Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / August 2006
Dr Catalona's view on Robotic RRP
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Dick Smith - 17 Aug 2006 17:40 GMT What do you guys think?
Q: I have been hearing a lot of good things about DaVinci Robotics for removing the prostate. I know that you do not practice the procedure, but what would you say about its benefits for preserving potency and continence? And which patients should consider it as a treatment alternative?
A: In my opinion, the robotic prostatectomy (often called the DaVinci prostatectomy) is not as effective as the traditional open prostatectomy for simultaneously accomplishing complete removal of cancer and preserving potency.
One of the reasons is that the robot lacks the "human touch" and it is not possible to appreciate how the prostate gland feels and how readily it separates from the nerves and other surrounding tissues.
The robot does not handle the prostate gland as gently as the human hand, and not infrequently the robot punctures the capsule of the prostate, leading to positive surgical margins.
Another limitation is that with the robotic prostatectomy, the prostate is removed by burning it out with electrocautery or a so-called harmonic scalpel that cuts by heat, and if the heat is too near the nerves, it irreversibly damages them. Also, if the burning is too close to the prostate gland, it risks cutting into the prostate, resulting in positive surgical margins and possibly leaving cancer behind.
Advocates of robotic surgery say that there is less bleeding and greater magnification with robotic surgery. However, excellent magnification and visualization can be provided with open surgery, and with an experienced surgeon, few patients require blood transfusions from another person.
With robotic surgery, it is more difficult to suture and apply hemostatic clips and it is more difficult to perform a lymph node dissection.
Enthusiasts of the robotic procedure claim it is "less invasive" and has a quicker recovery time. But actually it is more invasive because the surgeon has to go through the peritoneal cavity to get to the prostate (a more invasive approach associated for greater risk for injury to the bowel, major blood vessels, and the ureters and a greater risk for later intestinal obstruction from adhesions). Usually 6 one-inch incisions are made for robotic surgery, while for open surgery, one 4 to 5 inch incision is made that does not enter into the peritoneal cavity. With the smaller incision now frequently used for open surgery, there is no material difference in the recovery time and return to normal activity. . .
The complications with robotic prostatectomy are more serious than with open prostatectomy and they lead to more postoperative emergency room visits, more re-hospitalizations, and more re-operations.
I believe that with the robotic or laparoscopic prostatectomy, the patient and the surgeon have to make more of a stark choice between removing all of the cancer or preserving the nerves to maintain potency. I believe that there is a greater likelihood of accomplishing both objects with the increased access provided by the open approach. Most importantly, however, the robotic prostatectomy has no track record in terms of long-term cancer control. If small amounts of cancer are left behind, it may not become apparent for years.
Patients sometimes tell me that they know someone who underwent a robotic prostatectomy a few months ago and seems to be doing fine. However, the final outcome of the operation may not become apparent for up to 10 years. Thus, long-term cancer cure rates are needed before one can truly evaluate the effectiveness of the operation.
In sum, I do not believe the robotic prostatectomy is as safe a cancer operation as open radical prostatectomy, and I do not believe that nerve-sparing can be as readily or safely accomplished.
For patients, the most important outcomes of radical prostatectomy are: Is he cured of his cancer? Is he continent? Can he have erections sufficient for intercourse? These questions have been well documented for open rostatectomy. The jury is still out with laparoscopic/robotic prostatectomy.
The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.
ron - 17 Aug 2006 18:36 GMT When I was considering treatment options, long-term survival was my number 1 priority. SE's were important, but cancer eradication and control was at the top of my list. As Dr. Catalona points out, there are no comparative surgical studies that would allow someone to say that robotic- (or lap-) RP is better, equal to or worse than open-RP. So given my prioritization, robotic-RP wasn't a consideration for my treatment.
There are a number of published articles claiming that robotic-RP has a variety of benefits such as better ED and incontinence rates, lower blood loss, shorter hospital stay, etc., etc. There are just as many published papers claiming that open-RP has superior results in these same areas. I suspect that if you are in relatively good shape going-in, these various outcomes will all be about the same for open-and robotic-RP if the surgeons are top-notch.
Here are a couple of recent excerpts that comment further on the open- vs. robotic-RP question...ron ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is from Medscape's review of the 2005AUA meeting http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/507264?src=mp "The positive surgical margin rate continues to be higher with laparoscopic and robotic prostatectomy compared with the open approach.[54,69,70] It is unclear how this will translate into disease-free and overall survival, since the laparoscopic and robotic experience is still immature. Nonetheless, it is cause for concern."
At the same meeting, Guillonneau, the founder on the lap-procedure for RP said (in his abstract), "eradicating positive margins at the distal prostatic apex remains a challenge."
