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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / April 2007

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Reaction to Bisphosphonate?

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Kevin Weller - 28 Mar 2007 19:15 GMT
Has anyone on here had a reaction to a bisphosphonate? My brother had
his first infusion of pamidronate last Wednesday. He's been in a lot of
pain for a couple of weeks which was slowly starting to get a little
better but he's been really bad since then. The Dr. did warn us the
first dose could make things worse for a few days but it would be good
to hear some personal experience.

The normal pain killers he's been taking don't seem to touch the pain
so he's been trying Oramorph but all that seems to do is make him
violently sick which, in turn, makes his back pain much worse. He's
been given anti-sickness drugs (I don't know what they are yet) but he
says they turn him into a zombie. Food is also making him sick and he
hasn't eaten properly for 2-3 weeks. We're now in a situation where he
can't eat, can't/won't take the more effective drugs as they make him
sick or zombie-like (how much of this is physical and how much of it is
psychological after some bad reactions I can't even begin to fathom); I
have never heard him so depressed.

I'm trying to persuade him to let the local hospice take him in for a
few days to see if they can get it under control but he's concerned
(frightened I suspect - I would be) about what they'll do in terms of
drugs as he's desperately trying to retain as much control as he can.

He lives about 50 miles from me and I'm about to head over there. This
is a bastard disease :'-(.

Kevin
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 20:26 GMT
> Has anyone on here had a reaction to a bisphosphonate? My brother had
> his first infusion of pamidronate last Wednesday. He's been in a lot of
> pain for a couple of weeks which was slowly starting to get a little
> better but he's been really bad since then. The Dr. did warn us the
> first dose could make things worse for a few days but it would be good
> to hear some personal experience.

Pamidronate = Aredia®

Like Zometa®, it can cause acute phase response (APR), which involves
flu-like symptoms for a few days. It's interesting to see that the medic
knew about APR, but apparently did not know how to avoid it. And it is
avoidable through use of a low initial dosage infused over a longer
time. Later dosages can them be administered at the usual dosages and
for the usual infusion periods.

Myalgia (muscle pain) is a possible though rare side effect (SE). See
the Aredia® SEs on Rx List at:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/aredia_ad.htm

It seems to me that this requires medical attention.

> I'm trying to persuade him to let the local hospice take him in for a
> few days to see if they can get it under control but he's concerned
> (frightened I suspect - I would be) about what they'll do in terms of
> drugs as he's desperately trying to retain as much control as he can.

I hope not hospice but hospital.

Why suffer because of concern about "what they'll do in terms of drugs?"
He has a known problem for which he refuses to seek treatment because of
what the medics *might* do to relieve it. That's how it looks from here,
and it seems illogical. He can have a consultation, then decide whether
to follow whatever advice he is given. He's still in control.

Good luck.

Regards,

Steve J
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 20:28 GMT
The odd symbol after the drug names is supposed to be a circled R,
meaning registered trademark. Didn't work. sorry.

Steve J
Alan Meyer - 28 Mar 2007 21:18 GMT
> The odd symbol after the drug names is supposed to be a circled R, meaning registered
> trademark. Didn't work. sorry.
>
> Steve J

Steve,

It showed up as a circled R in my Outlook Express newsreader, and
also shows correctly on Google.

I notice that all of your postings appear differently from almost
everyone else's in my newsreader.  It may be that it's because
you are posting all of your messages in Unicode, a 16 bit
character encoding that is then further encoded in an 8 bit
representation called UTF-8.  Most of us are using a simpler 8
bit character set called "iso-8859-1", which is also known as
"Latin-1".

However, I confess that I don't see why that should make a
difference to Outlook Express.  Maybe I've got a configuration
problem.

For those using character sets simpler than Unicode, I think
the common convention for a circled R or circled C (copyright
symbol) is to use parentheses, e.g., (R) or (c).

   Alan
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 21:42 GMT
Quoting me:

>> The odd symbol after the drug names is supposed to be a circled R, meaning registered
>> trademark. Didn't work. sorry.

He replied:

> It showed up as a circled R in my Outlook Express newsreader, and
> also shows correctly on Google.

Well. That's interesting. When I receive my copy of a post, sometimes,
as in this case, what I get is not entirely what I sent.

> I notice that all of your postings appear differently from almost
> everyone else's in my newsreader.  It may be that it's because
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> bit character set called "iso-8859-1", which is also known as
> "Latin-1".

