Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Catalona on Open Surg v. Robotic?

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
callalily - 20 Nov 2006 18:41 GMT
Hello all,

This is a subject that comes up all the time.  I recommend that all
people considering surgery read this.  I know Catalona is one of the
best.

In the Fall 2006 edition of QUEST, published by the
Urological Research Foundation, Dr. Catalona gave his
views on the effectiveness of robotic prostatectomy in
removing cancer and in preserving potency.  His
response can be found at the following website under
Q&A:

http://www.drcatalona.com

**********************************

Question:  I have been hearing a lot of good things
about DaVinci Robotics for removing the prostate.  I
know that you do not practice the procedure, but what
would you say about its benefits for preserving
potency and continence?  And which patients should
consider it as a treatment alternative?

Answer:    In my opinion, the robotic prostatectomy
(often called the DaVinci prostatectomy) is not as
effective as the traditional open prostatectomy for
simultaneously accomplishing complete removal of
cancer and preserving potency.

One of the reasons is that the robot lacks the "human
touch" and it is not possible to appreciate how the
prostate gland feels and how readily it separates from
the nerves and other surrounding tissues. The robot
does not handle the prostate gland as gently as the
human hand, and not infrequently the robot punctures
the capsule of the prostate, leading to positive
surgical margins.

Another limitation is that with the robotic
prostatectomy, the prostate is removed by burning it
out with electrocautery or a so-called harmonic
scalpel that cuts by heat, and if the heat is too near
the nerves, it irreversibly damages them. Also, if the
burning is too close to the prostate gland, it risks
cutting into the prostate, resulting in positive
surgical margins and possibly leaving cancer behind.

Advocates of robotic surgery say that there is less
bleeding and greater magnification with robotic
surgery. However, excellent magnification and
visualization can be provided with open surgery, and
with an experienced surgeon, few patients require
blood transfusions from another person.

With robotic surgery, it is more difficult to suture
and apply hemostatic clips and it is more difficult to
perform a lymph node dissection.

Enthusiasts of the robotic procedure claim it is "less
invasive" and has a quicker recovery time. But
actually it is more invasive because the surgeon has
to go through the peritoneal cavity to get to the
prostate (a more invasive approach associated for
greater risk for injury to the bowel, major blood
vessels, and the ureters and a greater risk for later
intestinal obstruction from adhesions).  Usually 6
one-inch incisions are made for robotic surgery, while
for open surgery, one 4 to 5 inch incision is made
that does not enter into the peritoneal cavity. With
the smaller incision now frequently used for open
surgery, there is no material difference in the
recovery time and return to normal activity. .  .

The complications with robotic prostatectomy are more
serious than with open prostatectomy and they lead to
more postoperative emergency room visits, more
re-hospitalizations, and more re-operations.

I believe that with the robotic or laparoscopic
prostatectomy, the patient and the surgeon have to
make more of a stark choice between removing all of
the cancer or preserving the nerves to maintain
potency.  I believe that there is a greater likelihood
of accomplishing both objects with the increased
access provided by the open approach.

Most importantly, however, the robotic prostatectomy
has no track record in terms of long-term cancer
control.  If small amounts of cancer are left behind,
it may not become apparent for years.

Patients sometimes tell me that they know someone who
underwent a robotic prostatectomy a few months ago and
seems to be doing fine. However, the final outcome of
the operation may not become apparent for up to 10
years. Thus, long-term cancer cure rates are needed
before one can truly evaluate the effectiveness of the
operation.

In sum, I do not believe the robotic prostatectomy is
as safe a cancer operation as open radical
prostatectomy, and I do not believe that nerve sparing
can be as readily or safely accomplished.  For
patients, the most important outcomes of radical
prostatectomy are: Is he cured of his cancer?  Is he
continent?  Can he have erections sufficient for
intercourse?

These questions have  been well documented for open
rostatectomy.  The jury is still out with
laparoscopic/robotic prostatectomy.

The most important factor is the surgeon and not the
technique.

LFC
Mary Fisher - 20 Nov 2006 20:05 GMT
> Hello all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> http://www.drcatalona.com

Thank you for this.

When we met our surgeon last Tuesday I asked about keyhole surgery. He said
that he didn't like it because he could see a lot more in three dimensions
than can be seen using cameras, which only give a two dimensional view on a
screen.

However, he said, the robotic system was better than regular keyhole
surgery. The 'hands' used in robotic surgery can flex even more than a human
hand so there is far more precision than with regular keyhole surgery. We
have the technology (machine) in our city, it cost £1m, and in the future it
will have a very useful application but at the moment he personally prefers
open surgery.

I asked if he could see what he was doing or if he did it by feel
(remembering a previous post in here). He was surprised at my question, of
COURSE he could see what he was doing! In early days it might have been done
by feel but he relies on what he sees and his experience to do everything.
His colleagues do the same.

His opinion seems to accord with the information you sent.

Mary
callalily - 20 Nov 2006 21:20 GMT
> > Hello all,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Mary

You are welcome for the info.  You may not know it being British but dr
catalona is one of a few top doctors on this subject.

Hope spouse is doing well.

Leah
doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 05:19 GMT
>> Hello all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>than can be seen using cameras, which only give a two dimensional view on a
>screen.

Then he is not very familiar with the Divinci surgery because the
Divinci RLRP provides a 3 D view of the surgical field.

