Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / September 2006
PSA Question
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ajb - 15 Sep 2006 00:19 GMT Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) with 4 tests in 2 years. Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14% and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca in the family and I'm a non smoker. Can somebody tell me if I should be a little scared??? Is a biopsy next? Thx. AJ
Steve Jordan - 15 Sep 2006 01:25 GMT > Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) with > 4 tests in 2 years. Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14% > and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca > in the family and I'm a non smoker. Can somebody tell me if I should be a > little scared??? Is a biopsy next? With the above information, it is simply impossible to say, especially for amateurs like us.
A low free PSA percentage (<15%) MAY be a PCa marker, but I do not believe that it is definitive.
Were the PSA blood draws done with sufficient lapse of time since the last stressful activity such as sex, DRE, bike riding, etc?
What is the result of a DRE?
Family history is helpful in guessing the odds, but again it is not definitive. Neither is smoking (or not).
The whole field of PCa is riddled with uncertainty. That is an unfortunate fact.
Rather than seeking medical advice from online newsgroups I recommend that aj seek reliable information from:
1. The authoritative and objective website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute (PCRI) at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html, and
2. The premier PCa text _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide" by medical oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum, MD and PCa warrior Donna Pogliano.
Online groups can sometimes provide interesting anecdotal information (this is MY experience) and referral to sources, as well as the occasional flamewar (which should be ignored), but that's about it.
Regards,
Steve J
"Empowerment: taking responsibility for and authority over one's own outcomes based on education and knowledge of the consequences and contingencies involved in one's own decisions. This focus provides the uplifting energy that can sustain in the face of crisis." --Donna Pogliano, co-author of _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_, subtitled "The Empowered Patient's Guide."
Bob Anthony - 15 Sep 2006 05:34 GMT > The whole field of PCa is riddled with uncertainty. That is an > unfortunate fact. I am of the same opinion.
B.A.
Steve Kramer - 15 Sep 2006 02:26 GMT > Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) with > 4 tests in 2 years. Today I received news that my free ratio was about > 14% and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history > pf pca in the family and I'm a non smoker. Can somebody tell me if I > should be a little scared??? Is a biopsy next? Thx. AJ It might depend on the result of each of the PSA tests. But, I suspect that 2.7 to 3.2 is not all the great. You can do that with a serious bowell movement.
On the other hand, 14% free PSA is not good. It's not a definite, like a 10% might be, but it's not great.
You do not mention your digital rectal exam. That is a very important indicator when combined with PSA.
I think a biopsy might be suggested, but I don't think you should be scared yet.
P.S. Smoking has nothing to do with it.
PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
ajb - 15 Sep 2006 03:09 GMT Thanks Steve, My DRE was fine (I had 3 done in total over two years). At that time, my uroligists didn't seem to concerned as my PSA velocity was within acceptable levels (a year ago when my results rangeed from 2.4-2.7). But the latest results show PSA 3.2 with a lower ratio. I was told that free ratio results with a PSA < 4 is sometimes difficult to assess. Not sure why though? Anyway, I surely appreciate this newsgroup and your reply. Thanks for the links.. AJ
>> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) >> with 4 tests in 2 years. Today I received news that my free ratio was [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Casodex added daily 07/06 > Non Illegitimi Carborundum Leonard Evens - 15 Sep 2006 05:04 GMT > Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) with > 4 tests in 2 years. You don't say if there was a steady increase from 2.7 to 3.2 or it just varied in that range. A variation of that amount wouldn't normally suggest anything alarming, but the overall level for a man your age might be of some concern. Together with the 14 percent free PSA, that might suggest to your urologist that a biopsy is merited. If so, the chances are that the result would be negative.
Also, keep in mind that if you do have prostate cancer, it is extremely likely that it has been caught in time, and that you can be cured. Also, at your age, side effects from treatment are usually not a problem, provided you are under the care of a skilled physician.
> Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14% > and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca > in the family and I'm a non smoker. The first is good, the second is not relevant as far as getting prostate cancer is concerned, but it does mean you are likely to tolerate treatment better.
> Can somebody tell me if I should be a > little scared??? It alwasy makes sense to be positive. The chances are that you don't have prostate cancer, and even if you do, the chances are extremely good that it can be dealt with with minimal effects on your life. My expereince is that trying to prepare yourself for the worst doesn't work. Deal with things when they actually happen, which mostly they don't.
