Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2006
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limey - 31 Oct 2006 02:25 GMT My husband was given his first Lupron shot at the end of August, after his biopsy and a couple of weeks on Casodex. Prior to that, I had mentioned he had a PSA of 66.5.
Today, he received the results of his latest PSA test: 0.6, where the range was stated to be 0.0- 4.0.
That sounds good, doesn't it, but I really don't know what that means. Since the prostate cancer is all through his bones, will the low PSA reading have any bearing on that? Sorry for the questions, but we're just trying to understand. This is such an unknown path we're on.
Dora
 Signature limey113@yahoo.com
I.P. Freely - 31 Oct 2006 02:33 GMT > My husband was given his first Lupron shot at the end of August, after his > biopsy and a couple of weeks on Casodex. Prior to that, I had mentioned he [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > understand. > This is such an unknown path we're on. It means the therapy is working as intended, and that certainly IS a good thing. It's not going to cure him, but it should give him some relief and postpone the inevitable by some unknown period of time. We're all pulling for you two.
I.P.
Steve Kramer - 31 Oct 2006 02:56 GMT > My husband was given his first Lupron shot at the end of August, after his > biopsy and a couple of weeks on Casodex. Prior to that, I had mentioned [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > reading have any bearing on that? Sorry for the questions, but we're just > trying to understand. I am sorry, Dora, but I must have missed your husband's diagnosis -- not that I thought there was much doubt what that would be.
Advanced prostate cancer with bone mets is really bad news. Relative to that diagnosis, however, dropping from 66.5 to 0.6 is fantastic! I think very few people get a 99.1% drop on their first hormone therapy. I also think that studies have born out that the speed and depth of the drop is an indicator of long term prognosis. Your ultimate desire would be <0.04, but <2.0 is good as well.
And, yes, if the PSA goes down, the bone mets get smaller and, often, some disappear.
> This is such an unknown path we're on. Stick with us Dora. We were all at the beginning of that same path at one time; we are all somewhere along that path without full knowledge of what is at the end; and we're all here help others through the harder trails.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
limey - 31 Oct 2006 17:27 GMT >> My husband was given his first Lupron shot at the end of August, after >> his biopsy and a couple of weeks on Casodex. Prior to that, I had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I am sorry, Dora, but I must have missed your husband's diagnosis -- not > that I thought there was much doubt what that would be. Results of the biopsy were: 11 samples were 9, the twelfth was a 10.
The bone scan shows cancer everywhere - his knees, his jaw, shoulder blades, ribs, up and down his spine, bad in the lower back, plus the "neck" of the hip bone. Very painful, too. Scary, since the uro says the lower spine is really affected, which could result in paralysis down the road. What cheerful news. Can't they give any bone strengthening medication? (I've been giving him my calcium pills.)
> Advanced prostate cancer with bone mets is really bad news. Relative to > that diagnosis, however, dropping from 66.5 to 0.6 is fantastic! I think [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And, yes, if the PSA goes down, the bone mets get smaller and, often, some > disappear. Steve, that's really encouraging. My son has been taking my husband for all the procedures but I'm ready now to accompany him- with my own set of questions!
>> This is such an unknown path we're on. > > Stick with us Dora. We were all at the beginning of that same path at one > time; we are all somewhere along that path without full knowledge of what > is at the end; and we're all here help others through the harder trails. Steve, thank you so much for your info and your encouragement. It's so good to know that this is a group I can turn to for information, advice and encouragement. Hang in there yourself, too, having looked at your stats.
Dora
Steve Kramer - 31 Oct 2006 18:25 GMT > Results of the biopsy were: 11 samples were 9, the twelfth was a 10. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the road. What cheerful news. Can't they give any bone strengthening > medication? (I've been giving him my calcium pills.) You have described every prostate cancer patient's (and their doctor's) worst nightmare. I am sure when your oncologist saw the Gleason 10 and the mets throughout, his only concern was knocking it down ASAP. If there are mets throughout his skeletal structure, you can bet there are bets in soft tissue. When it gets into (and grows within) the liver or brain, it's lights out. So, your doc went after it with the best one-two punch known to current medicine: Casodex and Lupron.
Frankly, if he had not been successful, your husband would not have had enough time left to worry about paralysis.
However, he was successful in knocking it down to 0.6. He can now start looking at other issues and treatments, all of which, I am sorry to say, are palliative.
Some of the larger mets that are not surrounded by sensitive and vital organs might be radiated to kill off the cancer, especially if they are causing pain. But, keep in mind, radiation kills cells indiscriminantly and, therefore, comes with its own baggage. Surgery to reduce masses are not unheard of.
