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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / December 2006does removal of the prostate affect hormones like testosterone?
i am experiencing symptoms similar to before i started taking supplements to improve my mood, which in turn, relaxed me, resulting in more energy and strength. since my surgery, my mood has lowered and i am getting more muscle tension and spazem. i know that there was dht (testosterone) in the prostate. could there be a shift in the hormonal balance which is causing more tension? gary > i am experiencing symptoms similar to before i started taking > supplements to improve my mood, which in turn, relaxed me, resulting in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > gary Hi Gary...Walsh did a small study on this question. He drew blood from men prior to RP and then, again, a year later. He found... "Radical prostatectomy influences the hypothalamic pituitary axis by increasing serum testosterone, percent free testosterone, estradiol, LH and FSH while decreasing serum DHT levels. These findings suggest that the sexual dysfunction associated with radical prostatectomy cannot be explained by androgen deficiency alone. These data further suggest that the normal prostate and/or prostate neoplasm could secrete a substance or substances that give negative feedback control to pituitary gonadotropin secretion. Further investigation is warranted to identify this substance or substances." ...Best wishes and good health, ron Hello again Gary-- > i since my surgery, my mood has lowered and i > am getting more muscle tension and spazem. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > gary All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate removed. It is normal and it will take time for you to work it out. In the meantime, I suggest you see a mental health professional for psychotherapy and you might also benefit from mood lifting drugs. My guess is that depression and anxiety are causing your low mood and muscle tension. If you need help finding somebody just email me: lfcjjk@aol.com. My husband started seeing a therapist (social worker) after his diagnosis and it has been a godsend. He needed somebody to talk to because he is a very reserved person and it is hard even to discuss this illness with your intimates. My husb also started taking effexor (an antidepressant) and he said it saved his life. Now he is doing very well and is very upbeat but in the beginning everybody needs some help. A lot of men go to counseling but they don't advertise it. Ideally proper treatment for RP should require mandatory psych and sexual counseling after the surgery because recovery is an ongoing process. Good luck. Leah. > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > removed. It is normal I was going to let that slide, thinking it didn't matter. But if it misleads Gary into assuming emotional distress -- particularly his level thereof -- really is unavoidable, he might not pursue it to diagnosis and resolution. If his cause is treatable and/or significant, his inaction could lead to unnecessary misery or even additional problems. As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were: "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.", "HAH!! I KNEW I was smart to retire at 45 in case I don't live forever.", "We knew SOMETHING would end the fun; guess it may be PC.", and "OK . . . what are my options?". Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing. So Gary needs to look a little further, because a significant emotional reaction to cancer -- especially a likely END to same -- is not a given. Maybe: He's often emotional anyway, as his post implies, or Those supplements or lack thereof are messing him up (St. John's wort, for example, is not something to be taken lightly), or It hadn't sunk in until now that he's mortal, or His T is low and is depressing him (very common w/low T), or His surgery, anesthesia, and/or cancer has physiologically impacted his endocrine/hormonal system, or Something unrelated is causing the symptoms, or Job stress AND PC have pushed him over the emotional edge, or His stress may even be due to having his prostate removed, but that gives many of us RELIEF, not distress. I'd keep looking, Gary. Do any of the things on that list strike a chord, or can you add to the list? I.P. Dear IP, > > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > > removed. It is normal The reason I wrote that is that I had just gotten off the phone after an hour-long conversation with a very interesting man. He is a neuroscientist among other prestigious things and he noticed my interest in you bozos and suggested I read one of his papers. So I did. What I did not know is that he himself is a pca survivor who has had the disease for six years and (at least from his academic output) is doing very well. However, because of his illness he has shifted his focus a bit and has been studying the effects of Pca on men, particulartly those, who like him, are on HT. We talked about some standard problems with pca treatment, especially the lack of "aftercare" that men receive. He said, in his opinion and based on extensive research, all men experience some emotional distress as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after surgery or other tx and he agreed with me that the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it, and move on to have a productive and happy life. He believes that men who don't feel anything of this sort are in denial. What I personally believe differs in men is not whether they feel emotional pain but the degree to which they do. He also agreed with me that psych. counseling after treatment should be a mandatory part of pca therapy. He, like I, was upset about the "cut and run" attitude of many doctors. The best doctors are those who follow up with you and are there to support you after the surgery. IMO RP surgery is a process, it's not over in a couple of hours. This prof also mentioned to me that he has a colleague who is a psychologist whose work is limited to counseling pca patients. Well, it might be a good idea to start a franchise of that sort and I am tempted to look into it. Now I am mentioning all this because these are the feelings and opinions of a MAN. After this conversation I told my husband about it and asked him if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after his RP. Now, first I will tell you that he is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?) and after the first difficult weeks after his RP his mood returned to normal and he never said a word about feeling bad. Nevertheless, when I asked him this question his immediate response was "yes, absolutely". But like most men he had kept it to himself. I knew he must have had these feelings because I mysellf felt upset that anybody had had the nerve to lay a hand on him "there." So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood." So when I said all men experience emotional distress I was quoting the opinion of this professor who is a Man, a pca survivor and something of an expert on this subject. We were both hoping that this would lead to some positive changes. > I was going to let that slide, thinking it didn't matter. But if it > misleads Gary into assuming emotional distress -- particularly his level > thereof -- really is unavoidable, he might not pursue it to diagnosis > and resolution. If his cause is treatable and/or significant, his > inaction could lead to unnecessary misery or even additional problems. Well, I will acknowledge that where I live going to therapy is as natural as breathing. However, I stand by what I said. Gary has been talking here about his distress about being incontinent, his worry -- even panic -- about his future sexual function and a host of other things. I don't think these feelings are being caused by lack of supplements or hormonal changes. I absolutely did not want to suggest to Gary that he will be a psych wreck for life. Actually, this was something I disagreed with about "Joe's List" but did not mention. There were so many "invalid" items on that list that I was worried it would give a man the idea that he was supposed to be disabled for life. I suggested to Gary that what he feels is normal, at least it makes sense, and that he will get over it in time but is not a bad thing to acknowledge those feelings. I was not suggesting he has an intractable problem. > As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a > technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can > fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were: > "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.", Now you are being the old soldier in the same way as you order everyone into "basic training". Not everything that's right for you is right for everyone else. Post-RP recovery is not "one size fits all." If RP is just a "technical challenge" then the moon is pink. In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right? IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings" as the old cliche goes and the people who are will have an easier time in the long run. > "HAH!! I KNEW I was smart to retire at 45 in case I don't live forever.", > "We knew SOMETHING would end the fun; guess it may be PC.", and > "OK . . . what are my options?". > Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing. Well, I