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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / September 2006

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PSA Question

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ajb - 15 Sep 2006 00:19 GMT
Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)  with
4 tests in  2 years.  Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14%
and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca
in the family and I'm a non smoker.   Can somebody tell me if  I should be a
little scared???    Is a biopsy next?  Thx.  AJ
Steve Jordan - 15 Sep 2006 01:25 GMT
> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)  with
> 4 tests in  2 years.  Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14%
> and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca
> in the family and I'm a non smoker.   Can somebody tell me if  I should be a
> little scared???    Is a biopsy next?  
With the above information, it is simply impossible to say, especially
for amateurs like us.

A low free PSA percentage (<15%) MAY be a PCa marker, but I do not
believe that it is definitive.

Were the PSA blood draws done with sufficient lapse of time since the
last stressful activity such as sex, DRE, bike riding, etc?

What is the result of a DRE?

Family history is helpful in guessing the odds, but again it is not
definitive. Neither is smoking (or not).

The whole field of PCa is riddled with uncertainty. That is an
unfortunate fact.

Rather than seeking medical advice from online newsgroups I recommend
that aj seek reliable information from:

1. The authoritative and objective website of the Prostate Cancer
Research Institute (PCRI) at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html, and

2. The premier PCa text _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The
Empowered Patient's Guide" by medical oncologist and PCa specialist
Stephen B. Strum, MD and PCa warrior Donna Pogliano.

Online groups can sometimes provide interesting anecdotal information
(this is MY experience) and referral to sources, as well as the
occasional flamewar (which should be ignored), but that's about it.

Regards,

Steve J

"Empowerment: taking responsibility for and authority over one's own
outcomes based on education and knowledge of the consequences  and
contingencies involved in one's own decisions. This focus provides the
uplifting energy that can sustain in the face of crisis."
--Donna Pogliano, co-author of _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_, subtitled
"The Empowered Patient's Guide."
Bob Anthony - 15 Sep 2006 05:34 GMT
> The whole field of PCa is riddled with uncertainty. That is an
> unfortunate fact.

I am of the same opinion.

B.A.
Steve Kramer - 15 Sep 2006 02:26 GMT
> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)  with
> 4 tests in  2 years.  Today I received news that my free ratio was about
> 14% and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history
> pf pca in the family and I'm a non smoker.   Can somebody tell me if  I
> should be a little scared???    Is a biopsy next?  Thx.  AJ

It might depend on the result of each of the PSA tests.  But, I suspect that
2.7 to 3.2 is not all the great.  You can do that with a serious bowell
movement.

On the other hand, 14% free PSA is not good.  It's not a definite, like a
10% might be, but it's not great.

You do not mention your digital rectal exam.  That is a very important
indicator when combined with PSA.

I think a biopsy might be suggested, but I don't think you should be scared
yet.

P.S.  Smoking has nothing to do with it.

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
ajb - 15 Sep 2006 03:09 GMT
Thanks Steve,
My DRE was fine (I had 3 done in total over two years).  At that time, my
uroligists didn't seem to concerned as my PSA velocity was within acceptable
levels (a year ago when my results rangeed from 2.4-2.7). But the latest
results show PSA 3.2 with a lower ratio.  I was told that free ratio results
with a PSA < 4 is sometimes difficult to assess. Not sure why though?
Anyway,  I surely appreciate this newsgroup and your reply. Thanks for the
links.. AJ

>> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)
>> with 4 tests in  2 years.  Today I received news that my free ratio was
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Casodex added daily 07/06
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Leonard Evens - 15 Sep 2006 05:04 GMT
> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)  with
> 4 tests in  2 years.

You don't say if there was a steady increase from 2.7 to 3.2 or it just
varied in that range.  A variation of that amount wouldn't normally
suggest anything alarming, but the overall level for a man your age
might be of some concern.   Together with the 14 percent free PSA, that
might suggest to your urologist that a biopsy is merited.  If so, the
chances are that the result would be negative.

