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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2006

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urinary flow 13 days post RRP

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mountainguy1958 - 01 Dec 2006 21:13 GMT
I had my prostate removed at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center on
11/17, at age 48, by Dr. James Eastham. I have nothing but wonderful
things to say about the attentive and compassionate care that I
received from the nursing staff there, and from what I can tell Dr.
Eastham did a good job. I'll know better as time passes. The pathology
report looked good.

Since surgery, I've had good days and bad ones, in terms of urinary
flow. One night I was concerned enough about possible urinary retention
(being unable to pee) that I called MSKCC twice for advice. By morning,
the flow had returned, so the alarm was called off. Over the last
couple of days, though, the amount of control that I had regained seems
to have diminished. I wet the bed last night, despite wearing a pad. My
wife very kindly, without complaining, changed the sheets. However, in
the morning my underpants were again soaked with urine (through a pad).
Fortunately, this time I had been sleping on my back, so it didn't hit
the sheets.

I've been doing Kegels as many times a day as I can remember to do
them... probably eight or ten times a day. I'm feeling discouraged and
depressed about what seems to be my slow recovery.

How long can I expect this to take?

Catheter came out this past Monday, which was a great relief at the
time. However, I don't know which is worse... wearing the Foley or
wetting the bed! I've resumed the walking practices that I've had for
the last two years. The day the catheter came out I walked two miles.
Yesterday I walked three and a half. Typically, I like to walk between
three and six miles a day. Have I been overdoing it at the pace
described above?

Sexually, I've had a few indications that the nerve sparing was
successful. On the day the catheter came out I was able to masturbate
to a very intense orgasm (left me out of breath), with a very slight
erection (call it a 3 on a 10-point scale). Since then, not much; but
at least that give me hope.

After the episode the other night of being unable to urinate, after
consulting with my local urologist, I resumed taking the 8 mg. of
Cardura that I had been taking prior to surgery for BPH. I had
discontinued it thinking that BPH would no longer be an issue since I
no longer have a prostate. However, I asked the doctor if he thought it
might be helpful in regulating my urine flow by action on the bladder.
He agreed that it might, adding that it couldn't hurt anything, so go
ahead and take it. Now I'm wondering if the Cardura isn't hurting my
control by perhaps relaxing the bladder neck too much. Anybody have any
experience with this?

Thanks.
RML - 01 Dec 2006 22:59 GMT
You have only had the cath out 4 days. Be more patient. My progress
was 2 steps forward then 1 back. Don't do too many kegels. It will tax
the muscles and not help. I would do about 10 reps/3x day. I think by
the 2nd to 3rd week you will see a great improvement. I did.

Generally speaking, despite exercise/kegels/masturbation being good,
the more taxed your body gets the more you leak.

>I had my prostate removed at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center on
>11/17, at age 48, by Dr. James Eastham. I have nothing but wonderful
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
>Thanks.
glassman - 02 Dec 2006 00:30 GMT
>I had my prostate removed at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center on
> 11/17, at age 48, by Dr. James Eastham. I have nothing but

  The first few days can be like a garden hose with a broken valve. It's
weird that you were leaking while laying down though.  Even though it took
me months to get dry, I never leaked in bed even once. Your early
masterbation is a very good sign alright.

Signature

JK Sinrod
www.SinrodStudios.com
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com

Jean - 02 Dec 2006 01:03 GMT
As far as Kegels are concerned, my husband was advised by his surgeon to do
two sets per day, one upon waking up and one just before going to sleep.  He
was told to do 20 reps, holding for 5 seconds and relaxing for 10 seconds
between each one.  Any more than that will only cause fatigue in the muscle
instead of helping.

Good luck,

Jean
tchtic@yahoo.com - 02 Dec 2006 01:10 GMT
> As far as Kegels are concerned, my husband was advised by his surgeon to do
> two sets per day,

Anyone know if Kegels will help guys with orgasms?   I've heard that
some women do them to enhance their experience.   OK, I'll admit that
years ago, I had a girlfriend who was really into the quality of her
orgasms.  She did Kegels as way to tone up and claimed they helped her.

Then she'd show off by pinching my pecker while it was in her pocket.

-kh
mountainguy1958 - 02 Dec 2006 11:46 GMT
For what it's worth, here's someone who says they do:
http://sexuality.about.com/od/anatomyresponse/ht/kegelsmen.htm

Thanks to all who replied on this thread.

> Anyone know if Kegels will help guys with orgasms?   I've heard that
> some women do them to enhance their experience.   OK, I'll admit that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -kh
Eddiegr - 02 Dec 2006 01:06 GMT
Try also Depends underwear with "Boosts" insert. On top of  all that,
wear "tighty whitey" underwear to keep everything close to your body.
Prevail makes a square pad that you can put on the bed, that will
protect the sheets.
I was pretty much uncontrolled the first week, also, but you should
improve rapidly, at least to the point where you can move around
without changing pads every hour.
I'm 13 weeks post surgery, and use about 2 pads per 24 hours.
I know, it's hard being patient.
I.P. Freely - 02 Dec 2006 01:18 GMT
> I had my prostate removed on 11/17
SNIP

> How long can I expect this to take?

