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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / November 2006

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What Causes Men Pain in Prostate Biopsy & Best Method to    Alleviate it

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c palmer - 17 Sep 2006 14:57 GMT
ROCHESTER, MN -- September 14, 2006
-- Researchers at Mayo Clinic have evaluated the major sources of pain
for some men during in-office prostate biopsy and an anesthetic method
that can best lessen it.

Findings will be presented in two abstracts Thursday at the annual
meeting of the North Central Section of the American Urological
Association in San Diego.

Most prostate biopsies are performed on men who have abnormal digital
rectal exams or abnormally elevated prostate-specific antigen (PSA)
tests to evaluate the potential presence of cancer.

"Prostate biopsy evokes significant anxiety for some men due to
anticipated pain associated with the procedure," says Richard Ashley,
MD, Mayo Clinic urology resident and lead study investigator. "We also
noted that it seemed more men had pain with their prostate biopsies than
we would have liked, and we wanted to make this procedure as comfortable
as possible."

The researchers found about 16% of men who undergo prostate biopsy
experienced a moderate or higher level of pain -- pain scores of 5 or
more on a scale from 1 to 10. The injection of lidocaine to dull pain
during the biopsy caused more pain than the insertion of the transrectal
ultrasound probe, a small probe about the size of a cigar inserted into
the rectum to produce images of the prostate gland during the biopsy.
They also discovered that taking tissue samples in certain locations
tested in a prostate biopsy were more likely to cause pain.
Specifically, biopsy of the part of the prostate closest to the urethra,
the prostate apex, was more painful than biopsy of the part closest to
the bladder, the prostate base.

"We found we cannot predict who will have higher levels of pain at the
time of a prostate biopsy simply based on the patient's history and
features," says Dr. Ashley. "We discovered the location of biopsy was
the most predictive of higher pain scores -- not age, body mass index,
family history, presence of cancer, inflammation, whether a lump was
palpable, or whether the prostate was large or small."

The investigators also found that anesthesia administered by direct
infiltration of the prostate apex and the surrounding rectal tissues may
provide better pain control during a prostate biopsy than other
anesthetic methods.

"The prostate biopsy likely will never be a completely painless
procedure, but it should be tolerable," says Dr. Ashley.

"Patients should request that anesthetic be used at the time of a
biopsy, and pain control should be the standard of care in a urologist's
office. It does not take much time, and patients do benefit from this
simple procedure to make the biopsy more tolerable. Patients should also
be aware that different prostate locations biopsied are associated with
more pain, and this may never be completely overcome by anesthetic.
However, a complete and thorough sampling of the prostate gland is
necessary to give the most accurate diagnosis to the patient."
In the study, Dr. Ashley and colleagues recruited 243 men scheduled to
undergo in-office prostate biopsy in the

Department of Urology at Mayo Clinic. The researchers randomly assigned
the men to three different types of anesthetic: injection between the
prostate base and seminal vesicle where the neurovascular bundle lies;
intraprostatic injection into the substance of the gland, from the base
to the apex; and injection at the prostate apex and surrounding rectal
wall tissue.

The biopsies were performed using a side-fire ultrasound probe and a
biopsy gun. Six biopsies were performed on the right and left side of
the prostate of each patient, focusing on the peripheral zone where most
cancers occur.

The findings in this study need to be verified by other researchers in a
larger study, according to Dr. Ashley.

Other study investigators include: Jonathan Routh, MD; Amy Krambeck, MD;
Sameer Siddiqui, MD; Jeffrey Slezak; Lance Mynderse, MD; Michael Blute,
MD; and Matthew Gettman, MD.

SOURCE: Mayo Clinic    

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Ron B - 17 Sep 2006 18:47 GMT
Great post Curtis.

I was (am) afraid of everything...and I was told that the biopsy would
be no problem.

I didn't need someone to drive me there...and I was told that I could
leave and do anything that I wanted afterwards.

Go to a ballgame, go shopping, etc.

Yes, there would be blood in the urine for a few days...and blood in the
semen for a few weeks...but that was normal.

Pain?  I could drive home alone...and as I.P. has mentioned...some guys
could ride their bike home.

I got a few small injections before the 'cigar size' probe was inserted.

(Maybe Dr. Yew can tell us again where the shots go...)...and the
'rubber band snap' samples were no big deal.

It was just as described...no big deal.

The RESULTS...were the scary part.

Best to all,

Ron B.