Also, keep in mind that if you do have prostate cancer, it is extremely
likely that it has been caught in time, and that you can be cured.
Also, at your age, side effects from treatment are usually not a
problem, provided you are under the care of a skilled physician.

>  Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14%
> and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca
> in the family and I'm a non smoker.  

The first is good, the second is not relevant as far as getting prostate
cancer is concerned, but it does mean you are likely to tolerate
treatment better.

> Can somebody tell me if  I should be a
> little scared???

It alwasy makes sense to be positive.  The chances are that you don't
have prostate cancer, and even if you do, the chances are extremely good
that it can be dealt with with minimal effects on your life.  My
expereince is that trying to prepare yourself for the worst doesn't
work.   Deal with things when they actually happen, which mostly they don't.

> Is a biopsy next?  Thx.  AJ
mountainguy1958 - 15 Sep 2006 12:14 GMT
Hi ajb,

I'm newly diagnosed with PCa, age 47, also a non-smoker (which,
contrary to what one poster wrote in this thread, I believe is relevant
to risk factor in any form of cancer), with a PSA profile over the last
few years similar to yours. While I'm not as expert as many of the
consumers here, I can tell you that a little fear (enough to keep you
moving in the right direction) is probably in order.

As to a biopsy, I found that there's no need for excessive anxiety,
particularly if your urologist allows you a general anesthesia. No
pain, no memory. Versed is a beautiful thing.

I don't know about you, but tend to be more afraid of what I don't
know. When it comes to health, the more information you have the better
decisions you can make. My own fears, at the moment, again have to do
with the unknown - possible side effects from surgery, etc. But
whatever they are, I prefer to face those fears than a long slow death.

May the gods be with you.

Tom

> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)  with
> 4 tests in  2 years.  Today I received news that my free ratio was about 14%
> and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history pf pca
> in the family and I'm a non smoker.   Can somebody tell me if  I should be a
> little scared???    Is a biopsy next?  Thx.  AJ
Leonard Evens - 15 Sep 2006 14:45 GMT
> Hi ajb,
>
> I'm newly diagnosed with PCa, age 47, also a non-smoker (which,
> contrary to what one poster wrote in this thread, I believe is relevant
> to risk factor in any form of cancer),

Both Walsh and Scardino, in their books, say that studies have not shown
an increased prostate cancer risk for smokers. Of course, that doesn't
mean it is okay to snoke.  It is a risk factor for certain cancers such
as lung cancer and certain kinds of leukemia, and smokers are more
likely to suffer from a host of other diseases, most important of which
is cardiovascular disease.  As I noted previously, it is also true that
non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with
treatment.
ralphv - 15 Sep 2006 19:06 GMT
Leonard,
In spite of what Scardino and Walsh wrote there seems to be a
connection:

William Roberts, MD, and colleagues from Johns Hopkins University in
Baltimore, Md., found that among men under age 55, those with a history
of smoking were at greater risk of having cancer that had spread beyond
the prostate. The risk for current smokers was even higher than that
for former smokers. The researchers reported their results in the
Journal of Urology (Vol. 169: 512-516).

Also a long-term study points to some of the same:
Tobacco Use and Prostate Cancer: 26-Year Follow-up of US Veterans
Ann W. Hsing, Joseph K. McLaughlin, Zdenek Hrubec, William J. Blot and
Joseph F. Fraumeni, Jr.
Epidemiology and Biostatistics Program, Division of Cancer Etiology,
National Cancer Institute Executive Plaza North, Room 415, Bethesda, MD
20892

A 26-year follow-up of nearly 250,000 US veterans who responded to a
questionnaire revealed 4,607 deaths from prostate cancer, providing the
largest number of cases to date for evaluating relation to tobacco
habits. Cigarette smokers had a significant increase in relative risk
(RR = 1 .18; 95% confidence interval 1.09-1.28) and a dose response
reaching 1.51 among smokers of 40 or more cigarettes per day. Risks
were elevated, but not significantly, among users of smokeless tobacco
and pipe/ciagar smokers. Despite limited data in the literature to
support this finding, our study suggests that cigarette smoking may be
related to prostate cancer, perhaps through its effect on sex hormone
metabolism.