>However, he said, the robotic system was better than regular keyhole
>surgery. The 'hands' used in robotic surgery can flex even more than a human
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Mary
Mary Fisher - 25 Nov 2006 08:59 GMT
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:05:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"

...

>>When we met our surgeon last Tuesday I asked about keyhole surgery. He
>>said
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Then he is not very familiar with the Divinci surgery because the
> Divinci RLRP provides a 3 D view of the surgical field.

We call it robotic surgery and I reported what he said about that in the
next paragraph - which you left in :-)

And I think you mean 'da Vinci'.

>>However, he said, the robotic system was better than regular keyhole
>>surgery. The 'hands' used in robotic surgery can flex even more than a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>prefers
>>open surgery.
doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 05:34 GMT
>Hello all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>**********************************
I believe Dr. Catalona is an excellent surgeon and very knowledgeable
about PCa.  However, he suffers from the same problem many
practitioners of a particular mode of operation suffer from,
non-familiarity with other modes.  I can't say Dr. C's opinion is
wrong, only that it is just his opinion and he does not support it
with data.

My bias - I went thru the usual evaluation of treatment options prior
to deciding on my DiVinci RLRP a year ago.  One thing that I did not
find was evidence of poorer outcome from Robotic compared to
non-robotic regular.  To the contrary, it seemed that doctors who had
done thousands of open RRP and who tried the DiVinci became convinced
that the advantages of the robotic were real and that the
disadvantages often stated by non-practitioners didn't seem to
materialize.  As one of them said (sorry I don't recall the specific's
of who said this or where I read it), it's true you don't have the
"feel" from actually touching things, but there is feedback in the
system and you do develop a different sort of feel for what's going
on, and with the clearer, magnified, and less bloody surgical field
you have a better view of what the heck you are doing.  It seems that
doctors well experienced in open RP who try the robotic stick with the
robotic.

I will again state my bias by pointing to the place where I had my
surgery done,  The Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit.  Go to

http://www.henryfordhealth.org/19085.cfm

and you will see some real statistics not just opinions.  Also note
that in comparing apples to apples the robotic seems to come out on
top in all categories.  In comparing "typically experienced surgeons"
to "best in class", (apples to oranges)  the "best in class" do better
at getting the cancer compared to the "typical" robotic surgeon.
That's hardly a surprise as you will usually hear   over and over
again is to not get overly concerned over technique - you want a good
surgeon whether he's good at open, lap, or robotic.  Take a good open
surgeon over a novice robotic, etc.

Again, this is not a criticism of Dr. Cantalona, I just think there is
more to it.
ron - 25 Nov 2006 18:29 GMT
doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com wrote...snip...

> I will again state my bias by pointing to the place where I had my
> surgery done,  The Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit.  Go to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> surgeon whether he's good at open, lap, or robotic.  Take a good open
> surgeon over a novice robotic, etc.

My reading of the data in the link provided is somewhat different.
Let's focus on the "cancer removal" lines in the Tables as this would
be the most important comparative item for many seeking treatment.  The
first Table compares cancer removal for "Open Surgery at Henry Ford" to
"Robotic Surgery (VIP) at Henry Ford."  The former are the combined
results of 8 surgeons.  The reference behind that data (reference 3 in
the second Table) points out that  "every open surgeon had conducted at
least 100 RRPs."  Dr. Menon, one of the best robotic surgeons in the
world conducted all of the robotic surgeries.  100 is not a large
number of open surgeries.  Having some number of lesser experienced
surgeons in the "open" group, makes this an apples to oranges
comparison, in my view.  Further complicating comparison is the fact
that margin status was determined differently between the two groups.
In the "open" group, margin status was determined by standard post-op
pathology.  In the "robotic" group, less exacting intra-operative
pathology margin status was used.

To me, the second Table seems to be more of an apples to apples
comparison.  Here, "Best in Class for Open Surgery" is compared against
"VIP at Henry Ford."  In this case, the open data seems to suggest
better cancer control than the Henry Ford robotic data.

Any good practioner believes his or her approach is the best way,
otherwise they'd be doing something else.  So as you note, there is
some built in bias when we look at comparative data collected by an
individual or single institution.  Hopefully, articles by entities such
as Medscape would be less prone to bias.  A recent Medscape review

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507264?src=mp

noted that "The positive surgical margin rate continues to be higher
with laparoscopic and robotic prostatectomy compared with the open
approach.[54,69,70]  It is unclear how this will translate into
disease-free and overall survival, since the laparoscopic and robotic
experience is still immature. Nonetheless, it is cause for concern."

In my reading of this matter, the second Table in the Henry Ford
Robotic link and this Medscape article suggest possible cancer control
issues with robotic surgery...Best wishes and good health, ron
Mary Fisher - 25 Nov 2006 19:52 GMT
> doubleowseven@theplacecalledyahoo.com wrote...snip...
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> surgeon whether he's good at open, lap, or robotic.  Take a good open
>> surgeon over a novice robotic, etc.

> My reading of the data in the link provided is somewhat different.
> Let's focus on the "cancer removal" lines in the Tables as this would
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Robotic link and this Medscape article suggest possible cancer control
> issues with robotic surgery...Best wishes and good health, ron

An interesting post, thanks.

Mary
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.