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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2007

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Great check Up Today Pca 0.7

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Ben - 29 Mar 2007 00:03 GMT
Hi Gang:
Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, one year
after the last Zoladex needle. I realize of course that this is not
the end and that there is no permanent cure but the cancer specialist
was very happy with my progress.
I am of course elated and grateful to the medical treatments available
today. I do however take part of the credit myself; just a little
because of the Contrarian all fours meditation that I came up with
three years ago. I will continue with that, once a day as long as I'm
able.
Ben

Nov. 17 2003 DRA not enlarged @ 65(Family Doctor)
Nov. 20, 03 PCA 43
Feb. 3 2004 PCa 38  (1st Urologist appointment)
Feb. 4, 20 04 Bone scan neg.
Feb. 26  biopsy Stage T1c Gleason 7 3+4  Right 2 of 3 pos. 50%; left
1
of 3 pos. 5 - 10 %
Mar. 31 start Cipro 7 days +14 +14
Apr. 8 PCa 40
Apr. 19 PCa 31.5
May 31. Start radiation 35 days
June 1. First Zoladex needle /  Sept. / Nov. 18 / Jan 05 / May 4
Jun. 1 Psa 18
June 19 Ofloxacin for infected seminal vessel for ten days.
July 19 Last day radiation treatment
Sept. PCa <.1
May 4 2005 PCa <.1
April 19 2006 PCa <.1
OCt. 11 2006 PCa <.1
March 28, 2007 Pca 0.7
Steve Jordan - 29 Mar 2007 00:56 GMT
> Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, one year
> after the last Zoladex needle. I realize of course that this is not
> the end and that there is no permanent cure but the cancer specialist
> was very happy with my progress.

I suspect that what Ben refers to is *PSA*, meaning prostate specific
antigen. "PCa" means "prostate cancer."

> I am of course elated and grateful to the medical treatments available
> today. I do however take part of the credit myself; just a little
> because of the Contrarian all fours meditation that I came up with
> three years ago. I will continue with that, once a day as long as I'm
> able.

I must now go into "wet blanket " mode.

IMO, Ben is overly optimistic.

>  Nov. 17 2003 DRA not enlarged @ 65(Family Doctor)

What were Ben's symptoms? In other words, why was the DR*E* (digital
rectal examination) performed? What does the "65" mean? Cubic
centimeters? Other?

>  Nov. 20, 03 PCA 43
>  Feb. 3 2004 PCa 38  (1st Urologist appointment)

This is possible evidence of a serious problem that requires investigation.

>  Feb. 4, 20 04 Bone scan neg.

Meaning very little except that there are no metastases that the scan
could detect.

>  Feb. 26  biopsy Stage T1c Gleason 7 3+4  Right 2 of 3 pos. 50%; left
> 1 of 3 pos. 5 - 10 %

The "T" stage is determined by DRE, not by biopsy.

It appears that Ben had a "sextant" (six-specimen) biopsy. This is known
to be inadequate and was so known in 2004. I call this "third-world
medicine."

>  Mar. 31 start Cipro 7 days +14 +14

Why Cipro? This is used to treat infections.

>  Apr. 8 PCa 40
>  Apr. 19 PCa 31.5
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>  OCt. 11 2006 PCa <.1
>  March 28, 2007 Pca 0.7

Ben's PSA has risen .6 in five months. Red flag! The PCa might be
systemic. If so, no local treatments such as radiation will help.

I recommend that Ben run, not walk, to the nearest MEDICAL oncologist (a
real live cancer specialist), preferably one who is familiar with PCa. A
listing of some PCa specialists will be found on the authoritative
website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute (PCRI) at
http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
Search on Resources, then click on PC Doctors.

A competent med onc should be able to recommend the best means of
addressing the situation.

Ben should also educate himself so that he is prepared to participate in
treatment decisions.

Being empowered could just save his life.

I know that this is not pleasant for Ben to read. Sorry, but I am not
here to hold hands and moo about everything being just fine. If I can
help Ben to preserve his life, I will have accomplished my purpose.