don't know where you live, maybe Hawaii if you're lucky, but I don't have any windsurfing near me. > So Gary needs to look a little further, because a significant emotional > reaction to cancer -- especially a likely END to same -- is not a given. > Maybe:> He's often emotional anyway, as his post implies, or That's right, he does come across as upset and why not? Incontinence, impotence or whatever are not pleasant. > Those supplements or lack thereof are messing him up (St. John's wort, > for example, is not something to be taken lightly), or > It hadn't sunk in until now that he's mortal, or > His T is low and is depressing him (very common w/low T), or > His surgery, anesthesia, and/or cancer has physiologically impacted his > endocrine/hormonal system, or > Something unrelated is causing the symptoms, or > Job stress AND PC have pushed him over the emotional edge, Gary hasn't said a word about job stress. > His stress may even be due to having his prostate removed, but that > gives many of us RELIEF, not distress. Anything is possible but most likely the neurotransmitters in Gary's and other's brains, such as serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine, which affect our mood, have gotten a little sluggish and they could benefit from a chemical boost. This can be done with mood-lifting drugs which simply up the level of these "hormones" and correct this "brain drain." Many men have written in these groups that they have benefited from short term use of these drugs. > I'd keep looking, Gary. Do any of the things on that list strike a > chord, or can you add to the list? > > I.P. Best to you all and Gary I hope you feel better. Leah > [A neurosurgeon] said all men experience some emotional distress > as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after > surgery Given his weasel-words, "some" and "various kinds", I don't think his statement supports your more absolute version, "All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate removed." It's just not universally true, as evidenced by several men here. I can't imagine any rational person being depressed over losing some obscure body part that's harming or even killing him. If the part or the surgery causes collateral functional damage, that's a different story. > the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it, > and move on to have a productive and happy life. I've tried a few times to grieve, or at least feel sad, over my father's death decades ago simply because I thought I should. Nope; nothing there. He was a drunken son of a bitch who cared about no one but himself and beat my Mom. All that ended at his death. My brother agrees completely. Compared to that, my cancerous prostate and colon, my life-threatening left inner ear, my hernias, my wisdom teeth, my shoulder repairs . . . NADA. Good riddance! Zero second thoughts. Grief is for LOSS of people, pets, and/or activities we love; we GAIN with most surgeries. I haven't LOST a prostate or half my colon; I've reGAINED my life. > He believes that men who don't feel anything of this sort are in denial. Of what? It's a piece of meat that, in this case, some dude said does much more harm than good. > I asked [husband] if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after his > RP. He is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?) I tear up or even cry at appropriate movies, at the bravery of soldiers, at injured animals, etc., and will probably be very depressed when I can no longer fly above the waves, but ... over a piece of MEAT? > like most men he had kept it to himself. I'm just the opposite. I have no problems discussing my feelings about anything with anyone who's interested. > I knew he must have had these feelings because I myself felt upset NOW we're gettin' somewhere. That's something women do often, and it's called projection or transferrence of feelings. > So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a > little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood." If "manhood" = parts, they FIXED my "manhood", because it was trying to kill me. That's a GOOD thing, I THINK. If "manhood" refers to one's psyche, that's in our head and heart, not our crotch or even our pants. If my "manhood" is the ability to have orgasms, they're still great. Sorry, but many of us just don't define ourselves by our crotches, or even what hangs from them, let alone by more obscure parts. > Gary has been talking here about his distress about being incontinent, > his worry about his future sexual function Now THAT I could understand. But: a. You and your neuro friend have been saying that surgery, per se, especially if it remove some meat, always causes depression. b. Neither Gary's topic or post mentioned any of that. > I.P. said >> As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a >> technical challenge to be solved as best as we can so we can >> fugheddaboutit and get on with the rest of our lives. My reactions were: >> "Crap! Another hassle, and a big one.", > Not everything that's right for you is right > for everyone else. Post-RP recovery is not "one size fits all." Never said it was. The only "one size fits all" statements here came from you and your neuro friend. My statement began with "As SOME of us ..." > In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with > a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right? Except for the "supposed" part, Hell, yes. That was our objective, and we achieved it. I quit regarding my genitals as "mine", at least while in the hospital, about the third time I awoke in the morning to find a new gaggle of strangers staring at my purple, swollen, shortened, sweaty, bloody, crusty, flaccid, intubated crotch. > IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings" I may not be in touch with YOUR projected feelings, but I have a pretty good handle on my own. >> Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing. > I don't have any windsurfing near me. OK, dancing. Climbing the Empire State Building. Mooning the Crips. Whatever floats yer boat. Geez. > Gary hasn't said a word about job stress. Right. That was Kenn. My bad. > most likely the neurotransmitters ... have gotten a little sluggish > could benefit from a chemical boost ... with mood-lifting drugs I don't do medical diagnoses or prescribe meds. I just brainstorm possibilities for the pt and his doctors to consider. I.P. Dear all, > > [A neurosurgeon] said all men experience some emotional distress > > as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after > > surgery > > Given his weasel-words, "some" and "various kinds", I don't think his > statement supports your more absolute version, Actually, the weasel words were mine. And he is a neuroscientist, not a neurosurgeon. He studies the brain. Actually, when he told me this he was even more emphatic than I was. As an example of what he actually said, here is something from an email he sent me: "It is my opinion that urologists consistently under-advise patients about the risks of ED and the psych. hardship it has on patients and their partners (particularly for patients on ADT). This is an area in which I am now doing research." I agree with him about that based on personal experience. Not being told about something beforehand can be distressing. Then, there is his word, "hardship" and harship usually leads to emotional stress.. [Readers, keep in mind, this doesn't mean everybody has problems with ED or anything else]. "All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate removed." Well, I should have qualified the "all" by saying in my opinion. You're right. There is a man -- I mean there are some men -- whom this doesn't apply too. You are a "man's man" and that's why you are exempt. First of all most people who have had any major surgery experience some emotional distress afterwords and anxiety beforehand. As far as losses or hardships, you mention a couple of them later in this post. Of course, the loss of this tiny piece of meat, as you put it, would probably not cause a whole lot of distress in itself. It's what happens afterwords. What every man will probably endure forex, is a loss of privacy (as you yourself mention), probably a loss of dignity (like having a pipe inserted into your penis, aka, a Foley catheter), a loss of continence and a loss of potency. These things may not last very long or may not be severe but I think even a tiny bit of it would probably cause some emotional distress. You yourself say this is a given, when you respond to G's comment about side effects. If you think I'm suggesting that people get upset or grieve over the loss of a walnut-sized "piece of meat", well, I'm not. It's just not universally true, as evidenced by several men here. So why don't they speak up? The two of them. I can't imagine any rational person being depressed over losing some obscure body part > that's harming or even killing him. If the part or the surgery causes collateral functional damage, that's a different story. Well, the surgery always causes collateral damage, no matter how small or how fleeting it is. You yourself mention loss of privacy, (dignity) impotence and incontinence., for example. > > the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it, > > and move on to have a productive and happy life. Well, if I said it I shouldn't have said it so conclusively. I'm not an