I had my outgoing encoding set for UTF-8, as suggested. I have now reset
both incoming and outgoing defaultgs for what Thunderbird calls "Western
(ISO 8859-1)" and hope to resolve everything. I've had problems with
character coding ever since downloading the last update. Drat.

> However, I confess that I don't see why that should make a
> difference to Outlook Express.  Maybe I've got a configuration
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the common convention for a circled R or circled C (copyright
> symbol) is to use parentheses, e.g., (R) or (c).

Experiment:
Registered TM: ®
Copyright: ©
Trademark: ™
Pound (monetary): £

Now let's see......

Thanks for the insight.

Regards,

Steve J

"Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy."
--Joseph Campbell
Heather - 28 Mar 2007 23:16 GMT
Steve.......you aren't using HTML are you??  That does cause weird
characters when the news groups change it to plain text.....or I should
say, when MY computer changes it.  I don't use HTML code at all.

Just a thought......Heather

> Quoting me:
>
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> "Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy."
> --Joseph Campbell
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 23:55 GMT
> Steve.......you aren't using HTML are you??  That does cause weird
> characters when the news groups change it to plain text.....or I should
> say, when MY computer changes it.  I don't use HTML code at all.

Nope, neither do I.

However: I was using a non-Thunderbird app to insert the symbols into
Thunderbird messages. Looks fine when composing, not so fine after
transmitting. Guess I'd best give up that idea.

Works in other documents, though.

Black dang it, Joseph Campbell was right.

Regards,

Steve J

"Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy."
--Joseph Campbell
Alan Meyer - 29 Mar 2007 00:08 GMT
...
> Steve J
...

This message came through in Latin-1.  It looks like everyone
else's messages in Outlook Express.

   Alan
Kevin Weller - 28 Mar 2007 20:50 GMT
> Like Zometa®, it can cause acute phase response (APR), which involves 
> flu-like symptoms for a few days.

He doesn't have flu-like symptoms, I wish that was all it was.

> Myalgia (muscle pain) is a possible though rare side effect (SE).

Thanks but what he seems to have is acute bone pain. I've read the blurb, I
was hoping someone who'd been down this road would be able to tell me what
their experience was.

> It seems to me that this requires medical attention.

BTDTGTTS. All they can offer so far is increasing his Oramorph which is
making him even more sick.

> I hope not hospice but hospital.

Nope, I meant hospice. It appears that this is outside the experience of
both the hospital and the local GP who has abdicated responsibility to the
hospice. There are experts there who understand palliative care which the
GP confesses he knows nothing about. Our current process is to talk to the
hospice, get one of the specialists to visit if necessary, they then fax a
recommendation to the GP who acts on it. The hospice specialists can't
prescribe anything themselves as my Brother is not an in-patient so
everything has to go through the GP. Yep I know it's bloody mad but that
seems to be the way it works.

What complicates this is that he also has an ulcerated oesophagus which
means the ibuprofen range of drugs is closed to him.

> He has a known problem for which he refuses to seek treatment because of 
> what the medics *might* do to relieve it. That's how it looks from here, 
> and it seems illogical. He can have a consultation, then decide whether 
> to follow whatever advice he is given. He's still in control.

For the hospice specialists to treat him properly he has to become an
in-patient, that's why he fears he may lose control. Given the level of
pain he is in I doubt the logical part of his brain is working that well if
at all - he can hardly move and even his speech is slurred and almost
unintelligible. He has a high pain threshold and he's not just hurting,
he's apparently been writhing on the bed in agony.

I remember when I had a kidney stone, which is nothing compared to this,
and I don't remember being exactly logical when it was kicking off.

[Later] My Mother called just as I was about to leave and apparently one of
the Drs, we suspect from the GP's staff as it certainly wouldn't have been
hospice staff, has told my Brother that once he goes into the hospice he'll
never come out. I'm sure that has helped his state of mind no end.

Kevin
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 21:17 GMT
On March 28, Kevin Weller responded:

>> Like ZometaÆ, it can cause acute phase response (APR), which involves†
>> flu-like symptoms for a few days.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> BTDTGTTS. All they can offer so far is increasing his Oramorph which is
> making him even more sick.

Sorry. I understood that his initial symptoms had declined and that he
was possibly having a new set of symptoms.

Did not realize that bone pain was involved. Does he have metastases to
bone? This can cause extreme pain, which can sometimes be alleviated via
"spot" radiation.

Oramorph is morphine sulfate, and comes with its own set of SEs.

I, too, hope that someone with personal experience will respond.

Is this taking place in the UK or Canada?

