Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2007
Newbie, facing IMRT
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Front Office - 12 Mar 2007 11:54 GMT Hi guys,
IMRT is pending in my future -- pending in that I have to make a decision about whether or not to face having 2-Mev gamma-ray photons blasted through my pelvic region, offering collateral damage to my bladder and rectum, and hip joints, too, for that matter.
My prostate was excised from me in February of 2001. I was 59. My highest pre-surgery PSA was 38, and I had a post-surgery Gleason of 8. The urologist said there was a positive margin at the apex, the part of the affected organ that abuts the urinary sphincter.
Post-surgery, my PSA was undetectable for the more than two years. I have been lucky, I think -- and yet I have wasted my time in fretting and worrying about things like a painful death.
Two or three years ago, my PSA became detectable. (I can't say exactly when because I mostly cannot face this whole issue; I effectively ignore it.)
Now, six years after the surgery, in January of this year, the urologist measured my PSA at 0.14. (I keep meaning to ask him about the uncertainty of his machine's measurements. Does anyone know about that? I also wonder about the factors that affect one's blood concentration of PSA. I have lots of questions -- and lots of ambivalence about really wanting to know . . . yet I am curious.)
The urologist suggested in January that I talk to a radiologist, one whom he recommended to me. (I have not kept up with developments in radiation 'therapy.' The new IMRT machines seem hi-tech in their presentation, but their operation is the same old crude bludgeon sort of thing, laying, as they do, intense energy into whole regions of one's body in order to kill localized targets. Carpet bombing.)
I got paralyzed with depression for a month or so after the urologist urged me toward the radiologist. But then I got some pills that seem to help with my attitude, enough so that finally I made an appointment with and met the radiologist who told me and my partner in this life how his machine works. I see that radiation 'therapy' has changed a lot since 1999 when my aged mother suffered the withering effects of X-rays aimed into her lung. She died not a wit improved. The radiation was pointless and silly. (Nonetheless, she did face the situation heroically.)
My 6-year post-surgery PSA is 0.14. I am 65. Should I risk the possible down-side effects of this clever IMRT machine? I have been wanting to ask the urologist, who has done about a thousand of these jobs, how long I might last if I do nothing, and how the outcome might unfold. I am pretty depressed, despite the pills.
Thanks for any comments,
Bob
Claude - 12 Mar 2007 17:09 GMT Hi Bob,
In May of 2002, at age 64 I had an RP. Some cancer cells were found in tissue outside of the prostate, my post-surgery Gleason was 3+4. I expected the worst. However, my PSA's have remained undetectable up till now. I have normal erectile function for my age and no real incontinence (though I can't wait too long when I get the urge). In another month I get my next 6-month PSA test, and I know things might be different. What would *I* do if the PSA becomes detectable. Right now, I think I would just sit back and watch it for a while to see how fast it goes up. My thinking is that if it has not shown up by now, it's either gone or not very aggressive. Personally, I have ruled out salvage radiation. I already have minor rectal problems. The radiation would probably make them worse. I don't think I would like to live very long if I ended up having bowel-incontinence. Also, erectile function and perhaps urinary continence would be again threatened. So, I would watch it. If it rises very slowly, I will consider myself having a chronic condition, and figure I'll die of something else. Eventually, I might consider hormones, but as a last resort---if the PSA goes up faster than I would accept, or when it reaches a certain point (I dont know what that would be at this time---it would depend upon my age then and the acceleration).
That is *my* thinking now. It is not being urged on you. You are 4 years younger and do not have rectal problems to begin with.
It seems as if yours is a very slow-growing cancer. You remained undetectable for 2 years, and then in the next 4 years it only went up to 0.14. To get a good picture, you show know the last few PSA counts to see what the acceleration now is. Many urologists don't feel further treatment is warranted until the recurrent PSA reaches 0.2.
That's just my personal input. Your decision is, of course, your own. I hope you can get clarity on this.
Claude
> Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Bob Front Office - 13 Mar 2007 11:32 GMT > Hi Bob, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Personally, I have ruled out salvage radiation. I already have minor rectal > problems. The radiation would probably make them worse. Yeah, rectal problems. I have some of those too. More to worry about. Nice to know I'm not alone in this regard.
> I don't think I > would like to live very long if I ended up having bowel-incontinence. Also, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > That is *my* thinking now. It is not being urged on you. You are 4 > years younger and do not have rectal problems to begin with. No, I'm a year older. I was 59 in 2001 when the operation was done.
> It seems as if yours is a very slow-growing cancer. You remained > undetectable for 2 years, and then in the next 4 years it only went up to > 0.14. To get a good picture, you show know the last few PSA counts to see > what the acceleration now is. Many urologists don't feel further treatment > is warranted until the recurrent PSA reaches 0.2. Yeah, that seems to be the "action number."
> That's just my personal input. Your decision is, of course, your own. > I hope you can get clarity on this. Thanks for your input, Claude,
Bob
Claude - 13 Mar 2007 17:09 GMT >> Hi Bob, >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > More to worry about. Nice to know I'm not alone > in this regard. If the rectal difficulties are just hemorrhoids, that shouldn't be a problem. But if they are something more, that should be carefully looked into before undergoing radiation. Mine is a mild form of proctitis which the rectal doc cannot explain. One of the negative side-effects of this kind of radiation is a kind of proctitis. I only see the salvage treatment making it worse, perhaps leading to loss of control.
Front Office - 14 Mar 2007 11:22 GMT >>>Hi Bob, >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > kind of radiation is a kind of proctitis. I only see the salvage treatment > making it worse, perhaps leading to loss of control. That term 'proctitis' might apply to my chronic situation, which started more than 40 years ago when I rode a motorcycle across Mexico while I had dysentery. (About 60 percent of each day I feel like I have to do a bowel movement when nothing is in line to come out. Otherwise, I have no problem at all with bowel control. Just chronic discomfort.)
So, I might be used to proctitis. Maybe it will get only a little worse if I decide to go with the SRT.
Bob
c palmer - 12 Mar 2007 18:00 GMT hi bob - sorry to hear about the recurrence.
have you consider a possibility of having photon beam radiation? the other types of radiations pass through the body - hence the collateral damage, whereas, the photon beam can be adjusted to control the depth of penetration of the beam's energy and that is what you want to kill it - to drop all of it's energy and less damage. check out BOB or let me know and i'll post the address for it.
so here's the cards..... placed on the table in front of you. you've got one shot left to kill the prostate cancer. that is why they are going to radiate the prostate bed with a wide beam radiation in hopes of getting everything before it can get into the lymph nodes. it's just the matter in which you want the radiation delivered.
the other point to consider here. this may NOT prostate cancer, but a piece of BPH tissue that was left behind.
why? because of your slow psa rise, having a gleason of 8 would have shot up the psa reading a lot faster, whereas BPH tissue is slow growing.
but there is really no way of knowing at this point.
either way, radiation is going to be needed to kill the tissue and stop the growth.
the radiation machines have improved over the years and they make every effort to pin point the radiation on where it is suppose to go.
i can understand the depression issue having going through it myself.
as to your question about how long will you last if you do nothing......
ok, it's fairly simple. it normally takes 8 years from the pca to develop and escape the prostate capsule. then, 5 years to mest. in the body and end in death for a total of 13 years. this is quote " the average time" there are a ton of variables left out. different gleason score would affect this time line for example.
so, since you have no prostate, you got rid of those 8 years. if the pca spreads and sets up shop, it's just a matter of time from there.
i guess the question you should be asking yourself is this.......... do i want to take NO action and know for sure that i got a good chance of dying because of complications from pca, or since i have a chance for survival and a second chance to be cured, should i take it?
i just hope the depression doesn't interfere with your judgement call.
all the best,
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Alan Meyer - 12 Mar 2007 22:13 GMT Bob,
I'm not a doctor and am not qualified to give advice on prostate cancer, but maybe I can offer a few ideas.
