 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2007Good soy , flax, and fish oil for PCa patients
I just left a class taught by a very impressive dietitian. She has at least one advanced degree in the field, follows the research closely, treats a *lot* of aging U.S. men (she works for the U.S.'s largest PCa research agency, the VA), attends national and international conferences on diet and nutrition, and is a hard-charging, motivated advocate for healthy eating for both prevention and treatment of disease. So I was surprised when she said soy and flax were good even for PCa patients. When I said, "Doesn't emerging research say the opposite?", she said, "That applies to products manufactured from soy and flax (e.g., isoflavones, flaxseed oil), not to the soybeans and flaxseed. She went on to emphasize that, as with most other food products manufactured from actual plants, soy and flax *products* are a far cry from Mother Nature's cupboard. Flaxseed oil, in particular, is so unstable that it oxidizes more quickly than about any other oil known, leaving essentially a jar of free radicals, which promote cancer. But she insisted that fresh flax seed, whole or ground just before consumption, is still the prostate-safe, cardiovascular system wonder-food it always was. Ditto soy; the actual soy *food*, i.e., soybeans or tofu made directly from same, is great food with no threat to PC patients. In fact it should help ADT pts mitigate drug-induced lipids disasters. Comments? Is she right? If your non-enteric-coated fish oil capsules leave any fishy aftertaste or burps, or if they are coated to prevent same, that's because they are essentially aged, oxidized bilge-water from fishing trawlers, processed for human consumption. If you watch the Discovery Channel, that should alarm you. Picture a trawler returning to shore after a few days at sea, unloading its catch at the fish factory, vacuuming the holds to recover the oily sludge left there from on-board processing (gutting, scaling, whatever), treating that sludge to kill or remove the TRULY alarming stuff it may contain, and selling what's left as . . . ta daaaa . . . fish oil capsules. That's what we buy, and it smells and tastes like old fish 'cause that's what it is: old, oxidized fish oil. Unless, that is, our fish oil comes from ships designed from the ground up to collect, preserve, and transport fresh, unoxidized fish oil. The dietitian listed four brands known to produce and sell only this real McCoy loaded with unoxidized Omega-3 oils: Nordic Naturals, Pur, Barlean's, and Icelandic. All but the Pur brand Google up easily; pick your source. She says the good ones tend to cost about four times as much as the "refined bilge oils". Comments? She's convinced of this; do our experts concur? I.P. >I just left a class taught by a very impressive dietitian. snip... >So I was surprised when she said soy and flax were good even for PCa >patients. When I said, "Doesn't emerging research say the opposite?", >she said, "That applies to products manufactured from soy and flax >(e.g., isoflavones, flaxseed oil), not to the soybeans and flaxseed. snip... >Flaxseed oil, in particular, is so unstable that it oxidizes more quickly > than about any other oil known, leaving essentially a jar of free [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Comments? Is she right? What she says seems logical. However, it would be desirable that this view is endorsed by other experts / professionals - and supported by product analysis (e.g. presence / absence of free radicals on oils is easily detected). Did she put forward any supporting data? Glad to see positive references to soy. I usually have one soy based meal per day (instead of meat) and was running out of alternatives... >If your non-enteric-coated fish oil capsules leave any fishy aftertaste >or burps, or if they are coated to prevent same, that's because they are >essentially aged, oxidized bilge-water from fishing trawlers, processed >for human consumption. snip... >Unless, that is, our fish oil comes from ships designed from the ground >up to collect, preserve, and transport fresh, unoxidized fish oil. The [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >your source. She says the good ones tend to cost about four times as >much as the "refined bilge oils". Instead of buying expensive fish oil capsules (and have doubts about its quality) I rather go to the source. I have one fish meal a day, usually at diner. Actually it is a pleasure for me. I live in an area where you have always plenty of fresh fish. Grilled salmon: one of my favourites! Just Ra ra ra IP! Thank you, thank you. I swear, I waffle on positions proposed here for just about every post. Soy-good. Soy-bad. Soy-good again. I ate my sushi rolls the other night without the soy sauce. I love the soy sauce! I love Tofu! Dear Universe, help me to get through this tribulation with a modicum of sanity