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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / September 2006

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Lupron

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Duffer - 22 Sep 2006 20:15 GMT
Hello all, I had RRP and EBRT appx. 4 years ago.  My psa remained at 0.1
then last year it began to rise every 3 months (.17, .19, .34, .48). So my
URO shot me with Lupron.  I am experiencing hot flashes on a regular basis.
Has anyone else felt the same symptoms?  Also, what other types of symptoms
can I expect.  This shot is supposed to last 4 months and then we'll see if
intermitent shots are the direction we go in.  Any helpful info will be
appreciated.
tchtic@yahoo.com - 22 Sep 2006 22:08 GMT
> Hello all, I had RRP and EBRT appx. 4 years ago.  My psa remained at 0.1
> then last year it began to rise every 3 months (.17, .19, .34, .48). So my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> intermitent shots are the direction we go in.  Any helpful info will be
> appreciated.

recommend you hit the Prostate Cancer websites or Google for "lupron".
The only new thing is the connection to high blood sugar and
Triglycerides.  I've been moaning about this for a year and there are
now some studies that report, yes this is a problem.

Hope you got a full blood chemistry, including Testosterone, before
they gave you that shot.  If not, ask your doc for your old records.
You should monitor your chemistry to verify that nothing odd is
happening.

I had almost all the symptoms, including hair regrowth but not the boob
development.

One weird side effect, in the first few weeks to month, the Lupron
might spike your testosterone and you'll find yourself erect and ready
for action.  If that happens, MAKE THE MOST OF IT!!!!

A fellow wrote to me saying that long term prospects weren't looking to
great.  That's why, if you get the Testosterone Flare from Lupron,
don't hold back wondering about it, do it until the neighbors complain
about all the noise and the bedpost knocks a hole in the wall.

-kh
Steve Jordan - 23 Sep 2006 00:34 GMT
On September 22, kh responded to Duffer, in pertinent part:
> One weird side effect, in the first few weeks to month, the Lupron
> might spike your testosterone and you'll find yourself erect and ready
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> about all the noise and the bedpost knocks a hole in the wall.
>  
This is nothing to giggle about; the "flare" is dangerous.

Here is the Warning published on rxlist.com section on Lupron. The same
applies to the other LHRH agonists:

"WARNINGS

Initially, LUPRON DEPOT, like other LH-RH agonists, causes increases in
serum levels of testosterone to approximately 50% above baseline during
the first week of treatment. Transient worsening of symptoms, or the
occurrence of additional signs and symptoms of prostate cancer, may
occasionally develop during the first few weeks of LUPRON DEPOT
treatment. A small number of patients may experience a temporary
increase in bone pain, which can be managed symptomatically. As with
other LH-RH agonists, isolated cases of ureteral obstruction and spinal  
cord compression have been observed, which may contribute to paralysis
with  or without fatal complications.

For patients at risk, initiation of therapy with daily LUPRON
(leuprolide acetate) Injection (see DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION  section
in the LUPRON Injection labeling) for the first two weeks to facilitate  
withdrawal of treatment may be considered."

[It appears that Duffer's uro failed to take note of this WARNING and
started him on a four-month injection]

"If spinal cord compression or renal  impairment develops, standard
treatment of these complications should be instituted."

This kind of thing is exactly why I recommend that, once the uro has
completed his surgical work (and very likely that's all he is: a
surgeon), anything further be supervised by a medical oncologist --
along with an empowered patient.

Regards,

Steve J

"Flagrantly, we docs ignore the declaration of biology. We do this out
of ignorance, greed or both. The prime directive of the physician, the
real physician, is patient outcome, & not physician income (or ego)."
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
tchtic@yahoo.com - 23 Sep 2006 13:00 GMT
> This is nothing to giggle about; the "flare" is dangerous.

What's this about?  Duff's been around a while.  If he had obvious
mets, they would not have put him through surgery.

I touched on this earlier, there's a tendency to overdramatize our
situation and get into ourselves.