...
> have you consider a possibility of having photon beam > radiation? the other types of radiations pass through the > body - hence the collateral damage, whereas, the photon beam > can be adjusted to control the depth of penetration of the > beam's energy and that is what you want to kill it - to drop > all of it's energy and less damage. I think Curtis meant to say "proton beam", not "photon beam".
Being relatively massive particles, and traveling at far less than the speed of light, protons can be used in such a way as to penetrate through half of the body and stop in the prostate region, rather than going all the way through as with x-rays (photons).
However I have no idea of the relative merits of each approach.
> ... > the other point to consider here. this may NOT prostate [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but there is really no way of knowing at this point. > ... This is an interesting theory. At least one poster on this newsgroup reported that later studies showed that his surgeon left about 1/3 of his prostate in the body after surgery. In the same vein, a radiation oncologist (possibly biased by his profession) told me that all surgeons _think_ they've gotten all the prostate tissue, but they can't know for sure.
In any case, it seems to me at least possible that Curtis' speculation is right and you don't actually have cancer. But I don't know the probability of that.
> either way, radiation is going to be needed to kill the tissue > and stop the growth. Maybe not for BPH. That's not a life threatening condition and I think it can be allowed to continue without treatment.
Bob, at this point, you don't know for certain that you really have cancer. Most doctors won't consider a PSA of less then 0.2 to be solid evidence of cancer after surgery. You're still below that. And if it is cancer, it's clearly very slow growing.
But, judging from your posting, it sounds like your main problem at this time is not cancer, but depression. In many ways, anxiety, panic and depression are even bigger enemies than cancer. Cancer can kill you after some years of development. Anxiety, panic and depression can turn the years you have into a sort of living death.
Getting pills for this was an excellent idea. I hope they help. You should also consider counseling.
As Curtis says in his posting signature, "growing old is mandatory". It happens to every one of us - if we're lucky! All of us who are lucky enough to live long will face the disabilities and difficulties of old age. Lucky or not, all of us will face death. It's what happens. It's part of life.
Some people are able to face those issues with courage, fortitude and optimism. They believe that they can make something of the time left to them. They believe that they can do some good and leave some good behind for the ones they love. They believe that the good times left to them are indeed good times - to be enjoyed and savored just as much as the good times of our youth.
You can become one of those people. It isn't a simple thing to do. You can't just turn off the anxiety and turn on the optimism. It's a battle that you fight one day, and one night, at a time. But if you fight that battle, if you decide that you can and will fight and not quit, maybe if you get some counseling to help you with it, it will be a battle that you win more and more often.
You have years ahead of you. Live them to the fullest.
Good luck.
Alan
c palmer - 12 Mar 2007 23:22 GMT From: ameyer2@yahoo.com (Alan Meyer) I think Curtis meant to say "proton beam", not "photon beam".
==> thanks for pointing that out alan. yeah, it's proton beam. that's what happens when you are thinking one thing and do another.
maybe i should go to work for the gov't. after all, isn't the only difference between billion and million is just one letter difference?
;P
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
chasjac - 13 Mar 2007 01:29 GMT > From: amey...@yahoo.com (Alan Meyer) > I think Curtis meant to say "proton beam", not "photon beam". > > ==> thanks for pointing that out alan. yeah, it's proton beam. That's odd. I thought it was a mistake, too, when I read it earlier today at the office, so I did a search and found a "photon beam" therapy exists. It is defined at the NCI site. It sounds as though the idea is the same as for the other radiation therapies (including proton beam): accelerate particles to high speeds and hit you with them.
There are also a couple of articles out there about it's potential for use in treating prostate cancer.
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0031-9155/50/5/015
This article seems to be concerned with using probabilistic methods to plan the treatment maps.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13739144
The title of this one is "Conformal photon-beam radiotherapy of prostate carcinoma." I could not get more than the abstract.
Searching at PCRI for "photon beam" produces about 10 hits.
--charlie
ron - 13 Mar 2007 02:52 GMT > > From: amey...@yahoo.com (Alan Meyer) > > I think Curtis meant to say "proton beam", not "photon beam". [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > --charlie Hi Charlie..."Photon" is the other type of external beam therapy. Photon has been around for a long time and is what is commonly used in beam radiation treatment; "photon" is another name for x-rays. In fact many / most "proton" treatments are actually a mix of protons and photons...Best wishes and good health, ron
apercu2@msn.com - 20 Mar 2007 01:19 GMT > > > From: amey...@yahoo.com (Alan Meyer) > > > I think Curtis meant to say "proton beam", not "photon beam". [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - (well this isn't quite the one you quoted? Anyway the long and short of it is that it looks like more Grays (Gys) you get, the longer you can be cancer free after?)
Lets see if I can steal you that article for you?:::::::: snap::::
External Radiotherapy and Prostate Cancer
Pauline Gastelblum, , Martine Roelandts and Paul Van Houtte
Department of Radiation Oncology, Institut Jules Bordet, Brussels, Belgium
Available online 28 February 2006.
Conclusions External radiotherapy is very effective to treat localized PCa and even more locally advanced disease, especially using a conformal 3-D approach. But further improvements have still to be made for a more individualized approach.
-----------------
External radiotherapy has been used for more than 5 decades to treat with curative intent prostate cancer. During the last decades, major technical improvements have allowed an increase in the doses delivered to the tumour, thus improving the outcome while reducing the radiation- induced late effects. Several questions including how to select for each individual patient the optimal treatment and the best radiation approach still are not solved.
The management of early prostate cancer remains a controversial issue between tenants of a wait-and-see policy, hormonal manipulation or the different local treatments including cryotherapy, hifu, prostatectomy, brachytherapy or external radiotherapy. There are several ways to evaluate the treatment efficacy, but the ultimate endpoint should still be overall survival or disease-free survival. Therefore, a long observation period is necessary. Toxicity is another endpoint and is easier in that it requires probably a shorter period of observation (a few years). There are no large-scale randomised trials comparing the different treatments, so we must look to the experience of each modality, taking into account all the bias of possible patient selection: Patients treated with external radiotherapy usually are older or with more co-morbidity than those selected for a prostatectomy. Nevertheless, we are evaluating our results nowadays on the basis of treatments performed 10 or 15 years ago. Furthermore, during this period, a lot of changes have occurred, either in terms of the diagnostic procedure (e.g., prostate specific antigen [PSA], magnetic resonance, positron emission tomography eras), the treatment modality and the method of reporting results (the definition of local control, freedom from PSA failure or toxicity).
External radiotherapy offers a series of theoretical advantages: There is no major limitation to the tumour extent or to the patient co- morbidity. The drawbacks mainly are due to the treatment duration (from 6 to 8 weeks), the irradiation of normal organs such as the bladder or the rectum, a less accurate staging compared with surgery and a few contraindications related to the treatment delivery: The patient must be able to lie down on a table without exceeding the table tolerance (usually around 150 kilos) or have a computed tomography (CT) scan (those are uncommon situations).
External radiotherapy has been used for more than 5 decades to treat prostate cancer, even before the PSA era and modern technology. What have we learned from those studies conducted mainly in North America? First, in term of efficacy, using conventional irradiation for local control became increasingly poor as the stage or Gleason score increased. In the historical experience of Bagshaw et al. [1], the 10- and 15-year survival rates were 58% and 36%, respectively, for stage B (intracapsular tumour), and 36% and 22%, respectively, for stage C lesions (extracapsular extension) in a series of 841 patients treated before the PSA and CT era. In a more recent series, Hanks et al. [2] reported that for 120 patients treated with 70 Gy and followed for 12 years, the biochemical control rate was only 58% for T3 disease, compared with 72% for T1 lesions.
