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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / July 2006

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Pos/Neg Margins

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RML - 23 Jul 2006 17:29 GMT
When a surgeon performs a RP, how do they determine where to make the
margin, so as to better insure that the margin is negative ? Do they
sample tissue during surgery, to see where the cancer stops?
dave perry - 23 Jul 2006 18:46 GMT
Good questions.  I would guess they cut away as much as they can
without jeopardizing surrounding tissues such as the bladder, rectum,
and the precious final sphincter at the bottom that keeps us continent.
Often, a surgeon can see cancer at the edge of the sample and and will
dig deeper to try to get it all.  My original interpretation was that a
prostate is like a walnut, you just go in and pluck it out.  It turns
out, the edges of the gland aren't so well-defined so there is a lot of
educated guesswork involved.  Experience sure helps too.  I don't
believe they sample tissue during surgery - at least my doctor didn't
and I've not heard of them doing anything like that in prostate
surgery.  I read back in 2003 when I was diagnosed that a suspicious
lymph node is sent up to see if cancer has spread and if so, the
surgery is discontinued - no point in taking the prostate out at that
point.  I assume they still do that.
Dave Perry
> When a surgeon performs a RP, how do they determine where to make the
> margin, so as to better insure that the margin is negative ? Do they
> sample tissue during surgery, to see where the cancer stops?
Robin Fairbairns - 30 Jul 2006 10:05 GMT
>> When a surgeon performs a RP, how do they determine where to make the
>> margin, so as to better insure that the margin is negative ? Do they
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>surgery is discontinued - no point in taking the prostate out at that
>point.  I assume they still do that.

they told me they would do that, before my op in april.

the cancer in mine (they say) was right up against the edge of the
gland; however, there was nowhere to go for more excision without
shaving stuff off the pelvic bone.

the things you learn about your own anatomy...
Signature

Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

DonC - 23 Jul 2006 18:50 GMT
> When a surgeon performs a RP, how do they determine where to make the
> margin, so as to better insure that the margin is negative ? Do they
> sample tissue during surgery, to see where the cancer stops?

They take the entire prostate -- margins and all.  The entire prostate is
then coated with ink, frozen, sliced into layers and examined under a
microscope by pathologists in a  lab. The ink marks the location of the
margin so the pathologist can determine if cancer cells have breeched the
margins.
Arthur Johnson - 23 Jul 2006 22:33 GMT
How would you evaluate my path. report?  You
may have answered a question  for me.  My
path.report showed pc R.lobe. G 3+4  WITH EXTENSION CLOSE TO , BUT NOT
THROUGH
the prostatic capsule.  Is shows perineural & lymphovascular invasion.
It is not seen extending
outside  the capsule.  But does involve tissue taken at  the proximal
margin.  path. Dr . T2a

Yro changed it  from T2a to T3a on his report and
called it microscopic extension to the proximal margin.  Uro. may have
cut to close to the prostate
during RP.  RP & IMRT failed  & now headed for HT
Bad news.  Thanks in advance, Art
Bill - 24 Jul 2006 00:08 GMT
Per Walsh "close margins are almost always negative." He describes the
"margins" as tissue that wraps the gland like wrapping paper. I suspect
that your recurrence is not due to those margins but to the
"lymphovascular" involvement. I don't know if that is a general term
referring to lymph nodes or just to ducts or what but I believe that
that right there indicates non organ-confined disease, if not
metastatic disease. I had seminal vesicle involvement but the surgeon
said the capsule looked intact. I think PCa can spread w/o actually
breaking through the capsule - via the circulatory and lymphatic
systems. If you had only local nodal involvement, SRT was a reasonable
shot at cure but apparently there is more. Good luck.

Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA .93
Memphis
I.P. Freely - 24 Jul 2006 00:23 GMT
> When a surgeon performs a RP, how do they determine where to make the
> margin, so as to better insure that the margin is negative ? Do they
> sample tissue during surgery, to see where the cancer stops?

Presuming they do not suspect spread beyond the prostate, they start
with cutting out the entire prostate plus a prescribed set of parts
which a) are prone to have cancer and b) will be useless once the
prostate is gone so will never be missed. As they cut, every border of
the removed meat is examined by the surgeon's eye and touch for
real-time evaluation of spread (an advantage of RRP over robotic RP);
appearance and feel (e.g., sticky) can distinguish cancer beyond some
certain level of advancement. They will also send suspected or likely
snippets/slices of marginal tissue (margins = borders of the removed
meat, whether it's the prostate capsule or your left butt-cheek if they
had to follow sticky cancerous tissue that far; my point is that a
"margin" is not a sack the prostate lives in -- it's merely the outer
surfaces of whatever got cut out, even if it's butt-cheek meat) to the
pathologist for real-time evaluation. If s/he finds cancer at the
margins, s/he picks up the phone and tells the surgeon to keep cutting
at the specific site where s/he found positive (cancerous) margins. (At
some point, of course, the surgeon's got to stop if she feels  it's a
lost battle. I'm guessing no RRP has progressed to the patient's
gluteous maximus)

OTOH, if they suspect cancer beyond the prostate in advance, or maybe
even if they don't, they will sample some lymph nodes for, again,
real-time assessment by the pathologist waiting in the lab. If s/he
phones back with cancer in the nodes, it's decision time; Is the spread
bad enough to render surgery useless, in which case surgery will stop?
(Some docs always abort if any lymph nodes show cancer; Walsh and many
others say that's an overreaction. I made sure in advance that my
surgeon's prime directive was, "If in doubt, cut it out". I consider
surgery a nuisance, not a catastrophe, in that it's temporary and it's
pain-free (DRUGS, remember?). I also infinitely prefer curative
impotence and incontinence to certain death by PC, given a choice.)

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 24 Jul 2006 01:08 GMT
> When a surgeon performs a RP, how do they determine where to make the
> margin, so as to better insure that the margin is negative ? Do they
> sample tissue during surgery, to see where the cancer stops?

Ha!  And that's why you want someone with lots and lots of experience.  They
cut it where they can.  It's a very small piece of tissue buried deep in a
cave of tissue.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum


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