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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2007

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Good News....

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Shirley ann - 22 Mar 2007 13:07 GMT
Hubby had his visit with his oncologist yesterday morning.
He said no more radiation, no HT.
for the rest of his life.

He just needs an annual PSA test done, starting next year.

He had the radiation seed implant, low dose (iodine) done on 3/20/07.

God and all of you have helped us to cope in the last 6 months.

Thank you.....shirleyann
Steve Kramer - 22 Mar 2007 13:26 GMT
> Hubby had his visit with his oncologist yesterday morning.
> He said no more radiation, no HT.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> God and all of you have helped us to cope in the last 6 months.

Shirly ann,

I dont know if docs lie like that or if half of us hear what we want.  I
hope that he explained that the PSAs are very important because they will
indicate if he has a recurrence any time within the next 20 years (of course
at 96 years, he could probably ride it out then).  I hope he also explained
that with brachy, some people have a rise in PSA and sometimes this rise is
a couple of years after the brachy and when that happens, it often is not a
recurrence.

There is no reason to think he will have a recurrence, but none the assume
that he will not.  Stay vigilant.

I am very happy for your good fortune and hope that you keep in touch.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Norma - 22 Mar 2007 13:54 GMT
> > Hubby had his visit with his oncologist yesterday morning.
> > He said no more radiation, no HT.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> a couple of years after the brachy and when that happens, it often is not a
> recurrence.

My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce possibility
after his brachytherapy.  What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?

Norma
Steve Kramer - 22 Mar 2007 14:53 GMT
> My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce
> possibility
> after his brachytherapy.  What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?

I don't know, Norma.  I just don't know a lot about brachy.  However, kh
does (AKA:  tchtic, ckh, and hk).  I've got two addys for him, but one is
private and I forget which, so I'll await his response if sees this.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  <.1  <.1  <.1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04, <0.05
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT
> > My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce
> > possibility
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> does (AKA:  tchtic, ckh, and hk).  I've got two addys for him, but one is
> private and I forget which, so I'll await his response if sees this.

Thank you.

Norma
Steve Jordan - 22 Mar 2007 19:58 GMT
On March 21, Norma replied to Steve K:

> My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce
> possibility after his brachytherapy.  What causes the PSA to rise, if
>  not reoccurence?

Irritation; prostatitis.

Here's what the Prostate Cancer Research Institute says:

"Another potential side-effect of brachytherapy, indeed all forms of
radiation, is called the PSA “bump” phenomenon. The PSA “bump” is a
delayed PSA rise occurring after the radiation finishes. Although the
exact cause of PSA “bump” is not known with certainty, it is believed to
result from irritation of the residual prostate gland by radiation. The
“bump” follows a benign clinical course and usually resolves itself
within a year. The main danger of the PSA “bump” comes when physicians
mistakenly conclude that the rising PSA represents recurrent cancer and
decide to start ADT when no cancer is present."

See,
http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/localdis/scholz_newlydiagnosed2.html

Strum & Pogliano define it further:

"Approximately 35% of patients experience a temporary rise in PSA
.....This PSA "bump" or "bounce" has been defined as an increase of 0.1
ng/mL or greater above the preceding PSA level followed by a subsequent
decrease below that level. The average time to PSA "bump" is 18-20 months."

See page 103,  _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ 2nd ed., subtitled "The
Empowered
Patient's Guide" by medical oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B.
Strum, MD and PCa warrior Donna Pogliano.

Regards,

Steve J

> Norma
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT
> On March 21, Norma replied to Steve K:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> mistakenly conclude that the rising PSA represents recurrent cancer and
> decide to start ADT when no cancer is present."

Thanks you for the information.  He has had no negative side effects early
in the game, so we are hoping that none arise.

Norma

> See,

http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/localdis/scholz_newlydiagnosed2.html

> Strum & Pogliano define it further:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> > Norma
NICK - 22 Mar 2007 22:12 GMT
>   What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?

Other organs produce PSA.   Women can/do have a very low level, and
obviously they don't have a prostate.
ron - 22 Mar 2007 22:33 GMT
> >   What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
>
>  Other organs produce PSA.   Women can/do have a very low level, and
> obviously they don't have a prostate.