In radiation oncology, there is a direct relation between the dose and the probability of local control. Several series have suggested a higher control rate with an increasing radiation dose: In Hanks et al's [3] experience, the 5-year biological-free survival was 31% for doses below 70 Gy and 81% for doses above 72 Gy for patients with a PSA between 10 and less than 20. Zelefsky et al. [4] observed in their series that this benefit was mainly for patients in the intermediate and unfavourable risk group (for the intermediate group, the 4-year, PSA relapse-free survival rate reached 79% after the higher radiation dose). Several randomised trials [5], [6], [7] and [8] have addressed this question: They have demonstrated clearly a benefit from higher total doses, but the results may be more important for some subgroups such as the intermediate risk group (Table 1). Furthermore, several trials conducted by the MRC, the Radiation Therapy Oncology Group (RTOG), the NKI or the FNCLCC in France are now completed, and data for an additional 2000 patients will be available to see the role of radiation dose and modern radiation technique.
Table 1.
Results of randomised trials of dose escalation Authors -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. of patients -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eligible patients -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hormonal treatment -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- RT dose -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Results -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Comments --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pollack [11] 305 T1-T3 None 70 Gy 64% 6-yr biochemical-free survival 78 Gy 70% Dearnaley [6] 126 T1b-T3bN0 3 months neoadjuvant 64 Gy 59% 5-yr biochemical-free survival 74 Gy 71% Lukka [7] 936 T1-T2 None 66 Gy/33 fr 47% 5-yr biochemical- and clinical-free survival 52.5 Gy/20 fr 40% Zietman [8] 393 T1b-T2b None 70.2 Gy* 61% 5-yr biochemical-free survival PSA <15 79.2 Gy* 80%
PSA = prostate specific antigen; RT = radiotherapy. * Treatment was performed by photon and proton beams.
A major concern is certainly the risk of late toxicity, which may have a detrimental effect on the patient's quality of life. The risk of radiation-induced late effects is not only related to the dose and volume but also to the technique used [9]. Over the last years, radiation technology has made major improvements in the different steps of the treatment: the imaging, the treatment planning and the treatment delivery. We have been moving from the two-dimensional (2-D) approach to the conventional 3-D approach, to the conformal 3-D approach (3-D CRT), to intensity modulated radiotherapy (IMRT) and finally to the 4-D approach. This technical evolution allows moving from a dose of 70 Gy or less to a dose in excess of 70 Gy, with the ultimate goal of increasing the local control while decreasing the risk of acute and late complications.
In the old RTOG protocol conducted during the 1970s, the treatment planning was based on orthogonal X rays and contour: Severe late effects including bowel obstruction or proctitis requiring major surgery (grade 4 complications) were reported [10]. The introduction of CT, modern 3-D treatment planning and the conformal approach shaping the beams by blocks or through a multileaf collimator allow an increase in the dose to the tumour while reducing the dose to the bladder and the rectum: For example, in the M.D. Anderson trial, a dose of 70 Gy was delivered with a conventional technique, while a conformal approach delivered 78 Gy; the volume of the bladder receiving a dose of 60 Gy was reduced from 37% to 28%, and similar figures were reported for the rectum [11]. Furthermore, Dearnaley et al. [12] conducted a randomised trial comparing a conventional to a conformal technique for delivering a dose of 64 Gy: The rate of grade 2 gastrointestinal toxicity (bleeding and proctitis treated with simple medication) decreased from 15% to 5%. Grade 3 toxicity (a complication requiring some minor surgery) is now a rare event in most modern series (Table 2) [4], [5], [6] and [8].
Table 2.
Radiation-induced gastrointestinal and genitourinary late effects Authors -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gastro -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Intestinal -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Genito -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Urinary --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pollack [5] Classical RT 70 Gy 16 1 11 2 Conformal RT 78 Gy 28 10 15 4
Dearnaley [12] Conformal RT 64 Gy 11 0 8 3 Conformal RT 74 Gy 18 3 13 5
Zelefsky [4] IMRT 80 Gy 1.5 0.5 9.5 0.5
Zietman [8] Photons+protons 70 Gy 15 1 18 2 79 Gy 17 1 20 1
IMRT = intensity modulated radiotherapy; RT = radiotherapy.
In 3-D conformal radiotherapy, margins are added around the clinical target volume to take into account movement of the tumour (in the present case, the prostate), patient movement or the problem of patient repositioning during the 7 weeks and uncertainties in the clinical target volume delineation process. Several studies have demonstrated clearly that, during the course of a radiation treatment, the prostate moved, particularly in the anterior-posterior direction, because of variation in bladder or rectal filling. Increasing the margins from 1 to 1.5 cm increased the risk of late effects: In Dearnaley et al's [6] randomised trial, 5% of the patients treated with 1.5-cm margins experienced grade 3 gastrointestinal toxicity, but none with a 1-cm margin did so. There are several approaches to reducing the margins, especially at the level of the rectum: IMRT or image guided radiotherapy (IGRT). IMRT is a 3-D CRT in which the amount of photons delivered within a field is modulated; this approach allows treatment of concave forms or modulation of the dose within the target volume. This concave shape allows protection of the rectal wall. The aims of IGRT are to improve the reproducibility of the radiation delivery and to verify daily the position of the prostate, allowing reduction of the margins and thus a decrease in the toxicity. Different techniques are available and are under investigation: fiducial markers implanted in the prostate, daily echography, CT inside the radiation facility either as a separate machine or part of the linear accelerator or cone beam added on the gantry.
Nowadays, the clinical target volume is defined mainly by using an algorithm evaluating the risk of tumour extension on the basis of different prognostic factors (the PSA value, the Gleason score, the clinical tumour extension). A better imaging procedure allowing assessment of the tumour inside the prostate or its possible extension will be another step forward in optimising the radiation delivery [13].
Heavy ions are another interesting approach: Protons or heavy ions offer a significant advantage in dose distribution, compared with photon beams. They have a preferential deposition of energy near the end of their path through the tissue. So, by a specific selection of their energy, the so-called Bragg peak may correspond to the target volume with a steep gradient of the dose protecting the surrounding tissue. Furthermore, heavy ions such as carbon ions also have biological advantages, compared with proton beams. At present, this approach is certainly an experimental approach, and the experience is very limited: At Chiba, 201 patients were treated from June 1995 to February 2004 [14]. The stage varied from T2a to T3, and 94 patients had a PSA above 20. The 5-year, biological-free survival rate was 83.2%. Two patients experienced a grade 2 gastrointestinal toxicity, and 12, a grade 2 genitourinary toxicity.
Several randomized trials [15] and [16] have shown that adjuvant androgen deprivation improved the results after a radical radiotherapy, particularly for locally advanced prostate cancer. There are many unsolved questions including the duration of the treatment and the selection of patients: For patients in the intermediate risk group, combining a hormonal manipulation with radiation may avoid the issue of escalating the total dose, thus decreasing the risk of radiation-induced toxicity.
There are many questions about the radiation technique including the optimal clinical target volume for each individual patient and the possible benefit of a hypofractionated radiation schedule [17]. Indeed, there are some suggestions that the alpha/beta ratio for a prostate cancer is quite low (<2 Gy), while this value for proctitis may be relatively higher. This difference will confer some therapeutic advantage in using fewer fractions with doses higher than 2 Gy for each fraction. Current trials are ongoing to answer this question. If those trials show an advantage or even similar results for the shorter fractionation schedule, this approach would be more convenient for the patients.
