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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2003

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Hormones - love 'em or leave 'em?

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Alan Meyer - 28 Oct 2003 21:37 GMT
I've made all the decisions about my treatment (HDR + EBRT + HDR) except
one - whether to get Lupron hormone injections or not.

One doctor advises it, another does not.  One says the side effects are
relatively mild, the other says we aren't sure what all the side effects
are.  One says the hormones reduce the chance of early death from prostate
cancer, the other says "maybe, maybe not, it hasn't be shown to be so for
people in other than high risk (extra-capsular tumor penetration, Gleason
8-9, PSA > 20) categories.  One says get hormones now, before the radiation.
One says only get them if the radiation fails.

So, for you who have had hormone treatments, how did you find them?

What side effects affected you?
Did libido come back after hormone treatment stopped?
Did you have mood changes or depression?
Did you experience osteoporosis?  Breast enlargement?  Hot flashes?

Any other thoughts about hormones?

I have to make up my mind by this coming Friday in order to schedule myself
for the next open HDR slot.

Thanks.

  Alan
c palmer - 29 Oct 2003 01:18 GMT
hi alan - you already know the pros and the cons, so i'm not going to
tell you something that you may know.  yes, the lupron shots have their
negative effect.  the loss of libido, the softness of the body, the
enlarged breasts, the hot flashes and of course, let's not forget the
crying spells due to hormone imbalances.  but you ask for an opinion and
here it is.

knowing what i know about how the HT works and how you can use it with
the other treatments as a supplemental,  i would put my vote with lupron
shot before the HDR treatment.  my reasoning is simple.  it is a known
fact that lupron starves the hormone sensitive cancer for a short period
of time.  it shrinks back and that is when it is more sensitive to
radiation and hence my vote.  

i view the lupron shot at this stage of the game, not as a treatment
that is used in stage 3 or 4, but as a tool that may gives you a better
chance of life in that fact that you got a chance of killing those bad
boys.  if the cost of a little side effects of the lupron, it's worth
it.

and yes, after you are off the lupron, everything comes back to normal
as far
as libido, etc. as well as can be expected.

hope the information helps.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Alan Meyer - 29 Oct 2003 16:00 GMT
I didn't want to hear that Curtis.  I wanted someone to tell me,
"Nah, you don't need that, it's just a pain in the a.s and doesn't
do any good."

But then I'd also like someone to tell me, "Alan, you really don't
have cancer.  It was all a mistake.  You don't need any treatment
at all."

Pulling my head out of the sand, and recognizing that what I don't
know sure as hell will kill me, I see that your advice is probably
sound, and I thank you for it.

I've been studying everything I can find on PubMed, Cancer.gov,
Phoenix5, and other sites and will try to make a decision as soon
as I can.  Unfortunately, the evidence is not just unclear, it's
sometimes downright contradictory.

Regards,

  Alan

> hi alan - you already know the pros and the cons, so i'm not going to
> tell you something that you may know.  yes, the lupron shots have their
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
c palmer - 29 Oct 2003 19:04 GMT
hi alan - "nah, you don't need that, it's just a pain in the a.s and
doesn't do any good."  see, i said, it.  now, you can feel better :)

as you have been around here for awhile, you know one thing about me,
i'm not going to tell them everything is ok  when it is not.  at least,
i'm being honest.  

i would have done you and myself a great disservice if i had not be
straight up on this.

and it's like you said, you would have preferred to hear that phrase
from me and i would have loved to have said - if it was true.

you will have to get the shot, and then there will be a waiting period
for the shot to do its thing, then go in and get your treatment and put
those bad guys down.  
just remember, every day we are dealt a hand of cards and each hand is a
winner and each hand is a loser, it's how we play the game.  

i still think you can win this hand.  i don't see why you can't. if you
use all the tools at your deposal.

i think it was said the best, the lack of         dignity of it all,
isn't so bad, when you consider the alternative.  so keep remembering
that as you get your hot flashes, your crying spells, and little
breasts.  

myself, i would look at it differently,  look at getting in contact with
your feminine side.   :)

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Heather - 29 Oct 2003 04:18 GMT
Hi Alan......

I must have missed your decision to have the HDR/EBRT treatment when we
were on holiday.  Congratulations on your decision.  Ron has never
regretted having it done this way.  We go on Thursday to get his first
PSA......the EBRT ended 6 weeks ago.  I don't expect a major drop, but
will be thrilled if it does.....at 3 months I will expect a lower one.

Where are you having it done?  Ron had two HDR's a week apart and then
25 EBRT......and if you have any questions, just email me.  I will put
my address (coded) at the end.

