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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2006

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The value of the modified Gleason grading system of prostate    adenocarc

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c palmer - 05 Dec 2006 10:33 GMT
The value of the modified Gleason grading system of prostate
adenocarcinoma in routine urological diagnostics

[Article in German]

Helpap B, Egevad L.
Konsultationsdienst fur Uropathologie, Institut fur Pathologie, Singen.

In several consensus conferences of the International Society of
Urological Pathology (ISUP), the Gleason grading system of prostatic
carcinomas was modified and adapted to the routine histological
diagnostics of specimens of core needle biopsies and radical
prostatectomies. The main results are the documentation of all
histological patterns (primary, secondary, tertiary) and a shifting of
the maximal Gleason score of biopsies from 6 to 7a (3+4) and of radical
prostatectomies from 6 and 7 to7a and 7b (4+3). Score 2 to 4 carcinomas
do not exist in the peripheral prostate. pT2 prostatic carcinomas with
good prognosis have a maximal score of 7a; pT3 carcinomas with poor
prognosis have a most frequent score of 7b. The agreement of the Gleason
scores of core needle biopsies and radical prostatectomy specimens is
more than 80%. Inter- and intraobserver reproducibility is better than
after the conventional Gleason grading.

The prognostic value of scores 6 and 7a may be similar. The border
between low- and high-grade prostatic carcinoma may be probably Gleason
score 7a and 7b. The prognostic value of score 6 should be changed to
score 7a in the different therapeutic options for prostatic carcinomas.

PMID: 17111167 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Nov 27 2006 08:22:25

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
KenA - 06 Dec 2006 06:15 GMT
Just under 1 year post-LRRP and got a 0.04 on today's PSA test. I had 3-4 PSA tests
that were 'undetectable' during this past year, but this time (same lab, same Dr.)
said it was 0.04. He also scheduled me for a re-test in 3 months, rather than 6
months. Do I take this as a possible bad sign?
Thanks.
KenA
c palmer - 06 Dec 2006 08:54 GMT
From: kabrahamsen@comcast.net (KenA)
Just under 1 year post-LRRP and got a 0.04 on today's PSA test. I had
3-4 PSA tests that were 'undetectable' during this past year, but this
time (same lab, same Dr.) said it was 0.04. He also scheduled me for a
re-test in 3 months, rather than 6 months. Do I take this as a possible
bad sign?
Thanks.
KenA

=====> not really.  i was tested every 90 days for the first two years.
i'm now 3 1/2 years post op and still getting tested every 6 months.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
KenA - 12 Dec 2006 05:01 GMT
I've also wondered how much should I be concerned that in the last 3 months my PSA
has gone from undetectable to 0.04.
As per: http://www.phoenix5.org/Basics/psaPostSurgery.html
"On a technical level, in the laboratory, Chan trusts the sensitivity of assays down
to 0. 1, or slightly less than that. ''You cannot reliably detect such a small amount
as 0.01,'' he explains. ''From day to day, the results could vary -- it could be
0.03, or maybe even 0.05'' -- and these ''analytical'' variations may not mean a
thing. ''It's important that we don't assume anything or take action on a very low
level of PSA. In routine practice, because of these analytical variations from day to
day, if it's less than 0. 1, we assume it's the same as nondetectable, or zero.''