Also, the onc may prescribe a medication such as Fosamax in order to help the damaged bone regenerate. At least one study showed that this also helped fight the cancer. Side effects may include nausea. Other side effects are long term.
> Steve, that's really encouraging. My son has been taking my husband for > all the procedures but I'm ready now to accompany him- with my own set of > questions! Absolutely! Your husband, if he is like most of this, is missing most of the cognitive input on this. The stunning that cancer diagnoses does to men prevents him from functioning thoughtfully for some time. While I thought I was fully functional, I now know that I was 80% at best for almost a year. Some literally require someone else to research the disease and make decisions for them.
You need also read up on it so that you can search intelligently for studies. There is so much going on in prostate cancer research now (on both sides of the pond) that you should have no problem finding one or two or more for which your husband would qualify. Obviously, no one has been cured yet in these, but some have had their lives extended and/or pain reduced.
> Steve, thank you so much for your info and your encouragement. It's so > good to know that this is a group I can turn to for information, advice > and encouragement. > Hang in there yourself, too, having looked at your stats. Thanks, Dora, but right now I am almost euphoric with my stats. I just may live another ten years.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 PSA <0.04 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
limey - 31 Oct 2006 20:20 GMT > You have described every prostate cancer patient's (and their doctor's) > worst nightmare. I am sure when your oncologist saw the Gleason 10 and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it's lights out. So, your doc went after it with the best one-two punch > known to current medicine: Casodex and Lupron. Yes, sadly, my cousin (I'm English here in the U.S. and he was in the UK) lost his fight last year. It finally went to his liver and kidneys and the end was very swift after a long siege.
> Frankly, if he had not been successful, your husband would not have had > enough time left to worry about paralysis. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> My son has been taking my husband for all the procedures but I'm ready >> now to accompany him- with my own set of questions!
> Absolutely! Your husband, if he is like most of this, is missing most of > the cognitive input on this. The stunning that cancer diagnoses does to > men prevents him from functioning thoughtfully for some time. While I > thought I was fully functional, I now know that I was 80% at best for > almost a year. Some literally require someone else to research the disease > and make decisions for them. Yes, it has really knocked the wind out of his sails. However, rather than having a "contingent" go to the urologist for the biopsy and cystoscopy, my son went in my place. His thought was that my husband might need physical support afterwards. Also, he's a Ph.D. biochemist so was able to intepret all the medical terms, etc., and ask the right questions. However, at this point (I think) it will just be checkups, so I'll take him to those and store up my own questions for the M.D.
> You need also read up on it so that you can search intelligently for > studies. There is so much going on in prostate cancer research now (on > both sides of the pond) that you should have no problem finding one or two > or more for which your husband would qualify. Obviously, no one has been > cured yet in these, but some have had their lives extended and/or pain > reduced. On the last visit, the uro said he was presenting my husband's case to a group of about 20 urologists who meet once a month for discussion, to determine the options. That was good news.
When I first wrote to this newsgroup and one other (sci.med.prostate.cancer - I believe), one responder was C. Palmer, who gave me a lot of advice and loads of references which were really helpful. I also bought Dr. Walsh's book, as well as "Prostate Cancer for Dummies". The "Dummies" book made things very understandable, and this dummy is not afraid to admit it! <G>
>> Steve, thank you so much for your info and your encouragement. It's so >> good to know that this is a group I can turn to for information, advice [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks, Dora, but right now I am almost euphoric with my stats. I just > may live another ten years. Terrific news! Keep up that trend. Dora
c palmer - 31 Oct 2006 19:16 GMT Advanced prostate cancer Endocrine therapies and palliative measures
This article reviews the key points in managing metastatic prostate cancer, including risk-benefit considerations of systemic treatment. The authors point out that the primary care physician not only provides direct care, but also serves as a sounding board and acts as an intermediary between the urologist and the patient.
Metastatic, or advanced, prostate cancer is a clinical entity distinct from other forms of cancer in a number of ways.
1. The urologist is usually the key treating physician for patients with advanced prostate cancer. With most types of metastatic cancer in the United States, the oncologist is the primary treating physician. But with prostate cancer, it is the urologist who not only makes the initial diagnosis and institutes local therapy, but also usually first detects the presence of metastatic disease and informs the patient and family. In addition, the urologist often initiates systemic therapy, almost always with endocrine, or hormone, therapy. When metastatic disease is refractory to hormone therapy, some patients are referred to an oncologist, but even in that situation, the urologist may continue to provide follow-up care.