RalphV
www.azustoo.org
> > Hi ajb,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with
> treatment.
NICK - 16 Sep 2006 00:46 GMT
> A 26-year follow-up of nearly 250,000 US veterans who responded
> to a questionnaire revealed 4,607 deaths from prostate cancer,

How could any dead person - let alone 4,607 - respond to a
questionnaire?

But assuming they got out of their graves to do so:

1.8428% of 250,00 veterans died from prostate cancer.
What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer?

That is 1:54.26524853483820
What ratio of ALL men die from prostate cancer?

What percentage of those veterans were smokers?

How many had diagnosed PCa and were treated?

What were their ages?  WW I era?   WW II?  Korea?

Your numbers don't say anything.
ralphv - 16 Sep 2006 04:38 GMT
Nick,
I was trying to dispel Scardino and Walsh's notion that smoking is
not a contributor risk for prostate cancer.
Some comments interspersed under yours
ralphv wrote:

> A 26-year follow-up of nearly 250,000 US veterans who responded
> to a questionnaire revealed 4,607 deaths from prostate cancer,

How could any dead person - let alone 4,607 - respond to a
questionnaire?
RV>++++++>
Obviously they communicated with these men when they were alive and
some of them smoking away.

But assuming they got out of their graves to do so:

1.8428% of 250,00 veterans died from prostate cancer.
What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
RV>+++++++>
The most quoted number is around 3%. What has that to do with the
subject at hand?

That is 1:54.26524853483820
What ratio of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
RV>+++++++++>
The most quoted ratio is 1:33   Again what is the connection?

What percentage of those veterans were smokers?
RV>++++++>
Not having the full citation...do not know, but still irrelevant.

How many had diagnosed PCa and were treated?
RV>+++++++>
Treated or untreated and smokers and non-smokers still died of PCa

What were their ages?  WW I era?   WW II?  Korea?
RV>++++++++>
You failed to ask what cereal these veterans ate for breakfast.

Your numbers don't say anything.
RV>+++++++++>
You played with numbers and concluded that "my' numbers were
worthless. They are not "my" numbers. Then while playing with
numbers you missed the little fact that those men that smoked 40 or
more cigarettes a day had a 51% higher relative risk of a PCa
diagnosis. Hardly worthless! At least not for them.

RalphV
www.azustoo.org
NICK - 16 Sep 2006 08:18 GMT
>>  What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer?

> The most quoted number is around 3%. What has that to
> do with the subject at hand?

Everything.  Is the percentage higher for veterans than
the general population?

>>  What ratio of ALL men die from prostate cancer?

> The most quoted ratio is 1:33   Again what is the connection?

Do more veterans diagnosed with cancer die than
do the average population?

>>  What percentage of those veterans were smokers?

> Not having the full citation...do not know, but still irrelevant.

VERY, VERY RELEVANT.  Trying to prove that smoking
increased the chance of PCa and then say percentages
are irrelevant results in people losing credibility

> You played with numbers and concluded that "my' numbers were
> worthless. They are not "my" numbers. Then while playing with
> numbers

Not "playing with numbers."  Attempting to establish ground
rules so apples were being compared with apples, not oranges.

> you missed the little fact that those men that smoked 40 or
> more cigarettes a day had a 51% higher relative risk of a PCa
> diagnosis.

Is that what "RR," "confidence interval," "dose response" mean?
Why the hell can't plain, simple English be used.  Not everyone
is a statistician.

> Hardly worthless!