Chicago
I.P. Freely - 17 Sep 2006 19:20 GMT
> ROCHESTER, MN -- September 14, 2006
> -- Researchers at Mayo Clinic have evaluated the major sources of pain
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "The prostate biopsy likely will never be a completely painless
> procedure, but it should be tolerable," says Dr. Ashley.

"Tolerable"? Screw tolerable. Why should we have to tolerate "tolerable"
when they have a pain control arsenal on hand? How about this, Doc: make
it no big deal, and we'll talk. It doesn't have to feel GOOD, or even be
COMFORTABLE, but, jeez . . . merely TOLERABLE? What letter of the word
"pain" do these guys not understand? At what stage of their education or
practice do they figure our pain isn't their fault or responsibility?
There's a huge gap between "tolerable" and "acceptable" in my book, and
providers need to recognize it, accept it, discuss it with the pt, and
accommodate it safely.

I'd guess, though -- I didn't see any answer from Dr. Yew to my question
about it -- that a general anesthesia is an unwise risk for a routine
bx, considering the non-zero fatality rate of generals. But a topical or
local anesthetic isn't too much to ask, maybe a Valium or equivalent for
frightened pts, maybe even a regional if that first core sample really
hurt.

A dentist was preparing to do a root canal on a tooth a simple test
showed was completely dead. He said I "wouldn't feel a thing" with zero
anesthetic. If I had thought of it at the time, I'd have said, "OK. But
I'm going to hold your testicles in my right hand. Its grip strength
measures 200 pounds. Tread lightly." Maybe if the docs could "feel our
pain" more directly and promptly they'd be more concerned about it.

He was right; I felt nothing but the vibration of the "jackhammer".

OTOH, I had to argue at length with one proctologist to convince him to
do my colonoscopy cold turkey, with the (eager and obvious) agreement
that if anyone in the room hollered or signaled "Uncle" I'd be out in
seconds. Putting the reins in our hands -- whether they're connected to
a post-op morphine drip or a gas mask during a lesser procedure --
alleviates a lot of pain before it even starts.

I.P.
Peter Headland - 17 Sep 2006 19:35 GMT
> "Tolerable"? Screw tolerable.

Damn' right! My biopsy (no anaesthetic) left me drenched in sweat,
white-faced and shaking from the pain, but I didn't get up off the
couch* and punch the doctor, so I guess it was "tolerable".

* - That's hard to do with a probe up your butt.

Signature

Peter Headland

NICK - 17 Sep 2006 22:09 GMT
I.P. Freely wrote:

>> "Tolerable"? Screw tolerable.

And Peter Headland replied:

> Damn' right! My biopsy (no anaesthetic) left me drenched in sweat,
> white-faced and shaking from the pain, but I didn't get up off the
> couch* and punch the doctor, so I guess it was "tolerable".

Your description fits me to a "T".  Add one of the hottest days
of summer plus no air conditioning, and I was 1 step away from
passing out/fainting/going into shock.

I saw that freaking uro one more time - to read the biopsy report.
Then demanded that my PCP make a referral to a new uro for a
second biopsy/opinion.

That second biopsy went much smoother, with more samples.
Brian - 18 Nov 2006 00:14 GMT
>> "Tolerable"? Screw tolerable.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>* - That's hard to do with a probe up your butt.

just had mine done on Wed..  Barely tolerable.  Hemerroids (external)
don't make it any easier.  I tensed so much that it took a day to
relax my body.  My toes hurt for a day!  Mine was done in the uro's
office on that cardboard paper.  My wife says men are whimps.  Imagine
having a 6 lb stool pass through your anus.  Yikes.

I should get the results by Wed.  If not I will have to wait until
Monday.  Screw Thanksgiving.  I will give Thanks after I get the
results.  My PSAV is not good.  Prostate size was described as small
(normal)  from the ultra sound. Free PSA 15%.  PSA >9.

Not gonna worry until I have  a reason.
Steve Jordan - 18 Nov 2006 00:47 GMT
On November 17, Brian responded to Peter:
>  just had mine done on Wed..  Barely tolerable.  Hemerroids (external)
> don't make it any easier.  I tensed so much that it took a day to
> relax my body.  My toes hurt for a day!  Mine was done in the uro's
> office on that cardboard paper.  My wife says men are whimps.  Imagine
> having a 6 lb stool pass through your anus.  Yikes.
>  
Brian's wife has a point.

However:

There is absolutely *no reason* why men, any more than women, should be
required to tolerate the pain of a biopsy or childbirth.