Yes, we have cancer but like they say, it's prostate cancer, the one to
have if you have to have a cancer.

This thing is usually so slow and there are so many choices for
effective treatment, that we have years to natter on and really
appreciate our problems.

Add in that most of us are OLD and the clock is ticking, maybe there's
something to I.P.'s approach to enjoying his sports and not letting a
thing like a finding the next sale on pads take up his time.

Sure, work with the docs, follow the medical developments, track your
blood chemistries, T, PSA, get more exercise (to include keeping the
blood flowing to the shaft), keep up the meds, maybe add some dietary
supplements, work on your diet.

I do all that but that's not my primary focus.   I'm still working,
living, enjoying.

This morning, I'll run over to the hardware store, do some maintenance
on the Miata, wash the dishes, kinda spruce up the place.

I have a date with a big busted blonde this afternoon and want all five
inches for her,  sink the tip in, nice and slow. The signs are looking
up. Just thinking about unhooking those D-cups, a wee mouse is stirring
in my jeans.  Hope everyone is pulling for me not to ... flop.

I know two guys who had heart attacks in their early 40's!  Both
survived but you gotta wonder when they'll have the next one.  I told
one of them, "at least you've lived a good long life."

Like my docs told me, it's time to enjoy life.   Get that $30 bottle of
wine.  Fine Italian cuisine.   If you like competitive sports, go for
it.  Whatever it is, live life fully.  

-kh
Steve Jordan - 22 Sep 2006 22:48 GMT
> Hello all, I had RRP and EBRT appx. 4 years ago.  My psa remained at 0.1
> then last year it began to rise every 3 months (.17, .19, .34, .48). So my
> URO shot me with Lupron.
The uro is a surgeon. When he performed the RRP, he did what he's
trained to do. This looks like recurrence, and I recommend consulting a
medical oncologist, preferably one who is well-experienced in tx of PCa.
>  I am experiencing hot flashes on a regular basis.
> Has anyone else felt the same symptoms?  Also, what other types of symptoms
> can I expect.  This shot is supposed to last 4 months and then we'll see if
> intermitent shots are the direction we go in.  Any helpful info will be
> appreciated.
>  
Intermittent ADT is best done after at least a year of undetectable
PSAs, defined as =/<0.05 ng/mL.

Here's what I've previously written about hot flushes (it's a shame that
the uro apparently is ignorant of the side effects (SEs) of ADT androgen
deprivation therapy):

"There are txs for hot flushes, and they seem not to be well-known among
some inattentive medics. I'll not speculate on the reason. You may
admire my restraint.

They are:

1. Megace (megestrol acetate): some concern has been expressed by one
medic that it might encourage PCa development where the tumor has
mutated. Unfortunately, there appears to be no way to be certain whether
this has occurred. Nonetheless, I do know that it is used successfully
to relieve hot flushes.

2. Paxil (paroxetine hydrochloride), an antidepressant. A side effect is
to relieve hot flushes.

3. Effexor (venlafaxine hydrochloride), an antidepressant. Same story.

4. Depo Provera (medroxyprogesterone, a synthetic form of the female
hormone progesterone), the "label" use of which is as a female
contraceptive. In the 400 mg (contraceptive) dosage, a study (Marx et
al.) has demonstrated excellent results in relief of hot flushes among
men on ADT (androgen deprivation therapy).

I selected this tx to relieve my hot flushes (6 per night + days) from
Trelstar (triptorelin pamoate), which with Lupron and Zoladex is one of
the LHRH agonists used to castrate PCa patients chemically thereby
depriving PCa cells of an essential nutrient, testosterone (T).

In my case, I chose Depo Sub-Q Provera 104 mg, the "label" use of which
is palliative tx of endometriosis. In August 2005, I received 104 mg in
each anterior thigh. I have not experienced even one hot flush since
then. How long this will continue is anyone's guess.