> Is a biopsy next? Thx. AJ mountainguy1958 - 15 Sep 2006 12:14 GMT Hi ajb,
I'm newly diagnosed with PCa, age 47, also a non-smoker (which, contrary to what one poster wrote in this thread, I believe is relevant to risk factor in any form of cancer), with a PSA profile over the last few years similar to yours. While I'm not as expert as many of the consumers here, I can tell you that a little fear (enough to keep you moving in the right direction) is probably in order.
As to a biopsy, I found that there's no need for excessive anxiety, particularly if your urologist allows you a general anesthesia. No pain, no memory. Versed is a beautiful thing.
I don't know about you, but tend to be more afraid of what I don't know. When it comes to health, the more information you have the better decisions you can make. My own fears, at the moment, again have to do with the unknown - possible side effects from surgery, etc. But whatever they are, I prefer to face those fears than a long slow death.
May the gods be with you.
Tom
> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) with > 4 tests in 2 years. Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14% > and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca > in the family and I'm a non smoker. Can somebody tell me if I should be a > little scared??? Is a biopsy next? Thx. AJ Leonard Evens - 15 Sep 2006 14:45 GMT > Hi ajb, > > I'm newly diagnosed with PCa, age 47, also a non-smoker (which, > contrary to what one poster wrote in this thread, I believe is relevant > to risk factor in any form of cancer), Both Walsh and Scardino, in their books, say that studies have not shown an increased prostate cancer risk for smokers. Of course, that doesn't mean it is okay to snoke. It is a risk factor for certain cancers such as lung cancer and certain kinds of leukemia, and smokers are more likely to suffer from a host of other diseases, most important of which is cardiovascular disease. As I noted previously, it is also true that non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with treatment.
ralphv - 15 Sep 2006 19:06 GMT Leonard, In spite of what Scardino and Walsh wrote there seems to be a connection:
William Roberts, MD, and colleagues from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Md., found that among men under age 55, those with a history of smoking were at greater risk of having cancer that had spread beyond the prostate. The risk for current smokers was even higher than that for former smokers. The researchers reported their results in the Journal of Urology (Vol. 169: 512-516).
Also a long-term study points to some of the same: Tobacco Use and Prostate Cancer: 26-Year Follow-up of US Veterans Ann W. Hsing, Joseph K. McLaughlin, Zdenek Hrubec, William J. Blot and Joseph F. Fraumeni, Jr. Epidemiology and Biostatistics Program, Division of Cancer Etiology, National Cancer Institute Executive Plaza North, Room 415, Bethesda, MD 20892
A 26-year follow-up of nearly 250,000 US veterans who responded to a questionnaire revealed 4,607 deaths from prostate cancer, providing the largest number of cases to date for evaluating relation to tobacco habits. Cigarette smokers had a significant increase in relative risk (RR = 1 .18; 95% confidence interval 1.09-1.28) and a dose response reaching 1.51 among smokers of 40 or more cigarettes per day. Risks were elevated, but not significantly, among users of smokeless tobacco and pipe/ciagar smokers. Despite limited data in the literature to support this finding, our study suggests that cigarette smoking may be related to prostate cancer, perhaps through its effect on sex hormone metabolism.
RalphV www.azustoo.org
> > Hi ajb, > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with > treatment. NICK - 16 Sep 2006 00:46 GMT > A 26-year follow-up of nearly 250,000 US veterans who responded > to a questionnaire revealed 4,607 deaths from prostate cancer, How could any dead person - let alone 4,607 - respond to a questionnaire?
But assuming they got out of their graves to do so:
1.8428% of 250,00 veterans died from prostate cancer. What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
That is 1:54.26524853483820 What ratio of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
What percentage of those veterans were smokers?
How many had diagnosed PCa and were treated?
What were their ages? WW I era? WW II? Korea?
Your numbers don't say anything.
ralphv - 16 Sep 2006 04:38 GMT Nick, I was trying to dispel Scardino and Walsh's notion that smoking is not a contributor risk for prostate cancer. Some comments interspersed under yours ralphv wrote:
> A 26-year follow-up of nearly 250,000 US veterans who responded > to a questionnaire revealed 4,607 deaths from prostate cancer, How could any dead person - let alone 4,607 - respond to a questionnaire? RV>++++++> Obviously they communicated with these men when they were alive and some of them smoking away.
But assuming they got out of their graves to do so:
1.8428% of 250,00 veterans died from prostate cancer. What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer? RV>+++++++> The most quoted number is around 3%. What has that to do with the subject at hand?
That is 1:54.26524853483820 What ratio of ALL men die from prostate cancer? RV>+++++++++> The most quoted ratio is 1:33 Again what is the connection?