All the best and Ron will be glad to have a 'partner in crime' on this
group, grin.  Oh.......and when I asked about HT back in the summer,
they said he didn't need it.  YMMV.

Heather  (heatherfig at rogers dot com)

> I've made all the decisions about my treatment (HDR + EBRT + HDR) except
> one - whether to get Lupron hormone injections or not.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>    Alan
Alan Meyer - 29 Oct 2003 15:49 GMT
Heather,

You didn't miss my decision.  I made it the day I posted the question
on hormones.  You saw it first right here.

One of the propositions that every single article I've read seems to
agree on is that the long term outcomes for radiation are as good as
for surgery.  I think that, psychologically, that's hard to accept.  My own
cousin, an oncologist specializing in breast cancer, told me that the
long term outcomes are the same, but if he had a tumor he'd want
surgery just because, psychologically, he'd want to be rid of it.

For me, the psychological factors are not as strong.  I had a knee
surgery once that was a disaster and made me very leery of allowing
someone to cut me open in order to heal me.  So it was easier for
me to see past the urge to cut the damned thing out and take the
proposition of equal outcomes seriously.

I also see clear evidence that, the higher the radiation dose, the
better the long term outcome.  So I'm hoping that the relatively new
HDR therapy may have an even better long term outcome than
more standard RT - which is already very good.  My understanding
is that the early evidence for HDR is that it's as good as any other
radiation therapy.  Whether it's better or not is apparently not yet
established.

The hormone question is (hopefully) the last real bear for me.  The
more I research it the more disturbed I get.  It seems to have clear
benefit for patients with Gleason >= 8, and no demonstrated
benefit for patients with Gleason <= 6.  I'm a 7, and the evidence
is not well established either way.  It might be just the thing to tip
the balance and save my life, or it might be an unnecessary
treatment that hurts the quality of my life now, and over the long term
future.

Whatever choice I make, I'll never be able to tell if it was the right
one.  If I get the hormones and don't die, I won't know if the hormones
contributed to my recovery.  If I don't get them and the disease
comes back, I won't know if hormones would have prevented it.

So, as the man says, you pays your money and takes your choice.

The actual HDR and EBRT will be done at the National Cancer
Institute.  I work there as a computer programmer and naturally turned
to them when I was diagnosed.  I'm entering a clinical trial that tests
MRI guiding HDR catheter placment instead of the standard
ultrasound.

It turns out that treatment at NCI is experimental only.  They run
clinical trials.  They don't do off-the-shelf standard treatment.
However, because it's government paid for medical research,
it's also completely free!  Surprisingly, in spite of their advanced
capabilities and free treatment and proximity to Washington DC
where there are many uninsured people, they have trouble
getting enough patients for their clinical trials.  People are
afraid they will be laboratory rats.

There is another excellent place where I could be treated under my
insurance plan (Greater Baltimore Medical Center), but I've gotten
to like the science geeks at NCI and I'm going to try out the role
of lab rat for them.

   Alan

> Hi Alan......
>
[quoted text clipped - 48 lines]
> >
> >    Alan
Heather - 29 Oct 2003 20:05 GMT
Neat!!  I am not losing my mind after all, grin.  I am glad to see what
you have written because I felt like a 'voice in the wilderness'.....

Ron was a Gleason 7 (4 +3) and his PSA in June was 10.08....it had been
11.4 in February.

We are part of a study as these two oncologists have been doing this
procedure for 2 years and are now collecting data on it.  They feel it
is better than standard radiation......I have to agree.  Attacking the
cancer cells from inside the prostate seems much better to me.  And he
had the lower abdomen radiated as well (I asked about them doing that to
cover the lymph nodes.....and they agreed).  It wasn't part of the study
protocol, so they had to check to see if it could be included.

Another curious question I asked Ron was 'how do you feel about having
cancer in your body'???  Didn't worry him a bit coz he said the
radiation would get rid of it.  He had no great "need or desire" to have
the cancer surgically removed......he was adamant on the NO surgery
aspect.  Each person reacts differently I guess.

I had a breast lump that turned out to be benign.  Not sure how I would
have reacted had it not been 5 years ago.  But they are now using this
HDR treatment on breast and lung cancer.  So I am sure that I would NOW
have what you and Ron are having.....way less invasive.

I saw what my Mum went thru after a mastectomy.  Standard operating
procedure at the time, but not automatically done now.  And her breast
lump was 1/10th the size of mine.  But I knew in my heart that mine was
caused by the Hormone Replacement Therapy and was an estrogen-receptive
tumour.  It shrunk to 1/4 of the size after the biopsies and going off
HRT.

Heather

> Heather,
>
[quoted text clipped - 112 lines]
> > >
> > >    Alan
 
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