I know it's currently still quite low, but for me it's still a surprising jump in
only 3 months.
I feel like it's going to be a nerve-racking next 3-6 months for the follow-up PSA
tests to see if there's a PSA velocity that's high.
Ken!
================================================
> From: kabrahamsen@comcast.net (KenA)
> Just under 1 year post-LRRP and got a 0.04 on today's PSA test. I had
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
c palmer - 12 Dec 2006 09:11 GMT
From: kabrahamsen@comcast.net (KenA)
I've also wondered how much should I be concerned that in the last 3
months my PSA has gone from undetectable to 0.04.
As per: http://www.phoenix5.org/Basics/psaPostSurgery.html "On a
technical level, in the laboratory, Chan trusts the sensitivity of
assays down to 0. 1, or slightly less than that. ''You cannot reliably
detect such a small amount as 0.01,'' he explains. ''From day to day,
the results could vary -- it could be 0.03, or maybe even 0.05'' -- and
these ''analytical'' variations may not mean a thing. ''It's important
that we don't assume anything or take action on a very low level of PSA.
In routine practice, because of these analytical variations from day to
day, if it's less than 0. 1, we assume it's the same as nondetectable,
or zero.''
I know it's currently still quite low, but for me it's still a
surprising jump in only 3 months.
I feel like it's going to be a nerve-racking next 3-6 months for the
follow-up PSA tests to see if there's a PSA velocity that's high. Ken!
==================================

hi ken - your last statement says it all and it is going to haunt you
for the rest of your life when you get your psa test ran.   i call it
the 'psa jitters'.  happens about a couple of weeks before the test is
due and then when you get your resutls,  you breathe a sigh of relief
and then, the anxiousness goes away until the next time.

while there is truth in the 'white noise' of the psa, it seems that the
opinions are as different as there are people on what the bottom cutoff
should be so as to rule out false positives.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
RR - 13 Dec 2006 06:26 GMT
Yes - I just spend a nervous 24 hours waiting until I spoke to my Uro.
20 month after RP - PSA went for 0.01 to 0.04
which alarmed me.
It turns out that I used a different lab and there could be
minor variation between different labs.
It would be advisable to use the same one

RR

>From: kabrahamsen@comcast.net (KenA)
>I've also wondered how much should I be concerned that in the last 3
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
>http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Steve Kramer - 12 Dec 2006 10:42 GMT
> I've also wondered how much should I be concerned that in the last 3
> months my PSA has gone from undetectable to 0.04.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I feel like it's going to be a nerve-racking next 3-6 months for the
> follow-up PSA tests to see if there's a PSA velocity that's high.

To me, it seems fairly obvious that the smaller the amount (in this case
4/100ths of a nanogram) the less accurate the measurement relative to the
amount.  Imagine a gallon of swirling water with sand in it and you have a
cup that can reliably capture all the sand in the swath you take with the
cup.  Can you rely on better on the sample you take out of the water with
lots of sand or the one with a little.  In either case, I'd wager that if
you did it over and over, you'd find that the amounts differ, but with
respect to the total, the amount will differ less with the water with the
greater amount of sand.

I imagine in fact that the amount of difference is the same.  When I had a
0.75, it might have actually be a 0.751 one time or a 0.754 another.  Now
that I am a 0.04, a new PSA of 0,01 would look great to me, but would
probably be of little significance.
KenA - 14 Dec 2006 03:31 GMT
>> I've also wondered how much should I be concerned that in the last 3 months my PSA
>> has gone from undetectable to 0.04.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> a new PSA of 0,01 would look great to me, but would probably be of little
> significance.
I just thought I'd update this with the fact that my surgeon's office called me
yesterday afternoon to say that their lab had problems, so they subsequently sent my
blood draw out to another (unspecified) lab for a high sensitivity test and these
results came back 'undetectable' by this second lab. So, it seems like the first
reported PSA rise was indeed a lab error. Just thought I'd mention this as evidence
that labs *do* make mistakes or have their equipment malfunction/go out of
calibration. However, the whole incident was quite nerve racking.
KenA
Steve Kramer - 14 Dec 2006 11:40 GMT
> yesterday afternoon to say that their lab had problems, so they
> subsequently sent my blood draw out to another (unspecified) lab for a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> mistakes or have their equipment malfunction/go out of calibration.
> However, the whole incident was quite nerve racking.

I am happy to here about the result.  I can certainly imagine the nerve
racking.  But, let's just say, "one year after surgery and still
undetectable."

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

 
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