What percentage of those veterans were smokers? RV>++++++> Not having the full citation...do not know, but still irrelevant.
How many had diagnosed PCa and were treated? RV>+++++++> Treated or untreated and smokers and non-smokers still died of PCa
What were their ages? WW I era? WW II? Korea? RV>++++++++> You failed to ask what cereal these veterans ate for breakfast.
Your numbers don't say anything. RV>+++++++++> You played with numbers and concluded that "my' numbers were worthless. They are not "my" numbers. Then while playing with numbers you missed the little fact that those men that smoked 40 or more cigarettes a day had a 51% higher relative risk of a PCa diagnosis. Hardly worthless! At least not for them.
RalphV www.azustoo.org
NICK - 16 Sep 2006 08:18 GMT >> What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
> The most quoted number is around 3%. What has that to > do with the subject at hand? Everything. Is the percentage higher for veterans than the general population?
>> What ratio of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
> The most quoted ratio is 1:33 Again what is the connection? Do more veterans diagnosed with cancer die than do the average population?
>> What percentage of those veterans were smokers?
> Not having the full citation...do not know, but still irrelevant. VERY, VERY RELEVANT. Trying to prove that smoking increased the chance of PCa and then say percentages are irrelevant results in people losing credibility
> You played with numbers and concluded that "my' numbers were > worthless. They are not "my" numbers. Then while playing with > numbers Not "playing with numbers." Attempting to establish ground rules so apples were being compared with apples, not oranges.
> you missed the little fact that those men that smoked 40 or > more cigarettes a day had a 51% higher relative risk of a PCa > diagnosis. Is that what "RR," "confidence interval," "dose response" mean? Why the hell can't plain, simple English be used. Not everyone is a statistician.
> Hardly worthless! As long as they include "suggests," "may" and "perhaps" it is worthless. It's a guessing game. No one knows for sure.
ralphv - 16 Sep 2006 16:16 GMT Nick, You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some 250,000 veterans some of whom smoke and some who do not. Veterans from both groups died of prostate cancer. The results indicate that those that smoke have a higher relative risk of getting PCa than those that do not smoke. Those that smoke more than 40 cigarettes a day have the highest relative risk. The data showed a connection between smoking and PCa.
This study did not compare veterans to the general population or include data to respond to your questions, that although valid, have nothing to do with the data provided. The study is written in English and uses statistical terms commonly used in the medical literature.
There are many Internet locations that can help understand statistical terms for those of us not trained in statistics, but that to cope with the disease are forced to read medical research papers. One such location is at: http://dorakmt.tripod.com/mtd/glosstat.html
RalphV www.azustoo.org
> >> What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer? > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > As long as they include "suggests," "may" and "perhaps" it > is worthless. It's a guessing game. No one knows for sure. NICK - 16 Sep 2006 19:39 GMT > Nick, > You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some > 250,000 veterans some of whom smoke and some who do not. Veterans >from both groups died of prostate cancer. The results indicate that those > that smoke have a higher relative risk of getting PCa than those that > do not smoke. I'm still not satisfied with that explanation.
Unless the veterans were divided into equal groups of 125,000 smokers and non-smokers with equal health/physical standards - like a drug trial - the numbers don't mean a damned thing.
"Some of whom smoke and some who do not" doesn't cut the mustard when attempting to state statistics. The quoted report didn't include any other health problems of those veterans which could skew the numbers. As someone else stated, exercise routines, weight and other factors should have been included.
JohnHace - 17 Sep 2006 19:08 GMT > Nick, > You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > highest relative risk. The data showed a connection between smoking and > PCa. This reminds me of a study of PCa and alcohol consumption using a large group of Harvard graduates. It found lower rates amoung those who consume wine and beer and higher rates for those who consumed hard liquor. But, it went on to point out that the hard liquor drinkers, upon closer inspection, also had more unhealthy habits than the wine drinkers. They ate more red meat, exercised less and didn't pay as close attention to their overall health.
The same may be true for smokers.
John
Leonard Evens - 18 Sep 2006 15:24 GMT >>Nick, >>You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > John John,
I agree that as an abstract scientific question, it is not clear whether or not somking increases the risk of getting prostate cancer. But, so what? There are so many other reasons not to smoke that whether or not it increases the risk of prostate cancer slightly seems pretty irrelevant.