Two words: 11/17 "THIS YEAR?"

If pads don't cut it, wear diapers. My surgeon thought I'd be dry in
days to weeks. Instead, I needed diapers for 18 months before trusting
big triangular pads. I'm still in them at 25 months.

I've wet the bed 3-4 times, twice in the first month of two, once at
maybe a year post-op. By about 14-16 months I finally trusted myself
enough to remove the 2x3' incontinence pad I slept on.

My case is on the far side of the bell curve, but you're not even
approaching the near side of the bell curve yet.

Soooo, get back to us in the middle of NEXT YEAR. If you're still wet
then, you may have a problem. Until then it's neither surprising nor
alarming.

I.P.
David&Joan - 02 Dec 2006 02:07 GMT
----- Original Message -----
From: "mountainguy1958" <mountainguy1958@gmail.com>

>Now I'm wondering if the Cardura isn't hurting my
> control by perhaps relaxing the bladder neck too much.

I thought that RP destroys the sphincter at the neck of the bladder. So, if
it no longer exists, the drug should have no effect.

It is the sphincter downstream of the prostate that we rely upon for
continence after a prostatectomy. It seems to be a muscle like any other and
if you are physically tired from exertion, the muscle will be tired as well
and not in control. Over time the muscle learns its new (or expanded) role
and starts to work. For me it took 2-3 weeks. For others, many months.

Good luck,

David
Prospector - 03 Dec 2006 22:28 GMT
> I had my prostate removed at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center on
> 11/17, at age 48, by Dr. James Eastham. I have nothing but wonderful
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Thanks.

G'Day
I am 5 months post op, and almost continent.. good advise previously
about the Keigel's.. don't ovedue.. you could be weakening the muscles
your trying to build up.
Obviously, watch your fluid intakes, prior to bed.. after 7.. and a tip
that I find works well to prevent leakage from anything you wear, use a
jock strap to hold we willy in place so the pads have a chance to catch
the fluids.. if I leak, it's because the raskel got out from under the
blanket.. not making light of the situation, but things really do
improve dramatically for the vast majority of us.. the odds are all in
you favour..
Good look, and hang in there.. be patient

Thankful and Greatful to be alive..
Steve Kramer - 04 Dec 2006 01:48 GMT
> G'Day
> I am 5 months post op, and almost continent.. good advise previously
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thankful and Greatful to be alive..

G'Day, Cliff.  Glad to see you back.  How did that first PSA come out?

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
PSA <0.04
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Prospector - 05 Dec 2006 02:26 GMT
> > G'Day
> > I am 5 months post op, and almost continent.. good advise previously
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > Thankful and Greatful to be alive..

> G'Day, Cliff.  Glad to see you back.  How did that first PSA come out?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> PSA <0.04
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Steve..
The first PSA in August was non detectable, and the second results I
get on Dec 18th..
Things are going well.. don't expect any surprises on this one.
I have started my Vitamin "V" regime, and had an interesting side
affect.
Have been playing squash for many weeks, with no issues, but when I
played tonight after taking a "V" pill last night, I had significantly
less stamina, and got oveheated, at squash that is. I was wondering if
any other members have had unusual side affects after taking Viagra..
during strenuous exercise, other than sex.

Cliff
Claude - 05 Dec 2006 03:37 GMT
>> > G'Day
>> > I am 5 months post op, and almost continent.. good advise previously
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Cliff

The usual for me---flushing of the face, stuffiness of the nose, and
sometimes heartburn.  With regard to your symptoms---remember Viagra was
developed as a drug to lower blood pressure---which I imagine it does.
Perhaps that's what caused your symptoms.
Mike Denver - 05 Dec 2006 01:08 GMT
I remember when you got your diagnosis and wanted to have robotic surgery,
was your RRP robotic?

On the pee thing, it took me 3 months.  I had an RRP in June of this year
and I started with a gusher then I leveled off to 1 pad a day after about 6
weeks then in 6 more weeks I took a trip to Italy and was dry the week after
I got back.  It seemed to me that all of the sudden I was ready to be dry
and I just went the weekend with out wearing a pad then went to work on
Monday with a pad in my back pocket and just kept going.  Sometimes at the
end of the day a drop will come out if I laugh but that is rare because I've
been dry since September.  I do still get a little anxious from time to time
but I think it is mostly in my head.  I walk and exercise a lot, which I
think does more good than the Kegals.  I started out doing the Kegals every
chance I got then I realized I could feel a lot of discomfort in that area
so I backed off and listened to my body.  I found that in the morning I felt
the strongest so I did a kegal then and went for a morning walk about 1.5
miles and could stay pretty dry.  Then during the day at work I would do a
Kegal set at lunch and another 1.5 miles of walking.  I found that a nice
pace took about 30 minutes.  Then back home for another 1.5 miles and the
last Kegal set while watching TV.  I found that I was pretty darn wet on the
evening walk and ready to lay down and watch TV in the evening.  That is
when I would change my pad, then I did not leak much until the next days
activity level jumped up.  My Kegal set consisted of 3 sets of 10 holding
for 10 seconds with 10 seconds rest between each kegal, then I finished up
with 1 set of 10 1 second hard kegals.  After I dried up I do 1 set of ten
if I don't get any other exercise in that day.  Hope this helps, hang in
there chances are you will start getting better soon and listen to your
body.