> [Later] My Mother called just as I was about to leave and apparently one of
> the Drs, we suspect from the GP's staff as it certainly wouldn't have been
> hospice staff, has told my Brother that once he goes into the hospice he'll
> never come out. I'm sure that has helped his state of mind no end.

Omigod. Whatever happened to "First Do No Harm"?

Regards,

Steve J
Heather - 28 Mar 2007 23:21 GMT
> Is this taking place in the UK or Canada?

In the UK, Steve.  His headers show the time as GMT plus one.

Heather

> On March 28, Kevin Weller responded:
>> Thanks but what he seems to have is acute bone pain. I've read the
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Steve J
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 23:57 GMT
I inquired

>> Is this taking place in the UK or Canada?

She responded

> In the UK, Steve.  His headers show the time as GMT plus one.

Tnx.

That explains a lot.

Regards,

Steve J
I.P. Freely - 29 Mar 2007 00:19 GMT
>>> [Later] My Mother called just as I was about to leave and apparently
>>> one of the Drs, we suspect from the GP's staff as it certainly
>>> wouldn't have been hospice staff, has told my Brother that once he
>>> goes into the hospice he'll never come out. I'm sure that has helped
>>> his state of mind no end.

>> Omigod. Whatever happened to "First Do No Harm"?

Hospice *means* terminal care, and usually implies little remaining
time. Is this indirect communication the only indication he's receiving
from his doctors of a condition that serious?

I.P.
J - 29 Mar 2007 00:25 GMT
> >>> [Later] My Mother called just as I was about to leave and apparently
> >>> one of the Drs, we suspect from the GP's staff as it certainly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I.P.

Oh no, hospice does not mean terminal.
Some people are in hospice for years: not terminal unless you consider
everyone terminal.
And some go in for a while to adjust medications and then come out.
J
I.P. Freely - 29 Mar 2007 01:00 GMT
>>>>> [Later] My Mother called just as I was about to leave and apparently
>>>>> one of the Drs, we suspect from the GP's staff as it certainly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Oh no, hospice does not mean terminal.

Google it, as I did before posting that.

I.P.
Kevin Weller - 29 Mar 2007 01:30 GMT
> Hospice *means* terminal care, and usually implies little remaining 
> time. Is this indirect communication the only indication he's receiving 
> from his doctors of a condition that serious?

We know it's terminal. What you describe is only one use of a hospice.
They are also used (in the UK at least) as places people can go to for
short periods for pain control.

Kevin
Kevin Weller - 29 Mar 2007 01:30 GMT
> Sorry. I understood that his initial symptoms had declined and that he 
> was possibly having a new set of symptoms.

Sorry, I obviously wasn't very clear. His pain seemed to be declining (past
experiences indicates the pain/no pain episodes are cyclic) but came back
with a vengeance.

> Did not realize that bone pain was involved. Does he have metastases to 
> bone? This can cause extreme pain, which can sometimes be alleviated via 
> "spot" radiation.

He has bone mets all over. The one that seems to causing the most problems
is in his lower spice but the one in his head is also painful. We're seeing
the oncologist next Tuesday but last time we saw her she told us it can
take a week to set up a radiotherapy session. Today we tried to
short-circuit this by calling the Macmillan nurse to see if we could set
one up now which would be confirmed by the oncologist on Tuesday but
apparently the specialist "would prefer to see him first". We can't get him
in to see the oncologist earlier as she only comes to the area once a week.
I don't think I have ever been so frustrated as I am now.

> Is this taking place in the UK or Canada?

UK.

Kevin
I.P. Freely - 28 Mar 2007 22:14 GMT
> Has anyone on here had a reaction to a bisphosphonate? My brother had
> his first infusion of pamidronate last Wednesday. He's been in a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> psychological after some bad reactions I can't even begin to fathom); I
> have never heard him so depressed.

Have you Googled it? One prompt hit included this discussion of
biphosphanates for bone pain:
http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=5271 .

Or is some of his pain esophageal? After all, biphosphanates such as
Fosamax are generally precluded if the patient has esophageal problems
such as a hiatal hernia (and I'd bet an ulcerated esophagus qualifies).

The various medical websites list several side effects of
biphosphanates, including esophageal irritation, stomach ache, diarrhea,
jaw bone destruction, muscle and bone discomfort,

From http://www.rxcarecanada.com/Bisphosphonates.asp we see that

Contraindications: All bisphosphonates are contraindicated in patients
with hypersensitivity to any bisphosphonate. Alendronate is
contraindicated in patients with abnormalities of the esophagus that
delay emptying, such as stricture or achalasia, in patients who cannot
stand or sit upright for at least 30 minutes and in patients with
creatinine clearance <0.58 mL/s. Clodronate is contraindicated in
patients with serum creatinine >440 µmol/L or severe inflammation of the
gastrointestinal tract. Etidronate is contraindicated in patients with
clinically overt osteomalacia, until appropriate treatment has been
initiated for it. Risedronate is contraindicated in patients with
hypocalcemia.