left over when its said and done. and Hugh, dude, I'm thinking of you. WSF > Ra ra ra IP! > Thank you, thank you. > I waffle on positions proposed here for just about every post. > Soy-good. Soy-bad. Soy-good again. Waffling is certainly in order in this sport, but I'd hold off on the backflips until the local experts here and at s.m.d.c. chime in on this particular unverified story. But man *really* screws up Mother Nature's packaging (e.g., white bread -- the vast majority of supermarket bread regardless of its fancy names -- is little more than artificial crap that happens to be manufactured from what was once wheat), I'm sure the same goes for soy products. > I ate my sushi rolls the other night without the soy sauce. > I love the soy sauce! Even if it isn't a problem with PC, it *is* a major problem if your BP is over 120/75. Soy sauce could almost be regarded as liquid salt, and the allowable healthy upper limit for BP drops with each new announcement. I.P. > > I ate my sushi rolls the other night without the soy sauce. > > I love the soy sauce! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I.P. OK, I love the low sodium Soy Sauce even better. WSF >>> I ate my sushi rolls the other night without the soy sauce. >>> I love the soy sauce! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > OK, I love the low sodium Soy Sauce even better. That's better, as long as you know that an ounce of even that is all the salt most of us should eat all day. I.P. > What she says seems logical. However, it would be desirable that this > view is endorsed by other experts / professionals - and supported by > product analysis (e.g. presence / absence of free radicals on oils is > easily detected). Exactly why I asked this and the s.m.d.c. groups. > Did she put forward any supporting data? Not yet. We meet again next week. > Glad to see positive references to soy. I usually have one soy based > meal per day (instead of meat) and was running out of alternatives... From what we've seen here lately, that much soy would worry me. If I were willing to eat any one food that often for health reasons, it would be fish . . . unless my PC were still in my face. > Instead of buying expensive fish oil capsules (and have doubts about > its quality) I rather go to the source. I have one fish meal a day, > usually at diner. Actually it is a pleasure for me. I live in an area > where you have always plenty of fresh fish. Grilled salmon: one of my > favourites! Never mind my last comment; you're covering both bases . . . and preaching to the real foods choir. However, I would research fish and mercury and PCBs and other pollutants much more before eating it every day. All the lay literature I've seen summarizes that dilemma this way: 1) cold-water fish twice a week is worth the risk (of contaminants) for adults who will not be bearing children and 2) the benefits peak at twice per week. Thus eating cold-water fish more than twice a week adds primarily contamination risk, not benefit. Beyond that, I'd need to research more about claims such as Dr. Mercola's advice (which some experts label as suspect) that all fish is now too contaminated for anyone to eat safely and that it would take pounds of salmon daily to supply enough Omega 3 (but he also sells fish oil). And even though I'm also in a great location for fresh salmon and have tried the Gold Standard -- Copper River salmon -- the best I've eaten comes from Costco. I.P. snip >> Glad to see positive references to soy. I usually have one soy based >> meal per day (instead of meat) and was running out of alternatives... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >pounds of salmon daily to supply enough Omega 3 (but he also sells fish >oil). snip >I.P. One soy based meal per day: your comment - "that much soy would worry me". I have one fish meal a day: your comment - "I would research fish and mercury and PCBs and other pollutants much more before eating it every day". My friend: I need to eat something, or I will die (not from pca, I agree...). May I add that I never eat read meat and hardly eat meat at all. I am just curious: what do you eat actually every day? Just (curious) > May I add that I never eat read meat and hardly eat meat at all. > > I am just curious: what do you eat actually every day? After more than 20 years of studying nutrition (and still learning), my diet is essentially "Mediterranean Diet" ingredients, used to prepare dishes of several nationalities. My usual daily food comprises 1 to 2 pounds of vegetables, a pound of fruit, a small handful of walnuts, whole grains in several forms, olive oil, peanut butter, 1/4-1/3 box of whole grain cereal, 1% milk, yogurt, beans and legumes, meat (4-6 ounces of meticulously trimmed lean red meat, 6-8 oz of skinless poultry breast, or 8-12 oz of fish, mostly salmon), cup of OJ, cup or two of grape and/or grapefruit juice, 2-3 eggs/week, wide variety of spices