As long as they include "suggests," "may" and "perhaps" it
is worthless.  It's a guessing game.   No one knows for sure.
ralphv - 16 Sep 2006 16:16 GMT
Nick,
You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some
250,000 veterans some of whom smoke and some who do not. Veterans from
both groups died of prostate cancer. The results indicate that those
that smoke have a higher relative risk of getting PCa than those that
do not smoke. Those that smoke more than 40 cigarettes a day have the
highest relative risk. The data showed a connection between smoking and
PCa.

This study did not compare veterans to the general population or
include data to respond to your questions, that although valid, have
nothing to do with the data provided. The study is written in English
and uses statistical terms commonly used in the medical literature.

There are many Internet locations that can help understand statistical
terms for those of us not trained in statistics, but that to cope with
the disease are forced to read medical research papers. One such
location is at:
http://dorakmt.tripod.com/mtd/glosstat.html

RalphV
www.azustoo.org

> >>  What percentage of ALL men die from prostate cancer?
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>  As long as they include "suggests," "may" and "perhaps" it
>  is worthless.  It's a guessing game.   No one knows for sure.
NICK - 16 Sep 2006 19:39 GMT
> Nick,
> You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some
> 250,000 veterans some of whom smoke and some who do not. Veterans
>from  both groups died of prostate cancer. The results indicate that those
> that smoke have a higher relative risk of getting PCa than those that
> do not smoke.

I'm still not satisfied with that explanation.

Unless the veterans were divided into equal groups of 125,000
smokers and non-smokers with equal health/physical standards
- like a drug trial - the numbers don't mean a damned thing.

"Some of whom smoke and some who do not" doesn't cut the
mustard when attempting to state statistics.  The quoted report
didn't include any other health problems of those veterans which
could skew the numbers.  As someone else stated, exercise
routines, weight and other factors should have been included.
JohnHace - 17 Sep 2006 19:08 GMT
> Nick,
> You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> highest relative risk. The data showed a connection between smoking and
> PCa.

This reminds me of a study of PCa and alcohol consumption using a large
group of Harvard graduates. It found lower rates amoung those who
consume wine and beer and higher rates for those who consumed hard
liquor. But, it went on to point out that the hard liquor drinkers,
upon closer inspection, also had more unhealthy habits than the wine
drinkers. They ate more red meat, exercised less and didn't pay as
close attention to their overall health.

The same may be true for smokers.

John
Leonard Evens - 18 Sep 2006 15:24 GMT
>>Nick,
>>You are missing the point. The study was done obtaining data from some
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> John

John,

I agree that as an abstract scientific question, it is not clear whether
or not somking increases the risk of getting prostate cancer.   But, so
what? There are so many other reasons not to smoke that whether or not
it increases the risk of prostate cancer slightly seems pretty irrelevant.
Leonard Evens - 16 Sep 2006 16:15 GMT
> Leonard,
> In spite of what Scardino and Walsh wrote there seems to be a
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> (RR = 1 .18; 95% confidence interval 1.09-1.28) and a dose response
> reaching 1.51 among smokers of 40 or more cigarettes per day.

First, you have to make sure you don't interpret 'significant increase'
incorrectly.  It means that the observed result was highly unlikely to
have occurred purely from random factors in sampling.   So the
researchers believe there really is an association.  It doesn't mean the
increased risk is large.

Second, a relative risk of 1.18 is pretty small as such things go.  for
example, if I remember correctly, smokers are 8 times as likely to get
lung cancer as non-smokers.

Finally, an association need not suggest a cause.  It could be true for
example that smokers exercise less or eat less healthy diets and it is
those factors which explain the increased relative risk rather than the
smoking itself.  Confounders of this kind are particularly a problem
when the increased relative risk is small as in this case.

