Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2006
Catalona on Open Surg v. Robotic?
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callalily - 20 Nov 2006 18:41 GMT Hello all,
This is a subject that comes up all the time. I recommend that all people considering surgery read this. I know Catalona is one of the best.
In the Fall 2006 edition of QUEST, published by the Urological Research Foundation, Dr. Catalona gave his views on the effectiveness of robotic prostatectomy in removing cancer and in preserving potency. His response can be found at the following website under Q&A:
http://www.drcatalona.com
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Question: I have been hearing a lot of good things about DaVinci Robotics for removing the prostate. I know that you do not practice the procedure, but what would you say about its benefits for preserving potency and continence? And which patients should consider it as a treatment alternative?
Answer: In my opinion, the robotic prostatectomy (often called the DaVinci prostatectomy) is not as effective as the traditional open prostatectomy for simultaneously accomplishing complete removal of cancer and preserving potency.
One of the reasons is that the robot lacks the "human touch" and it is not possible to appreciate how the prostate gland feels and how readily it separates from the nerves and other surrounding tissues. The robot does not handle the prostate gland as gently as the human hand, and not infrequently the robot punctures the capsule of the prostate, leading to positive surgical margins.
Another limitation is that with the robotic prostatectomy, the prostate is removed by burning it out with electrocautery or a so-called harmonic scalpel that cuts by heat, and if the heat is too near the nerves, it irreversibly damages them. Also, if the burning is too close to the prostate gland, it risks cutting into the prostate, resulting in positive surgical margins and possibly leaving cancer behind.
Advocates of robotic surgery say that there is less bleeding and greater magnification with robotic surgery. However, excellent magnification and visualization can be provided with open surgery, and with an experienced surgeon, few patients require blood transfusions from another person.
With robotic surgery, it is more difficult to suture and apply hemostatic clips and it is more difficult to perform a lymph node dissection.
Enthusiasts of the robotic procedure claim it is "less invasive" and has a quicker recovery time. But actually it is more invasive because the surgeon has to go through the peritoneal cavity to get to the prostate (a more invasive approach associated for greater risk for injury to the bowel, major blood vessels, and the ureters and a greater risk for later intestinal obstruction from adhesions). Usually 6 one-inch incisions are made for robotic surgery, while for open surgery, one 4 to 5 inch incision is made that does not enter into the peritoneal cavity. With the smaller incision now frequently used for open surgery, there is no material difference in the recovery time and return to normal activity. . .
The complications with robotic prostatectomy are more serious than with open prostatectomy and they lead to more postoperative emergency room visits, more re-hospitalizations, and more re-operations.
I believe that with the robotic or laparoscopic prostatectomy, the patient and the surgeon have to make more of a stark choice between removing all of the cancer or preserving the nerves to maintain potency. I believe that there is a greater likelihood of accomplishing both objects with the increased access provided by the open approach.
Most importantly, however, the robotic prostatectomy has no track record in terms of long-term cancer control. If small amounts of cancer are left behind, it may not become apparent for years.
Patients sometimes tell me that they know someone who underwent a robotic prostatectomy a few months ago and seems to be doing fine. However, the final outcome of the operation may not become apparent for up to 10 years. Thus, long-term cancer cure rates are needed before one can truly evaluate the effectiveness of the operation.
In sum, I do not believe the robotic prostatectomy is as safe a cancer operation as open radical prostatectomy, and I do not believe that nerve sparing can be as readily or safely accomplished. For patients, the most important outcomes of radical prostatectomy are: Is he cured of his cancer? Is he continent? Can he have erections sufficient for intercourse?
These questions have been well documented for open rostatectomy. The jury is still out with laparoscopic/robotic prostatectomy.
The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.
LFC
Mary Fisher - 20 Nov 2006 20:05 GMT > Hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://www.drcatalona.com Thank you for this.
When we met our surgeon last Tuesday I asked about keyhole surgery. He said that he didn't like it because he could see a lot more in three dimensions than can be seen using cameras, which only give a two dimensional view on a screen.
However, he said, the robotic system was better than regular keyhole surgery. The 'hands' used in robotic surgery can flex even more than a human hand so there is far more precision than with regular keyhole surgery. We have the technology (machine) in our city, it cost £1m, and in the future it will have a very useful application but at the moment he personally prefers open surgery.
I asked if he could see what he was doing or if he did it by feel (remembering a previous post in here). He was surprised at my question, of COURSE he could see what he was doing! In early days it might have been done by feel but he relies on what he sees and his experience to do everything. His colleagues do the same.
His opinion seems to accord with the information you sent.
Mary
callalily - 20 Nov 2006 21:20 GMT > > Hello all, > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Mary You are welcome for the info. You may not know it being British but dr catalona is one of a few top doctors on this subject.
Hope spouse is doing well.
Leah
doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 05:19 GMT >> Hello all, >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >than can be seen using cameras, which only give a two dimensional view on a >screen. Then he is not very familiar with the Divinci surgery because the Divinci RLRP provides a 3 D view of the surgical field.
