *PSA*, meaning prostate specific antigen. "PCa" means "prostate cancer."
> I am of course elated and grateful to the medical treatments available > today. I do however take part of the credit myself; just a little > because of the Contrarian all fours meditation that I came up with > three years ago. I will continue with that, once a day as long as I'm > able. I must now go into "wet blanket " mode.
IMO, Ben is overly optimistic.
> Nov. 17 2003 DRA not enlarged @ 65(Family Doctor) What were Ben's symptoms? In other words, why was the DR*E* (digital rectal examination) performed? What does the "65" mean? Cubic centimeters? Other?
> Nov. 20, 03 PCA 43 > Feb. 3 2004 PCa 38 (1st Urologist appointment) This is possible evidence of a serious problem that requires investigation.
> Feb. 4, 20 04 Bone scan neg. Meaning very little except that there are no metastases that the scan could detect.
> Feb. 26 biopsy Stage T1c Gleason 7 3+4 Right 2 of 3 pos. 50%; left > 1 of 3 pos. 5 - 10 % The "T" stage is determined by DRE, not by biopsy.
It appears that Ben had a "sextant" (six-specimen) biopsy. This is known to be inadequate and was so known in 2004. I call this "third-world medicine."
> Mar. 31 start Cipro 7 days +14 +14 Why Cipro? This is used to treat infections.
> Apr. 8 PCa 40 > Apr. 19 PCa 31.5 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > OCt. 11 2006 PCa <.1 > March 28, 2007 Pca 0.7 Ben's PSA has risen .6 in five months. Red flag! The PCa might be systemic. If so, no local treatments such as radiation will help.
I recommend that Ben run, not walk, to the nearest MEDICAL oncologist (a real live cancer specialist), preferably one who is familiar with PCa. A listing of some PCa specialists will be found on the authoritative website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute (PCRI) at http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html Search on Resources, then click on PC Doctors.
A competent med onc should be able to recommend the best means of addressing the situation.
Ben should also educate himself so that he is prepared to participate in treatment decisions.
Being empowered could just save his life.
I know that this is not pleasant for Ben to read. Sorry, but I am not here to hold hands and moo about everything being just fine. If I can help Ben to preserve his life, I will have accomplished my purpose.
Regards,
Steve J
Ben - 29 Mar 2007 01:58 GMT > > Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, one year > > after the last Zoladex needle. I realize of course that this is not [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > > Steve J @65 meant that I was 65 at the time Cipro was for an infection I had at the time. I was threated at the Kingston Regional Cancer Centerc with is attached tho the General Hospital in kingston which in turn is I think is a teaching hospital associated with Queens University Medical School. Who are you? What are your qualification to make such comments. Are you a Doctor? Ben
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 09:33 GMT >> I recommend that Ben run, not walk, to the nearest MEDICAL oncologist (a >> real live cancer specialist), preferably one who is familiar with PCa.
> Who are you? What are your qualification to make such comments. Are > you a Doctor? > Ben None of us are doctors, Ben. But, going from a succession of PSA readings of less than 1/10th of a nanogram to 7 10ths of a nanogram is not a hard concept to grasp.
Your graph would look something like this ________/
Steve's recommendation re a medical oncologist is sound.
And, no, I'm not a doctor either.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Heather - 29 Mar 2007 18:13 GMT >> I recommend that Ben run, not walk, to the nearest MEDICAL oncologist >> (a real live cancer specialist), preferably one who is familiar with >> PCa. OK, time for the *resident Canadian female* to jump in here, grin. Ben is at one of the finest hospitals in Ontario. In Kingston, Ontario. My Ron is at one of the 2 best in Toronto and it is the Regional Cancer Care Centre at Sunnybrook & Women's College Hospital.
Perhaps we do it differently up here, or perhaps our terminology is not the same. Sunnybrook is also our premiere trauma centre, followed by three others (closely). Source? ME. I ran the Cdn. International Air Show and had 3 hospitals on standby in case of a crash. Sunnybrook was the first, and also the farthest from the show. But you can't beat their trauma unit!!
Also......students fight to get into Queen's University for their medical education because it is considered the #1 university in Canada for a medical degree. I have known that for decades.
So don't be so hard on old Ben, grin. He is being well looked after by top doctors. He has been off HT for a year now.....the same as my husband. And it is not entirely surprising that his PSA would go up a tad. Ron's did too.
