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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2006

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Question about biopsies

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Steve S - 02 Oct 2006 19:35 GMT
Please excuse a lurker asking a stupid question...

It's my understanding that, in the case of suspected testicular cancer, it's
always a case of "shoot first, ask questions later", i.e. the risk of
accidentally spreading cancerous cells to the rest of the body through
performing a biopsy is too high, so whip it out and examine it in vitro.

The question is, is there any similar risk from prostate biopsies, with
anything from 6 to 18 or so samples being taken, often multiple times. Just
curious. What's the received wisdom on this issue?

Steve S
--
Steve Jordan - 02 Oct 2006 19:58 GMT
> Please excuse a lurker asking a stupid question...
>  
There is no such thing as a stupid question.
> It's my understanding that, in the case of suspected testicular cancer, it's
> always a case of "shoot first, ask questions later", i.e. the risk of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> curious. What's the received wisdom on this issue?
>  
I doubt that there is any more "received wisdom" on this point than on
many other matters involving PCa. In short, someone will probably take
the opposing position to what I have to say.

Which is: I have seen not one scientific or clinical study that produced
evidence that a prostate biopsy provides an avenue for cancer cells to
escape the gland and take up residence elsewhere. And even if it did
occur, PCa cells from the gland have not mutated to the point that they
can survive outside the gland.

So: there is no evidence that such things occur. None.

As for testicular cancer, I have no idea.

Oy. Another Steve. We are infesting this NG. Someday we shall take over!

Regards,

Steve J

"Do not compute the totality of your poultry population until all the
manifestations of incubation have been entirely completed."
-- William Jennings Bryan
Steve S - 02 Oct 2006 20:24 GMT
> So: there is no evidence that such things occur. None.

Most reassuring, thanks.

> Oy. Another Steve. We are infesting this NG. Someday we shall take over!

Well, my name is Steve, but most people call me... Steve. <g>

Steve S
cmdrdata - 02 Oct 2006 22:32 GMT
> Please excuse a lurker asking a stupid question...
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Steve S
> --

It is not a stupid question as I too wonder about prostate biopsies
causing the cancer to metastasis.  I was told that if the cancer cells
are NOT in a ready to metastasis state, then spilling it over outside
the prostate during biopsy procedure will not cause it to spread
outside the prostate. This is according to my Uro and my cell biologist
with a PhD ( my daughter).  But, we also know that much of medicine and
health care are basically derived from experiments and trial and
errors, so with a grain of salt, a few years from now, it may be proven
differently. Just like carnival x-rays being called harnless  not so
long ago.
Alan Meyer - 03 Oct 2006 00:03 GMT
> ...
> It is not a stupid question as I too wonder about prostate biopsies
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> outside the prostate. This is according to my Uro and my cell biologist
> with a PhD ( my daughter).

Your daughter sounds very smart.

My understanding is that prostate cells cannot normally survive
outside the prostate.  The same is true for cells from other
organs.  They are adapted to the special conditions of the
organ they reside in.  That's one reason why prostate cancer
cells can grow for years and years before they successfully
escape the prostate and metastasize.  Such cells apparently
do make it into the blood stream, but do not survive outside
the prostate.

Tumor cells accumulate genetic damage over time, often
becoming more and more malignant, less and less constrained
by the conditions that constrain normal cells.  So it may well
be that early stage prostate cancer, even if it were spread to
other parts of the body, would not establish itself and
metastasize.

   Alan
Alan Meyer - 02 Oct 2006 23:52 GMT
> Please excuse a lurker asking a stupid question...
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Steve S

I seem to recall that someone published a study of this and found
that there is a very low possibility of spread of cancer by
biopsy needles.  The number 1 in a thousand sticks in my head.
But when I just searched PubMed I wasn't able to find anything.

There are plenty of rumor mongers around, for example at:

http://www.karlloren.com/biopsy/p30.htm#ProstateBiopsy

we find:

   "... doctors and researchers have noted that biopsy of a
   cancerous tumor can cause spreading or "seeding" of cancer
   cells along the path or track made by the biopsy needle. This
   could cause a cancerous condition which had been confined
   solely to the prostate capsule to spread into surrounding
   tissues, making a serious health concern even more
   problematical."

