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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2006

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Dr Catalona's view on Robotic RRP

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Dick Smith - 17 Aug 2006 17:40 GMT
What do you guys think?

Q: I have been hearing a lot of good things about DaVinci Robotics for
removing the prostate.  I know that you do not practice the procedure,
but what would you say about its benefits for preserving potency and
continence?  And which patients should consider it as a treatment
alternative?

A:    In my opinion, the robotic prostatectomy (often called the
DaVinci prostatectomy) is not as effective as the traditional open
prostatectomy for simultaneously accomplishing complete removal of
cancer and preserving potency.

One of the reasons is that the robot lacks the "human touch" and it is
not possible to appreciate how the prostate gland feels and how readily
it separates from the nerves and other surrounding tissues.

The robot does not handle the prostate gland as gently as the human
hand, and not infrequently the robot punctures the capsule of the
prostate, leading to positive surgical margins.

Another limitation is that with the robotic prostatectomy, the prostate
is removed by burning it out with electrocautery or a so-called
harmonic scalpel that cuts by heat, and if the heat is too near the
nerves, it irreversibly damages them. Also, if the burning is too close
to the prostate gland, it risks cutting into the prostate, resulting in
positive surgical margins and possibly leaving cancer behind.

Advocates of robotic surgery say that there is less bleeding and
greater magnification with robotic surgery. However, excellent
magnification and visualization can be provided with open surgery, and
with an experienced surgeon, few patients require blood transfusions
from another person.

With robotic surgery, it is more difficult to suture and apply
hemostatic clips and it is more difficult to perform a lymph node
dissection.

Enthusiasts of the robotic procedure claim it is "less invasive" and
has a quicker recovery time. But actually it is more invasive because
the surgeon has to go through the peritoneal cavity to get to the
prostate (a more invasive approach associated for greater risk for
injury to the bowel, major blood vessels, and the ureters and a greater
risk for later intestinal obstruction from adhesions).  Usually 6
one-inch incisions are made for robotic surgery, while for open
surgery, one 4 to 5 inch incision is made that does not enter into the
peritoneal cavity. With the smaller incision now frequently used for
open surgery, there is no material difference in the recovery time and
return to normal activity. .  .

The complications with robotic prostatectomy are more serious than with
open prostatectomy and they lead to more postoperative emergency room
visits, more re-hospitalizations, and more re-operations.

I believe that with the robotic or laparoscopic prostatectomy, the
patient and the surgeon have to make more of a stark choice between
removing all of the cancer or preserving the nerves to maintain
potency.  I believe that there is a greater likelihood of accomplishing
both objects with the increased access provided by the open approach.
Most importantly, however, the robotic prostatectomy has no track
record in terms of long-term cancer control.  If small amounts of
cancer are left behind, it may not become apparent for years.

Patients sometimes tell me that they know someone who underwent a
robotic prostatectomy a few months ago and seems to be doing fine.
However, the final outcome of the operation may not become apparent for
up to 10 years. Thus, long-term cancer cure rates are needed before one
can truly evaluate the effectiveness of the operation.

In sum, I do not believe the robotic prostatectomy is as safe a cancer
operation as open radical prostatectomy, and I do not believe that
nerve-sparing can be as readily or safely accomplished.

For patients, the most important outcomes of radical prostatectomy are:
Is he cured of his cancer?  Is he continent?  Can he have erections
sufficient for intercourse?
These questions have  been well documented for open rostatectomy.  The
jury is still out with laparoscopic/robotic prostatectomy.

The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.
ron - 17 Aug 2006 18:36 GMT
When I was considering treatment options, long-term survival was my
number 1 priority.  SE's were important, but cancer eradication and
control was at the top of my list.  As Dr. Catalona points out, there
are no comparative surgical studies that would allow someone to say
that robotic- (or lap-) RP is better, equal to or worse than open-RP.
So given my prioritization, robotic-RP wasn't a consideration for my
treatment.

There are a number of published articles claiming that robotic-RP has a
variety of benefits such as better ED and incontinence rates, lower
blood loss, shorter hospital stay, etc., etc.  There are just as many
published papers claiming that open-RP has superior results in these
same areas.  I suspect that if you are in relatively good shape
going-in, these various outcomes will all be about the same for
open-and robotic-RP if the surgeons are top-notch.

Here are a couple of recent excerpts that comment further on the open-
vs. robotic-RP question...ron
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from Medscape's review of the 2005AUA meeting
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507264?src=mp
"The positive surgical margin rate continues to be higher with
laparoscopic and robotic prostatectomy compared with the open
approach.[54,69,70] It is unclear how this will translate into
disease-free and overall survival, since the laparoscopic and robotic
experience is still immature. Nonetheless, it is cause for concern."

At the same meeting, Guillonneau, the founder on the lap-procedure for
RP said (in his abstract), "eradicating positive margins at the distal
prostatic apex remains a challenge."