There are medications commonly available to alleviate the pain, and
failure of the medic to offer them is, IMO, malpractice. This is no time
to be macho.

Besides, absence of pain will inevitably help the pt to relax and also
help the medic to do his/her job.

Arizona, where I am delighted to reside, recognizes a pt's *legal right*
to pain relief.

Regards,

Steve J

“Prostate cancer is often described as a curable disease made incurable
by late diagnosis."
--David Wright, Advanced PCa patient
East Comiston, Scotland
Mary Fisher - 18 Nov 2006 10:16 GMT
> On November 17, Brian responded to Peter:
>>  just had mine done on Wed..  Barely tolerable.  Hemerroids (external)
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Steve J

The first time Spouse had one (ten years ago) he passed out from the pain
and he's anything but a wimp.

When he had to have one this year he was very nervous so the doctor said
there was no need to worry and he had it under a general anaesthetic.

Other people we know have had no pain. People are different in this as in
everything else.

Mary
John Loomis - 18 Nov 2006 00:47 GMT
Hi Brian,
   I took the enema's, drove 80 miles one way, got up on that tableupside
down and backward with a Blond Nurse looking on....
Dr. Graeber, started his deal, expalined the ultrasound and the view so to
speak.
He took the samples with what I was nervous about was that big "snap"....
Anyway the Nurse dropped a sample and the Dr. mumbled "dumb blond" almost
had to take yet another.
1st I said the Nurse who was blond was not dumb......
Then I told the Dr. that it was rough and hurt.....
He slammed back, "Do You want it to feel good?"
I shut up after that, and thought to myself, yes, it may as well feel good
rather than bad.....
Anyway, I was helped off the table, zipped up my pants, smiled at the Blond
Nurse.
Drove home another 80 miles, and picked up a hitchhiker.....
He was complaining about this and that.....
I told he he has nothing to complain about...
Zipped my lip, went home......
Was glad it was over......
No meds, no nothing, and driving there and back.
I was glad to have it done, and admit my Dr. had no "But Up Manners"
Men are not supposed to have 6# balls dropped out of their a.s anyway....
Womens Bodies are built for that.
Mans body is built for working, eating, making love, and making a lot of
mistakes....
Wish you well.
John Loomis
Look at it this way.....
It is the best check, and the least invasive.......It saves lives.....It
takes 20 minutes........and then you can go home and get loved by your
wife....
Just me.....

>>> "Tolerable"? Screw tolerable.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Not gonna worry until I have  a reason.
I.P. Freely - 18 Nov 2006 01:59 GMT
> Drove home another 80 miles, and picked up a hitchhiker.....

I hardly felt my undrugged prostate bx.
I useta ride a car hood down the 30-foot levee into the woods.
Schussed skateboards down freeway hills at 30 mph at midnight.
Flew snowmobiles off 40-foot cornices often.
Sometimes drive >140 mph on rural 2-lane blacktops.
Got a root canal with no drugs (the tooth was THAT dead).
Confronted three possible burglars after dark by myself to protect a
stranger's car (it was the right thing to do and I was not empty-handed).

But PICK UP A HITCHHIKER? ARE YA NUTS? ;-)
The only person I've picked up since my landlord was slaughtered by one
45 years ago a) was not asking for a ride, b) obviously needed help, c)
was clearly not a threat, and d) initially refused my offer.

Be careful out there.

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 18 Nov 2006 12:08 GMT
> But PICK UP A HITCHHIKER? ARE YA NUTS? ;-)
> The only person I've picked up since my landlord was slaughtered by one 45
> years ago a) was not asking for a ride, b) obviously needed help, c) was
> clearly not a threat, and d) initially refused my offer.
>
> Be careful out there.

Yes, leave picking up hitchhikers to us professionals.

I 'thumbed' my way home or to work from high school every day until I bought
a car.  Rarely did I walk the whole 5½ miles home.

Now, I pick up hitchhikers (when I dont' have my family with me).  The worst
problem I've had with them (other than the occasional stinker) was an
unfortunate comment made by one.  I advised him that I was of a differing
opinion and that if he wanted to continue in my car, he would have to, at
least temporarily, come around to my way of thinking.  As it turned out, he
had less conviction that I did and the next 20 miles or so were pleasant.

> I.P.
tchtic@yahoo.com - 18 Nov 2006 12:33 GMT
> Hi Brian,
>     I took the enema's, drove 80 miles one way, got up on that tableupside
> down and backward with a Blond Nurse looking on....

I had two biopsies.  The first was, er, bare-assed, that is, no pain
killer.