Having the urologist as the treating physician for patients with metastatic disease offers the advantage of continuity of care, because a long-standing clinical relationship is often in place when advanced disease is detected. This is particularly important when a patient has prostate cancer, a situation in which difficult quality-of-life issues demand that decisions be made on an individual basis. Specifically, the degree of proactivity in therapy is a common and challenging issue in treatment of metastatic prostate cancer, and a close, long-term working relationship with the patient and family is extremely helpful in decision making.
2. The relatively slow progression of metastatic prostate cancer and the advanced age of many patients are key factors in decision making. Advanced prostate cancer can be a devastating clinical condition, but the natural progression differs from that of most solid tumors. Before the advent of testing for levels of serum prostate-specific antigen (PSA), when metastatic disease was diagnosed by positive bone scans and symptoms such as bone pain, the 5-year relative survival rate for patients was 28%; this rate is far greater than that seen with other common cancers that have metastasized (table 1). In the 1990s, metastatic prostate cancer is usually diagnosed much earlier because of serial PSA monitoring, so survival, and hence the period of treatment, is even more prolonged.
Table 1. Five-year relative survival rates for patients with common cancers (1983-1987) Prostate 28% Lung 1.3% Colon 6% Pancreas 1.4% Breast (female) 17.8% Adapted from Miller BA et al, eds. Cancer statistics review. Bethesda: National Cancer Institute, 1992. US Department of Health and Human Services, NIH publication No. 92-2789.
The tumor biology of this condition, then, must be factored into the patient's overall clinical status to determine a treatment plan. Elderly patients and those with significant comorbid disease may be treated more conservatively than patients who have a longer life expectancy.
3. Endocrine therapy is the first and primary means of systemic treatment of patients with metastatic prostate cancer. Other than breast cancer, prostate cancer is the only common cancer in which endocrine therapy is a mainstay of treatment. Standard initial treatment of patients with metastases is with some form of this "kinder, gentler" therapy, often for prolonged periods. The strategy is beneficial in most patients, and the minimal side effects mean that patients receiving endocrine therapy often can live more comfortably than do many patients who are receiving chemotherapy. The major differences between the treatment options are side effects and cost. Because the urologist is usually the treating physician, the primary care physician is likely to be in the role of either advising the patient about the preferred choice of therapy or assisting in management of side effects.
The remainder of this article reviews key points in the management of metastatic prostate cancer, including the rationale for and risk-benefit considerations of systemic treatment, common side effects of hormone therapies, and methods of palliation.
Endocrine therapy
More than 50 years ago, the critical relationship was identified between serum testosterone levels and the growth of prostatic tissue. Clinically useful remissions of metastatic prostate cancer were achieved after bilateral orchiectomy and by oral administration of estrogens. These treatments have now been superseded by newer endocrine therapies that have similar pathophysiologic rationales but less treatmentinduced morbidity.
The key physiologic pathways of endocrine therapy are depicted in figure 1. About 95% of total serum testosterone is produced by the testes. The remaining 5% is accounted for by secretion of adrenal androgens that are converted to testosterone. Both testicular activity and adrenal activity are controlled by the hypothalamus and the anterior pituitary gland. Circulating testosterone is bound in plasma by proteins, and the small unbound fraction passively diffuses into prostate cells, where it is converted by the enzyme 5-alpha-reductase to dihydrotestosterone, which in turn is bound in the cytoplasm and transported to the nucleus, where stimulation of cell division occurs. The main forms of endocrine therapy for prostate cancer interfere in some manner with this basic pathway of androgen stimulation of prostate cancer cells. About 75% of patients with metastatic prostate cancer experience tumor response to the initial form of endocrine therapy. Bilateral orchiectomy--This form of endocrine therapy is the standard by which the effectiveness of other treatments is judged. The advantages are a relatively low cost, lack of a need for long-term patient compliance with a regimen, and the immediacy of change in the patient's hormonal milieu. The chief disadvantage relates to an alteration in body image.
It is important to clarify for the patient exactly what the procedure entails and to stress that the scrotum and penis are left intact. The term "castration" should be avoided. The surgical procedure itself has a minimal risk of complications. As with other forms of androgen ablation therapy, the major side effects are loss of libido, impotence, and hot flashes. Testicular prostheses can help to reduce psychological morbidity, but due to patient preferences, they are generally not used.
Although bilateral orchiectomy has been replaced by use of luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone (LHRH) agonists as usual first-line endocrine therapy for metastatic prostate cancer, it continues to be a viable option for patients who are not emotionally troubled by this approach. This therapy is particularly favorable for patients who do not have ready access to medical care or cannot afford the cost of medications required in other forms of endocrine therapy. Estrogens--The second "classic" form of endocrine therapy is administration of oral estrogen preparations. Although there is some controversy about the main mechanism of action of estrogens, it is generally accepted that the key is negative feedback on the hypothalamus.