Robotic-Assisted Laparoscopic Prostatectomy: Do Minimally Invasive
Approaches Offer Significant Advantages?
Joseph A. Smith Jr and S. Duke Herrell
Journal of Clinical Oncology(JCO),Nov. 10, 2005
"Separating hype from reality is sometimes difficult with many medical
procedures and this is particularly applicable to RALP. Patients who
appropriately research treatment options so that they can participate
in their own medical decisions may have difficulty interpreting
marketing efforts by hospitals and physicians. The lack of randomized
trials or even balanced prospective studies limits the ability to
analyze comparative results of RALP versus open surgical approaches."

Finally, on the subject of "the improved visual field vs. loss of
tactile feedback" discussion, here is a piece from one of Walsh's
papers

J Urol. 2005 Feb;173(2):446-9; Radical retropubic prostatectomy. How
often do experienced surgeons have positive surgical margins when there
is extraprostatic extension in the region of the neurovascular bundle?;
Hernandez DJ, Epstein JI, Trock BJ, Tsuzuki T, Carter HB, Walsh PC.
"Visual and tactile assessment during open surgery by an experienced
surgeon provides valuable information on when and where it is safe to
preserve the neurovascular bundle in patients with EPE in the region of
the NVB. Surgical approaches in which tactile sensation is muted or
absent, laparoscopic and robotic, need to undergo a similar evaluation
to determine whether magnification of the operative field is sufficient
to overcome the lack of haptic feedback and ability to palpate the
tissue"
c palmer - 17 Aug 2006 20:51 GMT
first of all - i want to point out that .....  this is not a debate on
which technique is better.   it's just how i arrived to my decision -
given the fact that i had pca and what am i going to do about it.

while there will be a difference of opinions between the two techniques,
i had this conversation with my surgeon before my operation - trying to
figure out which way for treatment.

after a very lengthy conversation,  it is like a point vs counter point.

but the big difference was this.   can you look yourself in the mirror
after it is all said and done and tell yourself that you gave your body
the best chance for survival?

that is what i had to do and this is my feelings on it.

--------------

between the two types of surgeries,  the outcome is basically going to
be the same - that is - the removal of the prostate gland and hopefully
the cancer.

on the lap RP - magnification of area,  more light - less blood loss,
quicker healing time.  boy...... that last one sure sounds good.   i
remember reading about a person who had the lap RP and was out working
in his garden on that weekend.

but on the open RP - you were laid wide open and the surgeon can get up
close and personal with the cancer.   he can feel the cancer.   and that
is what my surgeon was telling me.   when he is inside,  he can "feel"
the lymph nodes and tell if they have cancer in them.   they may look
the same, but the touch can tell you how far it has traveled.    he said
that he can get around in there and look around because everything is
accessible.

but, i also taught robotics.  and i know that they can have tactile
touch in robotics because the robot can handle an egg or exert enough
force to crush a machine part on the assembly line.

it just hasn't been be adapted to be able to give the sensory feedback
to the surgeon on what the robot is feeling.

so, as i was debating what to do..... i had a talk with the man in the
mirror.  

i had to ask myself, "am i taking the easy way out on the lap?"   and if
i had prior knowledge of which surgery could offer better odds and i
didn't take it,  could i look myself in the mirror and say i did the
best for myself.

then, the answer because obvious...... for me.... that is.   open RP.

yes,  it was a longer recovery time, but it's been over 3 years and i'm
still undetectable.   if the pca were to come back,  i would feel that
i've given it my best shot and accept the next round of treatment
options.

but as the question and answer pointed out.  the importance is in the
skill of the surgeon - not the technique and i still believe that should
be the number one factor in the decision for treatment regardless of the
type of surgery.

after all,  paint is paint, but there is a lot of difference between a
beginner and the masters of the arts.  it wasn't the paint,  just how
they used it.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
David&Joan - 18 Aug 2006 02:02 GMT
I think we can all agree on the last line of this Q&A:

The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.

David
John Loomis - 18 Aug 2006 02:52 GMT
Robots...
A Dr. must guide the robot.  A nurse or three must guide the patient.
There must be an anesthesia person....
Also:
Wife
Mom
Dad?
I believe in robotics, and when it comes to the human body, and dealing with
fat tissue, extra bleeding, extracuricular activities, I would rather have a
Dr. that has been there and done that.
I would not mind a Robot, but a DR. is still present?
Am I correct?
I do not think that the Robot method is the one true  way, but it is the
"cutting" edge."
I had regular, RP...did great.... 1999
I am now 7 years, waiting for the PSA.....
Good wishes to all my friends and Prostate Cancer Sufferers.
I wish I had a majic pill.
I would send that to all my friends..
John
> What do you guys think?
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.
Alan Meyer - 18 Aug 2006 03:29 GMT
Dr. Catalona wrote:
> ...
> A:    In my opinion, the robotic prostatectomy (often called the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ... <... some serious eye opener's elided ...>

It was fascinating to hear this, as it were, from the horse's
mouth.  He convinced me.

> The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.

I'm a believer.

   Alan
Admin@DrYew.com - 18 Aug 2006 04:23 GMT
Well, Dr. Catalona is considered an expert in the field. But, keep in
mind that most people, myself included, probably have certain biases
and agendas.