and sauces. Any dessert at home is fat-free [don't gag; picture a quart of lemon pudding under fat-free whipping cream and Saigon cinnamon, or a mixing bowl of fresh homemade strawberry shortcake, or a few slices of highly spiced homemade pumpkin pie sans crust], usually sugar-free. No trans-fats, almost no sat fat (any salad dressing is canola-based), 30-40 gms fiber, minimal HFCS, no alcohol. [There's almost no ethnic foods we can't make from those ingredients; we're big on Mexican and stir frys.] We study food labels, reject trans and sat fats and refined grains, buy zero junk food. Once-a-week restaurant meal, almost always very healthy, sometimes includes a serious dessert. Haven’t eaten a donut, a slice of bacon, a rib, a chicken skin, or more than a pound of butter or margarine since 1980s. [I'll reintroduce some selected unprocessed soy foods if I become convinced it's advisable for us.] All our cheese, sour cream, sauces, etc. are fat-free. Rare refined-flour meals such as pancakes are accompanied by Metamucil and fruit. My primary daily food sin is salt, and that’s low-sodium and only of debatable harm anyway if BP is under control, as mine is. Unless they're careful to get nutrients common to red meat but not so common elsewhere, red-meat-avoiders are missing some important nutrients, and well-trimmed red meat is often less fatty than chicken breast meat. I.e., some red meat is healthy stuff, depending on quantity and fat content. I.P. >> May I add that I never eat read meat and hardly eat meat at all. >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > >I.P. Thanks for sharing. I notice that you value the "Mediterranean Diet" ingredients - so do I as I was born and live in Portugal, where this type of diet is standard. Unfortunately this didn't stop me being diagnosed with pca at the age of 53. RED MEAT - I worked for many years at a food company with the main focus on fats (margarines, oils, olive oil) so I have heard a lot about fats & health - and took notice of the different and / or conflicting views over the years. - One thing that I believe didn't change over time was the distinction between visible and invisible fat on meat. Even if you manage to remove all the visible fat you still have some 10% of invisible fat on regular beef that you cannot remove. Something to consider. - An interesting quote from the Prostate Cancer Foundation site: "Although the role of dietary fat and red meat in the fight against prostate cancer remains somewhat unclear, findings to date seem to indicate that limiting the intake of red meat might decrease the risk of developing prostate cancer. Start experimenting with new methods for cooking lean red meat-stewing, roasting, or even broiling-and begin to incorporate more fish into your diet. Keep in mind, however, that fish at the top of the food chain, such as king mackerel, tilefish, shark, and swordfish, have high levels of mercury and should therefore be eaten in moderation". Shark and swordfish are much bigger than salmon (and more at the top of the food chain). Not sure about the others. http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org/site/c.itIWK2OSG/b.788359/k.6989/Dietary _Fats_and_Red_Meat.htm FAT-FREE CHEESE, SOUR CREAM, SAUCES - I think we don't have those over here. Are you mentioning 0% fat? And does it have an acceptable taste with 0% fat? - I know of low fat cheese - but it still has some 20-30% fat... I will have to check at the supermarkets again! Could you please advise what is: - OJ - Metamucil Just > Even if you manage to > remove all the visible fat you still have some 10% of invisible fat on > regular beef that you cannot remove. Good. We need some sat fat in our diets. > findings to date seem to > indicate that limiting the intake of red meat might decrease the risk > of developing prostate cancer. Key word: "limiting". No one I've seen recommends eliminating it for medical reasons. Start experimenting with new methods > for cooking lean red meat-stewing, roasting, or even broiling-and > begin to incorporate more fish into your diet. Another key word: "more". Studies repeatedly show that beyond a couple of days a week, the cold-water fish benefit tapers off. OTOH, at least one individual here saw obvious benefits from eating salmon most days of the week, even though it didn't displace red meat often. >fish at the top of the food chain, such as king mackerel, [salmon] > tilefish, shark, and swordfish, have high levels of mercury and should > therefore be eaten in moderation". That's why I'm considering adding some high-quality fish oil. The mercury issue opinions are all over the map for men. > FAT-FREE CHEESE, SOUR CREAM, SAUCES > - I think we don't have those over here. Are you mentioning 0% fat? > And does it have an acceptable taste with 0% fat? > - I know of low fat cheese - but it still has some 20-30% fat I've heard that about the UK. Here we can find fat-free *fat*, because they get to call stuff fat-free if it contains less than half a gram of fat per serving. (It's AMAZIN' how they can cram 1,237 servings of the stuff into a 2-ounce can.) ;-) And I notice a big difference in the availability of low-fat and fat-free foods on the shelves just in different parts of the U.S. It all depends on what sells region by region. Besides, we *must*have* fat in our diet, even if we're recovering from a heart transplant. Tongue-in-cheek, zero-fat foods exist for two reasons: a) they sell (i.e., make money) and b) they give us room in our diet for cheesecake, ice cream, pizza, etc. > Could you please advise what is: > - OJ A football player who murdered . . . Oh, you mean orange juice. > - Metamucil Psyllium husk fiber. I.P. >> Could you please advise what is: >> - OJ > > A football player who murdered . . . Oh, you mean orange juice. AW! That made me giggle! Thanks! Hughie. Now I've almost heard everything! I saw an article in this weeks Newsweek (2/26) about "soy shorts". It is supposed to be environmentally friendly and even provides a lift similar to that of a Wonder Bra. They are even UV protected just in case you happen to take off your pants on a sunny day. I wonder if these will have any impact on the "to soy or not to soy question." By the way, they are not edible. ;) B.A. > Now I've almost heard everything! I saw an article in this weeks Newsweek > (2/26) about "soy shorts". It is supposed to be environmentally friendly > and even provides a lift similar to that of a Wonder Bra. They are even UV > protected just in case you happen to take off your pants on a sunny day. I > wonder if these will have any impact on the "to soy or not to soy > question." By the way, they are not edible. ;) Damn! There's goes the "Eat my shorts." response. 40% of the deforestation of the South American rainforest goes to grow Soy crops. That little kid has to change his plea to Shoeless Jackson to "Soy it aint so, Joe" WSF This is getting ridiculous, or just slightly amusing. Four fu****g times now I've changed that project of mine because one day Soya is good and the next day bad. ad infintum. I tossed out all my soya stuff a week past. (Including three jars of the just bought Isoflavones) BOLLOX. Hughie >I just left a class taught by a very impressive dietitian. She has at least >one advanced degree in the field, follows the research closely, treats a [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > I.P. > I just left a class taught by a very impressive dietitian. [...] > So I was surprised when she saidsoyand flax were good even for PCa > patients. When I said, "Doesn't emerging research say the opposite?", > she said, "That applies to products manufactured fromsoyand flax > (e.g., isoflavones, flaxseed oil), not to the soybeans and flaxseed. [...] > Comments? Is she right? The various consituents would be known but I am not sure that the overall effect of the differences is really understood. The Australian Cancer Council report on soy notes that "studies vary as to whether they report on the following exposures: - Fermented vs non-fermented soy, - Total soy vs soy protein, - Dietary soy consumption vs urinary isoflavones" There is some discussion and links to some primary research for soy and omega-3 fatty acids (flax) as they relate to prostate cancer and links to credible reviews on my blog. Also there is a post on the 3 places on earth with highest longevity and 2 of the 3 have soy as part of their regular diet: Soy http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com/2007/02/soy.html Omega-3 Fatty Acids http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com/2007/02/omega-3-fatty-acids.html Longevity http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com/2007/02/longevity.html --- The Palpable Prostate http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com > there is a post on the 3 places on earth > with highest longevity and 2 of the 3 have soy as part of their > regular diet: I'd guess they also eat little meat; my dietitian should recognize them, as she actually visits some of these global regions with unique diets to observe them first hand; she's really into this stuff. Given that soy is purported to help prevent PC while exacerbating it once it begins, I wonder whether its preventative side, if any, is of any use to this club. As Steve Kramer points out, once we join the club, we're lifetime members; i.e., very, very few of us, if any, have no remaining PC "seedlings" in our bodies. Thanks for the links. I'll add 'em to my list of sources. I.P. On Feb 23, 12:03 pm, "I.P. Freely" <fuhgheddabou...@noway.nohow> wrote: > xuv...