Warnings: Bisphosphonates may cause upper gastrointestinal disorders
such as dysphagia, esophagitis, esophageal ulcer and gastric ulcer.
[That's been discussed numerous times in this forum as a contraindicator
of bone restoring meds; I'm surprised his doctors would prescribe it to
a man with ulcerated esophagus, but what do I know?] Esophageal injury
has been more commonly associated with aminobisphosphonates such as
alendronate. There appears to be a higher risk of esophageal injury if
the patient does not remain upright following the dose. It is
recommended that patients take bisphosphonates on an empty stomach with
a full glass of water and remain in an upright position for at least 30
minutes after a dose.

Because bisphosphonates are excreted renally, caution and appropriate
monitoring are advised for patients with renal failure (see
Contraindications).

In the treatment of Paget's disease with etidronate, it can take months
to realize the maximum benefit of therapy. Caution is advised regarding
treatment beyond the recommended duration of therapy, because of the
potential for impaired mineralization of new bone. A drug-free interval
is recommended between courses of treatment for Paget's disease (see
Dosage).

Precautions: Gastrointestinal: To minimize the risk of upper
gastrointestinal irritation or injury, bisphosphonates should be taken
on an empty stomach with a full glass of plain water. They should not be
taken with food, calcium, other medications, or any beverage other than
water. Patients should remain in an upright position (sitting or
standing) for 30 minutes after a dose. Manufacturers' recommendations
vary for the different agents with respect to the time of day and how
long before a meal they should be taken (see Dosage).

Dosing instructions should be clearly explained and reinforced. Patients
should be advised to stop taking the bisphosphonate and consult their
physician if symptoms of esophageal injury develop, such as such as
difficulty swallowing, retrosternal pain or new or worsening heartburn.

Caution is advised for patients with a history of gastrointestinal
disorders, especially delayed esophageal transit time. Alendronate is
contraindicated in patients with delayed esophageal emptying.

Bone Metabolism: Hypocalcemia and other disturbances of bone and mineral
metabolism should be effectively treated prior to bisphosphonate
therapy. Because mild decreases in serum calcium and phosphorus have
been observed with some bisphosphonates, maintaining adequate intake of
calcium and vitamin D is recommended. Calcium interferes with the
absorption of the bisphosphonate and should be taken at a different
time. In the case of cyclic etidronate therapy, calcium and vitamin D
supplements are not recommended during the 14-day etidronate phase (see
Dosage, Table II). For information on recommended intake of calcium and
vitamin D, see the Calcium Salts: Oral and Vitamin D general monographs
in the White pages and Osteoporosis and the Older Adult in the Clin-Info
section.

And so it goes. You'll find scores to hundreds of useful sites by
Googling various key words such as biphosphanate side effects, both
answering and raising many related questions.

I.P.
Steve Jordan - 28 Mar 2007 22:41 GMT
On March 28, Mike Freely wrote:

(snip some to-the-point information, as well as a lot of irrelevancies)

> And so it goes. You'll find scores to hundreds of useful sites by
> Googling various key words such as biphosphanate side effects, both
> answering and raising many related questions.

Mike appears to have missed the class on oral bisphosphonates as opposed
to infused bisphosphonates.

The one that is in use in this case is pamidronate, US trade name
Aredia. It is infused, not taken orally. So  none of Mike's dire
warnings about esophogal and gastro-intestinal SEs are relevant.

Regards,

Steve J
Kevin Weller - 29 Mar 2007 01:30 GMT
> Have you Googled it? One prompt hit included this discussion of 
> biphosphanates for bone pain: 
> http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=5271 .

I've Googled until my eyes hurt but, as I said to Steve, I was wondering
whether there was anyone here who had personal experience.

> Or is some of his pain esophageal? After all, biphosphanates such as 
> Fosamax are generally precluded if the patient has esophageal problems 
> such as a hiatal hernia (and I'd bet an ulcerated esophagus qualifies).

He's not taking the bisphophonate orally.