However: one must be aware that progesterone is metabolized into
testosterone, and should take care that one's PSA is sufficiently low
that a rise in T will not be harmful. In my case, my PSA rose from 0.01
ng/ml to 0.02, then subsided to 0.01, which I feel is more than
satisfactory.

Caveat: what works for me may not work for anyone else in the universe!

In the USA, such use of these drugs is "off-label" which is to say not
approved by the US Federal Drug Administration. The practical effect of
this is that the use of the drugs for relief of hot flushes will not be
paid for by insurance carriers.

I
(1) am not sure of the dosages except for Depo Sub-Q Provera, and
(2) do not know the out-of-pocket costs of the off-label use, again with
the exception of Depo Sub-Q Provera (US$200 for two pre-loaded syringes
+ $25 for the injection at my medic's office).

I consider the cost to have been well worth the result.

Had a bit of fun with my medic and his staff after the injections.
Sighed and observed that from now on I would be unable to ovulate....."

I understand that certain estrogen txs are considered by some to be
effective, too.

Did the uro prescribe a brief course of Casodex in order to prevent a
flare of PCa and consequently PSA before starting the Lupron? He should
have.

Did he recommend a complete hormone blockade, Lupron + Proscar or
Avodart + Casodex?

Did the uro mention the inevitable loss of bone mineral density (BMD)
resulting from the use of ADT? And what to do about it?

I recommend reference to the authoritative website of the Prostate
Cancer Research Institute:
http://www.prostate-cancer.org/index.html
...and search on Androgen Deprivation Syndrome.

Also: a partial list of medical specialists can be found under Resources.

Attendance at a local UsToo! support group would likely prove to bee an
eye-opener. Local chapters can be found on their website:
http://www.ustoo.com/

Good luck.

Regards,

Steve J

"Flagrantly, we docs ignore the declaration of biology. We do this out
of ignorance, greed or both. The prime directive of the physician, the
real physician, is patient outcome, & not physician income (or ego)."
-- Stephen B. Strum, MD
I.P. Freely - 23 Sep 2006 01:56 GMT
> Hello all, I had RRP and EBRT appx. 4 years ago.  My psa remained at 0.1
> then last year it began to rise every 3 months (.17, .19, .34, .48). So my
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> intermitent shots are the direction we go in.  Any helpful info will be
> appreciated.

Very, very common, widely known, and long documented. Your oncologist
should have warned you about them and ADT's (such as Lupron's) other
side effect menu before you began treatment, for several reasons, among
them:
1. Some may be frightening if not anticipated (how'd that first hot
flash grab ya?). Some men's hot flashes flood their bedding at night.
2. Some ADT side effects, such as gynaecomastia, warrant pre-treatment
before beginning ADT.
3. Others demand preventative co-treatment (e.g., osteoporosis, for
those who can tolerate its treatment).
4. Yet others warrant lifestyle changes for couch potatoes or FORCE it
upon athletes.

A great place to begin one's research on ADT such as Lupron is at
http://www.prostate-cancer.org/education/sidefx/Strum_ADS.html .

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 23 Sep 2006 02:48 GMT
> Hello all, I had RRP and EBRT appx. 4 years ago.  My psa remained at 0.1
> then last year it began to rise every 3 months (.17, .19, .34, .48). So my
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> intermitent shots are the direction we go in.  Any helpful info will be
> appreciated.

Damn, Duffer!  When you last posed early in 2004, you were looking at a
possible cure (though the T3b didn't help).  Now this.  I'm sorry to hear of
it.

As to Lupron, I had hot flashes in 2003 when I first started on the stuff.
I got over it.  I sometimes wonder if I heat up during the night.  Sometimes
I wake up warm and slightly sweaty.  But, all in all, it has affected me as
much as others.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

MAS - 23 Sep 2006 17:48 GMT
Switch over to Eligaard from Lupron. Hot flashes diminished tremendously.
Talk to your Doctor about it.