This leads to decreased secretion of LHRH, which lowers gonadotropin secretion from the pituitary. The result is inhibition of testicular Leydig cell production of androgens. After about 2 weeks, postorchiectomy levels of serum testosterone are achieved. It has also been postulated that estrogens have a direct cytostatic effect on prostate cancer cells and that high-dose intravenous phosphorylated stilbestrol can lead to immediate relief of symptoms of metastases, perhaps through a poorly defined direct effect on tumor cell deposits. Estrogens also directly inhibit testicular metabolism and increase the level of testosterone sex-binding globulin, which lowers the free serum level of the hormone.
The usual oral preparation of estrogen for use in prostate cancer is diethylstilbestrol (DES), which is administered in a daily dose of 1 to 3 mg. Estrogen therapy does not carry the psychological morbidity of orchiectomy, but it is associated with potentially significant side effects. In addition to the usual side effects of androgen suppression, the most significant negative consequence of this therapy is an increase in risk of cardiovascular events (including myocardial infarction), cerebrovascular events, and pulmonary emboli.
Another side effect is gynecomastia, which may cause pain, but this complication can be avoided with pretreatment low-dose radiation therapy to the breasts for 3 days. Although estrogen therapy is not costly, it is seldom used as first-line treatment because of side effects.
LHRH agonist therapy--Use of LHRH agonists has become the most common endocrine therapy for prostate cancer. These agents act initially at the level of the pituitary to stimulate LH release, resulting in a transient surge in serum testosterone levels. This causes feedback to the hypothalamus to deplete LH levels, resulting in the medical equivalent of orchiectomy. However, these agents do not affect adrenal production of androgens.
Naturally occurring LHRH is a decapeptide with a short half-life. Far more potent are the synthetic agonist preparations, including goserelin acetate (Zoladex) and leuprolide acetate (Lupron). In their long-acting, parenteral formulations, these agents are to be administered every 3 months. Goserelin pellets are administered by subcutaneous injection, usually into the abdominal wall through a wide-bore needle (14- to 16-gauge). Discomfort at the injection site can be decreased by administration of a local anesthetic. Leuprolide has usually been given intramuscularly with a conventional needle on a monthly basis. A 3-month depot injection is now available for both goserelin and leuprolide.
The main side effect associated with LHRH agonist therapy is the so-called flare reaction, in which tumor-related symptoms transiently worsen during initial treatment. Associated with a testosterone surge, the flare reaction may include an increase in bone pain. One preventive strategy is to pretreat patients with a 2-week course of an antiandrogen (bicalutamide [Casodex] or flutamide [Eulexin]). This approach is most often considered for patients with bone metastases.
Pituitary desensitization and castrate levels of androgens occur after about 5 days of LHRH administration. As with other hormone therapies, hot flashes, loss of libido, and impotence may occur. The link between long-term LHRH suppression of testosterone production and effective antitumor activity has been clearly demonstrated. Randomized trials have shown treatment benefits to be equivalent to those of orchiectomy and estrogen administration.
As already noted, androgen suppression is effective therapy in about 75% of patients with metastatic prostate cancer. But in virtually all patients, resistance to treatment eventually develops. The average time from initiation of therapy to disease progression varies from 18 to 48 months.
The long-term costs of LHRH agonist therapy are greater than those of orchiectomy, but most patients with metastatic prostate cancer are elderly and on Medicare, which covers the costs of this therapy.
Antiandrogens--Since testicular suppression of androgen production still leaves patients with substantial levels of circulating androgens from the adrenal glands, it has been postulated that a combination of agents to deal with all sources of androgens could be a more effective treatment strategy.
The nonsteroidal (pure) antiandrogens, flutamide and bicalutamide, have been used in combination with androgen suppression to achieve so-called combined, or total, androgen blockade.
Antiandrogens enter prostate cancer cells and interfere with the interaction of dihydrotestosterone with androgen receptors. This strategy appears to result in greater antitumor effect than does LHRH agonist monotherapy, particularly in patients who are in generally good medical condition and who have smaller cancers. However, the advantage of combination therapy over monotherapy is modest, and controversy continues about the appropriate role for this strategy. These agents are administered orally. Flutamide must be administered every 8 hours and is commonly associated with diarrhea; the mechanism for this side effect, however, is unknown. Breast and nipple tenderness have also been observed. Bicalutamide has a longer half-life than flutamide, which allows daily administration, and appears to cause fewer toxic effects.