Leonard Evens - 16 Sep 2006 16:15 GMT > Leonard, > In spite of what Scardino and Walsh wrote there seems to be a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > (RR = 1 .18; 95% confidence interval 1.09-1.28) and a dose response > reaching 1.51 among smokers of 40 or more cigarettes per day. First, you have to make sure you don't interpret 'significant increase' incorrectly. It means that the observed result was highly unlikely to have occurred purely from random factors in sampling. So the researchers believe there really is an association. It doesn't mean the increased risk is large.
Second, a relative risk of 1.18 is pretty small as such things go. for example, if I remember correctly, smokers are 8 times as likely to get lung cancer as non-smokers.
Finally, an association need not suggest a cause. It could be true for example that smokers exercise less or eat less healthy diets and it is those factors which explain the increased relative risk rather than the smoking itself. Confounders of this kind are particularly a problem when the increased relative risk is small as in this case.
Be that as it may, I am now willing to believe that smokers are a bit more likely to get prostate cancer than non-smokers, and so that is yet another eason to quit smoking. But, if the other well know increased risks for other diseases such a lung cancer and heart disease don't affect a smoker, I doubt if prostate cancer fears will make his stop either.
> Risks > were elevated, but not significantly, among users of smokeless tobacco [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with >>treatment. ralphv - 16 Sep 2006 18:01 GMT Leonard, I understand your point. What was interesting to me was that heavy smokers have a significant increase in relative risk. This combined with the Roberts' study should be an eye opener for those younger men that smoke. Before looking into this topic I was not aware of the potential significance for heavy tobacco users.
RalphV www.azustoo.org
> First, you have to make sure you don't interpret 'significant increase' > incorrectly. It means that the observed result was highly unlikely to [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >>non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with > >>treatment. Steve Kramer - 19 Sep 2006 00:57 GMT > Hi ajb, > > I'm newly diagnosed with PCa, age 47, also a non-smoker (which, > contrary to what one poster wrote in this thread, I believe is relevant > to risk factor in any form of cancer), "Although several studies have suggested that smoking cigarettes raises a man's risk of developing prostate cancer, there is no solid evidence that proves it. However, because each puff of a cigarette injects nicotine and bunch of toxic chemicals into every cell of your body, it's probably a safe bet that smoking doesn't lower a man's odds of getting prostate cancer. A panel... concluded that smokers who have prostate cancer are more likely to die from it. However, smokers apparently are no more likely to develop it in the first place than anybody else." -- Walsh
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Roy - 22 Sep 2006 00:59 GMT Knowledge is power. Do not be afraid of knowing one way or the other.
My urologist said that there are 3 reasons to suggest a biopsy. (1) A DRE that reflects concern. (2) An excessive PSA level. (3) A %free PSA < 20%.
My DRE was unremarkable other than BPH which I have had for the past 4 years. My PSA was running about 3.5 for the past 2 years but moved up to over 5. But the %free was 17%. My urologist said a biopsy was thus indicated. It was performed under total anathesia, so I had zero discomfort from it. Bloody ejaculate lasted perhaps 3 weeks following; alarming at first but totally normal following a biopsy. The biopsy was positive with Gleason of 7 (3,4) in 4 cores and (4,3) in one core varying 30-50% of each sample.
My radical prostatectomy was done on Monday. I was discharged yesterday and am recovering nicely. Pain was vitually 0 level; I did not use the morphine pump at all. The catheter comes out on 10/2. Seminal vessals and lymph nodes were clean from the full path report.
Age is 63. I am looking forward to many more years of life. Its better to get full tests and know what your condition is. Incidentally, I am on a 25mg dose of Viagara (1/4 of a pill) which my urologist says helps in healing of the pipe works (my words). Now if I can get that approved by my insurance company...
Remember that everyone is an individual. Results from one person do not correlate directly to another. That's why I think it is best for you to get the full picture of you.
> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level in the range of (2.7 to 3.2) with > 4 tests in 2 years. Today I received news that my free ratio was about > 14% and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history > pf pca in the family and I'm a non smoker. Can somebody tell me if I > should be a little scared??? Is a biopsy next? Thx. AJ Steve Kramer - 22 Sep 2006 11:27 GMT > My radical prostatectomy was done on Monday. I was discharged yesterday > and am recovering nicely. Pain was vitually 0 level; I did not use the > morphine pump at all. The catheter comes out on 10/2. Seminal vessals and > lymph nodes were clean from the full path report. > > Age is 63. I am looking forward to many more years of life. Your numbers were fair going in and your path report is exactly what you want to see coming out. I think you SHOULD look forward to many more years.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
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