Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2007
Good News....
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Shirley ann - 22 Mar 2007 13:07 GMT Hubby had his visit with his oncologist yesterday morning. He said no more radiation, no HT. for the rest of his life.
He just needs an annual PSA test done, starting next year.
He had the radiation seed implant, low dose (iodine) done on 3/20/07.
God and all of you have helped us to cope in the last 6 months.
Thank you.....shirleyann
Steve Kramer - 22 Mar 2007 13:26 GMT > Hubby had his visit with his oncologist yesterday morning. > He said no more radiation, no HT. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > God and all of you have helped us to cope in the last 6 months. Shirly ann,
I dont know if docs lie like that or if half of us hear what we want. I hope that he explained that the PSAs are very important because they will indicate if he has a recurrence any time within the next 20 years (of course at 96 years, he could probably ride it out then). I hope he also explained that with brachy, some people have a rise in PSA and sometimes this rise is a couple of years after the brachy and when that happens, it often is not a recurrence.
There is no reason to think he will have a recurrence, but none the assume that he will not. Stay vigilant.
I am very happy for your good fortune and hope that you keep in touch.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Norma - 22 Mar 2007 13:54 GMT > > Hubby had his visit with his oncologist yesterday morning. > > He said no more radiation, no HT. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > a couple of years after the brachy and when that happens, it often is not a > recurrence. My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce possibility after his brachytherapy. What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
Norma
Steve Kramer - 22 Mar 2007 14:53 GMT > My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce > possibility > after his brachytherapy. What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? I don't know, Norma. I just don't know a lot about brachy. However, kh does (AKA: tchtic, ckh, and hk). I've got two addys for him, but one is private and I forget which, so I'll await his response if sees this.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT > > My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce > > possibility [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > does (AKA: tchtic, ckh, and hk). I've got two addys for him, but one is > private and I forget which, so I'll await his response if sees this. Thank you.
Norma
Steve Jordan - 22 Mar 2007 19:58 GMT On March 21, Norma replied to Steve K:
> My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce > possibility after his brachytherapy. What causes the PSA to rise, if > not reoccurence? Irritation; prostatitis.
Here's what the Prostate Cancer Research Institute says:
"Another potential side-effect of brachytherapy, indeed all forms of radiation, is called the PSA “bump” phenomenon. The PSA “bump” is a delayed PSA rise occurring after the radiation finishes. Although the exact cause of PSA “bump” is not known with certainty, it is believed to result from irritation of the residual prostate gland by radiation. The “bump” follows a benign clinical course and usually resolves itself within a year. The main danger of the PSA “bump” comes when physicians mistakenly conclude that the rising PSA represents recurrent cancer and decide to start ADT when no cancer is present."
See, http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/localdis/scholz_newlydiagnosed2.html
Strum & Pogliano define it further:
"Approximately 35% of patients experience a temporary rise in PSA .....This PSA "bump" or "bounce" has been defined as an increase of 0.1 ng/mL or greater above the preceding PSA level followed by a subsequent decrease below that level. The average time to PSA "bump" is 18-20 months."
See page 103, _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ 2nd ed., subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide" by medical oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum, MD and PCa warrior Donna Pogliano.
Regards,
Steve J
> Norma Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT > On March 21, Norma replied to Steve K: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > mistakenly conclude that the rising PSA represents recurrent cancer and > decide to start ADT when no cancer is present." Thanks you for the information. He has had no negative side effects early in the game, so we are hoping that none arise.
Norma
> See, http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/localdis/scholz_newlydiagnosed2.html
> Strum & Pogliano define it further: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > Norma NICK - 22 Mar 2007 22:12 GMT > What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? Other organs produce PSA. Women can/do have a very low level, and obviously they don't have a prostate.
ron - 22 Mar 2007 22:33 GMT > > What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? > > Other organs produce PSA. Women can/do have a very low level, and > obviously they don't have a prostate. The other organs produce extremely small amounts. A woman's PSA rarely, if ever, attains a value that is likely to account for a trend that might be mistaken for a post-RT recurrence or "bounce".
Prostatic cells die as a non-linear function of time following RT. As the cells die they release large amounts of PSA into the system. It would not be unreasonable to assume that there is a peak in this plot of cell death vs time (imagine a gaussian-like distribution as one possible example) and that that peak correlates with the PSA "bump" or "bounce." Consistent with such an explanation is the observation that the mean time post-RT to >95% prostate cell atrophy is in the 25-30 month range (but can take as long as 48 months), depending upon which type of RT is used. This is similar to the median (and max) "bounce" timeframe...Best wishes and good health, ron
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT > > > What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > type of RT is used. This is similar to the median (and max) "bounce" > timeframe...Best wishes and good health, ron Thank you so much. So far we have had no negative side effects, but it is good to know what might lie ahead.
Norma
JerryW - 23 Mar 2007 00:14 GMT >> What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? > > Other organs produce PSA. Women can/do have a very low level, and > obviously they don't have a prostate. So, obviously, prostate specific antigen (PSA) is not prostate specific.(???)
 Signature JerryW
Please respond to group; email address is not valid
2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62) 2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe 5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes Fully continent by 9/04 PSA <0.1 since
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT > > What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? > > Other organs produce PSA. Women can/do have a very low level, and > obviously they don't have a prostate. Thanks.
Norma
kh - 22 Mar 2007 23:28 GMT > My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce possibility > after his brachytherapy. What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? > > Norma The info in this thread is exactly what my docs told me. I'll put it simply.
With radiation, there's a 90% chance of success. That also means a 10% chance of failure.
This is very roughly. It might be 93%, 87%, the numbers vary from study to study.
Some factors are known, such as starting Gleason, PSA, type of radiation treatment. Other factors are not. No one knows how they interact but docs with lots of experience can make an educated guess.
As other said, with radiation, there's a 20 perhaps 30% chance of a PSA rise sometime in the 18-48 month timeframe. It seems more pronounced with younger men with larger prostates.
There are reports of rises to PSA 20 and more. Those are unusual but not unheard of. Most guys who have rises, or bumps, see much smaller increases.
3, .7, .5, then a 1.4, .7, .4, .3, spaced at 6 month intervals.
The mechanism, as Ron said, is believed to be the cancer and the normal prostate cells dieing off. When they die, they release PSA.
Since there is a 10% chance of failure, men should have regular PSA's and plot the numbers. Rises after 3 or 4 years suggest that the cancer is still alive and should be treated.
Rises, the shape and height of the curve, before the 3-4 year bound should also be watched and evaluated. The docs might order Prostascint, PET-scans, or Bone scans.
The problem with radiation is that you don't know whether you're in the 90 success group or the 10% failure group for several years.
That's my understanding.
-kh
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT > > My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce possibility > > after his brachytherapy. What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence? [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > -kh Thank you so much.
Norma
Shirley ann - 23 Mar 2007 10:52 GMT Hubby gets PSA's now every 4 months this year.
Starting next year once a year.
He has lost his hair on his legs and arms from the HT. The oncologist said he will be having side effects up to 6 months from it.
shirleyann
kh - 23 Mar 2007 12:58 GMT > Hubby gets PSA's now every 4 months this year. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The oncologist said he will be having side effects up to 6 months from > it. Worst effects faded at +6 months for me. A few things still bother me but they are nuisances, like the jabbing pain in the middle toes of my left foot.
The hair on my head actually filled in for a year. I tell friends that was frustrating because women started looking at me again but my guy-equipment wasn't working yet.
I did get the Lupron-puffy look in my neck and face but I've always been a balloon-head so no one seemed to notice that.
-kh
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