Side effects of endocrine therapy Perhaps the most troubling symptom of any therapy intended to suppress androgen levels is hot flashes, which may be severe. A variety of pharmacologic agents have been used to ameliorate this problem, including the alpha agonist clonidine hydrochloride (Catapres), the belladonna-phenobarbital-ergotamine tartrate combination Bellergal-S, megestrol acetate (Megace), and low-dose estrogens.
While erectile dysfunction is commonly seen with therapy for localized prostate cancer, particularly radical prostatectomy, androgen suppression also results in an essentially complete loss of libido. The implications of this side effect obviously are related to the patient's pretreatment levels of sexual interest and activity.
Elderly patients may find this side effect less troubling than do younger men, but this is not always the case. It is important to discuss with the patient that the emotional desire for intimacy and physical contact is not impaired by androgen suppression and that patients are able to engage in noncoital sexual experiences.
When the cancer progresses Patients whose prostate cancer has progressed after first-line endocrine therapy have many of the same needs and challenges as other patients whose solid tumors have progressed beyond initial therapy. The mechanism for "hormone escape" is thought to be clonal selection of androgen-independent tumor cell lines, and second-line endocrine therapy is generally futile. The availability of serial PSA monitoring means that progression of the disease while the patient is undergoing androgen suppression therapy is usually detected through blood testing, before progression of symptoms.
For patients whose cancer has progressed after monotherapy with either LHRH agonists or orchiectomy, it seems logical to consider the addition of an antiandrogen to counteract adrenal androgens at a tumor cell level. Unfortunately, this approach is rarely useful. Some reports, however, have stated that for patients initially treated with combined androgen suppression and antiandrogen therapy, withdrawal of the antiandrogen may lead to an antitumor withdrawal response similar to that seen in breast cancer patients when the antiestrogen tamoxifen citrate (Nolvadex) is withdrawn.
Another option is estramustine phosphate sodium (Emcyt), a combination of nitrogen mustard and a phosphorylated estradiol. The antitumor effect of this therapy is due to its ability to bind to microtubule-associated proteins. This agent is concentrated preferentially in the prostate and has been reported to cause subjective and objective improvement in 30% to 60% of patients. However, as with other chemotherapeutic agents, toxicity can be considerable, particularly in elderly, frail patients.
Other chemotherapeutic approaches, including use of taxanes, have been disappointing in their efficacy. In addition, because patients often require multiple courses of radiation therapy for relief of bone pain, bone marrow reserve may not allow adequate dosing with cytotoxic agents.
Because a variety of growth factors appear to be important to the development and progression of prostate cancer, anti-growth factor strategies have been devised. Suramin is a polysulfonated naphthylurea agent with a number of biologic effects, including inhibition of growth factor. This agent has shown promising activity in prostate cancer that has metastasized to bone, with efficacy greater in patients who are in good general medical condition and who have lower total-body tumor cell burdens. Side effects are substantial, however, and include skin rash, prolonged bleeding time, keratopathy, and neuromuscular toxicity.
Methods of palliation
Bone pain is the most common symptom requiring relief. Some patients benefit from therapy with biphosphonates, which suppress bone resorption and mineralization by a direct effect on osteoclasts.
Local radiation therapy to areas of painful, bony metastases relieves symptoms in most patients. For patients with multiple sites of painful metastases, wide-field radiation therapy, such as hemibody irradiation, may improve symptoms but also carries greater risk for side effects, such as nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea.
Another treatment possibility is strontium-89 chloride, a beta-emitting isotope with a half-life of 50.5 days. This agent is localized preferentially in sites of increased bone turnover, including osteoblastic metastases in prostate cancer. In normal bone, turnover is about 2 weeks, but metastatic tumor cell deposits retain the agent almost indefinitely. Strontium-89 chloride has been clearly demonstrated to provide effective pain relief in a significant proportion of patients with metastatic prostate cancer. Pain relief typically occurs within 1 to 2 weeks after administration of a single intravenous dose. Side effects are minimal and consist mainly of bone marrow suppression. This therapy is ideal for patients with multiple sites of bony metastases whose white blood cell count is over 3,000/mm3 and platelet count is above 60,000/mm3. About 90% of this agent is excreted by the kidney, so dose modifications may be required in patients with renal insufficiency.
Summary
Management of patients with metastatic prostate cancer differs from that of patients with other metastatic solid tumors. Because the treating physician is usually the patient's urologist, the primary care physician's main role may be to relieve pain and treat the patient for common side effects of hormone therapies. By being familiar with the forms of systemic treatment-including orchiectomy and the use of estrogens, luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone agonists, and antiandrogens-the primary care physician can also assist patients in making treatment decisions that are individualized to the specifics of disease state, comorbid conditions, age, and value systems.