Robotic-Assisted Laparoscopic Prostatectomy: Do Minimally Invasive Approaches Offer Significant Advantages? Joseph A. Smith Jr and S. Duke Herrell Journal of Clinical Oncology(JCO),Nov. 10, 2005 "Separating hype from reality is sometimes difficult with many medical procedures and this is particularly applicable to RALP. Patients who appropriately research treatment options so that they can participate in their own medical decisions may have difficulty interpreting marketing efforts by hospitals and physicians. The lack of randomized trials or even balanced prospective studies limits the ability to analyze comparative results of RALP versus open surgical approaches."
Finally, on the subject of "the improved visual field vs. loss of tactile feedback" discussion, here is a piece from one of Walsh's papers
J Urol. 2005 Feb;173(2):446-9; Radical retropubic prostatectomy. How often do experienced surgeons have positive surgical margins when there is extraprostatic extension in the region of the neurovascular bundle?; Hernandez DJ, Epstein JI, Trock BJ, Tsuzuki T, Carter HB, Walsh PC. "Visual and tactile assessment during open surgery by an experienced surgeon provides valuable information on when and where it is safe to preserve the neurovascular bundle in patients with EPE in the region of the NVB. Surgical approaches in which tactile sensation is muted or absent, laparoscopic and robotic, need to undergo a similar evaluation to determine whether magnification of the operative field is sufficient to overcome the lack of haptic feedback and ability to palpate the tissue"
c palmer - 17 Aug 2006 20:51 GMT first of all - i want to point out that ..... this is not a debate on which technique is better. it's just how i arrived to my decision - given the fact that i had pca and what am i going to do about it.
while there will be a difference of opinions between the two techniques, i had this conversation with my surgeon before my operation - trying to figure out which way for treatment.
after a very lengthy conversation, it is like a point vs counter point.
but the big difference was this. can you look yourself in the mirror after it is all said and done and tell yourself that you gave your body the best chance for survival?
that is what i had to do and this is my feelings on it.
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between the two types of surgeries, the outcome is basically going to be the same - that is - the removal of the prostate gland and hopefully the cancer.
on the lap RP - magnification of area, more light - less blood loss, quicker healing time. boy...... that last one sure sounds good. i remember reading about a person who had the lap RP and was out working in his garden on that weekend.
but on the open RP - you were laid wide open and the surgeon can get up close and personal with the cancer. he can feel the cancer. and that is what my surgeon was telling me. when he is inside, he can "feel" the lymph nodes and tell if they have cancer in them. they may look the same, but the touch can tell you how far it has traveled. he said that he can get around in there and look around because everything is accessible.
but, i also taught robotics. and i know that they can have tactile touch in robotics because the robot can handle an egg or exert enough force to crush a machine part on the assembly line.
it just hasn't been be adapted to be able to give the sensory feedback to the surgeon on what the robot is feeling.
so, as i was debating what to do..... i had a talk with the man in the mirror.
i had to ask myself, "am i taking the easy way out on the lap?" and if i had prior knowledge of which surgery could offer better odds and i didn't take it, could i look myself in the mirror and say i did the best for myself.
then, the answer because obvious...... for me.... that is. open RP.
yes, it was a longer recovery time, but it's been over 3 years and i'm still undetectable. if the pca were to come back, i would feel that i've given it my best shot and accept the next round of treatment options.
but as the question and answer pointed out. the importance is in the skill of the surgeon - not the technique and i still believe that should be the number one factor in the decision for treatment regardless of the type of surgery.
after all, paint is paint, but there is a lot of difference between a beginner and the masters of the arts. it wasn't the paint, just how they used it.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
David&Joan - 18 Aug 2006 02:02 GMT I think we can all agree on the last line of this Q&A:
The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique.
David
John Loomis - 18 Aug 2006 02:52 GMT Robots... A Dr. must guide the robot. A nurse or three must guide the patient. There must be an anesthesia person.... Also: Wife Mom Dad? I believe in robotics, and when it comes to the human body, and dealing with fat tissue, extra bleeding, extracuricular activities, I would rather have a Dr. that has been there and done that. I would not mind a Robot, but a DR. is still present? Am I correct? I do not think that the Robot method is the one true way, but it is the "cutting" edge." I had regular, RP...did great.... 1999 I am now 7 years, waiting for the PSA..... Good wishes to all my friends and Prostate Cancer Sufferers. I wish I had a majic pill. I would send that to all my friends.. John
> What do you guys think? > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique. Alan Meyer - 18 Aug 2006 03:29 GMT Dr. Catalona wrote:
> ... > A: In my opinion, the robotic prostatectomy (often called the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ... <... some serious eye opener's elided ...> It was fascinating to hear this, as it were, from the horse's mouth. He convinced me.
> The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique. I'm a believer.
Alan
Admin@DrYew.com - 18 Aug 2006 04:23 GMT Well, Dr. Catalona is considered an expert in the field. But, keep in mind that most people, myself included, probably have certain biases and agendas.