Cheers.....Heather, who is now going to look up Contrarian *whatever that was*....new one to me. Also not a doctor, but had them in the family. 8-))
> @65 meant that I was 65 at the time Cipro was for an infection I had > at the time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > you a Doctor? > Ben Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 18:59 GMT > OK, time for the *resident Canadian female* to jump in here, grin. Ben is > at one of the finest hospitals in Ontario. In Kingston, Ontario. My Ron > is at one of the 2 best in Toronto and it is the Regional Cancer Care > Centre at Sunnybrook & Women's College Hospital. Don't fret. If things get serious, you can sneak across the border.
> I ran the Cdn. International Air Show Canada has planes?
> So don't be so hard on old Ben, grin. "Old" Ben!?!?!?! He's only 68. I know a 75 year old (vicariously) who'd shoot you for calling a 68-year-old "old".
Heather - 29 Mar 2007 19:44 GMT Ditz.....see inline!!
>> OK, time for the *resident Canadian female* to jump in here, grin. >> Ben is at one of the finest hospitals in Ontario. In Kingston, >> Ontario. My Ron is at one of the 2 best in Toronto and it is the >> Regional Cancer Care Centre at Sunnybrook & Women's College Hospital. > > Don't fret. If things get serious, you can sneak across the border. Not on your life, sweet cheeks!! But our Government pays those bills anyway.....if we should ever have to do that.
>> I ran the Cdn. International Air Show > > Canada has planes? Yeppers.....Even at that time (1982) we had F-18's. The paint was still wet, grin. And we let the Thunderbirds try and keep up with our Snowbirds.
My favourite pilot was Art Scholl. He died filming stunts for Top Gun. Always had his dog Aileron with him. http://www.check-six.com/lib/Famous_Missing/Scholl.htm
>> So don't be so hard on old Ben, grin. > > "Old" Ben!?!?!?! He's only 68. I know a 75 year old (vicariously) > who'd > shoot you for calling a 68-year-old "old". Ahem......I know a 68 year old female who refuses to be called "OLD"!! Although there are days.......
XX Figgs
Ben - 29 Mar 2007 22:26 GMT > Ditz.....see inline!! > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > XX Figgs Just to clear things up when I wrote Cancer specialist, that should have been: Radiation Oncologist.MD, MSc, RPCPC. Associtate Professor, Department of Oncology Affilations. Now that's a mouthful. Ben
Heather - 30 Mar 2007 03:53 GMT > Just to clear things up when I wrote Cancer specialist, that should > have been: Radiation Oncologist.MD, MSc, RPCPC. Associtate Professor, > Department of Oncology Affilations. > Now that's a mouthful. > Ben Hi Ben.....now I will have to look up Ron's radiation oncologist's degrees, but he worked at Princess Margaret and is now doing studies, trials and research with Dr. Gerald Morton at Sunnybrook's Cancer Care Centre.
His name is Dr. Andrew Loblaw, which I know you will recognize.....yes, he is the great-grandson of *that Loblaw*. Brilliant youngish doctor and at the forefront of all the latest research.
Best....Heather PS....Love Chez Piggy, but haven't been there since last May.
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 09:27 GMT > Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, Ben,
I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you had 0.1 for more than two years. This 0.7 represents a significant spike.
Unless you meant 0.07.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
kh - 29 Mar 2007 13:39 GMT > > Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Unless you meant 0.07. Ben's EBRT radiation was in May 2004. He's within the 18-36 month, all bets are off, period for a post-radiation bounce.
He's also 1 year post-hormones, a PSA increase would not be unusual as his Testosterone level returns to normal.
PSA .7, if it holds long term, "could" be considered a good outcome for external radiation.
That's about it for the, "Could be OK" reasoning.
EBRT seems like "lite" treatment for his indicators, PSA, Gleason, %of cores positive. I think everyone has picked up on that.
On the other hand, at his age, what, 68 years old, if he's beaten it down to the point that it'll take 10 years to reassert itself, he might have won the battle and the war.
Especially if the other Quality of Life factors are in his favor. I'm thinking, run down by a jealous husband as he jumps out the window, pulling up his pants.
Whatever Ben, good luck to you.
-kh QOL
Ben - 29 Mar 2007 13:46 GMT > > "Ben" <Kli...@Cogeco.ca> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > -kh QOL Thanks, finally someone wh agrees with my Doctor. Any site on Prostate cancer that I had read up on, concurs that all or most men my age have a PSa reading even if there's NO cancer. So I don't see what all the fuss is about. Ben.