Bibliography
Bolger JJ, Dearnaley DP, Kirk D, et al. Strontium-89 (Metastron) versus external beam radiotherapy in patients with painful bone metastases secondary to prostatic cancer: preliminary report of a multicenter trial. Semin Oncol 1993;20(3 Suppl 2):32-3 Cassileth BR, Soloway MS, Vogelzang NJ, et al. Patients' choice of treatment in stage D prostate cancer. Urology 1989;33(5 Suppl):57-62 Crawford ED, Eisenberger MA, McLeod DG, et al. A controlled trial of leuprolide with and without flutamide in prostatic carcinoma. N Engl J Med 1989;321(7):419-24 [Erratum, N Engl J Med 1989;321(20):1420] Crawford ED, Kozlowski JM, Debruyne FM, et al. The use of strontium 89 for palliation of pain from bone metastases associated with hormone-refractory prostate cancer. Urology 1994;44(4):481-5 Crawford ED, Nabors WL. Total androgen ablation: American experience. Urol Clin North Am 1991;18(1):55-63 Dijkman GA, Debruyne FM, Fernandez del Moral P, et al. A phase III randomized trial comparing the efficacy and safety of the 3-monthly 10.8-mg depot of Zoladex with the monthly 3.6-mg depot in patients with advanced prostate cancer. Eur Urol 1994;26(Suppl 1):1-2 Eisenberger MA, Reyno LM, Jodrell DI, et al. Suramin, an active drug for prostate cancer: interim observations in a phase I trial. J Natl Cancer Inst 1993;85(8):611-21 [Erratum, J Natl Cancer Inst 1994;86(8):639-40] Herr HW, Kornblith AB, Ofman U. A comparison of the quality of life of patients with metastatic prostate cancer who received or did not receive hormonal therapy. Cancer 1993;71:1143-50 Huggins C, Hodges CV. Studies on prostatic cancer: the effect of castration, of estrogen and of androgen injection on serum phosphatases in metastatic carcinoma of the prostate. Cancer Res 1941;1:293-7 Kennealey GT, Furr BJ. Use of the nonsteroidal anti-androgen Casodex in advanced prostatic carcinoma. Urol Clin North Am 1991;18(1):99-110 The Leuprolide Study Group. Leuprolide versus diethylstilbestrol for metastatic prostate cancer. N Engl J Med 1984;311(20):1281-6 McLeod DG, Crawford ED, Blumenstein BA, et al. Controversies in the treatment of metastatic prostate cancer. Cancer 1992;70(1 Suppl):324-8 Myers C, Cooper M, Stein C, et al. Suramin: a novel growth factor antagonist with activity in hormone-refractory metastatic prostate cancer. J Clin Oncol 1992;10(6):881-9 Peeling WB. Phase III studies to compare goserelin (Zoladex) with orchiectomy and with diethylstilbestrol in treatment of prostatic carcinoma. Urology 1989;33(5 Suppl):45-52 Scher HI, Kelly WK. Flutamide withdrawal syndrome: its impact on clinical trials in hormone-refractory prostate cancer. J Clin Oncol 1993;11(8):1566-72 Schröder FH. Early versus delayed endocrine treatment in metastatic prostatic cancer. In: Murphy GP, Khoury S, eds. Therapeutic progress in urological cancers. Proceedings of an International Symposium on Therapeutic Progress in Urological Cancers, Paris, 1988. New York: Liss, 1989:253-60 Dr Taub is in private practice of urology and Dr Begas is in private practice of oncology in Boca Raton, Florida. Dr Love is associate clinical professor, department of medicine, division of hematology and oncology, University of Miami School of Medicine. Mailing address: Neil Love, MD, 1150 NW 14th St, Suite 509, Miami, FL 33136.point out that the primary care physician not only provides direct care, but also serves as a sounding board and acts as an intermediary between the urologist and the patient.
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
I.P. Freely - 01 Nov 2006 04:31 GMT c palmer posted a paper with lots to say to us:
> Advanced prostate cancer > Endocrine therapies and palliative measures [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > direct care, but also serves as a sounding board and acts as an > intermediary between the urologist and the patient. Now THAT sounds efficient, doesn't it, especially if it takes days to weeks to get appointments. Who wants a filter between him and his specialist? The more I look back on the process, the more ridiculous that intermediary concept looks. My docs and I had very complex discussions, with one question leading to several more, or one answer covering several questions. An hour with a specialist may provide more knowledge than months of Q&A through a firewall. "Well, that's not quite what I meant to ask." "That brings up four more questions." "What did she mean by that?" "You're the idiot that ignored my soaring PSA for two years. What qualifies you to filter and interpret what my specialist says?" "If the arrogant SOB hasn't got the time and inclination to talk to me face to face, he can go to hell. Find me a new uro."