@gmail.com wrote: > > there is a post on the 3 places on earth > > with highest longevity and 2 of the 3 have soy as part of their > > regular diet: > > I'd guess they also eat little meat; my dietitian should recognize them, The diagram referenced in the Longevity post on my blog says that all three have a plant based diet. > as she actually visits some of these global regions with unique diets to > observe them first hand; she's really into this stuff. Given that soy is > purported to help prevent PC while exacerbating it once it begins, I I don't think your understanding of what is purported is correct. One study specifically showed benefit against PC progression in PC patients. See first link under Sources in the Soy post on my blog. The potential problems are as described in the Soy post on my blog. --- The Palpable Prostate http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com > I don't think your understanding of what is purported is correct. One > study > specifically showed benefit against PC progression in PC patients. > See first link under Sources in the Soy post on my blog. The > potential > problems are as described in the Soy post on my blog. I'm not referring to your blog; I haven't looked there yet. I'm referring to Ed, Matti, etc., who have shown some very convincing evidence that soy exacerbates PC. I.P. > xuv...@gmail.com wrote: > > I don't think your understanding of what is purported is correct. One [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > referring to Ed, Matti, etc., who have shown some very convincing > evidence that soy exacerbates PC. OK. Your message quoted mine and was listed as a reply to mine and there are no messages that I can see in this thread by anyone called Matti or Ed so perhaps some specific links to what you are intending to reference would help clarify your comments. > OK. Your message quoted mine and was listed as a reply to mine > and there are no messages that I can see in this thread by anyone > called Matti or Ed so perhaps some specific links to what you > are intending to reference would help clarify your comments. Once I get further along with this project I'll be posting much more info here. It's all piecemeal and far from complete now. Ed is a cancer researcher and math-modeler well-known to the PC research world and who often posts here, Matti is a cancer guru often on s.m.d.c., and there are a few other, similar such people we bow down to here who have discussed soy vs PC at length (and condemn its ingestion by PC patients), but not, to my knowledge, any differences between true soy foods and commercial stuff man makes from soy. The latter is much more likely to be at best stripped of its synergistic nutrients, at worst oxidized to the point of being laden with free radicals. And so far soy in general is emerging as food and encouragement for PC cell growth, as discussed far more elegantly and accurately a month or so ago here without distinction between soybeans and products manufactured from them. I.P. And it keeps getting more confusing. The s.m.d.c. gurus concurred that flax was a definite no-no for PC pts, yet at http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/11/021111065526.htm we see it praised as a benefit to us. The article is four years old whereas Matti et.al. decried flax just weeks ago; is this newer information? Who's got time to follow or sort out all the opposing viewpoints? We got lives to live -- often shortened ones at that -- and unless we get lucky and pick a blend of supplements that actually work, we've wasted more time than we'd ever get back. Soy and flax and Omega 3s are great for the cardiovascular system; why not just reach for a *known* benefit and hope we survive the cancer long enough to benefit from the cardiovascular improvement? I.P. > There is some discussion and links to some primary research for soy > and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The Palpable Prostate > http://palpable-prostate.blogspot.com Sorry to take so long to get to it, but glad I got there. Excellent resource, X*, especially in that it presents authoritative pro and con references [heh heh . . . it's like a Fox News Corp Medical Channel] plus bonus bottom line general conclusions. I'm sure my dietitian will appreciate these references, presuming she hasn't already reviewed them. When she discussed the regions with outstanding longevity (she has visited one or more of them), I suggested that maybe their soy diet is simply showing both sides of its face as gleaned from these and other references: it's probably protective until PC occurs, then harmful. And thanks for opening my eyes to the bright side of "bloggery". I have never visited any blogs, 'cause a) who's got time?, b) I presume most of them are unfiltered vanity diaries at best, misleading diatribes or even vitriol at worst, and biased all. Presuming yours has no axe to grind, it's refreshing, informative, and encouraging. Thanks for the pointer and the effort. * What's with these guys who hide behind made-up names? ;-) I.P. Freely > I just left a class taught by a very impressive dietitian. She has at > least one advanced degree in the field, follows the