   "While cancer seeding from biopsy is uncommon, patients and
   physicians should be aware of these potential risks, have a
   clear understanding of what information they want to obtain
   from a biopsy, and what action will be taken based upon that
   information."

But no sources are cited.  We don't know who these "doctors and
researchers" are.

The Prostate Cancer Foundation says at:

http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org/site/c.itIWK2OSG/b.47289/k.ACCF/Detectio
n_Methods.htm


   "Some men worry that a biopsy might help spread the cancer
   cells either throughout the prostate or beyond.  There is no
   evidence that cancer biopsies of any kind result in the
   spread of cancer."

My view of the matter is this:

If PSA is higher than normal, and/or a digital rectal exam finds
abnormal tissue, then there is a chance that you have cancer.

No responsible doctor would initiate treatment without seeing the
results of a biopsy, and any patient would be crazy to request
treatment without a biopsy proving that he has cancer.

Therefore, even if there is a slight chance of harm caused by the
biopsy, there really isn't any choice in the matter.  The dangers
of not getting a biopsy in the presence of abnormal PSA or DRE is
vastly greater than the danger of getting a biopsy.

   Alan
ron - 03 Oct 2006 00:10 GMT
> I seem to recall that someone published a study of this and found
> that there is a very low possibility of spread of cancer by
> biopsy needles.  The number 1 in a thousand sticks in my head.
> But when I just searched PubMed I wasn't able to find anything.

Of course tumor tracking within the prostate is different than
metastasizing to other parts of the body...Ron

J Urol. 1991 May;145(5):1003-7

Needle biopsy associated tumor tracking of adenocarcinoma of the
prostate.

Bastacky SS, Walsh PC, Epstein JI.

Department of Urology, Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine,
Baltimore, Maryland.

We reviewed 350 previously biopsied completely submitted clinical stage
B radical prostatectomy specimens resected between January 1, 1987 and
December 31, 1988 in an attempt to identify the incidence of needle
biopsy associated tumor tracking into periprostatic soft tissue. We
identified 7 cases (2.0%) of needle biopsy associated tumor tracking, 3
in which the only tumor penetration in the gland was limited to the
needle track. The maximal soft tissue extension from the biopsy site
ranged from 0.1 to 1.2 cm. and approached the nearest soft tissue
margin to within 0.5 mm. in 4 cases. In contrast to prior reports
showing clinically evident tracking only with transperineal biopsies
from high grade tumors, 6 of our 7 cases were of intermediate grade (in
the glandular and tracking components) and 6 had transrectal biopsies.
Needle biopsy associated tumor tracking occurred with core (14 gauge)
and biopsy gun needles (18 gauge). An additional 13 cases (3.7%) showed
some features of needle biopsy associated tumor tracking but they were
equivocal. These findings have significant implications in light of
recent proposals advocating serial mapping of prostate cancer using the
biopsy gun with potential conservative observation of smaller tumors.

J Surg Oncol. 1987 Jul;35(3):184-91

Seeding and perineal implantation of prostatic cancer in the track of
the biopsy needle: three case reports and a review of the literature.

Haddad FS, Somsin AA.

Several months (an average of 12.86 months) after perineal needling of
the cancerous prostate for the purpose of obtaining tissue for biopsy,
a tumor nodule becomes clinically evident in the subcutaneous tissue of
the perineum, at the site of the needling in 0.34% of the cases. This
nodule presents the same histological picture as the biopsy of the
prostatic tumor. This is a review of 15 such cases (12 collected from
the literature and an additional three unpublished cases, two of which
are personal observations). At the time of needling, no metastases
could be clinically detected in any of the patients; the serum acid
phosphatase was normal in 73% of them. The average age of the patients
was 65.66 years. The perineal nodule was tender in 40% of the cases;
its average size was 2.5 cm. Excision of the nodule was the most
frequently employed form of management. At the time of reporting, 60%
of the patients were living and well, for an average of 18.56 months
after excision. In order to prevent perineal implantation, especially
in patients who are at risk, it is suggested that a fine needle be
employed to obtain prostatic tissue for biopsy, and that every possible
therapeutic effort be made.

PMID: 3298860
 
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