In conclusion, external radiotherapy is a very effective treatment modality for treatment of prostate cancer, and major technical advances have been observed during the last few years. However, there are still a lot of questions concerning selection of the best treatment for each patient: the more adapted radiation treatment modality based on the different prognostic factors but also on the patient's request and needs. ....................
well, again, the graphs didn't steal well at all, they line up under each other in the journal; but it seems a good idea to me? So now I'm wondering why my people say I ought not to get it? I guess I'm too far gone. Maybe they are trying to kill me off or something? You think? Certainly, the surgeons and the radiation oncologists and the medical oncologists and the urologists totally disagree about if I should have this or not---actually, the only one in favor being the radiation oncologist. My intuition is that I shouldn't bother with it, that I should just stick with the hormones and the Ramones :~) but what do i know?
rosbif - 20 Mar 2007 09:52 GMT >well, again, the graphs didn't steal well at all, they line up under >each other in the journal; but it seems a good idea to me? So now I'm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >should just stick with the hormones and the Ramones :~) but what do i >know? Interesting post. It looks as though while the technology for targeting is and has been improving for some time, this hasn't been matched by an equivalent progress in the development of tools to define the whole target - i.e. up to and including the peripheral cancerous or pre-cancerous tissue that remains unidentifiable. Can these studies say with any conviction that the success of RT - if it were defined purely in terms of its holding back biochemical recurrence and ignoring collateral damage - doesn't owe some credit to its LACK of accuracy, it's fuzziness at the edges excising more or less effectively, but unknowingly, the 'invisible' problem? The figures suggest that RT has advanced, but maybe greater precision will prove to be counter-productive, and one should invite the risk of *some* collateral damage to optimise the chance of PCa cure? (I think at least one other poster here has voiced similar concerns - can't remember who).
kh - 20 Mar 2007 11:23 GMT > Can > these studies say with any conviction that the success of RT - if it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > prove to be counter-productive, and one should invite the risk of > *some* collateral damage to optimise the chance of PCa cure? The problem is at the edges, maybe. There's also the thought that the prostate is shedding cancer all the time and conditions aren't "right" for mets, that is, until they are.
My doc even raised the possibility that a biopsy (I had two) "releases" cancer cells. He said that there is no evidence that this happens but admitted that statistics "suggest" that this happens.
This is all in the "nobody knows" zone.
I wonder why there isn't a full court press surgical approach. Do a radical, then apply a half year of Lupron, and hit the bed with EBRT, just in case.
-kh
rosbif - 21 Mar 2007 09:06 GMT (..perhaps it was you, kh, who mooted the possible benefits of fuzzy RT targeting.)
>The problem is at the edges, maybe. There's also the thought that >the prostate is shedding cancer all the time and conditions aren't >"right" for mets, that is, until they are. > >My doc even raised the possibility that a biopsy (I had two) >"releases" cancer cells. That occurred to me but I got a good ticking off from I.P. (bless him) when I expressed concern about it here (3 biopsies, 26 cores in total).
> He said that there is no evidence that this >happens but admitted that statistics "suggest" that this happens. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >radical, then apply a half year of Lupron, and hit the bed with EBRT, >just in case. Hard to see how that wouldn't improve prognoses but with the risk of an avalanche of SEs and QOL issues I think most would shrink from this preferring most often to treat ad hoc. It'll be difficult to amass an adequate body of statistical evidence of benefit.
>-kh Lud - 21 Mar 2007 05:05 GMT For prostate cancer, the only meaningful results is disease free in 10 to 15 years after treatment. PCa is notorious for recurring. Even Walsh's cherry-picked patients for curable disease are getting recurrence 10 to 15 years out.
Do check the studies, the only good long term results are for RP by a great surgeon and combined Brachy-EBRT by a true artist. Simple EBRT, not matter how well targeted has a much higher recurrence. Dr Sodee does a lot of scans for recurrence and he claims that EBRT has a 50% failure.
c palmer - 13 Mar 2007 10:40 GMT "c palmer" <PALMER_ENT@webtv.net> wrote in message .. have you consider a possibility of having photon beam radiation? the other types of radiations pass through the body -
hence the collateral damage, whereas, the photon beam can be adjusted to control the depth of penetration of the beam's energy and that is what you want to kill it - to drop all of it's energy and less damage.
=====> after reading what i wrote, i guess i should add some more so that all of this makes more sense.
on the typical radiation, they use the electron. this is the smallest particle of the atom. they pass through the body without doing little to no damage at all. we are constantly being hit with them in life. some by nature, others by radio waves for example.
in simple terms, it must take a bunch of them to pass through the body in an organized fashion to do the damage needed to kill the cancer. but when they are focus in this fashion, they also pass through other organs or tissue which may damage it.
the proton beam radiation uses the proton. it is larger than an electron and therefore, does not pass through the body as easily. for that reason, that is why you can control the depth as which you want this proton to go into the body. so, if you set it for the prostate bed, then, it doesn't pass through the colon for example.
the biggest problem which these units is their size. and depending on where you live, you will have to go to them if you want this type of treatment.
i hope i did a better job of explaining it this time.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Front Office - 13 Mar 2007 12:03 GMT > "c palmer" <PALMER_ENT@webtv.net> wrote in message > .. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > control the depth of penetration of the beam's energy and that is what > you want to kill it - to drop all of it's energy and less damage. It is my understanding that these 2-Mev gamma rays that the IMRT produces are in fact photons, but of a higher energy than ordinary X-rays, which are in the Kev energy range. (Ordinary visible light is in the couple of ev range.)
Different photon energies -- which means the same as different wavelengths -- might affect the depth of penetration of the beam. I.e., maybe the tissues are less transparent to certain discrete wavelengths. I will Google "photon therapy."
> =====> after reading what i wrote, i guess i should add some more so > that all of this makes more sense. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to no damage at all. we are constantly being hit with them in life. > some by nature, others by radio waves for example. My understanding is that the high-energy electrons are slammed into a piece of metal, from which that X-rays and gamma rays are emitted. I don't think that electrons could penetrate very deep into living tissue.
> in simple terms, it must take a bunch of them to pass through the body > in an organized fashion to do the damage needed to kill the cancer. but [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > this proton to go into the body. so, if you set it for the prostate bed, > then, it doesn't pass through the colon for example. You and I have different comprehensions of the physics here, Curtis.
> the biggest problem which these units is their size. and depending on > where you live, you will have to go to them if you want this type of > treatment. Fortunately, I think, I live just outside Washington, D.C., where there are lots of well-equipped medical facilities.
thanks,
Bob
Front Office - 13 Mar 2007 11:53 GMT > Bob, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I think Curtis meant to say "proton beam", not "photon beam". Funny, I read it as "proton," didn't notice the mispelling.
> Being relatively massive particles, and traveling at far less > than the speed of light, protons can be used in such a way as to > penetrate through half of the body and stop in the prostate > region, rather than going all the way through as with x-rays > (photons). Even though I have worked on the perimeter of physics (I am a mechanical engineer) it is difficult for me to imagine how a proton's depth of penetration is dependent upon its speed. (But then, the solar wind, which is mosly protons, is able to penetrate the walls of manned spaceships. Interesting.)
> However I have no idea of the relative merits of each approach. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > profession) told me that all surgeons _think_ they've gotten all > the prostate tissue, but they can't know for sure. Yep, nobody knows anything for sure. (In writing that, I realize that life would be utterly meaningless if we could foresee the future.)
> In any case, it seems to me at least possible that Curtis' > speculation is right and you don't actually have cancer. But I > don't know the probability of that. Gonna ask my urologist about his thoughts on that again.
>>either way, radiation is going to be needed to kill the tissue >>and stop the growth. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to be solid evidence of cancer after surgery. You're still below > that. And if it is cancer, it's clearly very slow growing. Yes, that 0.2 threshhold. I'm thinking about taking my time on making a decision . . .