> Metastatic, or advanced, prostate cancer is a clinical entity distinct > from other forms of cancer in a number of ways. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In addition, the urologist often initiates systemic therapy, almost > always with endocrine, or hormone, therapy. Do an of you think that makes good sense? Would you want the orthopod who repaired your mangled leg treating any ensuing systemic blood infection or the bone chip that migrated to and lodged in a heart valve? The minute my uro onc began considering ADT, he brought in a med onc and two endocrinologists to talk to me. I guess much would depend on how closely my uro worked with and listened to the specialists. After all, other than breast cancer, prostate cancer is the only common cancer in which endocrine therapy is a mainstay of treatment.
> The chief disadvantage [to surgical castration] relates to body image. Uh, guys, how about irreversibility? Can you imagine having the bad luck of getting a major case of the worst SEs and being unable to reverse them?
> The average time from initiation of therapy to disease progression > varies from 18 to 48 months. A meaningless statement without comparison to data on how long progression takes WITHOUT the therapy.
> the advantage of combination therapy over monotherapy is modest > [some studies say nonexistent. In fact THIS document adds later that > "Unfortunately, this approach is rarely useful. "] ... and is > commonly associated with diarrhea. Oh, yeah, throw me right in that boat. Minimal -- if any -- advantage in return for years of the trots. Come to think of it, leave me OUT of THAT boat.
> androgen suppression also results in an essentially complete loss > of libido. The implications of this side effect obviously are > related to the patient's pretreatment levels of sexual interest >and activity. Exactly why Orion's dad's doctor should have asked the two questions.
I.P.
Steve Kramer - 01 Nov 2006 13:12 GMT >> This article reviews the key points in managing metastatic prostate >> cancer, including risk-benefit considerations of systemic treatment. The [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "If the arrogant SOB hasn't got the time and inclination to talk to me > face to face, he can go to hell. Find me a new uro." You have finally come up with an example of an anecdotal story that we can dismiss. Very few of us had a primary physician who was as incompetent as yours. Maybe only Steve Jordan. Furthermore, very few of us had the intelligence and vigor that you had to investigate the disease(s) that you had.
However, I would not want to filter all the data through even my thoroughly competent primary physician. No matter how good he is and no matter how honest he is he could not possibly sate my thirst for information using him merely as a conduit.
That said, I find bouncing ideas off each of my thoroughly compentent doctors every four months to be extremely inefficient. I would love for there to be a formalized communication between them, though I would want to be involved in that communication. 3-way calling, MS Net Meeting, etc., would be modern solutions for this.
>> Metastatic, or advanced, prostate cancer is a clinical entity distinct >> from other forms of cancer in a number of ways. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Do an of you think that makes good sense? My primary physician found the PSA. He referred me to my uro. My uro referred me to my radiological oncologist during 2002. My uro has been my key treating physician throughout. Had my PSA risen in October, he and I had already agreed that I would be headed to an medical oncologist. I had referrals from him and from my primary already in my pocket. And, I would have continued to accept treatment from and ask questions of all three. But, a consulting session twice or three times a year, involving all of us, would be extremely effective, I think.
>> The average time from initiation of therapy to disease progression >> varies from 18 to 48 months. > > A meaningless statement without comparison to data on how long > progression takes WITHOUT the therapy. Agreed. And, to say nothing of the fact that the treatment commences after diagnosis which can occur anytime along a continuum. I wonder how far gone I would have been before I was diagnozed if I had waited for a symptom.
> Exactly why Orion's dad's doctor should have asked the two questions. ... hypothetically speaking....
I.P. Freely - 01 Nov 2006 17:41 GMT >>> This article . . . points out that the primary care physician >>> not only provides >>> direct care, but also serves as a sounding board and acts as an >>> intermediary between the urologist and the patient.
>> Who wants a filter between him and his specialist? >> The more I look back on the process, the more ridiculous [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > dismiss. Very few of us had a primary physician who was as incompetent as > yours. The primary care physician I used after the first idiot dropped the ball is excellent, but I still can't imagine having anyone between me and the specialists I'm consulting for decisions and/or treatment. Delays, spontaneous questions not asked, and lost opportunities to recognize and communicate my own priorities to the person who may determine my lifespan and QOL are all likely victims of consultation by proxy. I wouldn't date by proxy (OK; that depends on how hot the proxy is), and I surely wouldn't want to access, question, inform, and CHOOSE by proxy the person who's going to do that much to my body and my life.