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 18:48 GMT > Thanks, finally someone wh agrees with my Doctor. Any site on Prostate > cancer that I had read up on, concurs that all or most men my age have > a PSa reading even if there's NO cancer. So I don't see what all the > fuss is about. Perhaps "fuss" is strong, so far as I am concerned. Personally, I'm generally on the optimistic side of things. I just didn't want you going into the next six months thinking that you are in the clear. I think you should be tested again in three months.
But, if you are comfortable with your doc and the potential bump as opposed to spike, I'm happy. No one here voices their opinions just to screw with your mind. Well, I did with David S. once, but I converted since then.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 18:43 GMT >> I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you had 0.1 for more than two >> years. This 0.7 represents a significant spike. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -kh QOL I will give you the points that it "could be" a bounce, testosterone could be rising, and it might not be bad news. But, it could also be the first of three rises and it would be folly to consider not knowing which a "good" checkup. This check up was a wake up call. Maybe nothing, maybe something. Nothing to panic over, or even anguish over.
And, I don't think it's a bad idea to have a medical oncologist's opinion. However, now that I re-think things, I don't know that he didn't already have an oncologist on board.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
kh - 30 Mar 2007 18:53 GMT ...
> This check up was a wake up call. Maybe nothing, maybe something. > Nothing to panic over, or even anguish over. My GUESS, It probably is a bounce and Ben's "T" (and consequently PSA) should be rising a year after ADT. As you say, a tighter series of inexpensive PSA tests would be reasonable but his priority should be his Quality of Life. I think that's the message from his doc.
QOL might be fast women or sexy cars, a Harley Davidson, sipping a $100 bottle of wine. Maybe taking his family on a trip to the Rockies, helping at the foodbank, writing that book on flytieing, digital photography, whatever it is he enjoys and enhances his Quality of Life.
QOL is not is obsessing about his odds (which are unknown but better than mine), or falling into a depressive funk.
I spend an intense 1/2 to 1 hour a day on Prostate Cancer, reading this list, thinking over what people are saying, checking Google News for new treatments but the rest of the time, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist. I got taxes and bills to pay, a job, women to oogle, food to prepare and eat, housework, yardwork season is starting, and so on.
-kh QOL is what you make of it.
Steve Kramer - 31 Mar 2007 01:11 GMT > ... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > inexpensive PSA tests would be reasonable but his priority should be > his Quality of Life. I can live with that.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 PSAD 0.19 years EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 PSAD .056 years Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 PSAD 1.4 years Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Alan Meyer - 30 Mar 2007 01:00 GMT Ben,
It seems to me that your latest follow-up could have been far, far worse than it was. As the two Steves have said, you're not yet known to be cancer free. However I think it is possible that you are cancer free and also possible that, if you're not, you're still in reasonably good shape and will die of something other than prostate cancer.
The first thing to notice is that we don't yet know whether your PSA is rising, falling, or staying the same. The rise from .1 to .7 doesn't tell us because the .1 was due to the Zoladex. It is possible that your underlying PSA would have been higher than .7 one year ago, but the Zoladex brought it down.
Secondly, we don't know the cause of your current .7 reading. It might be PSA being expressed by aging tumor cells that were stressed by radiation and, though still alive and expressing PSA, they are not able to divide and multiply. It might be due to prostatitis (yes, radiation patients can have prostatitis and yes, it does raise the PSA.) Or it might be due to active cancer.
Thirdly, if you still have active cancer, it is possible that it's a local recurrence that could be definitively treated by HIFU.
Fourthly, if you still have active cancer, and it is metastatic or otherwise un-amenable to local treatment, it may be slow growing enough that it can be managed for the rest of your life, perhaps with intermittent hormone therapy and/or some of the new drugs.
Finally, it could be an active cancer that will kill you.
I'm not a doctor, but I'm thinking that the odds are in your favor at this time.
Steve J's suggestion to see a medical oncologist specializing in PCa is never bad advice, but it seems to me that it is premature to seek additional medical treatment at this time. I think (remember that what I think isn't worth much!) that you need to have real evidence that you still have cancer before you accept any further treatment. Three successive rising PSA's is a commonly accepted, though not absolutely conclusive, indication of the presence of cancer after radiation treatment. You don't really know for sure that you've even had one rise (because the Zoladex masked the previous readings.) So I wouldn't jump into hormone therapy yet.
You might ask for more frequent PSA tests. It might be a good idea to get them every one, two, or three months instead of the 6 month schedule you appear to be on. I suggest you ask your doctor about this. If you still have active cancer you will find out sooner and have a little more time to plan further treatment.
When my PSA began to bounce around my rad onc gave me monthly tests until he saw a significant drop. Then he increased the interval so that now it's at one year.
Best of luck.
Alan
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