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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2007

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Treatment Decision

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CW89134 - 24 Mar 2007 19:28 GMT
This is an update to my husband's diagnosis on February 20, 2007 - PSA
3.5 (actually 3.14 taken two days before the positive biopsy, albeit
at a different lab), overall gleason 3+4 (80% 3's, 20% 4's in the mid;
gleason 3+3 in the base). I'm posting this as I was requested to
provided an update when we had reached a treatment decision.

Over the past month, we have met with a new urologist, a medical
oncologist and three radiation oncologists. One of the radiation
oncologists was at Loma Linda University Medical Center and the other
two were here in town. None of the doctors felt that a bone scan or CT
scan was necessary. The new urologist felt that Paul was not a
candidate for surgery (weight, hypertension etc.). We didn't
particularly care because we weren't considering surgery anyway.

The medical oncologist felt that Paul would do well with IMRT. This
was corroborated by the two radiation oncologists here in town. One of
them has the only tomotherapy (CT guided IMRT) machine in the state.
He felt that would be an appropriate treatment for Paul. The other
local radiation oncologist uses ultrasound guided IMRT.

Our final decision is proton therapy at Loma Linda. We went there for
a consult last week and were very impressed. Paul is a candidate for
"proton only" treatment (They do combined proton/photon treatment in
more advanced cases). He was given a start date of April 2. The local
rad onc's (one of whom did his residency at LL but left after that)
both felt that LL would be a good choice but that THEY could do just
as well with IMRT in its various forms.

The bottom line, as far as we're concerned, is that people from all
over the country (and the world, for that matter), go to Loma Linda
for proton treatment (LL has treated 8,000+ prostate cancer patients
over the course of 16 years). They don't come to Las Vegas. That's it;
on April 1, we're going to LL for a nine week course of proton
treatment.

Because Paul has an artificial right hip, the treatment plan will be
slightly different than the standard. Instead of 44 treatments, he
will receive 42. Instead of lateral right treatments (They normally
alternate left/right, left/right etc.), he will receive 2/3 of the
treatments from the lateral left (non-operated side) and 1/3 of the
treatments from the rear. The plan could have been designed to come
into the right side at a different angle so as to avoid the hip
prosthesis, but the rad onc felt it was simpler to do it as I
described. This puts Paul at a higher risk for rectal bleeding down
the road, but so be it. That risk would probably hold for all forms of
radiation.

Carol
CW89134 - 24 Mar 2007 19:50 GMT
I forgot the state -- t2a or t1c, depending on which doc we spoke to.
CW89134 - 24 Mar 2007 19:52 GMT
> I forgot the state -- t2a or t1c, depending on which doc we spoke to.

That should read "stage" -- not "state".

Sorry!
chasjac - 25 Mar 2007 05:05 GMT
> > I forgot the stage -- t2a or t1c, depending on which doc we spoke to.

Hello, Carol:

Which doc reported which staging?  My PCP staged mine at T1c, but when
I went to Johns Hopkins to meet with the guy who eventually did my
surgery, he staged it at T2a -- he almost wanted to call it T2b; I
guess my tumor was right on the cusp.  Later, when I met with my PCP
again, we agreed that the surgeon's touch was probably more
sensitive.

I hope it all goes well for your husband.  Please keep us posted.

--charlie
CW89134 - 25 Mar 2007 15:15 GMT
> Which doc reported which staging?  

Charlie:

Dr. Bahn (We went there for a color doppler targeted biopsy) called it
t2a as he felt something -- not a hardness but a fuller, firmer
feeling on the right lobe. This feeling was confirmed by one of the
local rad onc's and by the rad onc at Loma Linda. The other local rad
onc felt nothing.

Interestingly, the LL rad onc said that when there is a question about
which stage to assign, they use the LOWER stage. So he called it t1c.
I would have thought it would be the other way around but that's what
he said.

Thanks.

Carol
Alan Meyer - 24 Mar 2007 21:02 GMT
> ...
> Because Paul has an artificial right hip, the treatment plan will be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the road, but so be it. That risk would probably hold for all forms of
> radiation.

Carol,

It is always difficult to talk to doctors.  They speak from a
position of high authority and they hold your future in
their hands.  One often has the feeling that it is important
not to express any lack of confidence in what they say.
And besides, we want desperately to have a doctor we
can trust and know that if we leave one doctor it can be
very difficult to find another one, and with unknown results.