Regards,

Steve J
Ben - 29 Mar 2007 01:58 GMT
> > Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7, one year
> > after the last Zoladex needle. I realize of course that this is not
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> Steve J

@65 meant that I was 65 at the time Cipro was for an infection I had
at the time.
I was threated at the Kingston Regional Cancer Centerc with is
attached tho the General Hospital in kingston which in turn is I think
is a teaching hospital associated with  Queens University Medical
School.
Who are you? What are your qualification to make such comments. Are
you a Doctor?
Ben
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 09:33 GMT
>> I recommend that Ben run, not walk, to the nearest MEDICAL oncologist (a
>> real live cancer specialist), preferably one who is familiar with PCa.

> Who are you? What are your qualification to make such comments. Are
> you a Doctor?
> Ben

None of us are doctors, Ben.  But, going from a succession of PSA readings
of less than 1/10th of a nanogram to 7 10ths of a nanogram is not a hard
concept to grasp.

Your graph would look something like this  ________/

Steve's recommendation re a medical oncologist is sound.

And, no, I'm not a doctor either.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Heather - 29 Mar 2007 18:13 GMT
>> I recommend that Ben run, not walk, to the nearest MEDICAL oncologist
>> (a real live cancer specialist), preferably one who is familiar with
>> PCa.

OK, time for the *resident Canadian female* to jump in here, grin.  Ben
is at one of the finest hospitals in Ontario.  In Kingston, Ontario.  My
Ron is at one of the 2 best in Toronto and it is the Regional Cancer
Care Centre at Sunnybrook & Women's College Hospital.

Perhaps we do it differently up here, or perhaps our terminology is not
the same.  Sunnybrook is also our premiere trauma centre, followed by
three others (closely).  Source?  ME.  I ran the Cdn. International Air
Show and had 3 hospitals on standby in case of a crash.  Sunnybrook was
the first, and also the farthest from the show.  But you can't beat
their trauma unit!!

Also......students fight to get into Queen's University for their
medical education because it is considered the #1 university in Canada
for a medical degree.   I have known that for decades.

So don't be so hard on old Ben, grin.  He is being well looked after by
top doctors.  He has been off HT for a year now.....the same as my
husband.  And it is not entirely surprising that his PSA would go up a
tad.  Ron's did too.

Cheers.....Heather, who is now going to look up Contrarian *whatever
that was*....new one to me.  Also not a doctor, but had them in the
family.  8-))

> @65 meant that I was 65 at the time Cipro was for an infection I had
> at the time.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you a Doctor?
> Ben
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 18:59 GMT
> OK, time for the *resident Canadian female* to jump in here, grin.  Ben is
> at one of the finest hospitals in Ontario.  In Kingston, Ontario.  My Ron
> is at one of the 2 best in Toronto and it is the Regional Cancer Care
> Centre at Sunnybrook & Women's College Hospital.

Don't fret.  If things get serious, you can sneak across the border.

> I ran the Cdn. International Air Show

Canada has planes?

> So don't be so hard on old Ben, grin.

"Old" Ben!?!?!?!  He's only 68.  I know a 75 year old (vicariously) who'd
shoot you for calling a 68-year-old "old".
Heather - 29 Mar 2007 19:44 GMT
Ditz.....see inline!!

>> OK, time for the *resident Canadian female* to jump in here, grin.
>> Ben is at one of the finest hospitals in Ontario.  In Kingston,
>> Ontario.  My Ron is at one of the 2 best in Toronto and it is the
>> Regional Cancer Care Centre at Sunnybrook & Women's College Hospital.
>
> Don't fret.  If things get serious, you can sneak across the border.

Not on your life, sweet cheeks!!  But our Government pays those bills
anyway.....if we should ever have to do that.

>> I ran the Cdn. International Air Show
>
> Canada has planes?

Yeppers.....Even at that time (1982) we had F-18's.  The paint was still
wet, grin.  And we let the Thunderbirds try and keep up with our
Snowbirds.