> But, judging from your posting, it sounds like your main problem > at this time is not cancer, but depression. In many ways, > anxiety, panic and depression are even bigger enemies than > cancer. Cancer can kill you after some years of development. > Anxiety, panic and depression can turn the years you have into a > sort of living death. Words of wisdom. Thanks.
> Getting pills for this was an excellent idea. I hope they help. > You should also consider counseling. I shall consider it.
> As Curtis says in his posting signature, "growing old is > mandatory". It happens to every one of us - if we're lucky! All [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the good times left to them are indeed good times - to be enjoyed > and savored just as much as the good times of our youth. Encouraging words, those. Too bad we cannot will ourselves into this or that state of mind.
> You can become one of those people. It isn't a simple thing to > do. You can't just turn off the anxiety and turn on the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to help you with it, it will be a battle that you win more and > more often. Maybe you are right, but my experience is that my mood is not subject to my will.
Thanks for your good words, Alan.
Bob
Steve Kramer - 14 Mar 2007 14:27 GMT > Even though I have worked on the perimeter of physics (I am > a mechanical engineer) it is difficult for me to imagine how > a proton's depth of penetration is dependent upon its speed. > (But then, the solar wind, which is mosly protons, is able > to penetrate the walls of manned spaceships. Interesting.) I'm not at all connected to physics or engineering, so what I'm about to say may be completely foolish, but I think speed has nothing to do with it. No matter the electromagnetic sources or properties, I believe all travel at 186,000 miles per second (in a vacuum). It is, I believe, more a matter of the length of the cycle; shorter cycle beams being able to penetrate further for some reason.
chasjac - 14 Mar 2007 20:10 GMT >No matter the electromagnetic sources or properties, I believe all travel at > 186,000 miles per second (in a vacuum). I'm not sure about that, Steve. Protons are particles with a mass, so I think they necessarily travel slower than light. They can get accelerated to speeds close to light, and therefore increase in mass, according to special relativity..More mass should mean more penetration, and that should mean a greater depth.
--charlie
Front Office - 13 Mar 2007 11:42 GMT > hi bob - sorry to hear about the recurrence. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to drop all of it's energy and less damage. check out BOB or let me > know and i'll post the address for it. I haven't considered proton beams.
Apparently, in my case, the idea is to irradiate a volume of tissue, which the IMRT is designed to do. Can a proton beam do that? I guess I will have to study up on that matter.
> so here's the cards..... placed on the table in front of you. you've > got one shot left to kill the prostate cancer. that is why they are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the other point to consider here. this may NOT prostate cancer, but a > piece of BPH tissue that was left behind. Yeah, I keep wondering about that possibility.
> the radiation machines have improved over the years and they make every > effort to pin point the radiation on where it is suppose to go. The developments in that area, in the time since my mother was subjected to it 8 years ago, see quite amazing.
> i can understand the depression issue having going through it myself. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > average time" there are a ton of variables left out. different gleason > score would affect this time line for example. Thanks for these numbers -- which, as you point out, I should regard as averages within a possible wide range
> so, since you have no prostate, you got rid of those 8 years. if the > pca spreads and sets up shop, it's just a matter of time from there. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of dying because of complications from pca, or since i have a chance for > survival and a second chance to be cured, should i take it? A succinct way of putting it. Thanks Curtis.
Bob
Steve Jordan - 12 Mar 2007 19:46 GMT On March 12, Bob wrote:
> IMRT is pending in my future -- pending in that I have to > make a decision about whether or not to face having > 2-Mev gamma-ray photons blasted through my pelvic > region, offering collateral damage to my bladder and > rectum, and hip joints, too, for that matter. I don't know where Bob got the horror stories, but they seem to be based upon some occurrences from many years ago.
Here's just one 2007 abstract of a clinical study of IMRT side effects (SEs):
"Intensity-modulated radiation therapy for prostate cancer: Late morbidity and results on biochemical control.
De Meerleer GO, et al.
PURPOSE: To report on late morbidity and biochemical relapse-free survival (bRFS) after intensity-modulated radiation therapy (IMRT) for prostate cancer. METHODS: Between 1998 and 2005 133 patients were treated with IMRT for T(1-4) N0 M0 prostate cancer. The median follow-up time was 36months. In a first cohort, patients received a median planning target volume (PTV) dose of 74Gy with a hard constraint on maximum rectum dose of 72Gy (74R72, n=51). Later, median PTV and maximum rectum dose were increased to 76 and 74Gy, respectively (76R74; n=82). We defined low-risk (n=20), intermediate-risk (n=70) and high-risk (n=43) groups. Androgen deprivation was given to patients in the intermediate- and high-risk group. Late gastro-intestinal (GI) and genito-urinary (GU) morbidity and biochemical relapse, in accordance with the ASTRO consensus, were recorded. RESULTS: We observed grade 2 GI (17%) and GU (19%), grade 3 GI (1%) and GU (3%) late toxicities. Except for hematuria, the median duration of side-effects was 6 months. Biochemical relapse-free survival (bRFS) at 3 and 5years was 88% and 83%, respectively, with a significantly better 3-year bRSF for the 76R74 than for the 74R72 group (p=0.01). Five-year bRFS for patients in the low-risk, intermediate-risk and high-risk group was 100%, 94% and 74%, respectively (p<0.01). CONCLUSION: IMRT for localized or locally advanced prostate cancer combines low morbidity with excellent biochemical control.
This is just one of 210 abstracts published on the PubMed website of the National Center for Biotechnology Information at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
I found them by searching on IMRT side effects.
And there is an even more accurate method called Image-Guided Radiation Therapy (IGRT), which uses daily pre-treatment CAT scans to locate the prostate precisely.
Don't permit outdated tales of woe to control the decision process.
Secondly, I wonder whether any tx at all is required at this point. And if so, is radiation appropriate? It is a local tx. They must have a target for the radiation. How do they know where to aim? A Gleason of 8 raises the possibility of systemic (not necessarily metastasized) disease.
I recommend consultation with a medical oncologist, preferably one who specializes in prostate cancer (PCa). A list of medics can be found on the authoritative website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html Click on Resources, then PC Doctors on the list that will appear. Not all specialists are listed, but it is a good start.
Have copies of all records sent to the med onc in advance.
(snip)
> Two or three years ago, my PSA became detectable. (I > can't say exactly when because I mostly cannot face > this whole issue; I effectively ignore it.) I'll be frank: It won't ignore you.
> Now, six years after the surgery, in January of this year, > the urologist measured my PSA at 0.14. (I keep meaning [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lots of ambivalence about really wanting to know . . . yet > I am curious.) A thorough education can be gained from the best text on PCa, _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ 2nd ed., subtitled The Empowered Patient's Guide" by medical oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum, MD, and PCa warrior Donna Pogliano. It is available via the PCRI website as well as other PCa sites, and Amazon (30+ four-star reviews), Barnes & Noble, any bookstore. A lifesaver.
Study, Learn, Take Charge!
Regards,
Steve J
"Empowerment: taking responsibility for and authority over one's own outcomes based on education and knowledge of the consequences and contingencies involved in one's own decisions. This focus provides the uplifting energy that can sustain in the face of crisis." --Donna Pogliano, co-author of _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_, subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide."
Steve Jordan - 12 Mar 2007 21:10 GMT Earlier today, I wrote regarding _a Primer on Prostate Cancer_:
> It is available via the PCRI website as well as > other PCa sites, and Amazon (30+ four-star reviews), Barnes & Noble, any > bookstore. A lifesaver. Oops.
I must be arithmatically challenged today. The number of stars is five, not four. Now I hope that Donna and Stephen won't pounce on me :-(
Regards,
Steve J
Front Office - 13 Mar 2007 12:09 GMT > On March 12, Bob wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > CONCLUSION: IMRT for localized or locally advanced prostate cancer > combines low morbidity with excellent biochemical control. Lotta tech info there, but I think I got the jist of it. It's encouraging. Thanks.