Nevertheless, the paragraph above raises a question about
what the doctor said.  When the doctor said "it was simpler"
to follow the plan described, did he mean that it was somehow
better for Paul, or did he just mean that it was easier for him
and his team?

If you aren't sure of the answer to that question, and aren't
comfortable with it, perhaps you and Paul should just ask
him straight out what he meant.  If it just means a few hours
more work and some extra cost that will potentially save
pain and cost down the road, then ask him to go with the
more complicated procedure.  Tell him that you don't want
Paul to suffer any needless complications and that if there
are any it will just be more cost and bother for everyone
later on.  Putting in the effort up front is better than taking
chances on more trouble down the road.

I know this can be difficult.  He might hem and haw, say
it's complicated, say there's no proof one way or the other,
then change the subject.  But in a very polite way (I can
tell that you are a very polite person) see if you can pin
him down.

Other than that, nothing in what you said raised either of
my eyebrows.

Best of luck.

   Alan
CW89134 - 24 Mar 2007 21:46 GMT
> > The plan could have been designed to come
> > into the right side at a different angle so as to avoid the hip
> > prosthesis, but the rad onc felt it was simpler to do it as I
> > described. This puts Paul at a higher risk for rectal bleeding down
> > the road, but so be it. That risk would probably hold for all forms of
> > radiation.

Alan:

What he said was that he believes in the "KISS" principle -- read as
"Keep it simple stupid"! I have a feeling that he was considering the
complications that could arise if the right hip prosthesis was somehow
inadvertantly comprimised by the proton treatment. In fact, he told us
that his own father had proton treatment at LL 15 years ago for
prostate cancer and that he, too, had (and still has) a right hip
replacement. He did suffer rectal bleeding down the road and needed a
transfusion. Not exactly what I wanted to hear but the man is still
alive and (presumably) well 15 years down the road.

I can only hope that over the past 15 years they've improved their
process to avoid these kinds of complications, to the extent possible.

Thanks for your input.

Carol
Steve Kramer - 24 Mar 2007 22:43 GMT
> This is an update to my husband's diagnosis

Thanks Carol.  We'll be thinking of you April 2.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

CW89134 - 25 Mar 2007 15:10 GMT
> Thanks Carol.  We'll be thinking of you April 2.

Thanks, Steve.
NICK - 27 Mar 2007 06:49 GMT
On Mar 24, 10:28 am, Carol wrote:

> Because Paul has an artificial right hip, the treatment plan will be
> slightly different than the standard. Instead of 44 treatments, he
> will receive 42. Instead of lateral right treatments (They normally
> alternate left/right, left/right etc.), he will receive 2/3 of the
> treatments from the lateral left (non-operated side) and 1/3 of the
> treatments from the rear.

Carol, I hope you'll be able to ask what they would do if a
patient has TWO artificial hips.

> The plan could have been designed to come into the right
> side at a different angle so as to avoid the hip prosthesis,
> but the rad onc felt it was simpler to do it as I described.

Simpler for the doctor or the patient?

Would it involve more work, more sweat, more worries
to use a different angle?

Is he relieving himself of those problems at the expense
of hubby's future rectal bleeding and maybe other
problems?
CW89134 - 27 Mar 2007 18:42 GMT
>  Carol, I hope you'll be able to ask what they would do if a
>  patient has TWO artificial hips.

Nick:

After we initially sent the records to Loma Linda, the intake nurse
called back with several questions, one of which was "Do you have any
metal in your body?". Paul replied that he had one artificial hip and
asked if that would be a problem. Her reply was that two artificial
joints might be a problem but that one would not be a problem. We
called back several times after that and asked the same question. Her
answer was always the same. She was the only person we got to speak to
before the consult and since it wasn't relevant in Paul's case, we
didn't ask the doctor when we met with him for the consult. I would
suggest that, if you're interested, you give them a call at 1-800-
PROTONS.

BTW, one of the local rad oncs with whom we met, said that he was
currently treating a bilateral hip replacement patient with radiation
but he didn't elaborate on exactly what kind of treatment that was.

>  Simpler for the doctor or the patient?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  of hubby's future rectal bleeding and maybe other
>  problems?

I don't know the answers to these questions. However, I suspect that
he did not want to take a chance on comprimising the hip prosthesis.
As part of the treatment process, he requires that patients meet with
him weekly for 15 minutes. We will bring this subject up when we meet
with him next week.

Thanks for your interest.

Carol
 
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