expert on men's mental health. But the prof. said it, too, and he is a pca survivor of 6 years who has at least been to some support groups so I think he should know something about this subject. He is also a person who has very in-depth knowledge of neuroscience, biology and anatomy, for starters and he has been working for a while on studying the effects of pca treatment on the patient's physical and emotional being. But if you don't like his conclusions you don't have to buy them. > I've tried a few times to grieve, or at least feel sad, over my father's > death decades ago simply because I thought I should. Nope; nothing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > life-threatening left inner ear, my hernias, my wisdom teeth, my > shoulder repairs . . . NADA. Good riddance! Zero second thoughts. Maybe you don't grieve for those body parts -- (although I think somebody having these parts out might grieve to to an extent, without even knowing it) but you do grieve over the indignities or inconveniences their removal causes you. I would think having your left inner-ear taken out might cause a loss -- of balance, say. > Grief is for LOSS of people, pets, and/or activities we love; we GAIN > with most surgeries. I haven't LOST a prostate or half my colon; I've > reGAINED my life. You can grieve over intangibles such as loss of dignity, forex, imo. True, I have said before that what you gain well makes up for your loss. When you get your first psa test and it comes out ok you forget about all the SE's. And most of this "collateral functional damage" is temporary. My husband said recently he can't even remember having ANY pain during his recovery. > > He believes that men who don't feel anything of this sort are in denial. > > Of what? It's a piece of meat that, in this case, some dude said does > much more harm than good. Well, you later mention a few things that might happen as a consequence of getting this little piece of meat out that might be upsetting. You make a good point, though: RP is, IMO, a process, not a medical procedure that lasts a few hours. It's more than getting the meat out... > > I asked [husband] if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after his > > RP. He is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?) > > I tear up or even cry at appropriate movies, at the bravery of soldiers, > at injured animals, etc., and will probably be very depressed when I can > no longer fly above the waves, but ... over a piece of MEAT? Well, I don't see you lettin' your hair down here. By the way, could you send me a list of the tearjerker movies? And as far as him not being emotional, he was the devil incarnate in the weeks after his surgery, grouching all the time. Fortunately, he soon got "unpossessed" and was back to his genial old self. > > like most men he had kept it to himself. > > I'm just the opposite. I have no problems discussing my feelings about > anything with anyone who's interested. Oh yeah...about your leakage, lack of sexual function or the like. I can't help thinking that's not the norm. > > I knew he must have had these feelings because I myself felt upset > > NOW we're gettin' somewhere. That's something women do often, and it's > called projection or transferrence of feelings. Yes, NOW you have a point. And I only felt better when a man in another group said he felt like he had been "violated" and that was the exact word I was looking for to describe how I felt about what happened to Him. Like, how dare they lay a hand on him, there? The problem with your statement is that when asked, my husb. said he felt the same way as I did. He just didn't advertise it. About the "projection" and "transference" -- sounds like you've been in psychoanalysis. But I'm sure you must have acquired that lingo elsewhere. You are not the type to lie on a couch and talk to somebody about your unconscious feelings. I'm sure you'd rather be windsurfing And good for you. > > So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a > > little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood." > > If "manhood" = parts, they FIXED my "manhood", because it was trying to > kill me. That's a GOOD thing, I THINK. If "manhood" refers to one's psyche, that's in our head and heart, not our crotch or even our pants. You're absolutely right. I apologize for that. LIke you said, manhood is more than the sum of your genitals. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't; I used the word "manhood," because in slang, it may refer to a certain part of the body. That's all. What I meant to say was messing with your private parts. > If my "manhood" is the ability to have orgasms, they're still great. > Sorry, but many of us just don't define ourselves by our crotches, or > even what hangs from them, let alone by more obscure parts. Well, good for you. But it's unfortunate that a lot of women do define you that way based on what they hear, read, etc. Maybe that's why we sometimes project the wrong things. > > Gary has been talking here about his distress about being incontinent, > > his worry about his future sexual function > > Now THAT I could understand. But:> a. You and your neuro friend have been saying that surgery, per se, > especially if it remove some meat, always causes depression. > b. Neither Gary's topic or post mentioned any of that. No, we have not. Both of us think of surgery as a process, not as something that's over in a few hours. I've said that many times. And Gary has talked a lot about being very distressed over the SE's, and from what i've seen it's more than usual. If not depressed he is certainly nervous about certain things, like his future sex life. > > I.P. said > >> As some of us, including myself, have said here, PC is a just a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Never said it was. The only "one size fits all" statements here came > from you and your neuro friend. My statement began with "As SOME of us ..." True. And it is because we both believe that doesn't necessarily make it true. But why is it that I haven't heard from more men of your size? > > In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with > > a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > new gaggle of strangers staring at my purple, swollen, shortened, > sweaty, bloody, crusty, flaccid, intubated crotch. Well, it's sad that you had to give up ownership of your genitals, even if it was only in the hospital. And I can assure you that my husband was very distressed about those same things -- especially when females were looking at him. Loss of privacy or dignity can be very painful. I myself have noticed that since I have been giving men "advice" about issues like priapism, ED and such, i have lost every shred of modesty, privacy, boundaries, embarrassment, shame, etc. that I had previously. I don't think two years ago I could have even said the word "penis" (well, maybe because it's so clinical). On the one hand this feels sad but it also has been worth it, at least for me. > > IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings" > > I may not be in touch with YOUR projected feelings, but I have a pretty > good handle on my own. True. I don't have a clue about what it feels like to be a man and so I have to make do with what i think men are feeling. And it's often wrong. But sometimes women can get men to do the talking, which might in intself be a good thing. Someone wrote to me: "As so often happens on these lists, it's the women, not the men, who talk about the emotional and sexual issues most openly and honestly." > > most likely the neurotransmitters ... have gotten a little sluggish > > could benefit from a chemical boost ... with mood-lifting drugs > > I don't do medical diagnoses or prescribe meds. I just brainstorm > possibilities for the pt and his doctors to consider. So do I and I was just expressing an opinion but maybe I did it too strongly. It turns out that i was right on the mark, that G. had had issues w/low mood before and he knew more about the subject than I did. But from what he wrote afterwards, he certainly took that advice seriously... > I.P. Best to you. Leah >> It's just not universally true [that all men are distressed over >> surgery], as evidenced by several men here. > > So why don't they speak up? > why is it that I haven't heard from more men ... They have. That's how I knew about them. You may have missed it, or not been here yet. SNIPped a bunch of circular arguments about grief > About the "projection" and "transference" -- sounds like you've been in > psychoanalysis. But I'm sure you must have acquired that lingo > elsewhere. You are not the type to lie on a couch and talk to somebody > about your unconscious feelings. Took a psychology course because it's interesting. Encountered the words in numerous management and other courses. Reading. And, oh yes . . . several months of lying on a behavioral psychologist's couch once a week. I'll take help anyplace I can get it. A funny story about that: I was there trying to determine why I had, in some circumstances, recently begun to talk so rapidly I often ran words together to the point of incoherency. When months of behavioral analysis failed to reveal any answers, we switched to group therapy. After half a dozen sessions of endless round robin discussions of each other's problems, the doc said to me in the group, "Your