> This is just one of 210 abstracts published on the PubMed website of the > National Center for Biotechnology Information at: > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed > > I found them by searching on IMRT side effects. I will do that too . . .
> And there is an even more accurate method called Image-Guided Radiation > Therapy (IGRT), which uses daily pre-treatment CAT scans to locate the > prostate precisely. > > Don't permit outdated tales of woe to control the decision process. My take on radiation therapy was formed by seeing what it did to my mother 8 years ago. Not good.
But things seem to have changed.
> Secondly, I wonder whether any tx at all is required at this point. And > if so, is radiation appropriate? It is a local tx. They must have a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the authoritative website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at: > http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html Sounds like a good suggestion.
>> Now, six years after the surgery, in January of this year, >> the urologist measured my PSA at 0.14. (I keep meaning [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > other PCa sites, and Amazon (30+ four-star reviews), Barnes & Noble, any > bookstore. A lifesaver. I will order it today. Thanks.
Bob
chasjac - 12 Mar 2007 20:54 GMT Hello, Bob:
I am sorry to hear about the rise in your post-op PSA. It seems pretty slow in rising. Have you and your doctor calculated a doubling time yet? I am not as familiar with that calculation as I should be, but I think it's one that will help guide you in additional treatment decisions ...
... if any are warranted. You should check this out with an oncologist ot two, just to get a feel for what is possible. As others have already said, radiation is not what it was even a few years ago; the treatment options have come a long way from 'carpet bombing.'
All the best,
charlie
Front Office - 13 Mar 2007 12:12 GMT > Hello, Bob: > > I am sorry to hear about the rise in your post-op PSA. It seems > pretty slow in rising. Have you and your doctor calculated a doubling > time yet? Not yet. I am waiting for a call from him now. I will ask him about doubling time.
> I am not as familiar with that calculation as I should be, > but I think it's one that will help guide you in additional treatment [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have already said, radiation is not what it was even a few years ago; > the treatment options have come a long way from 'carpet bombing.' Several people have suggested consulting with an oncologist. I will look into that.
> All the best, Thanks, Charlie.
Bob
fred - 13 Mar 2007 09:58 GMT Bob:
I did salvage treatment last year after my PSA started going up slowly (although not as slowly as yours). 8 weeks of it. I had very few side effects during treatment and all were very tolerable. No (or very minor) side effects since, and my PSA has come down to about 1/4th of its pre-treatment level (although I always understand my next test could show an increase; that's what we all have to live with). I continued walking, playing tennis and golf through the treatment, and still do all that today.
As I'm sure you know, if you have a recurrence, it may be local (treatable with SRT) or systemic. There's no reliable way to know which one you have.
Your PSA rise is very slow, which is clearly a good sign. They told me that the slower the growth in PSA, the greater the chance of a local recurrence. You can wait and see; the conventional advice is that SRT has a good chance of being effective so long as you do it before you reach 0.6 (or 1.0, depending on whom you believe). I chose to have mine done earlier on the theory that there was little to be gained by waiting since all 3 docs I consulted were convinced I had or would have a recurrence.
I went to a place that used the Trilogy IMRT/IGRT system which is (or was) supposedly the state of the art. The radiologist told me I had about and 85% chance of a complete cure through SRT (I take that with a grain of salt cos I heard the same thing from the surgeon 2 years earlier!).
Making the decision about treatment was the worst part for me. The treatment itself was no big deal.
Of course, your mileage may vary, but I don't think you're in too bad a shape
Good luck !
Fred (history below)
4/99 PSA 1.58 10/01 PSA 1.68 9/02 PSA 2.7 10/03 PSA 3.8 11/03 needle biopsy. Positive for Gleasons 6 on left side. 12/03 Radical Prostatectomy performed at the Cleveland Clinic. Gleasons 3+4 = 7, clear surgical margins, extracapsular extension established. 3/17/04 PSA 0.003 4/27/04 PSA 0.003 7/22/04 PSA <0.1 (not 3rd generation test) 11/10/04 PSA <0.1 (not 3rd generation test) 5/10/05 PSA <0.1 (not 3rd generation test) 10/19/05 PSA 0.050 2/3/06 PSA 0.082 3/23/06 PSA 0.110 3/06-6/06 IMRT SRT 9/06 PSA 0.044 12/06 PSA 0.025
Front Office - 14 Mar 2007 10:58 GMT > Bob: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > continued walking, playing tennis and golf through the treatment, and > still do all that today. That's good news, about the minal side effects. Thanks.
> As I'm sure you know, if you have a recurrence, it may be local > (treatable with SRT) or systemic. There's no reliable way to know > which one you have. Roger that.
> Your PSA rise is very slow, which is clearly a good sign. They told me > that the slower the growth in PSA, the greater the chance of a local [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a grain of salt cos I heard the same thing from the surgeon 2 years > earlier!). No one ever knows for sure -- which is the maddening aspect of the thing, and of life generally . . .
> Making the decision about treatment was the worst part for me. The > treatment itself was no big deal. Thanks for that news.
> Of course, your mileage may vary, but I don't think you're in too bad > a shape [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > 9/06 PSA 0.044 > 12/06 PSA 0.025 Thanks for the data, and your perspective.
Bob
rosbif - 13 Mar 2007 10:23 GMT Hello Bob, I had an LRP late last year and am also relatively a newbie. I'm sorry to hear about the possible recurrence of your PCa and I identify completely with your reaction to it, wanting to know but fearing the understanding. Maybe others here will correct me on this but from what I can gather your PSA velocity has been very slow - if so this must be a good sign. Leah, who posts often here, offered this finding:-
http://www.asco.org/portal/site/ASCO/menuitem.34d60f5624ba07fd506fe310ee37a01d/? vgnextoid=76f8201eb61a7010VgnVCM100000ed730ad1RCRD&vmview=abst_detail_view&confI D=40&abstractID=30069
..needs chewing 32 times and will still be highly indigestible but it appears to me to put your prospects in a very favourable light. If there has been a recurrence, it's been slow to appear (obviously good), also, from my once-only review of the video that comes with this study, it looks like 0.14 is early to be considering treatment - 0.5 seems to be the breakpoint here. That's not to say there would be no benefit in acting early....one of many questions that lacks the defiinitive answer.
Being a pessimist, I expect to have to face the possibility of SRT at some time int he future so I'd be interested in any thoughts you or others may have about strategy and anything in this study which catches your attention. Very best of luck to you.
>Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > Bob Front Office - 14 Mar 2007 11:08 GMT > Hello Bob, I had an LRP late last year and am also relatively a > newbie. I'm sorry to hear about the possible recurrence of your PCa [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > ..needs chewing 32 times . . . Indeed it does!
> . . . and will still be highly indigestible but it > appears to me to put your prospects in a very favourable light. If > there has been a recurrence, it's been slow to appear (obviously > good), also, from my once-only review of the video that comes with > this study, it looks like 0.14 is early to be considering treatment - > 0.5 seems to be the breakpoint here. Right. 0.2 seems to the the take-action point.
I talked to my urologist yesterday, and he suggested I come in next month for a PSA test, just to check on things.
> That's not to say there would > be no benefit in acting early....one of many questions that lacks the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > catches your attention. > Very best of luck to you. If I decide to go with the SRT, I will report back on this ng about the results . . .
Good luck to you too.
Bob
>>Hi guys, >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] >> >> Bob Steve Kramer - 14 Mar 2007 14:15 GMT > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Thanks for any comments, Bob,
At 59 years old and with a PSA of 38 and a Gleason of 8, my first reaction to your message was, "must have been treated by a urologist who thinks his pride is important that Bob's life." Then, when I read of your positive margin at the apex, I thought, "f--------- urologist probably killed him."