I go for my 6 month checkup and PSA this month.

Mike

>I had my prostate removed at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center on
> 11/17, at age 48, by Dr. James Eastham. I have nothing but wonderful
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Thanks.
mountainguy1958 - 05 Dec 2006 14:30 GMT
Hi Mike.

Thanks for the reply, as well as to the others who replied on this
thread.

True, as you say, when I was first dx I posted here that based on what
I had heard and read to that point, I "*much* preferred" robotic
surgery. However, the more I read and the more doctors I spoke with, I
began to question this technological prejudice. More specifically, I
met with two local urologists (my present and former doctors, who work
in competing practices in the same town) to discuss RRP options. Both
said they regularly perform robotic and open procedures at Westchester
Medical Center and local hospitals upstate. Both cautioned against
leaning too firmly toward the robot based solely on anectdotal reports
and marketing information provided either by the manufacturer or by
surgeons who have a need to justify the investment. They each told me
separately pretty much the same thing: that robotic surgery is a
promising laproscopic technique, and in the hands of an excellent
surgeon may produce yield results; but that robotic surgery is simply
laparoscopic surgery using a new tool. I then met with a radiation
oncologist who, of course, recommended radiation. After that, I then
with a medical oncologist whom I knew from a prior unrelated consult a
few years ago, looking for an unbiased opinion from a general cancer
doctor whose practice involves almost no surgery or radiation. After a
lengthy and detailed almost classroom-style lecture on the subject of
prostate cancer, citing probabilities and percentages, she ended with
the conclusion that the odds of me living a long and cancer-free life
would be slightly but significantly better if I were to have an RRP as
opposed to some form of radiation tx. Asked about robotic or open, her
reply was that there isn't enough evidence-based research to allow her
to make a recommendation on which tool is preferable, and I should
address that question to the surgeon.

My wife and I then went down to Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
for a pre-surgical consult with Dr. James Eastham. I selected Dr.
Eastham based on a recommendation that he was an eminently skilled
urological surgeon specializing in prostate cancer, who was equally
skilled and comfortable using a robot as he was with a scalpel. We came
away from the meeting feeling that this recommendation was born out by
our impression of his presentation. When, at the end of the
consultation, I posed the question of which tool he recommended --
robot or scalpel -- consistent with the others, he replied that he
could go either way, and there was no clear and convincing evidence
that he would recommend as strong and evidence-based supporting robotic
techniques, though a number of surgeons and patients have reported
excellent results with the robot. To my surprise, he then commented
that in his practice, the patients who tend to recover most quickly
from side-effects are those who had conventional open anatomic surgery.
I expressed dismay at this, remarking that it seemed contrary to the
"media hype" that I had read and seen. He smiled slightly agreed that
he thought I had chosen an appropriate phrase. He closed with the
statement that if I wanted to try the robot, he was confident of his
skill with the robot, and the important thing he was recommending was
that I have RRP surgery. As others before him had said, by this point I
had become convinced that what really mattered more than the selection
of the tool was the skill of the craftsman using the said tool. Having
chosen Dr. Eastham, I thought it was best to accept his
recommendations, allowing him to use the tool of his choice. He chose a
scalpel.

I remain as confident in Dr. Eastham's expertise as I was the first day
we met with him. I believe he performed well in the OR, though I won't
know for sure about side-effects for a while. I only had surgery on
11/17/2006 and am just starting to recover. The bottom line, I think,
is that I put my trust in God and in a surgeon that I had chose based
on his reputation for the surgical care he provides, not in a
particular surgical instrument or device. Having done this, I allowed
myself to follow his instincts and consented to the open procedure.

Thanks.

Tom

> I remember when you got your diagnosis and wanted to have robotic surgery,
> was your RRP robotic?
* * *
Beverley - 05 Dec 2006 18:40 GMT
In the meantime for $10 (USD) go to Sears and in the linen department they
sell a mattress protector that is flocked. It's completely washable and it
does work. (Use it under the sheet not on top.)
Bev

> I had my prostate removed at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center on
> 11/17, at age 48, by Dr. James Eastham. I have nothing but wonderful
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> Thanks.
I.P. Freely - 05 Dec 2006 19:03 GMT
> In the meantime for $10 (USD) go to Sears and in the linen department they
> sell a mattress protector that is flocked. It's completely washable and it
> does work. (Use it under the sheet not on top.)

I used mine on top of the sheets. It stayed in place quite well, and
averted a couple of midnight bedding changes.

I.P.
 
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