problem is not observable in this scenario." Their nearly unanimous response? "We thought you were another doctor, not a patient". Talk about the inmates running the asylum . . . > Gary has talked a lot about being very distressed over the SE's > ... about his distress about being incontinent, > ... about his future sexual function No, he hasn't, at least not in this thread. He asked specifically about muscle tension, spasm, migrating bone pain, problems with standing, neurotransmitters, etc. Those aren't RP SE's "all" or even "many" successful RP pts get. > Well, it's sad that you had to give up ownership of your genitals, even > if it was only in the hospital. And I can assure you that my husband > was very distressed about those same things -- especially when females > were looking at him. It's sort of like lying on my side with a scope up my rear end, blowing CO2 out constantly: I preferred my job to theirs hands down. And female uros have seen more male crotches than I have; it's their job and they're welcome to it, especially given the state mine was in that week. I gave up nothing, in fact GAINED (multiple opinions and insights about my progress), just as Bill Gates' wealth detracts not one cent from my income and in fact adds to it in countless ways. My primary regret was that three of the uros and nurses were gorgeous, and here I couldn't have "shown any appreciation" even if I HADN'T been on morphine. I was changing out of my swim suit at a lake years ago, with a towel wrapped around my waist, surrounded by strangers of at least two genders and many ages on the beach and on fishing boats nearby. As I bent down to pull my suit off my feet, one ankle rolled off a rock, causing me to yell and jerk in pain and reflex, causing my towel to drop to the ground just as a dozen strangers looked up to see what the yell was about. Some people got mooned, some got a Full Monty. There was no point getting embarrassed, particularly since the water was not cold, so I thought it was as funny as they did. > Loss of privacy or dignity can be very painful. Dignity's address is adjacent to that of manhood, tucked up into our heads, and privacy went up with my bedsheet after females were involved in two hernia surgeries, several colonoscopies, many DREs, a bladder endoscopy, a prostate bx, many turn-your-head-and-cough exams, a prostatectomy, colon resection, and even a few rolls in the hay. Besides, have you HEARD how young people TALK these days? '-) > I myself have noticed > that since I have been giving men "advice" about issues like priapism, > ED and such, i have lost every shred of modesty, privacy, boundaries, > embarrassment, shame, etc. that I had previously. And has that made you LESS of a person, or MORE? I.P. > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > their partners (particularly for patients on ADT). This is an area in > which I am now doing research." We feel that we WERE fully informed, our surgeon spent a very long time with us and explained everything from his point of view and answered all our questions, fully and honestly. > "All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > removed." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this doesn't apply too. You are a "man's man" and that's why you are > exempt. Spouse has never been called a man's man :-) But he accepts what is inevitable in life. > What every man will probably endure forex, is a loss of privacy (as you > yourself mention), probably a loss of dignity (like having a pipe > inserted into your penis, aka, a > Foley catheter), a loss of continence and a loss of potency. These > things may not last very long or may not be severe but I think even a > tiny bit of it would probably cause some emotional distress. I don't think that's undignified, it's part of the healing process so is good. > It's just not universally true, as evidenced by several men here. > > So why don't they speak up? The two of them. When we speak up we're not treated kindly. It's as though we're freaks, which we're not, just rational people who are prepared to accept short term difficulties for the benefit they give. > I can't imagine any rational person being depressed over losing some > obscure body part >> that's harming or even killing him. If the part or the surgery causes >> collateral functional damage, that's a different story. Nor can I. > Well, the surgery always causes collateral damage, no matter how small > or how fleeting it is. You yourself mention loss of privacy, (dignity) > impotence and incontinence., for example. Well, you have the choice of whether to risk collateral damage and the loss of the other things which might (or might not) be important but the alternative is unthinkable. >> > the best thing for a man to do is to acknowledge it, grieve over it, >> > and move on to have a productive and happy life. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > being. But if you don't like his conclusions you don't have to buy > them. No, he's probably right for some men, perhaps even most men, but not all. Some of us are grateful for the gift of life and would undergo many trials for it. >> I've tried a few times to grieve, or at least feel sad, over my father's >> death decades ago simply because I thought I should. Nope; nothing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > inconveniences their removal causes you. I would think having your > left inner-ear taken out might cause a loss -- of balance, say. Again, it's better than the alternative. I didn't grieve for the loss of part of my breast, I wouldn't grieve for the loss of my uterus (which might happen) or a finger or arm or leg - the only thing I'd grieve for is the loss of my husband and that would be a selfish grieving. >> Grief is for LOSS of people, pets, and/or activities we love; we GAIN >> with most surgeries. I haven't LOST a prostate or half my colon; I've >> reGAINED my life. > > You can grieve over intangibles such as loss of dignity, forex, imo. I think you're too concerned about dignity and privacy on others' behalves. We don't all think like that. >> > I asked [husband] if he had experienced any feelings of "loss" after >> > his >> > RP. He is not the type to be emotional about about anything (like IP?) ... >> > like most men he had kept it to himself. Perhaps it might have been better if he hadn't. Mind didn't. >> I'm just the opposite. I have no problems discussing my feelings about >> anything with anyone who's interested. > > Oh yeah...about your leakage, lack of sexual function or the like. I > can't help thinking that's not the norm. Spouse and I tell everyone we meet. We think that education is important. >> > I knew he must have had these feelings because I myself felt upset >> >> NOW we're gettin' somewhere. That's something women do often, and it's >> called projection or transferrence of feelings. OY! Not all of us :-) > Yes, NOW you have a point. And I only felt better when a man in > another group said he felt like he had been "violated" and that was the > exact word I was looking for to describe how I felt about what happened > to Him. Like, how dare they lay a hand on him, there? To give him extra quality and perhaps span of life. > About the "projection" and "transference" -- sounds like you've been in > psychoanalysis. Um - in Yorkshire we'd say that it takes one to know one :-) >> > So the message is you don't have to be a sissy to feel at least a >> > little bad about somebody messing around with your "manhood." [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > certain part of the body. That's all. What I meant to say was messing > with your private parts. Perhaps humans in the west are too hung up on our 'private parts'. Why should they be private? Amimals' genitals aren't - except in birds. >> > In the aftermath of somebody messing around with your genitals, with >> > a knife, you are supposed to feel hunky dory, right? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> new gaggle of strangers staring at my purple, swollen, shortened, >> sweaty, bloody, crusty, flaccid, intubated crotch. One of our sons was delighted at being able to tell his friends that his Dad had a cock like an aubergine. He's kept looking at it and is disappointed now that it's not spectacular. > Well, it's sad that you had to give up ownership of your genitals, even > if it was only in the hospital. And I can assure you that my husband > was very distressed about those same things -- especially when females > were looking at him. He should get a life. Oh! He's got one - thanks in part to those females. > Loss of privacy or dignity can be very painful. I myself have noticed > that since I have been giving men "advice" about issues like priapism, > ED and such, i have lost every shred of modesty, privacy, boundaries, > embarrassment, shame, etc. that I had previously. I don't think two > years ago I could have even said the word "penis" (well, maybe because > it's so clinical). 