It wasn't bad but it was only a 6-poke.   I could feel the skewering.
I'd call it tolerable.  Results were negative, no cancer.   The cancer
was probably there but the 6-poke missed it.

The second was a few years later.

I had a colonoscopy in the morning and then, since I was guarenteed
fresh and clean, went to the prostate biopsy.  I checked with both docs
before hand to make sure that it would be OK.

This biopsy was a 12-poke.  My PSA had risen a little so the doc was
determined to do a thorough job.  He used a topical anesthetic and I
was still "feeling no pain" from the morning colonoscopy.  I don't know
what the anesthesiologist gave me but it was still in me that
afternoon.

Even so, I could feel the biopsy.  More accurately, between the
snap-click,knowing what he was doing, and my active imagination, I did
not like the experience.

A 6 is half over by the time he does the 3rd poke.   A 12 goes on and
on and on.

Like one report said, my actual pain varied with the target area.  I
suppose there're more nerves near the urethra.  The topical anesthetic
up the butt doesn't do much for that.

-kh
Bill - 18 Nov 2006 14:54 GMT
I really don't get it. A few weeks ago I was at the dentist for my
bi-annual cleaning and a new asst. was giving me a work over because I
hadn't flossed and had a lot of plaque buildup. I finally said that I
was going to have to have some gas or soemthing or this could not go
on. She promptly whipped out the little nitrous hose that goes over
your nose and sent me to lal la land. No more pain. Why on earth do
they not use nitrous during biopsies?

Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA 1.10
Memphis
I.P. Freely - 18 Nov 2006 17:47 GMT
> A few weeks ago I was at the dentist for my
> bi-annual cleaning and a new asst. was giving me a work over because I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> your nose and sent me to lal la land. No more pain. Why on earth do
> they not use nitrous during biopsies?

1. Because the vast majority of men don't experience pain with biopsies.
2. Because it has considerable hazard risks. (Google it)
3. At your next tooth cleaning, ask for Comfort Rinse. It's a topical
anesthetic rinse that numbs the mouth. That brand is defunct, but my
dentist hoards a supply (YEARS past its expiration date) just for me,
maybe yours can find the stuff in the "back room". Before finding that,
I took a Tylenol before dental cleanings.
4. Look at this way: the pain of dental cleaning is infinitely less than
the pain of gingivitis, gum recession, tooth extraction, jawbone
reconstruction, and heart attacks caused by . . . not flossing.

I.P.
Bill - 21 Nov 2006 15:29 GMT
"1. Because the vast majority of men don't experience pain with
biopsies."

I just do not think that is true. First off I think many simply won't
admit it - the macho man syndrome. And "pain" for one is extreme
discomfort for another. So I'm including various degrees of discomfort
in my definition of "pain." Having a cigar-sized (it must have been a
big stogie) cylinder crammed up your butt and wallowed around was no
picnic for me. Insertion of the biopsy probe was surprisingly painless
but the "bee stings" were increasingly painful. Not excuciating but
painful nevertheless. But my premise is this: whatever you want to call
it, it would be a helluva lot less so w/ gas or something.

"2. Because it has considerable hazard risks. (Google it)"

Yea, so does aspirin. Is it less hazardous in the dentist's office? Why
is it in widespread use in dentistry pratice if it is so dangerous? I'm
not talking about putting you under - just taking the edge off.

"3. At your next tooth cleaning, ask for Comfort Rinse. It's a topical
anesthetic rinse that numbs the mouth. That brand is defunct, but my
dentist hoards a supply (YEARS past its expiration date) just for me,
maybe yours can find the stuff in the "back room". Before finding that,
I took a Tylenol before dental cleanings."

Why should I when I have had NO2 many times, it works, and I like it.
:-)

In the scheme of things a biopsy is not the most horrible experience
but the fact is that many men find it painful and it has a reputation
as being most unpleasant if not downright painful. Many men will do
anything to avoid it - even to the point of putting their lives at risk
- so anything that will make it less unpleasant may also increase the
chances that men will go ahead and have them when they need to. A
couple of months ago a friend told me he had gotten his first ever PSA
and it was 7. I scolded him severely because I had admonished him (and
all my other buddies) back when I was diagnosed to get his PSA checked,
and told him he needed to see a uro immediately and would probably need
a biopsy. I saw him last week and he had not done a thing! I know he is
freaked about the biopsy. But if he knew he was going to get gas or
something to make it no big deal, I think there would be less anxiety
and he would have been quicker to act.

Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA 1.10
Memphis
Mary Fisher - 21 Nov 2006 16:01 GMT
> "1. Because the vast majority of men don't experience pain with
> biopsies."
>
> I just do not think that is true. First off I think many simply won't
> admit it - the macho man syndrome.

I'm not a man so I don't know why many men won't have even simple digital
rectal examinations. I've been telling all my women friends who have middle
aged husbands to encourage their husbands to go to the doctor but they
almost all say that their menfolk won't.

The first time Spouse had a cone biopsy the nurses said that it might be a
bit uncomfortable. He passed out. He's not usually as sensitive to pain as I
am but  he'd never heard of the procedure before so believed what he was
told, it wasn't a macho thing with him. When he had the critical one
recently it was done under general anaesthetic because he described his
first reaction. It wasn't questioned. Perhaps things are getting better ...

Mary
Joe Price - 21 Nov 2006 16:40 GMT
Everyone has his/her own pain threshold.  For me it was minor discomfort -
on the level of snapping an elastic band against my hand.
> "1. Because the vast majority of men don't experience pain with
> biopsies."
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> PSA 1.10
> Memphis
I.P. Freely - 21 Nov 2006 18:18 GMT
> "1. Because the vast majority of men don't experience pain with
> biopsies."
>
> I just do not think that is true.

That's what the uros, their nurses, and many pts here claim, so a few
complaints don't offset that IMO. Anecdotally, my wife says I'm a wuss
regarding pain, but our colons can not perceive needles and my prostate
didn't really feel the needles.

> I'm including various degrees of discomfort
> in my definition of "pain."

Then you're not playing fair.

> Having a cigar-sized (it must have been a
> big stogie) cylinder crammed up your butt and wallowed around was no
> picnic for me.

Neither is having to stand in line behind three people at the movie
ticket counter. But "painful"?

> "2. Because it has considerable hazard risks. (Google it)"
>
> Yea, so does aspirin. Is it less hazardous in the dentist's office? Why
> is it in widespread use in dentistry pratice if it is so dangerous?

It's banned in the UK because of its risks. You didn't Google it, did you?

> Why should I when I have had NO2 many times, it works, and I like it.

Ahhh . . . the truth comes out. ;-)

> it has a reputation
> as being most unpleasant if not downright painful.

Either that's just not true or the uros and literature are lying to us

> Many men will do
> anything to avoid it - even to the point of putting their lives at risk
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> something to make it no big deal, I think there would be less anxiety
> and he would have been quicker to act.

Three solutions are a) encourage them to demand anesthesia or an
anesthetic, b) quit telling them it's usually painful unless studies
prove it, and c) tell those with families at stake to grow up and Git
'Er Done.

I.P.
Jean - 21 Nov 2006 21:17 GMT
For what it's worth, I asked my husband if he had any pain with his biopsies
and he said no.  He said there was some pressure but it was minor and didn't
bother him.

Jean
glassman - 18 Nov 2006 01:04 GMT
>>> "Tolerable"? Screw tolerable.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> just had mine done on Wed..  Barely tolerable.  Hemerroids (external)
> don't make it any easier.  I tensed so much that it took a day to

   I'm surprised when I hear of others biopsy pain. I was also laying on
the coarse paper, and I didn't have any notice of having the procedure until
the last minute docs descision.  I had a little discomfort but no real pain
at all during, or after it was over.

Signature

JK Sinrod
www.SinrodStudios.com
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com

c palmer - 17 Sep 2006 21:54 GMT
I.P. penned.....

A dentist was preparing to do a root canal on a tooth a simple test
showed was completely dead. He said I "wouldn't feel a thing" with zero
anesthetic. If I had thought of it at the time, I'd have said, "OK. But
I'm going to hold your testicles in my right hand. Its grip strength
measures 200 pounds. Tread lightly." Maybe if the docs could "feel our
pain" more directly and promptly they'd be more concerned about it.

======

hi I.P. - i kinda like this thought.....  you go into the room,  get on
the table and assume the position for the biopsy.

then, you reach over and grab the doc by the family jewels and said,
"now, we aren't going to hurt each other - are we?"

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Roy - 22 Sep 2006 01:07 GMT
My biopsy was done under general anesthesia in a hospital because my doctor
said that was the easiest on the patient. He was trained at the Mayo clinic.
For what its worth.

> ROCHESTER, MN -- September 14, 2006
> -- Researchers at Mayo Clinic have evaluated the major sources of pain
[quoted text clipped - 79 lines]
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
> http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
 
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