I will say that there is a significant learning curve to doing robotic
prostatectomies well. If your surgeon hasn't done at least 100 of these
cases, I'd be cautious. There is a lot of pressure now to get going
with this new technology, and a lot of hospitals and doctors are
playing "catch-up". Don't let yourself get pushed into any procedure
without first asking all the questions you can think of. Prostate
cancer is slow, so take your time and get all the information. Get
second, third, even fourth opinions.

As to my opinions.. traditional open prostatectomy and robotic
prostatectomy are most-likely
EQUAL in terms of prostate cancer cure. In experienced hands, positive
margin rates should be EQUAL or LESS with robotic prostatectomy. My
rates are below the rates of most published open surgery series. From a
cancer cure standpoint alone, I would agree that you should go with the
surgeon first, rather than the technique. But, the other factors like
speed of recovery, urinary control, catheter time, return to work,
etc.. in my mind, there is NO COMPARISON. I've done prostatectomy open,
laparoscopic, and now robotic. I only do robotic now. These patients do
really well after robotic surgery.

Best wishes on your journey.
===
http://www.DrYew.com
http://www.SanDiegoRoboticProstatectomy.com

> What do you guys think?
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.
Bob Anthony - 18 Aug 2006 13:39 GMT
Wow! I've been on this ng for almost 2 years now and I must say that I'm
quite surprised to have a prostate cancer surgeon like Dr. Yew actually
answer. I cannot recall any doctor/surgeon doing this, although I may be
wrong. Basically his explanation is the reason why I chose the robotic
procedure after reading many books, and interviewing 5 doctors
practicing open RP, RT, laparoscopic RP, and the robotic RP procedure.
Thank you Dr. Yew for your time and your thoughts.

B.A.
Steve Kramer - 18 Aug 2006 15:15 GMT
> Wow! I've been on this ng for almost 2 years now and I must say that I'm
> quite surprised to have a prostate cancer surgeon like Dr. Yew actually
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> open RP, RT, laparoscopic RP, and the robotic RP procedure.
> Thank you Dr. Yew for your time and your thoughts.

Conversely, I am surprised that out of the thousands, maybe hundreds of
thousands, of uros and medical oncologists, this the first time in five
years that I have seen a doctor (other than Dr. Williams, radiology) with a
practice pertinent to this NG.

I salute Yew!

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

dale.j. - 19 Aug 2006 00:25 GMT
> What do you guys think?
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
> The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.

"The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique".

How true.  I had a good one.

dale j.  Minnesota

Signature

Email:  dalej2@mac.com

Roy - 19 Aug 2006 11:06 GMT
I'll chime in with my 2 cents - for my first posting to this ng.

My urologist , who trained on robotics ay the Mayo, pretty much arrived at
the same conclusions as the answer posted. He does all of the procedures:
HT, seeds, external radiation, robotics, and Radical. He explained the pos
and cons of each. But his recommendation for my condition (psa 6.6, %free
17, Biopsy 4 cores G3,4; 1 core 4,3; 1 core focal stromal hyperplasia), DRE
uremarkable other than enlarged, age 63, no other negative health
conditions) for the best long term outcome was a radical prostatecomy. His
opinions about the ability to feel the area - get in there with his hands -
would be the best way to maximize the preservation of unaffected nerves and
muscles.

I think that each type of thrapy is going to be specific to a particular
patient with a particular condition and set of circumstances. There is no
one size fits all.

I am scheduled for surgey on 9/18. My wife and I leave for a previously
planned Mediterranian cruise on 8/29, so my mind is going to be occupied
with a lot of good things until surgery. In my brief exposure to this life
changing event, I have found that talking about it is the best course of
action, mentally.  I'll report back after surgery.
Leonard Evens - 19 Aug 2006 16:15 GMT
> I'll chime in with my 2 cents - for my first posting to this ng.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> changing event, I have found that talking about it is the best course of
> action, mentally.  I'll report back after surgery.

You should never base your decisions on anecdotal information, but now
that you've made your decision, you might be interested in knowing my
experience.   My diagnosis was very similar to yours.  I was 67 at my
RP.  My post surgial pathology was great: negative margins, organ
confined.  Five years later I still showed no signs of recurrence.  I
was off pads a month after the catheter came out and regained erections
after about 18 months.  Before that I used a pump.   I hope you do as
well or better.  Good luck.
Steve Kramer - 19 Aug 2006 20:23 GMT
> I'll chime in with my 2 cents - for my first posting to this ng.

Sorry to meet you under these circumstances, but welcome to the NG.

> I am scheduled for surgey on 9/18. My wife and I leave for a previously
> planned Mediterranian cruise on 8/29, so my mind is going to be occupied
> with a lot of good things until surgery.

My wife had planned a Caribbean cruise for our 25th Anniversary.  Three days
after returning, I was on the operating table.  The cruise was a wonderful
diversion.  And, I did a lot of walking in the onboard gym to prepare myself
for the surgery.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

 
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