>However, he said, the robotic system was better than regular keyhole >surgery. The 'hands' used in robotic surgery can flex even more than a human [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Mary Mary Fisher - 25 Nov 2006 08:59 GMT > On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:05:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher" ...
>>When we met our surgeon last Tuesday I asked about keyhole surgery. He >>said [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Then he is not very familiar with the Divinci surgery because the > Divinci RLRP provides a 3 D view of the surgical field. We call it robotic surgery and I reported what he said about that in the next paragraph - which you left in :-)
And I think you mean 'da Vinci'.
>>However, he said, the robotic system was better than regular keyhole >>surgery. The 'hands' used in robotic surgery can flex even more than a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>prefers >>open surgery. doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 05:34 GMT >Hello all, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >********************************** I believe Dr. Catalona is an excellent surgeon and very knowledgeable about PCa. However, he suffers from the same problem many practitioners of a particular mode of operation suffer from, non-familiarity with other modes. I can't say Dr. C's opinion is wrong, only that it is just his opinion and he does not support it with data.
My bias - I went thru the usual evaluation of treatment options prior to deciding on my DiVinci RLRP a year ago. One thing that I did not find was evidence of poorer outcome from Robotic compared to non-robotic regular. To the contrary, it seemed that doctors who had done thousands of open RRP and who tried the DiVinci became convinced that the advantages of the robotic were real and that the disadvantages often stated by non-practitioners didn't seem to materialize. As one of them said (sorry I don't recall the specific's of who said this or where I read it), it's true you don't have the "feel" from actually touching things, but there is feedback in the system and you do develop a different sort of feel for what's going on, and with the clearer, magnified, and less bloody surgical field you have a better view of what the heck you are doing. It seems that doctors well experienced in open RP who try the robotic stick with the robotic.
I will again state my bias by pointing to the place where I had my surgery done, The Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. Go to
http://www.henryfordhealth.org/19085.cfm
and you will see some real statistics not just opinions. Also note that in comparing apples to apples the robotic seems to come out on top in all categories. In comparing "typically experienced surgeons" to "best in class", (apples to oranges) the "best in class" do better at getting the cancer compared to the "typical" robotic surgeon. That's hardly a surprise as you will usually hear over and over again is to not get overly concerned over technique - you want a good surgeon whether he's good at open, lap, or robotic. Take a good open surgeon over a novice robotic, etc.
Again, this is not a criticism of Dr. Cantalona, I just think there is more to it.
ron - 25 Nov 2006 18:29 GMT doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com wrote...snip...
> I will again state my bias by pointing to the place where I had my > surgery done, The Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit. Go to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > surgeon whether he's good at open, lap, or robotic. Take a good open > surgeon over a novice robotic, etc. My reading of the data in the link provided is somewhat different. Let's focus on the "cancer removal" lines in the Tables as this would be the most important comparative item for many seeking treatment. The first Table compares cancer removal for "Open Surgery at Henry Ford" to "Robotic Surgery (VIP) at Henry Ford." The former are the combined results of 8 surgeons. The reference behind that data (reference 3 in the second Table) points out that "every open surgeon had conducted at least 100 RRPs." Dr. Menon, one of the best robotic surgeons in the world conducted all of the robotic surgeries. 100 is not a large number of open surgeries. Having some number of lesser experienced surgeons in the "open" group, makes this an apples to oranges comparison, in my view. Further complicating comparison is the fact that margin status was determined differently between the two groups. In the "open" group, margin status was determined by standard post-op pathology. In the "robotic" group, less exacting intra-operative pathology margin status was used.
To me, the second Table seems to be more of an apples to apples comparison. Here, "Best in Class for Open Surgery" is compared against "VIP at Henry Ford." In this case, the open data seems to suggest better cancer control than the Henry Ford robotic data.
Any good practioner believes his or her approach is the best way, otherwise they'd be doing something else. So as you note, there is some built in bias when we look at comparative data collected by an individual or single institution. Hopefully, articles by entities such as Medscape would be less prone to bias. A recent Medscape review
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507264?src=mp
noted that "The positive surgical margin rate continues to be higher with laparoscopic and robotic prostatectomy compared with the open approach.[54,69,70] It is unclear how this will translate into disease-free and overall survival, since the laparoscopic and robotic experience is still immature. Nonetheless, it is cause for concern."
In my reading of this matter, the second Table in the Henry Ford Robotic link and this Medscape article suggest possible cancer control issues with robotic surgery...Best wishes and good health, ron
Mary Fisher - 25 Nov 2006 19:52 GMT > doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com wrote...snip... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> surgeon whether he's good at open, lap, or robotic. Take a good open >> surgeon over a novice robotic, etc.
> My reading of the data in the link provided is somewhat different. > Let's focus on the "cancer removal" lines in the Tables as this would [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Robotic link and this Medscape article suggest possible cancer control > issues with robotic surgery...Best wishes and good health, ron An interesting post, thanks.
Mary
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