I will say that there is a significant learning curve to doing robotic prostatectomies well. If your surgeon hasn't done at least 100 of these cases, I'd be cautious. There is a lot of pressure now to get going with this new technology, and a lot of hospitals and doctors are playing "catch-up". Don't let yourself get pushed into any procedure without first asking all the questions you can think of. Prostate cancer is slow, so take your time and get all the information. Get second, third, even fourth opinions.
As to my opinions.. traditional open prostatectomy and robotic prostatectomy are most-likely EQUAL in terms of prostate cancer cure. In experienced hands, positive margin rates should be EQUAL or LESS with robotic prostatectomy. My rates are below the rates of most published open surgery series. From a cancer cure standpoint alone, I would agree that you should go with the surgeon first, rather than the technique. But, the other factors like speed of recovery, urinary control, catheter time, return to work, etc.. in my mind, there is NO COMPARISON. I've done prostatectomy open, laparoscopic, and now robotic. I only do robotic now. These patients do really well after robotic surgery.
Best wishes on your journey. === http://www.DrYew.com http://www.SanDiegoRoboticProstatectomy.com
> What do you guys think? > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique. Bob Anthony - 18 Aug 2006 13:39 GMT Wow! I've been on this ng for almost 2 years now and I must say that I'm quite surprised to have a prostate cancer surgeon like Dr. Yew actually answer. I cannot recall any doctor/surgeon doing this, although I may be wrong. Basically his explanation is the reason why I chose the robotic procedure after reading many books, and interviewing 5 doctors practicing open RP, RT, laparoscopic RP, and the robotic RP procedure. Thank you Dr. Yew for your time and your thoughts.
B.A.
Steve Kramer - 18 Aug 2006 15:15 GMT > Wow! I've been on this ng for almost 2 years now and I must say that I'm > quite surprised to have a prostate cancer surgeon like Dr. Yew actually [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > open RP, RT, laparoscopic RP, and the robotic RP procedure. > Thank you Dr. Yew for your time and your thoughts. Conversely, I am surprised that out of the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of uros and medical oncologists, this the first time in five years that I have seen a doctor (other than Dr. Williams, radiology) with a practice pertinent to this NG.
I salute Yew!
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
dale.j. - 19 Aug 2006 00:25 GMT > What do you guys think? > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique. "The most important factor is the surgeon and not the technique".
How true. I had a good one.
dale j. Minnesota
 Signature Email: dalej2@mac.com
Roy - 19 Aug 2006 11:06 GMT I'll chime in with my 2 cents - for my first posting to this ng.
My urologist , who trained on robotics ay the Mayo, pretty much arrived at the same conclusions as the answer posted. He does all of the procedures: HT, seeds, external radiation, robotics, and Radical. He explained the pos and cons of each. But his recommendation for my condition (psa 6.6, %free 17, Biopsy 4 cores G3,4; 1 core 4,3; 1 core focal stromal hyperplasia), DRE uremarkable other than enlarged, age 63, no other negative health conditions) for the best long term outcome was a radical prostatecomy. His opinions about the ability to feel the area - get in there with his hands - would be the best way to maximize the preservation of unaffected nerves and muscles.
I think that each type of thrapy is going to be specific to a particular patient with a particular condition and set of circumstances. There is no one size fits all.
I am scheduled for surgey on 9/18. My wife and I leave for a previously planned Mediterranian cruise on 8/29, so my mind is going to be occupied with a lot of good things until surgery. In my brief exposure to this life changing event, I have found that talking about it is the best course of action, mentally. I'll report back after surgery.
Leonard Evens - 19 Aug 2006 16:15 GMT > I'll chime in with my 2 cents - for my first posting to this ng. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > changing event, I have found that talking about it is the best course of > action, mentally. I'll report back after surgery. You should never base your decisions on anecdotal information, but now that you've made your decision, you might be interested in knowing my experience. My diagnosis was very similar to yours. I was 67 at my RP. My post surgial pathology was great: negative margins, organ confined. Five years later I still showed no signs of recurrence. I was off pads a month after the catheter came out and regained erections after about 18 months. Before that I used a pump. I hope you do as well or better. Good luck.
Steve Kramer - 19 Aug 2006 20:23 GMT > I'll chime in with my 2 cents - for my first posting to this ng. Sorry to meet you under these circumstances, but welcome to the NG.
> I am scheduled for surgey on 9/18. My wife and I leave for a previously > planned Mediterranian cruise on 8/29, so my mind is going to be occupied > with a lot of good things until surgery. My wife had planned a Caribbean cruise for our 25th Anniversary. Three days after returning, I was on the operating table. The cruise was a wonderful diversion. And, I did a lot of walking in the onboard gym to prepare myself for the surgery.
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06, 6/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145 Casodex added daily 07/06 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
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