'Penis' clinical? What did you call it before then? Mary Hello all-- NOTE: the following contains some adult language. If you understand British, you might want to leave now. No offense was meant to anybody from UK, only to addressee, who has posted nasty things about me and it's not the first time. Beg your pardon. > >callalily wrote: > > years ago I could not have even said the word "penis" (well, maybe because > > it's so clinical). > >'Penis' clinical? What did you call it before then? Gor Blimey! Well, I'll go to the foot of the stairs, you mouthy mong! Don't know another word for "Penis"? Well, maybe you should go out and buy a DICK-shenery, ya doughnut. Seems to me yer 'off yer trolley or maybe a little bit cabbaged. Remember when Daddy used to come 'ome at night aled up like an elephant's trunk and Mummy would call him a "Beef bayonet," "tadge(r), " "Hampton" , John Thomas, trouser snake, percy, pork dagger, chopper or tummy banana? And if you were minding lessons' 'ere you shoulda learnt a few more good words right 'ere, like Woody, Willy and Winky (Winkie?). Jeez, yer so clever, Mary, ya must have gone to public school because you know the word ,"cock!"). >>One of our sons was delighted at being able to tell his friends that his Dad >>had a cock like an aubergine. Spouse 'as a cock like an eggplant? Ya mean swollen and purple? Mushy? Dunked in garlic sauce, maybe. >>I think you're too concerned about dignity and privacy on others' behalves. >> We don't all think like that. Aye, luv, you and Spouse don't seem to care much about privacy. Or dignity. Hell's bell's, what was your son doin' starin' at 'is Daddy standing stark bollock nekkid? With a BONE-ON? >>He's kept looking at it and is disappointed now that it's not spectacular. Aye, fallen down like the London Bridge, maybe. Knew all the time you were all mouth and no trousers. > Spouse has never been called a man's man :-) But he accepts what is > inevitable in life. Agree. I wouldn't call Jack Sprat a man's man. Sounds like Spouse could use some conkers, five-knuckle shuffles, Jackson Pollocks, Krackers, lychees or nadges. If Spouse can't pitch 'is tent and you're gaggin' for it maybe you'll just 'ave to strum yourself or get yourself a toyboy. > When we speak up we're not treated kindly. It's as though we're freaks, > which we're not, just rational people Beg your pardon? >> Oh yeah...talking about your leakage, lack of sexual function or the like. I > > can't help thinking that's not the norm. >>I talk to anybody about this whenever I can. Well, why don't ya quit rabbitin', gabbin', earachin', wankin' and yakkin' here and go fart-a.s somewhere else. > Perhaps humans in the west are too hung up on 'private parts'. Why > should they be private? Amimals' genitals aren't - except in birds. Some humans ARE hung up on their privates, (what you call "naughty bits'). I'lll bet you fancy looking at animals chucking and mucking, doing the rumpy pumpy, bumpin' tummies and cattle-truckin'. That'll teach you not to lace into me. Cheerios, Leah > Hello all-- > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > That'll teach you not to lace into me. LOL! All it does is reduce your credibility to nil. I.P. As I have stated approximately two years ago, you should write a book from the patient's perspective. You are a genuine natural writer and grab attention immediately. Hell, when I'm feeling a bit down, I always feel better after reading your posts/responses. This was a great example! (It's not good to be too PC about PC.) ;) Thanks. B.A. > As I have stated approximately two years ago, you should write a book > from the patient's perspective. Might be fun, but would have to wait until I'm disabled and have even MORE time to spend on it. > You are a genuine natural writer and grab attention immediately. Many people, including several here, don't like being grabbed that abruptly by that part of their anatomy. > when I'm feeling a bit down, I always > feel better after reading your posts/responses. I suspect your ISP is filtering the political threads. ;-) Thanks. Glad to oblige. I value helping a small handful through this PCa nightmare over appeasing a few dozen PC Police every time. I.P. Hello IP-- > > [A neurosurgeon] said all men experience some emotional distress > > as a result of suffering a loss or losses of various kinds after [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > life-threatening left inner ear, my hernias, my wisdom teeth, my > shoulder repairs . . . NADA. Good riddance! Zero second thoughts. In my most unprofessional opinion I think you have had a lot of "second thoughts" even though you may not be aware of them. You seem to have a ton of anger/rage/desire for vengeance in you, maybe because of your father's behavior and/or the series of illnesses you have had. I know you will disagree, but Part 1 is right there for everybody to see (drunken father). You have been venting your rage in the past few days at the poor, the whelping welfare mothers, the immoral, the lazy, the unemployed, etc. Personally, I think your anger about these things that have nothing to do with these people, they are just a convenient punching bag. I don't know why the underclass should upset you SO much unless you were mugged yesterday by an unwed mother or or maybe a lazy, immoral fruitpicker. As far as these illnesses just being "technical challenges" I can buy that only up to a point. Forex, you say you don't feel anything about privacy and dignity issues because you gave that up a long time ago when everybody was staring at your "swollen crotch" but there was a first time, for you and everyone else, to feel deprived of their privacy, dignity and ownership of their body. I believe you when you say you view the above as mere inconveniences but it's not plausible. Anybody who has been thru these life-threatening events would have some residue of emotion, e.g., anger, which you seem to have in abundance. Forex, you have told the story several times of how the doctors misdiagnosed your Meniere's Disease, how your life was hanging in the balance for days. while you were waiting for some MRI results. Now I was upset because 7 doctors didn't diagnosed my migraine headaches so I imagine it would be more upsetting to have a serious, symptomatic illness with no name attached to it. (I looked up this disease and it does not sound like fun; I think my mother-in-law has it.) And I seem to remember something about a doctor ignoring your rising PSA levels. Now that would make me angrier than anything in the world. > > Not everything that's right for you is right > > for everyone else. Post-RP recovery is not "one size fits all." I realize that their are men like you who don't feel emotionally distressed at all after major surgery or think so, but you and others have brought to my att'n that men have a range of feelings about this. Now, as far as you are concerned you are so hell-bent on self-sufficiency and independence as a creed (which is wonderful) that I don't think you would let anybody near you even if you needed help. So maybe you convince yourself that you don't need help in the first place. My speculation. The truth is there are times when the most self-sufficient person has to reach out to someone else for help and there's nothing wrong with that. I am saying this because I want the men here to realize that IMO it's perfectly normal and acceptable to be emotionally upset after surgery (people who undergo any major surg are "upset.") and there is no right answer. I opened up this subject for discussion because I thought it might generate some honest conversation about feelings men have post-RP, the whole range of them, and I don't want people to think that the conclusion of all these messages was that they are not supposed to feel emotional at all based on a few posts. My idea was to state the opposite -- that if you feel upset by the illness, surgery, "collateral effects" there's nothing wrong with you. And if you don't feel upset so much the better. > > IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings" > > I may not be in touch with YOUR projected feelings, but I have a pretty > good handle on my own. Have to disagree. You have been venting your anger here for days now. Seems to me it's gotten out of hand. > >> Then I researched them, chose two, acted, and went windsurfing. Nothing better. Escape into the sunset. > > I.P. Now I did not mean to pry into your personal life at all but I felt like I needed to comment because the cumulative effect of your angry posts in recent days has upset me a lot. Best to you. Leah Despite admitting an "unprofessional opinion", you sure seem to have an opinion about everything. Have you explored your need to comment on almost everything? >Hello IP-- > [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] > >Leah RML wrote to Leah: > Despite admitting an "unprofessional opinion", you sure seem to have > an opinion about everything. > > Have you explored your need to comment on almost everything? Maybe Leah and I should start a therapy group. At least we wouldn't sit around in silence. I.P. What Tdub said -- "Agree with IP on the tendancy of people to project (superimpose) their feelings onto others. Those who over-rely on the emotional aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look at things the same way they do" -- squared. A page full of presumptive, clueless, touchy-feely, projection worth only a couple of comments in final, sheer desperation: > Hello IP-- > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You have been venting your rage in the past few days at the poor, the > whelping welfare mothers, the immoral, the lazy, the unemployed, etc. I know you're not psychologically capable of understanding this, Leah, but, for one last time: facts are not emotional. Show us ONE