My favourite pilot was Art Scholl.  He died filming stunts for Top Gun.
Always had his dog Aileron with him.
http://www.check-six.com/lib/Famous_Missing/Scholl.htm

>> So don't be so hard on old Ben, grin.
>
> "Old" Ben!?!?!?!  He's only 68.  I know a 75 year old (vicariously)
> who'd > shoot you for calling a 68-year-old "old".

Ahem......I know a 68 year old female who refuses to be called "OLD"!!
Although there are days.......

XX  Figgs
Ben - 29 Mar 2007 22:26 GMT
> Ditz.....see inline!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> XX  Figgs

Just to clear things up when I wrote Cancer specialist, that should
have been: Radiation Oncologist.MD, MSc, RPCPC.  Associtate Professor,
Department of Oncology Affilations.
Now that's a mouthful.
Ben
Heather - 30 Mar 2007 03:53 GMT
> Just to clear things up when I wrote Cancer specialist, that should
> have been: Radiation Oncologist.MD, MSc, RPCPC.  Associtate Professor,
> Department of Oncology Affilations.
> Now that's a mouthful.
> Ben

Hi Ben.....now I will have to look up Ron's radiation oncologist's
degrees, but he worked at Princess Margaret and is now doing studies,
trials and research with Dr. Gerald Morton at Sunnybrook's Cancer Care
Centre.

His name is Dr. Andrew Loblaw, which I know you will recognize.....yes,
he is the great-grandson of *that Loblaw*.  Brilliant youngish doctor
and at the forefront of all the latest research.

Best....Heather
PS....Love Chez Piggy, but haven't been there since last May.
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 09:27 GMT
> Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7,

Ben,

I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you had 0.1 for more than two
years.  This 0.7 represents a significant spike.

Unless you meant 0.07.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

kh - 29 Mar 2007 13:39 GMT
> > Good check up today at the cancer clinic my Pca was 0.7,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Unless you meant 0.07.

Ben's EBRT radiation was in May 2004.  He's within the 18-36 month,
all bets are off, period for a post-radiation bounce.

He's also 1 year post-hormones, a PSA increase would not be unusual as
his Testosterone level returns to normal.

PSA .7, if it holds long term, "could" be considered a good outcome
for external radiation.

That's about it for the, "Could be OK" reasoning.

EBRT seems like "lite" treatment for his indicators, PSA, Gleason, %of
cores positive.  I think everyone has picked up on that.

On the other hand, at his age, what, 68 years old, if he's beaten it
down to the point that it'll take 10 years to reassert itself, he
might have won the battle and the war.

Especially if the other Quality of Life factors are in his favor.
I'm thinking, run down by a jealous husband as he jumps out the
window, pulling up his pants.

Whatever Ben, good luck to you.

-kh QOL
Ben - 29 Mar 2007 13:46 GMT
> > "Ben" <Kli...@Cogeco.ca> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> -kh QOL

Thanks, finally someone wh agrees with my Doctor. Any site on Prostate
cancer that I had read up on, concurs that all or most men my age have
a PSa reading even if there's NO cancer. So I don't see what all the
fuss is about.
Ben.
Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 18:48 GMT
> Thanks, finally someone wh agrees with my Doctor. Any site on Prostate
> cancer that I had read up on, concurs that all or most men my age have
> a PSa reading even if there's NO cancer. So I don't see what all the
> fuss is about.

Perhaps "fuss" is strong, so far as I am concerned.  Personally, I'm
generally on the optimistic side of things.  I just didn't want you going
into the next six months thinking that you are in the clear.  I think you
should be tested again in three months.

But, if you are comfortable with your doc and the potential bump as opposed
to spike, I'm happy.  No one here voices their opinions just to screw with
your mind.  Well, I did with David S. once, but I converted since then.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Steve Kramer - 29 Mar 2007 18:43 GMT
>> I'd hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you had 0.1 for more than two
>> years.  This 0.7 represents a significant spike.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> -kh QOL

I will give you the points that it "could be" a bounce, testosterone could
be rising, and it might not be bad news.  But, it could also be the first of
three rises and it would be folly to consider not knowing which a "good"
checkup.  This check up was a wake up call.  Maybe nothing, maybe something.
Nothing to panic over, or even anguish over.

