[Hello Just--

I'm not suggesting people run off to brazil although it would be a lot
more fun IMO than the "conventional" treatments used now and anyway,
people spend their money on all sorts of things when they are
desperate. My point was Hey, I have qi-kong in my backyard, I am not
going all the way to china for that.

Of course I believe in conventional medicine and would go there first
but I try to keep an open mind on the subject (I think there recently
was a feature story about this "psychic surgery" in the NY Times
magazine and normally they don't publish looney stuff).  Science knows
virtually nothing about human consciousness and discoveries are being
made every day in this area.  For example, it is very likely that
people are indeed "wired" for religion.  That research has come from a
couple of a couple of cognitive neuroscientists at the Univ. of Penn.
Personally, I don't find anything at all surprising about this.  It
really doesn't matter what the Truth is.  Religion has been shown
repeatedly to make people happier and cause them to live longer -- so
why wouldn't it be hard-wired into us.  Anything that helps people
survive and reproduce is useful.  Besides, religion seems to sprout in
even the most hostile soil and when you try to stamp it out it just
grows back!  It must serve a purpose besides causing people to hate one
another.

Also, the "healer" I mentioned doesn't claim to cure everybody.  He
says that sometimes it's just not possible.   In some ways this is not
very different from the buddhist idea of karma. In other words, some
things can't be changed no matter what the person does.  I actually
like this concept because when something bad happens to me I think
maybe it's my just reward for doing something bad to someone else in a
previous life.  At least in that case I deserve it for some reason
(however lame).

BTW according to Buddhism (I've studied a little zen) people with
"higher" souls die younger than others so at least those who are ill
can consider themselves more spiritually evolved than the average
person.

Neither would I but I'm curious.  I have seen this story told in
respectable sources like NY times and others.

But I certainly  would enjoy the  trip  -- that's one country i haven't
seen yet.  We have a Danish friend who just adores Lisbon -- in fact he
bought us a Lisbon tour guide even though we had no plans to go
anywhere!

I'm in no way putting the Goodhousekeeping stamp of approval on this
"healer"but I thought it was fun to talk about it   There were some top
scientists present at his healing sessions who said they could find no
conventional explanation for his results.  And these scientists were
from very prestigious institutions.  I don't think they're all crazy.
Sometimes we have to think beyond the box.

This "healer"  claims to be "channeling" knowledge from some "spirit."
Well, scientists would agree that  we don't know the slightest bit
about human consciousness so as far as I am concerned they are not in a
position to  rule anything out. I mean before Einstein nobody knew of
relativity, etc.

Cognitive neuroscience is finding out new things about human
consciousness all the time.  There are 2 researchers at the Univ. of
Penn. who have argued that people are indeed "wired" for religion.
Religion serves a purpose. People who practice it are happier and live
longer than others. So if this is an advantage in survival, why would
it not be "hard-wired" into the brain.  Who cares what the Truth is?
Faith is  beneficial and I would be glad to have even a mustard seed of
it.

Going back to the "healer", one scientist who was present at the
healings and was interviewed later opined that whay we call the 'soul"
might be explainable in terms of quantum physics. Most people certainly
are not in a position to refute him.

We all know anyway that people  who have exhausted conventional
treatments do all sorts of unproven things like buying nutritional
supplements and worse. Even if it gives the person hope it's serving a
purpose.

Why do you think people get "cured" going to fatima, lourdes, etc.

You assume it's only that those people believe they will be cured and
so the "cure" is all in their mind or else their mind is influencing
thir body.  Few people disagree that one's thoughts and feelings can
affect them physically.  Emotions are widely believed to influence the
functioning of the immune system.

I think the scientist Stephen Jay Gould said it best in a book about
this subject:  "Science and religion are completely different
"magesteria" (fancy word for "departments').  One simply cannot
comprehend the other. But  he strongly urged that each should  treat
the other with respect.    Many people who have not experienced  faith
personally just don't understand how intelligent people can be
believers. This is because you can't use the same "hardware" to process
both .

Well, I'm sure I've made a complete fool of myself but  it was fun
talking to you.

All the best,

Leah

p.s. i'm not looking forward to getting critical emails on this
subject.  I'm not arguing.  This is  just one person's musings.  I
never once said any of this was the absolute Truth.

Hi Just,

Thanks for your response. You fail to go deeper into your heart where
this message came from and should be received. You only read with your
mind not your heart. Only the heart can understand.

Regards,
Sam

Every move, of course not. But my personal efforts have made many
GIGANTIC changes -- most of them very positive -- in my life. Examples
have included achieving every job and location I sought throughout my
adult life including during 20 years in the military, early retirement
with no financial worries, and living on an adrenaline high for decades
and counting without -- so far -- crippling or killing myself.

You be as fatalistic as you wish; I choose to take charge of my life
whenever possible, and it usually is.

Somebody gong this guy.

I.P.

Hi Steve,

The scum is responding.

It is not about money, his charges are less than USD10/- per session
and some people are cured in 3 sessions, rarely does one need more than
100 sessions and that would still be only USD1,000/-. It's actually
about how much you value your body. Serious illnesses are a a big kick
from the body to wake up from the dream of mind which neglects the
body. You have to work too, you have to do a simple half an hour qigong
exercise a number of times a day to go with the treatment. Actually the
teacher only guides and assist you to heal yourself. The human body has
a lot of wisdom but is subjucated by the overally active mind that does
not allow it space to heal itself.

