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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2007More on soy and prostate cancer
It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy: http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegraph/story/0,,21054484-5001021,00.html Ed Friedman >It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy: > >http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegraph/story/0,,21054484-5001021,00.html > >Ed Friedman A very interesting article. I don't care for soy so it will never be an issue for me, but I bet we have some vegetarians in the group that will be impacted should they choose to follow this advice. Mike Diagnosed with PCa 11/2006 at age 55 PSA 13.8 Gleason 6 (3+3) T1c da Vinci RLRP planned for Feb 2007 Seeing the world in a whole new light! >>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mike Over a year ago, Ed posted on a study that, I think, he was doing with this information in a much more detailed and scientific form. It was enough to lead me to stop using the soy products I had added to my diet. >>>It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy: >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > information in a much more detailed and scientific form. It was enough to > lead me to stop using the soy products I had added to my diet. Claude, Acutally, I wrote over a year ago that, based on my model for prostate cancer, in theory, large amounts of soy would make prostate cancer grow more rapidly. I'm glad to see that the article I just cited mentions soy as being bad for both prostate cancer and breast cancer, since the breast cancer model I'm working on now predicts exactly that as well. Ed Friedman Ed, the article talks about phytoestrogens as being the culprit; should we also avoid prostate health supplements that contain soy isoflavones? Bill Denton RP 2/12/02 PSA 1.10 Memphis > Ed, the article talks about phytoestrogens as being the culprit; should > we also avoid prostate health supplements that contain soy isoflavones? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > PSA 1.10 > Memphis Bill, According to my model, large amounts of any phytoestrogens that bind to ER-beta preferentially should increase the growth rate of existing prostate cancer. On the other hand, those that bind prefentially to ER-alpha will decrease the growth rate. To date, the only one I know that binds preferentially to ER-alpha is resveratrol. But it binds with an affinity ~1000 times less than estradiol does, so you would need an awful lot of it to see real results. Ed Friedman >It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy: > >http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegraph/story/0,,21054484-5001021,00.html > >Ed Friedman A comment from a reader of that article that conveys my feelings about this issue: "Thats bloody it ! Don't eat this but you should eat that but then 5 minutes later don't eat that ! I am now going to just eat bloody grass!" Posted by: Virginia of Penrith 9:02pm January 14, 2007 More interesting comments from another reader: " I read with great disappointment about the rather large and scary headline concerning soy products and the link to breast and prostate cancer. In checking the Cancer Council web site I could not find any statement (although it may appear this Monday). However I found an interesting article written in December on this subject (see link below). If one takes the time to read carefully, it is clear that there are more questions than answers and certainly no clinical evidence that soy products inhibit or worsen breast or prostate cancer. However the article makes it clear that there are (albeit small) benefits in consuming soy products. More over whole grain and legumes have equally high quantity of phytoestrogens (isoflavones). It is unlikely that many of your readers will spend the time to read the Cancer Council's article (or yours for that matter) but likely that many will over react to your headline and do more harm than good by cutting soy products from their diet and that of their children. Article covering food and diet (particularly mainstream) are too important to be included in the usual headline-grabbing articles. It would be helpful to have a more balanced approach to such important topics. Jerry http://www.cancercouncil.com.au/editorial.asp?pageid=256 Posted by: Jerry Willimann of Frenchs Forest 6:31pm January 14, 2007 >It appears that the mainstream is starting to agree with my view on soy: > >http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegraph/story/0,,21054484-5001021,00.html > >Ed Friedman I'm sorry, but I am confused by this. This article talks more about the effects of soy consumption on breast cancer in women than it does about prostate cancer in men. I infer that the evidence cited in this study icomes from animal or petri dish studies rather than clinical studies in humans. How dependable is that? What about the number of published studies on the effect of soy consumption on PSA levels in men with prostate camcer? These studeies, as I recall, show reductions in doubling time or decreases in PSA levels in these men. Or, what about the recent report by Dr. Dean Ornish that men treated for PCa who eat low-fat, vegetarian diets have lower incidents of cancer recurrence? Surely, soy was a significant component of the diets of these men. Is this article saying its OK to consume small or moderate amounts of soy (which will cause no harm or could even provide benefits if the clinical studies are to be believed) but its not OK to consume huge amounts of soy? My question is (as a survivor of PCa) how much soy can you eat or should you eat? > My question is (as a survivor of PCa) how much soy > can you eat or should you eat? I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected. Is this Denny D, PhD?  SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected. How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC? Every new report I read about soy shakes its superpower myth ever further. I.P. >> I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected. > > How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC? > > Every new report I read about soy shakes its superpower myth ever further. Now you're taxing my Luproned brain. If I remember correctly, soy is good for the prostate. It helps prostate cells grow and multiply. However, it also helps cancerous prostate cells grow and multiply. Ergo, good before dx, bad after dx. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > "I.P. Freely" wrote. >> >>> I think the point made was soy is not good AFTER PCa has been detected. >> How would a biopsy change soy's effect on PC? > If I remember correctly, soy is good for the prostate. It helps prostate > cells grow and multiply. However, it also helps cancerous prostate cells > grow and multiply. Ergo, good before dx, bad after dx. Not "good before dx" if you have CANCER before dx. I.P. >> "I.P. Freely" wrote. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Not "good before dx" if you have CANCER before dx. I was trying to answer the why before and not after dx question, but, of course you're right about the cancer. It is best to stop taking soy two years before any prostate cancer diagnosis. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > It is best to stop taking soy two years before any prostate cancer > diagnosis. I'll remember that in my next life. > Is this article saying its OK to consume small or moderate amounts of > soy (which will cause no harm or could even provide benefits if the > clinical studies are to be believed) but its not OK to consume huge > amounts of soy? My question is (as a survivor of PCa) how much soy > can you eat or should you eat? Dennis, You ask an excellent question, but I'm afraid that there is no clearcut answer as of yet. What I do know is that if lots of soy (or any other phytoestrogen than binds preferentially to ER-beta) in conjunction with a 5AR2 inhibitor, such as finasteride (F), then there is a dramatic increase in PSA for men with prostate cancer (PCa). This was observed by Dr. Leibowitz (http://http://www.prostatepointers.org/leibowitz/vitaminlist.10103.html). My model (http://www.tbiomed.com/content/2/1/10) explains this as being due to the intracellular androgen receptor (iAR) downregulating bcl-2. If you use F and reduce the DHT present, the T present binds to iAR with an affinity 5 times less than DHT does, so you will end up with less downregulation of bcl-2, hence more bcl-2 being present. If you block ER-beta with anything less that is less than fully agonistic, then you also will have more bcl-2 present because ER-beta also downregulates bcl-2. If you aren't taking 5AR2 inhibitors, then you are less likely to see any negative effects from soy. Anecdotally, I have heard from one man whose PSA went from 2.5 to 17.5 in 18 months. When his PSA was 2.5, he started on a program of soy milk with every meal and flaxseed for every breakfast. When his PSA reached 17.5, they did a biopsy and discovered PCa. Even though he was taking no 5AR2 inhibitors, this massive change in his diet obviously sped up the growth of the cancer cells already present in his prostate. The interesting thing from my model is that if you don't have any PCa cells in your body, then large amounts of soy will actually prevent PCa. This is because the first step in PCa, telemorase activity, requires E2 to bind to a ER-alpha/beta heterodimer. The genistein in soy interferes with this happening by binding the the ER-beta part of the heterodimer. Also, genestein has been shown to have some anti-cancer properties that are totally independent of its binding to estrogen receptors. Ed Friedman > if you don't have any PCa > cells in your body, then large amounts of soy will actually prevent PCa. Should we assume this rules out virtually every male in this forum? I.P. >> if you don't have any PCa cells in your body, then large amounts of >> soy will actually prevent PCa. > > Should we assume this rules out virtually every male in this forum? > > I.P. I.P., In practice, I would rule out all men over 30, unless they were raised in an environment where they have had lots of soy virtually every day since childhood. However, as I said before, if you aren't taking 5AR2 inhibitors, then moderate amounts of soy should be no problem. Ed Friedman I'm now down to deeper and deeper levels of knowledge available on the net regarding prostate cancer. I'm currently lost in the funhouse that is PubMed. My question is what are these different types of prostate cancer cell lines? (LNCaP, CWR22, PC3, and DU145) From my menial laymans perspective, different therapies and regimens perhaps should be followed depending on which cancer cell line we're talking about. Again, I know its all just petrie dish research which may produce a completely different result when taken internally and travelled the long local bus ride from our mouths to the pCa cells within our bodies, wherever they may be. Like Steve K. says, knowledge is power WSF > Like Steve K. says, knowledge is power Thanks for the cite, but I believe that is Curtis. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum On Jan 26, 1:29 pm, "WhiteSoxFan" <leica...@comcast.net> wrote...snip... > My question is what are these different types of prostate > cancer cell lines? (LNCaP, CWR22, PC3, and DU145) From my menial > laymans perspective, different therapies and regimens perhaps should be > followed depending on which cancer cell line we're talking about. WSF...Way back when, they took some cells from a mouse or a human prostate tumor and established a cell line. They did this from sveral tumors in different mice and men. The cells continued to divide and grow in number in the lab incubators. Cells are sent to other labs for experimentation. Again they continue to divide and grow in numbers. Samples from some of these lines have now divided so many times - with further mutation along the way - that they probably bare little genetic resemblance to the original cells. Nonetheless, they continue to be used in various experiments. If I recall correctly, the LNCaP line is used as a model for androgen independent PCa. BTW, the same exact thing is going on now with stem cells. So you are absolutley correct in that there is a strong genetic component to PCa. One man's PCa cells might easily succumb to one type of treatment, while another man's PCa cells may be resistant to that treatment. They are beginning to tailor breast cancer treatment depending upon your genetic make up. I suspect that will start to happen with PCa not too far down the road...Best wishes and good health, ron > I'm now down to deeper and deeper levels of knowledge available on the > net regarding prostate cancer. I'm currently lost in the funhouse that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > long local bus ride from our mouths to the pCa cells within our bodies, > wherever they may be. Like Steve K. says, knowledge is power Until we run out of brain bits and spare time. I.P. Just wondering. Aren't the Japanese and other asian men supposed to be less prone to prostate cancer because they eat more soy and less red meat than westerners? I'm sure I've read several articles indicating their prostate cancer risk increases with a western diet.
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