> very few of us had the intelligence and vigor that you had to > investigate the disease(s) that you had. I doubt that. You and others have certainly shown the vigor, right here in going toe to toe with my verbal blitzes, and many of you can spout statistics and studies in rings around me. I suspect anyone who's here often is demonstrating the primary requirement for improving their care: involvement.
> However, I would not want to filter all the data through even my thoroughly > competent primary physician. No matter how good he is and no matter how > honest he is he could not possibly sate my thirst for information using him > merely as a conduit. There ya go. That's all I was saying. I just took more words doing it (duh!).
> That said, I find bouncing ideas off each of my thoroughly compentent > doctors every four months to be extremely inefficient. I was fortunate (come to think of it, it wasn't just good fortune; I CHOSE a facility and slate of physicians) to have a wide variety of specialists who worked under one roof and often together. That allowed me to consult with as many as three specialists in one day. I felt very privileged (not really, of course, but it FELT that way) when my uro onc picked up the phone and called the endocrinology dept head and asked, "I've got a pt here from across the state you need to talk with; can you squeeze him in today?" . . . and, in the meantime, called a well-known med onc into the exam room to talk with me and my wife. I feel fairly sure that happened because I was prepared and conversant -- something most people here can be (O.K., my Gleason 8 and second cancer didn't hurt, either). That's why I harp on it so much.
> I would love for > there to be a formalized communication between them, though I would want to > be involved in that communication. 3-way calling, MS Net Meeting, etc., > would be modern solutions for this. Once I suggested dual surgeries for my unrelated cancers and consulted with the surgeons who liked the idea, I asked my uro whether they, I, or my primary care physician needed to help coordinate the dual procedure. They convincingly assured me they worked closely enough to work it all out among themselves.
> I wonder how far gone > I would have been before I was diagnozed if I had waited for a symptom. That's a scary thought . . . and apparently a real threat in many other countries and medical systems. I'll wager that when my PC returns and lays me low, I'll be increasingly angry that my first PCP may have let my PC advance to G8 (if it does that) and invade my seminal vesicles (it did!), and refused to even consider that my evolving ED might be a symptom of more than my "advanced age" (I was approaching . . . horrors . . . SIXTY!)
I.P.
Alan Meyer - 01 Nov 2006 02:05 GMT Dora,
At age 82, and with a good response to hormone therapy, there is a chance that your husband will live out the rest of his natural life without being taken by prostate cancer.
A drop from 66 to .6 in only two months is very good. It means that the prostate cancer has become relatively dormant. Many people who have a good response like this find that their PSA will continue to fall for more months, and that the bone pain of the metastases may be significantly alleviated.
As we get older, we know that the time left to us grows shorter and shorter. So I think it is important for all of us to make the most of our time - to enjoy ourselves, our friends, our families, and the things we have always liked to do.
One way I think about our situation is that those of us who have been treated for cancer have been given a gift by modern medicine. We have been given some extra years, some extra time on earth, that we wouldn't have had if it weren't for our treatment. We are given more time, more freedom from incapacitation, and more freedom from pain than our cancer would have permitted us.
Let us not be depressed. Let us all relish this extra time. Let us enjoy what we have been given.
My best wishes to the two of you.
Alan
limey - 01 Nov 2006 20:49 GMT > Dora, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Alan Thank you, Alan. What a beautiful and comforting response.
Dora
cmdrdata - 01 Nov 2006 16:29 GMT > Since the prostate cancer is all through his bones, will the low PSA reading > have any bearing on that? Sorry for the questions, but we're just trying to > understand. > This is such an unknown path we're on. Dora, with your spouse's diagnosis, if that is me, I'd try to do all the things that I've been wanting to do without regards to cost. Even now, with my recent DX, it has changed my view, and I plan to do the things I wanted to do and see, ooner than later. When my father in law and brother in law died of metastatic prostate cancer, their QOL after discovery went down drastically, due to the disease, as well as the chemotherapy that makes them even worse. Their progression were fast, and followed by paralysis, so enjoy life now while both of you can do it. Sorry to be so negative on this problem.
limey - 01 Nov 2006 20:54 GMT >> Since the prostate cancer is all through his bones, will the low PSA >> reading [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > now while both of you can do it. Sorry to be so negative on this > problem. Sorry to hear about your father-in-law and brother-in-law. We don't know where my husband is headed in the time ahead but you have pinpointed some of the fear. As you said, enjoying life NOW is the secret. Among this group he is not unique but I'm struck by how much compassion, encouragement and good wishes we have been given.
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