research closely, [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > I.P. As an avid soy milk drinker, I've been watching this controversy with great interest. Your dietician/speaker's explanation makes the most sense of anything I've read; it's logical but is there also research to back it up? Also, which soy products are supposed to be helpful and which harmful? Anyway, great entry, I.P. Thanks. > As an avid soy milk drinker, I've been watching this controversy with > great interest. Your dietician/speaker's explanation makes the most > sense of anything I've read; it's logical but is there also research > to back it up? She's asked me to provide references for my soy concerns, and I've asked her to provide references for her approval of minimally-processed soy foods for PC pts. With luck we'll meet at the OK Corral next week. > Also, which soy products are supposed to be helpful and which > harmful? a. The balance of the literature concurs that soy products in general are of little special benefit to anyone, that its ship sailed upon the arrival of significant studies, that at best it's just another option in the food pyramid with no magical qualities. (We're talking the modern world; it may still be a fine source of protein in third world societies.) b. The tide is swinging -- the sharpest tacks in a.s.c.p. and s.m.d.c. say it done swung -- to the conclusion that soy exacerbates existing PCa (which any dude over, what? . . . 40? . . . probably has at some level). c. Soy beans and Soy Silk and tofu made from fresh minimally processed soy may be sufficiently unprocessed to still be considered *food* rather than just some crap a company manufactured from raw materials extracted from a soy plant (think: most supermarket bread and wheat). d. Until I've researched it further (I sure wish some of our experts like Ed or Leonard would respond; maybe Matti and/or his peers in s.m.d.c will soon), I'm not going out of my way to eat soy. I.P. > I> > So I was surprised when she said soy and flax were good even for PCa [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > Comments? Is she right? What do you mean by isoflavones being manufactured? I eat edamames (boiled Japanese soybeans in the pod), and the label says they contain isoflavones. It's part of the vegetable. I think. Anyway, for me the proof is in the pudding: Michael Milken. I have read a number of times that he followed a heavily soy-weighted diet. Here's something that was mentioned here: "There is also the legendary story of Michael Milken who in 1993, at age 46, was diagnosed with prostate cancer (PSA 24, Gleason 9, spread to lymph nodes). Along with radiation and hormone therapy (as I recall) he changed to a vegetarian, soy-based ultra low fat diet (no more than 10 grams a day), including other modalities such as meditation and massage. He has had undetectable PSA levels since." Leah >> I> >> So I was surprised when she said soy and flax were good even for PCa [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > more than 10 grams a day), including other modalities such as > meditation and massage. He has had undetectable PSA levels since." All that proves about soy is that it is not always fatal within 14 years. I.P. >> I> >> So I was surprised when she said soy and flax were good even for PCa [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (boiled Japanese soybeans in the pod), and the label says they contain > isoflavones. It's part of the vegetable. I think. In this case, I mean "separated from by significant processing". Plants contain hundreds of compounds, and extracting/isolating some of them a) isolates them from the synergistic compounds Mother Nature "deliberately" packaged them with and b) often involves heat or chemicals that alter the plant or its "manufactured products". Man doesn't *know* what the hell he's doing when he breaks down plants into their hundreds of compounds, and food manufacturers don't *care*. That's why what your supermarket calls "wheat bread" or "7-grains bread" or "high fiber 20-grain whole health superbread" is just so much white bread (i.e., sugar) plus a few chemicals they put back in the product to fulfill government requirements and dupe buyers into thinking it's healthy because it's brown and contains the word "what" somewhere on its label. Understand this: it is not whole grain. Similarly, very, very few chemicals extracted/isolated from plants function in the way Mother Nature intended. > Anyway, for me the proof is in the pudding: Michael Milken. I have > read a number of times that he followed a heavily soy-weighted diet. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > more than 10 grams a day), including other modalities such as > meditation and massage. He has had undetectable PSA levels since." All that proves about soy is that it is not always fatal within 14 years. I.P.
|
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.