statement indicating anger at your list, to show us you're not in La La Land. > Personally, I think your anger about these things that have nothing to > do with these people, they are just a convenient punching bag. I [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Disease, how your life was hanging in the balance for days. while you > were waiting for some MRI results. It's a very useful, versatile, pertinent illustration of many points, and I don't presume many people remember everything I say. > Now I was upset because 7 doctors didn't diagnosed my migraine > headaches so I imagine it would be more upsetting to have a serious, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > So maybe you convince yourself that you don't need help in the first > place. My speculation. A completely invalid one. > The truth is there are times when the most self-sufficient person has > to reach out to someone else for help and there's nothing wrong with [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > effects" there's nothing wrong with you. > And if you don't feel upset so much the better. No, you opened it up by saying every man feels depressed over any surgery, and anyone who says otherwise is in denial. >>> IMO you are/were not "in touch with your feelings" >> I may not be in touch with YOUR projected feelings, but I have a pretty >> good handle on my own. > > Have to disagree. You have been venting your anger here for days now. Show me one example or . . . > Now I did not mean to pry into your personal life at all but I felt > like I needed to comment because the cumulative effect of your angry > posts in recent days has upset me a lot. If you can't stand the heat, stop lighting the kitchen stove. You can't expect to spout socialist crap and tell others what and how they feel about things without expecting feedback. Forums are not one-way glass. I.P. > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > removed. At the risk of being accused of criticism again (wrongly) I want to say that my husband didn't experience emotional distress, he rejoiced because his cancer was removed and with it quite a few side effects. I'm sure that many men are distressed, but not all. Everyone is different. Spouse was far more distressed after his MI in 1984, he felt that it was diminishing his manhood because he couldn't do the physical activities he had done before. It was made worse when the Blood Transfusion Service said that he couldn't give blood any more. It took quite a lot of encouragement on my part, coupled with exercise, for him to regain his former physical self and his self esteem. I don't know nay other man who felt like that after an MI but I'm sure there must be some. Mary > At the risk of being accused of criticism again (wrongly) I want to say > that my husband didn't experience emotional distress, he rejoiced because [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Mary WTF is a MI? > WTF is a MI? I don't know what you mean by WTF ... Mary >> WTF is a MI? > > I don't know what you mean by WTF ... > > Mary Mary, WTF, I presume, is "what the f--k." Mark, MI is myocardial infarction...heart attack. JerryW >>> WTF is a MI? >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > JerryW Thanks for explaining Jerry. I wouldn't reply to anyone who used weak language though, what's wrong with a simple "What is MI?" Mary > I wouldn't reply to anyone who used weak language though, what's wrong > with a simple "What is MI?" > > Mary That was not weak language. It was strong language. Since this a public forum, if you really care about helping others, then people should cut back on the abbreviations and "inside lingo." MI was a bit over the top for this forum, IMO (in my opinion). >> I wouldn't reply to anyone who used weak language though, what's wrong >> with a simple "What is MI?" >> >> Mary > > That was not weak language. It was strong language. No, it's weak in that it's a substitute for the proper words. > Since this a public forum, if you really care about helping others, then > people should cut back on the abbreviations and "inside lingo." MI was a > bit over the top for this forum, IMO (in my opinion). That's your opinion, I have a higher regard for the people in this group. Others do seem to know ... "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message > > No, it's weak in that it's a substitute for the proper words. Rad-grad and MI are not proper words in any dictionary I have ever seen. Let's quit using esoteric lingo and use English instead. > "Mary Fisher" <mary.fisher@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message > >> No, it's weak in that it's a substitute for the proper words. > > Rad-grad and MI are not proper words in any dictionary I have ever seen. > Let's quit using esoteric lingo and use English instead. At least when the lingo and acronyms and abbreviations apply to PC (or PCa or pca or ca or "the beast"), a pt is equipped to talk PC seriously or even THINK about making ANY decisions only after having read a PC book or three, by which time they understand the language. We try to break newbies in gently, but having to translate and explain every term endlessly overloads the writers, gives some newbies the impression they can skate through this process without reading several books and abstracts and websites, and would lead to confusion due to different interpretations. Can you imagine having to describe or discuss each pt's grade, stage, PSAV, % free, met recurrence likelihood, and many other factors in plain English rather than in prostatespeak? We'd bring the internet to its knees. Expecting this forum to replace due diligence (i.e, reading several PC books, many study abstracts, and several websites) is critical; it teaches pts how to fish, and answers questions they would never have thought to ask. Hand-feeding them with kid gloves keeps then in the dark, dependent on the fish scraps we give them. No, MI isn't prostatespeak. But its interpretation isn't important to the discussion, either. I.P. > No, MI isn't prostatespeak. But its interpretation isn't important to the > discussion, either. > > I.P. One can only determine that the interpretation of MI is not relevant to this forum once one knows what it is (and that it is not directly related to a discussion of prostate cancer). I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either, given the very different types of radiation treatment available (and the differing side effects of each). That does not mean one has to pontificate and fill up the internet (your kidding, right?), but just the short simple facts are all that is needed. What keeps people in the dark is the secret lingo and code words that people use because they are apparently too lazy to type out the English word, or sometimes too embarrassed to say what they mean. This causes massive miscommunication, misunderstanding, and spreads more fear, shame, and embarrassment. It is no wonder that patients are not able to get reliable information about side-effects of treatment. I will give you an example. Some people say "dry" when they mean they are continent with regard to urinary function, others say "dry" when they mean no semen during orgasm, and others use "dry" to mean completely impotent. Let's cut out the code words and say exactly what is happening to us in plain simple English. Come out from under the shadows into the real world were we can discuss these issues as adults. > I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either <Chuckle> I haven't a clue what "rad-grad" means. I.P. >> I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either > > <Chuckle> I haven't a clue what "rad-grad" means. > > I.P. >> I don't think "rad-grad" is particularly helpful either > > <Chuckle> I haven't a clue what "rad-grad" means. I've never seen it. Mary > I've never seen it. > > Mary In this thread, on Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:49 AM EST, tchtic@yahoo.com posted the following (in part): "Update from a rad-grad - I slept for 10 hours last night. Did not get up to pee. This morning at 8:00 AM I had a lot to empty out. It was slower than usual but not a dribble. -kh" Dear Mary, > Spouse was far more distressed after his MI in 1984, he felt that it was > diminishing his manhood because he couldn't do the physical activities he [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Mary It sounds like your husband had a heart attack in plain English and every person I know of who this happened to or who had heart surgery felt "distressed" afterwords. For one thing, it is a big shock to the system. But they got over it. Leah > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > removed. I didn't. Just happy to be rid of a dysfunctional organ. Agree with IP on the tendancy of people to project (superimpose) their feelings onto others. People vary in how much they run their lives on intellect vs. emotion. We all use both but, IMO, those who over-rely on the emotional aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look at things the same way they do. Calli lily wrote >> All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate >> removed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look > at things the same way they do. Now why can't *I* explain things that concisely, so we could all get to bed earlier? Maybe it's partly because some people question almost