Gourd Dancer

> Hello all, I had RRP and EBRT appx. 4 years ago.  My psa remained at 0.1
> then last year it began to rise every 3 months (.17, .19, .34, .48). So my
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> intermitent shots are the direction we go in.  Any helpful info will be
> appreciated.
Steve Jordan - 23 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT
> Switch over to Eligaard (sic) from Lupron. Hot flashes diminished tremendously.
> Talk to your Doctor about it.
>  
I understand that, as so often is the case with PCa, individual results
vary all over the lot.

Anecdote: In my case, I started LHRH agonists with Zoladex. Mild hot
flushes. Switched to Lupron; milder hot flushes. Switched to Trelstar;
frequent hot flushes for which I had the Depo-Provera injection
mentioned upthread.

BTW, Eligard (correct spelling) and Lupron are chemically the same:
leuprolide acetate. The incidence of hot flushes reported from the
clinical trials are virtually the same:

Eligard: 56.7%
Lupron: 57.1%

Source: http://www.rxlist.com/

Regards,

Steve J

"The thing is to expect nothing in particular, but (to) be aware of the lack
of enforceable guarantees or enforceable contracts with
nature/god/entropy as to the condition or durability of our bodies."
-- Brian Brunner, PCa survivor, December 12, 2005 on The Prostate
Problems Mailing List
Thank you, Brian.
MAS - 24 Sep 2006 02:03 GMT
I understand that Steve. However, Both Doctor and Nurse told me that
patients reported fewer HF's when they switched. Why? Anyones guess. I just
know that I went from 20+ a day to 2 day and now 1 in a month.....

Another factor it that the injection is not given in the hip, but rather the
upper arm. particularily helpful when a Nurse has to injection a skinny and
flabby person with no meat on their bones. \

May be the same chemical but needle size and locations are different because
Eligard is not as "thick" as Lupron. It just stings more going in.....

>> Switch over to Eligaard (sic) from Lupron. Hot flashes diminished
>> tremendously. Talk to your Doctor about it.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Mailing List
> Thank you, Brian.
Steve Jordan - 24 Sep 2006 06:54 GMT
On September 23, MAS replied to me:
> I understand that Steve. However, Both Doctor and Nurse told me that
> patients reported fewer HF's when they switched. Why? Anyones guess. I just
> know that I went from 20+ a day to 2 day and now 1 in a month.....
>  
Different strokes.....

I have heard of differing hot flush experiences among various men. Some
have many on Lupron, others fewer, and so on for the other LHRH
agonists. As is usual, your (and my) mileage may vary.
> Another factor it that the injection is not given in the hip, but rather the
> upper arm. particularily helpful when a Nurse has to injection a skinny and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Eligard is not as "thick" as Lupron. It just stings more going in.....
>  
Well, not to put to fine a point on it (no pun), the dosage in mg of
leuprolide acetate is the same, 7.5 or more, depending upon the length
of time intended for the drug to be effective. As for the location of
the injection causing a difference in the hot flush experience, I have
to doubt it without seeing evidence.

I believe that the difference lies, as is so often the case, in the
different physiologies of the different patients.

Regards,

Steve J
Duffer - 24 Sep 2006 18:10 GMT
My uro shot me in the left side of my stomach.  It is mixed with some type
of gel and releases its chemicals a bit at a time.

> On September 23, MAS replied to me:
> > I understand that Steve. However, Both Doctor and Nurse told me that
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Steve J
Steve Jordan - 24 Sep 2006 19:00 GMT
> My uro shot me in the left side of my stomach.  It is mixed with some type
> of gel and releases its chemicals a bit at a time.
>  
That may very likely have been Zoladex, which is injected into the
abdomen, not Lupron. If the uro is injecting Lupron into the abdomen,
he's making a mistake.

See, http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic4/zoladex-imp_ids.htm
This is for the 10.8-mg dosage, but they're all the same re: administration.

Lupron is dispensed intramuscularly. See,
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic4/lupron-d1125_ids.htm

Regards,

Steve J
 
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