And, I don't think it's a bad idea to have a medical oncologist's opinion.
However, now that I re-think things, I don't know that he didn't already
have an oncologist on board.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

kh - 30 Mar 2007 18:53 GMT
...

>  This check up was a wake up call.  Maybe nothing, maybe something.
> Nothing to panic over, or even anguish over.

My GUESS, It probably is a bounce and Ben's "T" (and consequently PSA)
should be rising a year after ADT.   As you say, a tighter series of
inexpensive PSA tests would be reasonable but his priority should be
his Quality of Life.   I think that's the message from his doc.

QOL might be fast women or sexy cars, a Harley Davidson, sipping a
$100 bottle of wine.  Maybe taking his family on a trip to the
Rockies, helping at the foodbank, writing that book on flytieing,
digital photography, whatever it is he enjoys and enhances his Quality
of Life.

QOL is not is obsessing about his odds (which are unknown but better
than mine), or falling into a depressive funk.

I spend an intense 1/2 to 1 hour a day on Prostate Cancer, reading
this list, thinking over what people are saying, checking Google News
for new treatments but the rest of the time, as far as I'm concerned
it doesn't exist.  I got taxes and bills to pay, a job, women to
oogle, food to prepare and eat, housework, yardwork season is
starting, and so on.

-kh QOL is what you make of it.
Steve Kramer - 31 Mar 2007 01:11 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> inexpensive PSA tests would be reasonable but his priority should be
> his Quality of Life.

I can live with that.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75            PSAD 0.19 years
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32                        PSAD .056 years
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 and every 4 months there after
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145       PSAD 1.4 years
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Alan Meyer - 30 Mar 2007 01:00 GMT
Ben,

It seems to me that your latest follow-up could have been far,
far worse than it was.  As the two Steves have said, you're not
yet known to be cancer free.  However I think it is possible that
you are cancer free and also possible that, if you're not, you're
still in reasonably good shape and will die of something other
than prostate cancer.

The first thing to notice is that we don't yet know whether your
PSA is rising, falling, or staying the same.  The rise from .1 to
.7 doesn't tell us because the .1 was due to the Zoladex.  It is
possible that your underlying PSA would have been higher than .7
one year ago, but the Zoladex brought it down.

Secondly, we don't know the cause of your current .7 reading.  It
might be PSA being expressed by aging tumor cells that were
stressed by radiation and, though still alive and expressing PSA,
they are not able to divide and multiply.  It might be due to
prostatitis (yes, radiation patients can have prostatitis and
yes, it does raise the PSA.)  Or it might be due to active
cancer.

Thirdly, if you still have active cancer, it is possible that
it's a local recurrence that could be definitively treated by
HIFU.

Fourthly, if you still have active cancer, and it is metastatic
or otherwise un-amenable to local treatment, it may be slow
growing enough that it can be managed for the rest of your life,
perhaps with intermittent hormone therapy and/or some of the new
drugs.

Finally, it could be an active cancer that will kill you.

I'm not a doctor, but I'm thinking that the odds are in your
favor at this time.

Steve J's suggestion to see a medical oncologist specializing in
PCa is never bad advice, but it seems to me that it is premature
to seek additional medical treatment at this time.  I think
(remember that what I think isn't worth much!) that you need to
have real evidence that you still have cancer before you accept
any further treatment.  Three successive rising PSA's is a
commonly accepted, though not absolutely conclusive, indication
of the presence of cancer after radiation treatment.  You don't
really know for sure that you've even had one rise (because the
Zoladex masked the previous readings.)  So I wouldn't jump into
hormone therapy yet.

You might ask for more frequent PSA tests.  It might be a good
idea to get them every one, two, or three months instead of the 6
month schedule you appear to be on.  I suggest you ask your
doctor about this.  If you still have active cancer you will find
out sooner and have a little more time to plan further treatment.

When my PSA began to bounce around my rad onc gave me monthly
tests until he saw a significant drop.  Then he increased the
interval so that now it's at one year.

Best of luck.

   Alan

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