The principle of the 5,000 year old Qigong or ChiKung is based on the
Oneness and Wholeness of Existence/Being. We are in essence not
separated but are connected and animated by Qi (Chi) or Energy of Life.
So it's based on love. Not the love that one individual loving another
individual but that love that knows there is only one loving oneself.
Something like love your neighbour as yourself not as you would love
yourself.

Regards,
Samuel

On November 8, I wrote:

(ka-snip)

Oops. Meant to say "please do *not* give....."

Senior moment I guess...

Regards,

Steve J

Note to Steve Jordan:

   I understand that this is almost certainly fruitless, but I
   do this because I am a deep believer in science, and a deep
   believer that we have an obligation to try to promote a
   scientific worldview, even if it seems hopeless.  Maybe one
   Usenet reader in Singapore or elsewhere who is on the fence
   will read these words and decide to seek medical treatment
   for his cancer.  If so, what I'm doing here is worthwhile.

Sam:

Let me begin with the science of cancer.

Cancer is a disease caused by mutations in DNA.  The cancers of
older people such as prostate cancer, breast cancer, lung cancer,
etc., are caused by an accumulation of mutations.  There are many
possible root causes of those mutations including inherent
genetic defects, exposure to carcinogens, or just the
accumulation of effects caused by growing old.  These mutations
cause certain genes that should be "expressed" not to be so, or
other genes that should be "repressed" (not expressed) not to be
so.

The result of these changes is that certain cells in the body
that should not divide and replicate do divide and replicate -
out of control.

Qigong is about breathing exercises.  But there is nothing about
breathing technique that can affect DNA, and certainly nothing
that can heal it.  All of the successful cancer therapies,
without a single exception that I am aware of, are based on
a few basic principles.  They try to kill the mutant cells,
aiming at a cure.  Or they might aim at blocking some vital
chemical from reaching them that they require in order to divide
and grow - aiming at suspending the cancer from continuing its
growth.  Surgery, radiation and chemotherapy attempt to kill the
cancer.  Immune system therapies try to kill the cancer by
stimulating the immune system to attack the cancer cells.
Hormone therapy attempts to block a vital chemical from reaching
the cancer.

It is conceivable that qigong could contribute to a cure in some
patients by generally stimulating the immune system.  It might
contribute, for example, if depression and anxiety were
suppresing the patient's immune system and qigong enabled the
patient to relax and allow his body to function more normally.
Perhaps there are other, similar mind/body effects or even
defective breathing problems that qigong could help with.
However I would be surprised if this led to a cure in many
patients.  The patient's immune system has already failed to kill
his cancer and, unless there is something wrong with the immune
system, getting it in order won't stop the disease.  Certainly
qigong will not place antigen target markers on the cancer cells
to increase the likelihood of the immune system killing them -
which is what most immune system therapies I've read about try to
do.  At best qigong should be practiced as an adjunct to
scientific medical treatment, not as a substitute for it.

You ask how I know this?  Because I have read books about cancer
written by people who have spent their lives studying it using
all the most advanced techniques available in modern science.

Could those scientists be wrong?  Anything is possible, but a
patient who bet his life that a qigong practitioner who has never
studied medical science is right, while all of the most
intelligent, well read, well trained, experienced, scientists are
wrong would be almost certain to lose that bet.

You might ask, How can I know this from reading books without
actually trying it?  The answer to that has to do with whether or
not we have a scientific view of the world.

If someone told you he could fly to the moon by using qigong,
would you have to try it in order to figure out that the man is
either lying or crazy?  If a man told you you could make water
flow up hill, look through brick walls, lift 10,000 pounds, run
faster than a racehorse, or stop bullets by using qigong, would
you have to try it to know that the man was either lying or
crazy?

Curing cancer is a similarly difficult problem.  It can be done
in an increasing number of cases, but it's hard and it requires a
lot more than qigong.

If a man says he can fly to the moon using qigong, there are
several possibilities:

 1. He may be telling the literal truth.

 2. He may be very ignorant, deluded, or crazy - believing what
    he says, but not really able to do it.

 3. He may be a liar.

Which is most likely?  Which is next most likely?  Which is
extremely unlikely?

If qigong does not cure cancer, then avoiding medical treatment
and trying qigong as a cure for cancer is a death sentence.  By
the time you find out it doesn't work, it's too late.  That's why
I think that promoting qigong as a cure for cancer is a lot like
murder.

If you wish to practice qigong, there is nothing wrong with that.
It is harmless and may give you mental and physical benefits.
But if you tell someone who has cancer that they should stop
medical treatment because qigong will cure them - you've
condemned that person to death.

Now, if what I said is true, and I can assure you that most
scientifically trained people would agree that it is, the qigong
practitioner you refer people to must know it.  He must know it
because he's been treating people for a long time.  Some of those
people probably never had cancer at all, but the ones that did
will have died, and the qigong practitioner must know that.  But
he doesn't say that on his website.  To my mind, that makes him a
liar as well as a murderer.

As for the fact that he only charges $10, all that says to me is
that he holds life to be very cheap.

Sam,

If you, really want to help cancer patients, then I strongly urge
you to read scientific books about cancer, learn about it, and
recommend serious medical treatment to cancer patients.

    Alan