However, it is quite clear that you have beaten all the odds. If you have gone six years after a 38 PSA, 8 Gleason, and positive margins, without any treatment, and are still at a 0.14, I would consider that almost miraculous. Are you sure there was no hormone treatment?
I think that if I were in your position (which, without a medical degree or background is all I can comment on), I would seek out an oncologist and discuss with him watchful waiting. I can't believe I am even saying this, but your cancer is one that just might be best left alone and just observed for awhile longer.
Oh, and I'd fire the oncologist. He risked your life for no good reason and if he knows nothing of IMRT, he knows too little to treat you.
As to your depression, I deal with it on a day-to-day basis with my wife. So, I know what I'm about to tell you will likely be summarily ignored. However, I feel compelled, nonetheless, to inform you that you are one of the luckiest bastards alive. If all the numbers you related herein are accurate and you have had no treatment since your surgery, you have a really good chance of living out a full life.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Front Office - 14 Mar 2007 11:15 GMT >>Hi guys, >> [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > treatment, and are still at a 0.14, I would consider that almost miraculous. > Are you sure there was no hormone treatment? Right, no hormone treatment.
The first urologist I went to wanted to remove my urinary sphincter along with the prostate, then do X-rays AND hormones. The propect of life-long incontinence did not interest me.
The second urologist said the sphinter should go, which was still unaceptable, even without radiation and hormones.
The third guy said he'd take the prostate and nerves only, which I expected would give me a few years.
I guess I have indeed been very lucky.
> I think that if I were in your position (which, without a medical degree or > background is all I can comment on), I would seek out an oncologist and > discuss with him watchful waiting. I can't believe I am even saying this, > but your cancer is one that just might be best left alone and just observed > for awhile longer. A visit to an oncologist is looking like an increasing possibility.
> Oh, and I'd fire the oncologist. He risked your life for no good reason and > if he knows nothing of IMRT, he knows too little to treat you. I think you mean the urologist. He's done about 1500 of these operations, and he has one of the best reputations in the Washington, D.C., metro area.
But, such credentials do not mean that he did not mess up.
> As to your depression, I deal with it on a day-to-day basis with my wife. > So, I know what I'm about to tell you will likely be summarily ignored. > However, I feel compelled, nonetheless, to inform you that you are one of > the luckiest bastards alive. If all the numbers you related herein are > accurate and you have had no treatment since your surgery, you have a really > good chance of living out a full life. Much thanks for that perspective.
Bob
Steve Kramer - 14 Mar 2007 15:29 GMT >> Oh, and I'd fire the oncologist. He risked your life for no good reason >> and if he knows nothing of IMRT, he knows too little to treat you. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But, such credentials do not mean that he did not > mess up. I did mean urologist. And, I'm sure he is a fine surgeon. Maybe the best surgeons are more apt to cut when they should not.
But, like I said, your post-surgery is fantastic. So, my opinion is moot or -- and this is just utterly unthinkable -- wrong.
In either case, the important point to be made is you need someone to take you past the surgery and your urologist has, for all intents and purposes, told you he is not the man.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA <.1 <.1 <.1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04, <0.05 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Lud - 14 Mar 2007 23:10 GMT > Hi guys, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Thanks for any comments, > > Bob IMRT properly done should result in minimal side effects. I had heavy dose of 80 Gy 4 years ago with few lingering side effects. The technology should be even better now.
What you should worry about is where are the cancer cells - otherwise it is shooting blind. Prior to my IMRT, I had a Prostascint fused with CT scan by Dr Bruce Sodee in Cleveland to define the target. Without a clear target, I would have second thoughts about getting any radiation.
Best wishes ... Lud
Front Office - 19 Mar 2007 10:02 GMT >>Hi guys, >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Best wishes ... Lud Thanks for the encouraging words, Lud.
Yeah, finding the target is definitely a concern of mine.
To this point (i.e., prior to your comment on Prostascint and the CT scan method of aiming) I have been convinced that the method offered by my local hospital was adequate.
But now I will look a little further into this . . .
(BTW, I live about a mile from NIH. I think I might go over there and talk to the prostate specialists about this aiming business.)
thanks,
Bob
fred - 19 Mar 2007 23:00 GMT > > What you should worry about is where are the cancer cells - otherwise > > it is shooting blind. Prior to my IMRT, I had a Prostascint fused with > > CT scan by Dr Bruce Sodee in Cleveland to define the target. Without a > > clear target, I would have second thoughts about getting any > > radiation. Memory may fail me, but I thought the consensus was that at low PSA levels (and Bob's certainly is) Prostascint was so unreliable and shows enough false positives that you're as likely to target the wrong area as the cancer cells. Maybe overstated, but that was the gist of it.
My SRT radiologist reviewed my post-surgery path report, and said he was targeting as the primary focal point the area where the cancer was located before surgery (like the northwest quadrant, or whatever the equivalent medical terms are), but he indicated that he was covering the entire prostate bed. He also said that he was using the steel surgical clips remaining in the body as reference points in setting up the IMRT machine.
I sure hope Prostascint and CT scan now give a more reliable image, but as of last year, that's not the way it sounded to me. But Lud's right to tell you to check it out and make your own call.
If they are radiating the whole prostate bed anyway, does primary targeting really make a whole lot of difference?
Good luck and keep us informed. This is how we all learn.
Fred
Front Office - 21 Mar 2007 13:50 GMT >>>What you should worry about is where are the cancer cells - otherwise >>>it is shooting blind. Prior to my IMRT, I had a Prostascint fused with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > area as the cancer cells. Maybe overstated, but that was the gist of > it. I think that the urologist who worked on me 6 years ago said, about 5 years ago, that there was a method by which to locate cancer cells, should they show up in me again.
About two years ago, he told me that said method was not all that reliable.
I will ask him, next time I talk to him, if ProstaScint was the method he was initially thinking of.
> My SRT radiologist reviewed my post-surgery path report, and said he > was targeting as the primary focal point the area where the cancer was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Fred Alan Meyer - 20 Mar 2007 16:38 GMT > ... > (BTW, I live about a mile from NIH. I think I might > go over there and talk to the prostate specialists about > this aiming business.) Bob,
I was treated with radiation at an NIH clinical trial in Bethesda. I was very happy with the expertise and the treatment that I received and, so far (knock on wood), I am happy with the outcome.
What NIH can do is enter you in one of their clinical trials. I don't believe they do any other treatment except clinical trials. However they always have a large number of trials running, and there are usually some that are refinements of current, known to work, techniques, as well as some that are highly experimental. It is possible that there will be a fit between your case and one of their trials.
As everywhere else, there are surgeons, medical oncologists, and radiation oncologists, and each generally believes in his branch of medicine. However they do not make money from their patients and have no axe to grind with regards to getting patients in order to generate income.
Talking to them is free. In fact, if you and they agree on your entering one of their trials, the treatment is free. I never had to pay a dime for anything and never had to produce an insurance card. I didn't even pay for parking, and now, three years later, I still pay nothing for follow-up care.
If nothing else, going to NIH will give you a chance to meet some doctors who are truly knowledgeable about the science as well as the practice of medicine, and to discuss your case with them.
The phone number for the Radiation Oncology Branch is: 301-496-5457.
I recommend you call them.
Alan
Front Office - 21 Mar 2007 13:59 GMT >>... >>(BTW, I live about a mile from NIH. I think I might [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > experimental. It is possible that there will be a fit between > your case and one of their trials. This coming Friday, at noon, there is a talk being given at Navy Medical about NIH clinical trials in re prostate cancer and recurrence. I am going to check that out, see if anything relevant to me is underway at NIH. (I will be pedaling over there, which might make it a little easier to get on the Navy Medical campus. Weather forecast looks favorable.)