The other organs produce extremely small amounts.  A woman's PSA
rarely, if ever, attains a value that is likely to account for a trend
that might be mistaken for a post-RT recurrence or "bounce".

Prostatic cells die as a non-linear function of time following RT.  As
the cells die they release large amounts of PSA into the system.  It
would not be unreasonable to assume that there is a peak in this plot
of cell death vs time (imagine a gaussian-like distribution as one
possible example) and that that peak correlates with the PSA "bump" or
"bounce."  Consistent with such an explanation is the observation that
the mean time post-RT to >95% prostate cell atrophy is in the 25-30
month range (but can take as long as 48 months), depending upon which
type of RT is used.  This is similar to the median (and max) "bounce"
timeframe...Best wishes and good health, ron
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT
> > >   What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> type of RT is used.  This is similar to the median (and max) "bounce"
> timeframe...Best wishes and good health, ron

Thank you so much.  So far we have had no negative side effects, but it is
good to know what might lie ahead.

Norma
JerryW - 23 Mar 2007 00:14 GMT
>>   What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
>
> Other organs produce PSA.   Women can/do have a very low level, and
> obviously they don't have a prostate.

So, obviously, prostate specific antigen (PSA) is not prostate
specific.(???)

Signature

JerryW

Please respond to group; email address is not valid

2/11/04 PSA 2.6, Suspicious DRE (age 62)
2/23/04 Biopsy: Gleason 3+4=7, T2a, left lobe
5/18/04 RRP, Path: Gleason 4+3=7, T2c, both lobes
Fully continent by 9/04
PSA <0.1 since

Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT
> >   What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
>
>  Other organs produce PSA.   Women can/do have a very low level, and
> obviously they don't have a prostate.

Thanks.

Norma
kh - 22 Mar 2007 23:28 GMT
> My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce possibility
> after his brachytherapy.  What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
>
> Norma

The info in this thread is exactly what my docs told me.  I'll put it
simply.

With radiation, there's a 90% chance of success.  That also means a
10% chance of failure.

This is very roughly. It might be 93%, 87%, the numbers vary from
study to study.

Some factors are known, such as starting Gleason, PSA, type of
radiation treatment.  Other factors are not.  No one knows how they
interact but docs with lots of experience can make an educated guess.

As other said, with radiation, there's a 20 perhaps 30% chance of a
PSA rise sometime in the 18-48 month timeframe.  It seems more
pronounced with younger men with larger prostates.

There are reports of rises to PSA 20 and more. Those are unusual but
not unheard of.   Most guys who have rises, or bumps, see much smaller
increases.

3, .7, .5, then a 1.4, .7, .4, .3, spaced at 6 month intervals.

The mechanism, as Ron said, is believed to be the cancer and the
normal prostate cells dieing off. When they die, they release PSA.

Since there is a 10% chance of failure,  men should have regular PSA's
and plot the numbers.  Rises after 3 or 4 years suggest that the
cancer is still alive and should be treated.

Rises, the shape and height of the curve, before the 3-4 year bound
should also be watched and evaluated.  The docs might order
Prostascint, PET-scans, or Bone scans.

The problem with radiation is that you don't know whether you're in
the 90 success group or the 10% failure group for several years.

That's my understanding.

-kh
Norma - 23 Mar 2007 04:30 GMT
> > My husband and I didn' t hear about the rise with no reoccurnce possibility
> > after his brachytherapy.  What causes the PSA to rise, if not reoccurence?
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> -kh

Thank you so much.

Norma
Shirley ann - 23 Mar 2007 10:52 GMT
Hubby gets PSA's now every 4 months this year.

Starting next year once a year.

He has lost his hair on his legs and arms from the HT.
The oncologist said he will be having side effects up to 6 months from
it.

shirleyann
kh - 23 Mar 2007 12:58 GMT
> Hubby gets PSA's now every 4 months this year.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The oncologist said he will be having side effects up to 6 months from
> it.

Worst effects faded at +6 months for me.  A few things still bother me
but they are nuisances, like the jabbing pain in the middle toes of my
left foot.

The hair on my head actually filled in for a year.   I tell friends
that was frustrating because women started looking at me again but my
guy-equipment wasn't working yet.

I did get the Lupron-puffy look in my neck and face but I've always
been a balloon-head so no one seemed to notice that.

-kh
 
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