everything I say, adding to the snowball. I.P. >> All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate >> removed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look > at things the same way they do. Well said. Mary Hello all, > > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > > removed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look > at things the same way they do. Thanks for the perspective. I still think most men experience some emotional distress after RP, especially if they have had to deal with issues like impotence and incontince. I base this on what I have heard personally from men. I thought about this whole issue for a while and I realized that one problem I have is not focusing enough on the curative, lifesaving aspect of these treatments. I just take this for granted. And I focus on the harm and distress they cause and consider the doctors practically evil for what they do. I guess that really doesn't make sense. I have never faced a life-threatening illness so I don't know what that feels like. I do know that when my husb and I were at the uro's office at the time of diagnosis and he outliined all the possible side effects of surgery I was hoping my husband would say, "No, thank you." I'm embarrassed to say it but I was the one who asked the uro, "If he doesn't get any treatment, how long can he live...." The uro responded, "I dont know...maybe five years." My thought on hearing this was that maybe it would be better to have five years of a normal life and a good sex life rather than going through all this. However, here's my point. His reaction to hearing about surgery, side effects and all was to say, "Yes. How soon can you do it?" He was focused on saving his life and he did not hesitate for a nanosecond before making his choice. You could have told him the treatment was to hang him by the balls from the ceiling and he would have agreed. He is certainly not emotionally distressed a year after surgery because he's glad to be alive. However, he did admit to feeling a loss when he became impotent and I think he's still working it out. Hopefully he will regain his EF. Best to you. Leah > I still think most men experience some > emotional distress after RP, especially if they have had to deal with > issues like impotence and incontince. Well, at least your position has softened from "ALL men are DEPRESSED by SURGERY itself" to "MOST men . . . SOME DISTRESS . . . from IMPOTENCE and INCONTINENCE". Thats a start. > I thought about this whole issue for a while and I realized that one > problem I have is not focusing enough on the curative, lifesaving > aspect of these treatments. Exactly. It's not the SURGERY that causes our problems, but the CANCER, just as it's not the GUN that shoots us, but the bad guy. Heck, the surgery is the GOOD thing about PC, because it's what cures us (we hope). > I have never faced a life-threatening illness so I don't know what that > feels like. One thing I can guarantee you is that it feels very differently to different people. Touchy-feely artists and pragmatic engineers, for example, live and feel and think in different worlds, if not galaxies, on many issues. The differences are often so profound that they sometimes may as well have a whole Wall of Babel between them. Within a few hours after an ambulance ride a decade ago, 5 neurosurgeons interviewed me. Finally, I overheard a neuro discussing my case quietly with his dept chief down the hall. I walked up to them and insisted they fill me in. Their consensus was that I was probably experiencing brain stem emboli, one of which would probably kill me as we spoke or tomorrow or at least by next week, and that further testing would definitively confirm or change their tentative diagnosis. While this was chilling for a moment, it was also out of our hands; I'd die ... or not ... but there was no reason to actually get excited or depressed, let alone actually lose sleep over it, unless the special MRI in a couple of days confirmed their strong suspicions. It ruled out the emboli hypothesis, and this was about the time I generated and gave them my own symptoms vs causes matrix of the whole years-long problem. That finally helped them isolate my Meniere's (inner ear) disease and achieve the best solution possible. HEY, DOCS: TALK TO YOUR DAMNED PATIENTS. We aren't idiots, we have more motivation and time than you do to fix what ails us, and many of us are quite capable of discussing serious crap rationally. When the ENT surgeons described one of my two options -- opening my skull, shoving the brain aside, reaching past it to sever a nerve forward and beneath it -- I said, "I hope you wash your hands first", whereupon they realized I wasn't too upset about all this crap. That's what the earlier, asymptomatic phases of PC are, inherently: crap. It doesn't HAVE to be any more than time-consuming hassle -- i.e., CRAP, with numbers in this case (grade, stage, statistics) -- until symptoms or tx SEs actually impact us physically. Some people just don't get excited about it at that stage, some can't avoid getting excited about it because they're wired that way, and still others work themselves into frenzies. I suspect that many people in the latter category could really improve their attitude if they realized they are IN that category. One of my Tee shirts sort of sums it up: "WINDSURFING (or insert your own passion here) is life; the rest is details." Until my PC actually impacts my life significantly, it's just a detail ... just crap. My wife and I still love each other, we still have orgasms, and pads are but a minor nuisance for me. Hell, she's worn 'em -- or a substitute -- for 50 years and counting. For now, my PC just gives me advance notice on how and when I may die: pretty horribly (or suddenly) and in 8-12 years. HEY! I'VE GOT 8-12 YEARS LEFT, maybe including 6-8 years of doing the things I love best! Beats not knowing, you might say, and beats the hell out of abandoning my wife a decade ago due to a brain stem emboli. Now, Leah; do we think in the same language? I.P. > Exactly. It's not the SURGERY that causes our problems, but the CANCER, > just as it's not the GUN that shoots us, but the bad guy. Heck, the > surgery is the GOOD thing about PC, because it's what cures us (we hope). I don't know about the analogy. I think the cancer would be analogous to the bullet and the surgery to... well... surgery. I would agree that of all the people I've seen shot, all were shot by a person. But, I digress.... I absolutely agree that surgery caused me no concern at all. I had so much confidence in modern medicine, that I knew I would live through it. And afterwards, I was shocked about the painlessness of it all. Nope. Back then, my depressor was death, short and simple. I wasn't ready for death and was afraid that it might be incurable. Of course, it eventually was dx'd as incurable, but by then I was ready.  SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > my depressor was death, short and simple. It's gonna happen anyway, and within 20 years for most people our age even without PC. We may as well concentrate of LIFE rather than death (and make sure the wife knows where to whack the furnace when it balks). I'll get back with a reality check when mine returns, but having already been pronounced "doomed" 2 or 3 times, I may have some cushion. > I wasn't ready for death and was afraid that it might be incurable. > it eventually was dx'd as incurable, but by then I was ready. Could you share with us what changed? I'm guessing many inquiring, depressed minds want to know. I.P. >> I wasn't ready for death and was afraid that it might be incurable. it >> eventually was dx'd as incurable, but by then I was ready. > > Could you share with us what changed? I'm guessing many inquiring, > depressed minds want to know. Many minds don't want to hear part of the answer, but I guess a question asked deserves and answer. I was 46 years and 1 month old. For years I worried I might get my father's cancer. But, I didn't get it at 40, or 41, or 42.... By 46, I felt safe. All the other dangers of my life were far behind me. My job at this point was a sedentary middle manager, creating and managing my company's networked business system. My future was not limited. I'm was going to retire at 48 and take a similar position with a smaller company to add to my pension. I might do that for 5 years, 10 years, ... who knows? Then, in an instant, I was going to die. I mean really. I am going to die. It may not be from cancer, though that was a really good possibility. But, now, I was faced with death. And, I wasn't prepared. I wasn't finished with my career. I hadn't planned well for my family. I hadn't made up with God. In lieu of the possible short term, my plan for long term post-retirement employment seemed myopic. A few years post-retirement employment was not going to provide the nest egg I would have wanted for my wife and children. But, about six months before my 48th birthday, my company announced an optional retirement program that would pay me my pension and pay me to work for up to 8 years more. So, instead of getting 60% pension and 55% elsewhere, I'm getting 60% and 100%. And, while I'm doing it, the 60% is going into a tax-free annuity that earns 5% compounded annually. By March 29, 2011, I will have built that nest egg. We lived in a modest ranch with three children when I was 46. By the time I was 48, one was married, one was engaged to a pretty good guy and the other one I never worried about (she had her head on straight). We had found and signed on the dotted line for a spacious condo that we designed and built. I designed the whole thing for a worst-case prostate cancer scenario -- all living and garage areas on one level and the den can be converted to a hospice in less than a day. Some place my wife could live another 30 years. And, the hard to hear part... I was a very religious youth. The religious teachers in high school did everything they could to dissuade us; you know, to make us stronger. In my case, their devil's advocacy worked. I lost my faith. By the time I was 46, I realized that I was missing a huge chunk of my person. I started looking back into things and decided to start from the beginning. By the time I was 48, I was convinced that God existed, that he Bible was my key and, as it turned out, I haven't done too much to keep myself out of Heaven -- no murder, theft, adultery, false witness and covetedness. So, by 48 I was ready. But, almost three years ago, Maxwell Michael Kramer was born. Now, we have Gabby, JJ, Zack and Julia. I'm not ready to go at 52. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > "I.P. Freely" asked > >> Kramer wrote >>> I wasn't ready for death and was afraid that it might be incurable. it >>> eventually was dx'd as incurable, but by then I was ready. >> Could you share with us what changed? I'm guessing many inquiring, >> depressed minds want to know. > > Many minds don't want to hear part of the answer, but I guess a question > asked deserves an answer. Or a rousing "None of yer beeswax". I liked your eloquent answer WAY better. > I was a very religious youth. The religious > teachers in high school did everything they could to dissuade us; you know, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So, by 48 I was ready. Beautiful story, Steve, and inspirational. My Dad never took the time for church, but late in his life he said that only his belief in God got him through his final dismal years after his drinking destroyed his corporate executive career. And POWs with faith credit that for their survival. I dropped the church from my life after growing up in it when my new pastor got way too pushy; I need carrots, not sticks, to entice me. I suspect I'll miss it when my life starts looking short and grim. > But, almost three years ago, Maxwell Michael Kramer was born. Now, we have > Gabby, JJ, Zack and Julia. I'm not ready to go at 52. That makes us doubly glad you've recovered your faith. Thank you. I.P. Dear all, > > I still think most men experience some > > emotional distress after RP, especially if they have had to deal with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > SURGERY itself" to "MOST men . . . SOME DISTRESS . . . from IMPOTENCE > and INCONTINENCE". Thats a start After all this my position is that I believe ALL men experience SOME emotional distress after surgery because that is normal after any major operation. And all men have "collateral damage", incontinence and impotence, even if it does not last long. Yes, I believe that men who say they've experienced no pain at all -- zero -- are in denial. You are in a class all by yourself IP, and based on the statements of 2 other men who said they felt the same way as you I am not going to draw any conclusions. We all know that men are taught not to appear vulnerable or weak and that is one reason why I didn't expect too many responses from the more "emotional" side. The writers would probably be punished for responding so they chose not to. If this were an anonymous questionnaire I think the responses would be very different. > One thing I can guarantee you is that it feels very differently to > different people Touchy-feely artists you mean fey or gay? and pragmatic engineers macho men? , for > example, live and feel and think in different worlds, if not galaxies, > on many issues. They are closer than you think. And I really don't like the stereotypes you present. The differences are often so profound that they > sometimes may as well have a whole Wall of Babel between them. I think a wall separates you from your feelings. It would threaten your sense of independence and self-sufficiency if you acknowledged that you, like all people, are vulnerable and may have to rely on others sometimes. Just my diagnosis. >. >> > Now, Leah; do we think in the same language? Not yet, but I think we will get to that point some day. Hope so. I would like to hear you speaking my language, for a change. > I.P. Best to you. Leah >> and pragmatic engineers > > macho men? Now THERE'S a label I haven't heard applied to many engineers! I.P. Dear all, > > All men experience emotional distress after they have their prostate > > removed. > People vary in how much they run their lives on intellect vs. > emotion. We all use both but, IMO, those who over-rely on the emotional > aspect feel everyone else has the same feelings that they do, and look > at things the same way they do. I don't think you meant to do this but you are casting me as a stereotypical overemotional, hysterical woman and this is not the first time it's happened. Last week I was ridiculed for being "excitable" because I posted a message about a potential new gene therapy. Only reason I chose to comment on this was because the researcher happened to be my husband's doctor. In reality I don't jump up and down every time i read of a promising therapy. And I'm not overly emotional either. Quite the contrary. In this case, I was trying to help men who are going to have or have had RP to deal with certain psychological issues and maybe I overreached. It's very hard for me as a woman to relate to this whole thing so maybe I did project a bit. This is not due to hysteria but lack of information. I can't interview every man or even a few men about this issue so i have to make certain assumptions. The fact is, there's no right and wrong here. You and the others who felt the same way as you after RP ("unemotional") may not be representative either. This is just not a big enough sample to be scientific. In reality the work I do relies 100% on logic and I have spent a good deal of time studying that subject so I do not normally make decisions based on "emotion." This is not a zero-sum game. You can be "intellectual" while at the same time being emotional. I don't think this situation, concerning the life or death of my partner and others, is something that I can address dispassionately all of the time. However, I would never make a decision solely based on emotion. Leah > I'm not overly emotional The 72", plasma screen, HDTV, 64,000-color self-portrait you have painted in this forum in scores of posts and hundreds of statements contradicts that. We have nothing else to go on. I.P. > Dear all, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > stereotypical overemotional, hysterical woman and this is not the first > time it's happened. Well, that's how you come across ... Mary 'Allo darlin, > "callalily" <lfcjjk@aol.com> wrote in message > > > > > I don't think you meant to do this but you are casting me as a > > stereotypical overemotional, hysterical woman > > Well, that's how you come across ... > > Mary Crikey, ya w.nk stain. I don't give a monkey's chuff whatcha think. Even yer countrymen disowned ya, darlin'. Why're ya always wankin' on 'ere, ya mounthy mong? Don't ya just take the biscuit, callin' me emotional and 'ysterical, ya barmy bimbo. Yev lost your plot, yer off your trolley, ya just don'tknow it ya dozey mare. Why don't ya go fart-a.s somewhere else? We don't need no nutters 'ere. And no cabbages, w.nkers or doughnuts neither. C U Next Tuesday, ya Douglas Hurd.. A Secret Admirer P.S. No offense meant to anybody from UK except the addressee. Who let Michael Richards in here? I.P. > Gor Blimey! Well, I'll go to the foot of the stairs, you mouthy mong! > [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > P.S. No offense meant to anybody from UK except the addressee. > Who let Michael Richards in here? > > I.P. Who's Michael Richards? Mary >> Who let Michael Richards in here? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mary An American comedian known only (until the last two weeks) for playing "Kramer" on the "Seinfeld" TV comedy series, but who exploded in a racist rant onstage after being heckled by some African-Americans in the audience. http://www.tmz.com/2006/11/20/kramers-racist-tirade-caught-on-tape/ His outburst, caught on cellphone video, has become the focus of tabloid news. Alex > >> Who let Michael Richards in here? > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Alex I hope this isn't going to affect the value of my shares of Kramerica...ron >>> Who let Michael Richards in here? >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > His outburst, caught on cellphone video, has become the focus of tabloid > news. Ah, I understand now :-) Couldn't play the clip but I got the drift. We don't have a television and don't read newspapers. I remember hearinig something about it on BBC radio but it wasn't regarded as being newsworthy enough to make an impact on many. When people do things like that it says more about them than it does about their 'victims'. Mary > Alex |
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