Be that as it may, I am now willing to believe that smokers are a bit
more likely to get prostate cancer than non-smokers, and so that is yet
another eason to quit smoking.   But, if the other well know increased
risks for other diseases such a lung cancer and heart disease don't
affect a smoker, I doubt if prostate cancer fears will make his stop
either.

> Risks
> were elevated, but not significantly, among users of smokeless tobacco
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with
>>treatment.
ralphv - 16 Sep 2006 18:01 GMT
Leonard,
I understand your point. What was interesting to me was that heavy
smokers have a significant increase in relative risk. This combined
with the Roberts' study should be an eye opener for those younger men
that smoke. Before looking into this topic I was not aware of the
potential significance for heavy tobacco users.

RalphV
www.azustoo.org

> First, you have to make sure you don't interpret 'significant increase'
> incorrectly.  It means that the observed result was highly unlikely to
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
> >>non-smokers are less likely to have certain problems associated with
> >>treatment.
Steve Kramer - 19 Sep 2006 00:57 GMT
> Hi ajb,
>
> I'm newly diagnosed with PCa, age 47, also a non-smoker (which,
> contrary to what one poster wrote in this thread, I believe is relevant
> to risk factor in any form of cancer),

"Although several studies have suggested that smoking cigarettes raises a
man's risk of developing prostate cancer, there is no solid evidence that
proves it.  However, because each puff of a cigarette injects nicotine and
bunch of toxic chemicals into every cell of your body, it's probably a safe
bet that smoking doesn't lower a man's odds of getting prostate cancer.  A
panel... concluded that smokers who have prostate cancer are more likely to
die from it.  However, smokers apparently are no more likely to develop it
in the first place than anybody else." -- Walsh

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Roy - 22 Sep 2006 00:59 GMT
Knowledge is power. Do not be afraid of knowing one way or the other.

My urologist said that there are 3 reasons to suggest a biopsy. (1) A DRE
that reflects concern. (2) An excessive PSA level. (3) A %free PSA < 20%.

My DRE was unremarkable other than BPH which I have had for the past 4
years. My PSA was running about 3.5 for the past 2 years but moved up to
over 5. But the %free was 17%. My urologist said a biopsy was thus
indicated. It was performed under total anathesia, so I had zero discomfort
from it. Bloody ejaculate lasted perhaps 3 weeks following; alarming at
first but totally normal following a biopsy. The biopsy was positive with
Gleason of 7 (3,4) in  4 cores and (4,3) in one core varying 30-50% of each
sample.

My radical prostatectomy was done on Monday. I was discharged yesterday and
am recovering nicely. Pain was vitually 0 level; I did not use the morphine
pump at all. The catheter comes out on 10/2. Seminal vessals and lymph nodes
were clean from the full path report.

Age is 63. I am looking forward to many more years of life. Its better to
get full tests and know what your condition is. Incidentally, I am on a 25mg
dose of Viagara (1/4 of a pill) which my urologist says helps in healing of
the pipe works (my words). Now if I can get that approved by my insurance
company...

Remember that everyone is an individual. Results from one person do not
correlate directly to another. That's why I think it is best for you to get
the full picture of you.

> Im a 49 year old male with a PSA level  in the range of (2.7 to 3.2)  with
> 4 tests in  2 years.  Today I received news that my free ratio was about
> 14% and I have been once again refered to my urologist. I have no history
> pf pca in the family and I'm a non smoker.   Can somebody tell me if  I
> should be a little scared???    Is a biopsy next?  Thx.  AJ
Steve Kramer - 22 Sep 2006 11:27 GMT
> My radical prostatectomy was done on Monday. I was discharged yesterday
> and am recovering nicely. Pain was vitually 0 level; I did not use the
> morphine pump at all. The catheter comes out on 10/2. Seminal vessals and
> lymph nodes were clean from the full path report.
>
> Age is 63. I am looking forward to many more years of life.

Your numbers were fair going in and your path report is exactly what you
want to see coming out.  I think you SHOULD look forward to many more years.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

 
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