> As everywhere else, there are surgeons, medical oncologists, and > radiation oncologists, and each generally believes in his branch [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Talking to them is free. In fact, if you and they agree on your > entering one of their trials, the treatment is free. Fact is, NIH offered to do my initial surgery, with 11 urologists partaking in the process -- but with this catch: I would have been the first U.S. laparscopic patient.
It would have all been free.
But, given my high initial numbers, I'm glad I decided to go with a private surgeon.
> I never had > to pay a dime for anything and never had to produce an insurance > card. I didn't even pay for parking, and now, three years later, > I still pay nothing for follow-up care. That low price does have its appeal . . .
> If nothing else, going to NIH will give you a chance to meet some > doctors who are truly knowledgeable about the science as well as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 301-496-5457. > I recommend you call them. Much thanks for the number, Alan. I WILL call them this week.
Bob
Lud - 21 Mar 2007 04:54 GMT > To this point (i.e., prior to your comment on Prostascint > and the CT scan method of aiming) I have been > convinced that the method offered by my local hospital > was adequate. > > Bob There is always talk of false positives with Prostascint scans. I'll tell my experience - I have had 4 scans in all. First one in 2000 by Dr Haseman (he was the over reader for Prostascint) indicated a lymph node on the left side but this scan was not combined with a CT for positioning. Second was in Quebec city, less than 10 scan experience and NOT fused with CT scan indicated a lymph node on the right but they missed the prostate.
Third scan by Dr Sodee fused with CT scan - Dr Sodee has a rigorous 24 hour purge of the bowls (the most unpleasant part of the procedure). After the scan he showed me the images and explained that without fusion residual tracer in the kinks of the bowl can easily be mistaken for lymph nodes. His findings were left and right side of prostate (biopsy indicated only left side) and both seminal vesicles, no lymph nodes. IMRT radiation was 80 Gy to prostate and seminal vesicles and 65 Gy to the periphery and lymph nodes. I was positioned by outside markers, the port scans done of the 3 marker seeds in the prostate and repositioned on this target, at every rad session. I thought it couldn't be any better - on target and sufficient radiation to do the job. With the precise targeting, there was very little residual side effects after several months except stiff hips. ADT was started more than 6 months before IMRT and continued after - yet a year after my PSA began to rise.
My 4th scan was by Sodee again, 3 years after the radiation. The scan result was the main tumors in the left and right side of the gland were gone but residual cancer remained at the apex and base of the prostate and both seminal vesicles, nothing else lit up. My impression is that IMRT was right on target where the markers were centered but without peripheral scatter of radiation, the surrounding part of the anatomy was moving and was missed.
At the PCa conference in 2005, Dr Sodee explained his experience with false positives. He did Prostascint scans prior to RP and then compared his result with the actual glad that was removed to be sure he was reading the scans correctly. In some of the scans, patients with even low PSA's, he reported remote mets which the surgeons didn't think possible and they could not find. Over the years these "false positives" cases started to have cancer recurrence and he found that some 80% of these false positives turned into real positives.
When someone tells that Prostascints (3dimensional and fused with CT scan) have false positives, I cannot understand this same doctor supporting bone scans that are so notorious at real false positives and negatives in a 2 dimensional plane and not fused with a CT scan - it just doesn't make sense.
Front Office - 21 Mar 2007 14:09 GMT >>To this point (i.e., prior to your comment on Prostascint >>and the CT scan method of aiming) I have been [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > than 6 months before IMRT and continued after - yet a year after my > PSA began to rise. Yeah, the hips. I had been wondering about the hips when I first saw (on the Web) that the radiation goes right through those joints. You are the first to have mentioned an adverse effect in those locations.
> My 4th scan was by Sodee again, 3 years after the radiation. The scan > result was the main tumors in the left and right side of the gland [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > and negatives in a 2 dimensional plane and not fused with a CT scan - > it just doesn't make sense. Not a whole lot of anything makes sense to me these days -- hence, in part, my bad attitude toward things generally, and prostate cancer treatment in particular.
Basically, I am a 14-year-old stuck in the body of a 65-year-old old man.
I am trying hard to improve my mood by thinking of non-prostate stuff.
Thanks for telling of your experience with all this.
Bob
NICK - 22 Mar 2007 06:15 GMT > Yeah, the hips. I had been wondering about the hipswhen I > first saw (on the Web) that the radiation goes right through > those joints. You are the first to have mentioned an adverse > effect in those locations. My left hip was replaced in summer 2000. (Ankylosing spondylitis dx'd in 1976)
I was dx'd with PCa in June 2001 (biopsy). 2nd opinion early 2002 gave same results.
I was all set for radiation, had CT, made the appointments, went in, and the bastards already had someone else on the table and said I'd be next -- in an hour. I walked out and never returned. Then the bastards fraudulenly billed Medicare and Tricare for Life THREE TIMES for dates I was never near Grossmont Hospital.
I'm now due to get the right hip replaced.
How would all that metal affect the radiation beam if I was ever to receive RT?
Front Office - 22 Mar 2007 15:21 GMT >>Yeah, the hips. I had been wondering about the hipswhen I >>first saw (on the Web) that the radiation goes right through [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Medicare and Tricare for Life THREE TIMES for dates I > was never near Grossmont Hospital. That sort of thing seems to happen a lot.
I guess you ended up with surgery instead of radiation treatment of the cancer?
> I'm now due to get the right hip replaced. > > How would all that metal affect the radiation beam > if I was ever to receive RT? Interesting question, Nick.
When I talked to the radiologist about his machine, I was surprised to learn that the energy of the photons was 2-million electron volts (Mev), which is pretty deep into what used to be called the gamma-ray range. (The energy of X-ray photons is more in the range of tens of thousands of electron volts [kev], which isn't energetic enough to get through thicker sections of bone.) The IMRT machine actually contains a linear accelerator for the electrons that produce gamma rays when they slam into a metal plate.
(Gamma rays and X-rays are, along with visible light and radio waves, all part of the electromagnetic spectrum. [Photons of visible light have energies in the range of ~2 electron volts.])
Two-Mev photons would probably, I would bet, be scattered by the metal parts; therefore, 'shadows' would be cast upon regions that were supposed to be irradiated. So, that's my estimate, based on a tiny bit of my work that has involved high-energy photons and particles. Others no doubt would know more on this interesting question.
Two-Mev gamma-ray photons are at about the midpoint in the range of the gamma-ray energy spread from a nuclear explosion (as I recall). It seems ironic that so many people who are afraid of nuclear energy will readily submit to having their bodies blasted with gamma rays. Me, I am in favor of nuclear energy, but I do have qualms about having gamma rays shot through me each day for 7 weeks.
best wishes,
Bob
NICK - 22 Mar 2007 21:52 GMT >> I was all set for radiation, had CT, made the appointments, >> went in, and the bastards already had someone else on >> the table and said I'd be next -- in an hour. I walked out >> and never returned.
> I guess you ended up with surgery instead of > radiation treatment of the cancer? Different account, different access for this reply.
I found this support group and 2 local ones (after 3 urologists lied and said there were none). Discovered none of the docs had explained ALL of the SEs involved. One lied, after the biopsy, that 40 pounds overweight ruled out seeds. The last one lost 5 years of my medical records.
So I'm taking the watchful waiting course. PSA drops down then swings back up (never beyond original).
70 years old with fused ribs hindering chest expansion and breathing (ankylosing spondylitis - AS) and fused neck that made me stop driving in 1996 because I couldn't turn it to watch for traffic.
AS also caused a few attacks of acute uritis (the doc's term), and it has a nasty habit of attacking other organs.
So I'm gonna die of something or another. Don't know what yet. Might be a car I couldn't see coming as I step off a curb.
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