Kevin
I.P. Freely - 29 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT
>> Or is some of his pain esophageal? After all, biphosphanates such as
>> Fosamax are generally precluded if the patient has esophageal problems
>> such as a hiatal hernia (and I'd bet an ulcerated esophagus qualifies).
>
> He's not taking the bisphophonate orally.

I'd want to ascertain whether the effect is systemic, as I have yet to
see any distinction in the SE discussions among delivery modes.

I.P.
Lud - 30 Mar 2007 16:04 GMT
> Has anyone on here had a reaction to a bisphosphonate? My brother had
> his first infusion of pamidronate last Wednesday. He's been in a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Kevin

Kevin

My experience is with Zometa which is similar to Aredia. I am
surprised that his doctor did not provide countermeasures to minimize
the pain.

With Zometa, the following helps some patients:

1- reducing the normal dosage to half for the first infusion - for
Zometa it is 2 mg instead of 4 mg.

2- extending the time span for the infusion to double or triple the
normal time  - for Zometa it is slowing down the infusion rate to take
60 minutes.

3- Having the patient drink a lot of water before and after the
infusion - and as long as the pain persists.

4- Take adequate calcium and vitamin D daily at supper and at bedtime
- Dr Strum recommends Jarrow's BONE-UP of 3 caps at a time (500 mg
calcium plus )

7- The doctor should run a blood test to check electrolytes especially
potassium as it may also require supplementation.

These are the countermeasures that have helped me but remember each
patient is different so it is important to work with a VERY
knowledgeable and caring doctor.

Best wishes ... Lud

These
Kevin Weller - 30 Mar 2007 20:11 GMT
> Best wishes ... Lud

Thanks very much Lud. I assume these are the steps they followed with
you and you had no/limited problems?

Kevin
Lud - 31 Mar 2007 16:04 GMT
> In article <1175267069.898359.182...@b75g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Lud
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Kevin

Kevin - some of these countermeasures I found out late after my 3
infusions. The reason I stopped was that I had been on Fosamax for 4.5
years and the Zometa started giving me jaw infections which I picked
up quickly and had treated with anti-biotic successfully. After all
the years of bisphosphonates (BPs), I was at high risk for ONJ
(osteonecrosis of the jawbone) - the half life of these drugs is in
years. After 2 years off BP's, my bone markers CTX and BSAP started to
rise, so this time I am trying Strontium citrate under my
endocrinologist's care.

My immediate experience was often from my reading about other patients
experiences - my doctors were to busy (work overload here with
Canada's medicare) to get into the aspect of side effects. I note
below my personal experience on the points I made earlier:

1- reduced initial dosage - NO - but I was also not bisphosphonate
naive after 4.5 years of Fosamax.

2- extending infusion time  - YES partially - 30 to 40 minutes total.

3- Having the patient drink a lot of water - NOT Initially - found out
towards the end - it helped.

4- Take adequate calcium - YES - it was a simple mix of calcium 1000
mg plus 500 mg magnesium. I am now on BONE-UP.

5- Check electrolytes - YES for calcium which was at the very bottom
of the reference range - I added some potassium on my own from my
reading on the last infusion and it seemed to help.

It is very hard to distinguish exactly what helps as the pain may go
away with time and additional Zometa infusions should have less
effects. It is a complex issue with a fairly new class of drugs. The
potential for ONJ is scary as those that are unfortunate to get it
have described it as very painful with no known cure and continuous
anti-biotics.
Kevin Weller - 06 Apr 2007 19:08 GMT
> Kevin - some of these countermeasures I found out late after my 3
> infusions.

Sorry Lud, I just realised I omitted to thank you for that follow-up
post so "Thanks" :).

My Brother is now in the hospice where his pain seems to be under
better control although that may be coincidental. This may be TMI but
he was quite convinced much of his pain and sickness was due to the
constipation the Solpadol causes. He may well have been correct as the
pain level started dropping after the constipation was resolved.

He now has a morphine patch to supplement the Solpadol and the
monitoring has begin to see if they can figure out why he gets a steep
drop-off in pain control from the Solpadol after about 2.5 hours.

The visit to the specialist didn't bring any good news unfortunately.
His PSA is now above 900 - it's not just going up, it's leaping - and
the latest prognosis is a few months unless they can bring it under
control with Taxotere which he'll start next week.

I asked about Zometa as everything I've read says that seems to be the
most effective bisphosphonate and is the only one recommended by the
British Association of Urological Surgeons for use in prostate cancer
patients with bone mets. The oncologist agrees but says none of the
PCTs she works in will fund it as it's so expensive. I guess
Pamidronate is better than no bisphosphonate at all.

Kevin
 
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