Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / October 2003
Hormones - love 'em or leave 'em?
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Alan Meyer - 28 Oct 2003 21:37 GMT I've made all the decisions about my treatment (HDR + EBRT + HDR) except one - whether to get Lupron hormone injections or not.
One doctor advises it, another does not. One says the side effects are relatively mild, the other says we aren't sure what all the side effects are. One says the hormones reduce the chance of early death from prostate cancer, the other says "maybe, maybe not, it hasn't be shown to be so for people in other than high risk (extra-capsular tumor penetration, Gleason 8-9, PSA > 20) categories. One says get hormones now, before the radiation. One says only get them if the radiation fails.
So, for you who have had hormone treatments, how did you find them?
What side effects affected you? Did libido come back after hormone treatment stopped? Did you have mood changes or depression? Did you experience osteoporosis? Breast enlargement? Hot flashes?
Any other thoughts about hormones?
I have to make up my mind by this coming Friday in order to schedule myself for the next open HDR slot.
Thanks.
Alan
c palmer - 29 Oct 2003 01:18 GMT hi alan - you already know the pros and the cons, so i'm not going to tell you something that you may know. yes, the lupron shots have their negative effect. the loss of libido, the softness of the body, the enlarged breasts, the hot flashes and of course, let's not forget the crying spells due to hormone imbalances. but you ask for an opinion and here it is.
knowing what i know about how the HT works and how you can use it with the other treatments as a supplemental, i would put my vote with lupron shot before the HDR treatment. my reasoning is simple. it is a known fact that lupron starves the hormone sensitive cancer for a short period of time. it shrinks back and that is when it is more sensitive to radiation and hence my vote.
i view the lupron shot at this stage of the game, not as a treatment that is used in stage 3 or 4, but as a tool that may gives you a better chance of life in that fact that you got a chance of killing those bad boys. if the cost of a little side effects of the lupron, it's worth it.
and yes, after you are off the lupron, everything comes back to normal as far as libido, etc. as well as can be expected.
hope the information helps.
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Alan Meyer - 29 Oct 2003 16:00 GMT I didn't want to hear that Curtis. I wanted someone to tell me, "Nah, you don't need that, it's just a pain in the a.s and doesn't do any good."
But then I'd also like someone to tell me, "Alan, you really don't have cancer. It was all a mistake. You don't need any treatment at all."
Pulling my head out of the sand, and recognizing that what I don't know sure as hell will kill me, I see that your advice is probably sound, and I thank you for it.
I've been studying everything I can find on PubMed, Cancer.gov, Phoenix5, and other sites and will try to make a decision as soon as I can. Unfortunately, the evidence is not just unclear, it's sometimes downright contradictory.
Regards,
Alan
> hi alan - you already know the pros and the cons, so i'm not going to > tell you something that you may know. yes, the lupron shots have their [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional c palmer - 29 Oct 2003 19:04 GMT hi alan - "nah, you don't need that, it's just a pain in the a.s and doesn't do any good." see, i said, it. now, you can feel better :)
as you have been around here for awhile, you know one thing about me, i'm not going to tell them everything is ok when it is not. at least, i'm being honest.
i would have done you and myself a great disservice if i had not be straight up on this.
and it's like you said, you would have preferred to hear that phrase from me and i would have loved to have said - if it was true.
you will have to get the shot, and then there will be a waiting period for the shot to do its thing, then go in and get your treatment and put those bad guys down. just remember, every day we are dealt a hand of cards and each hand is a winner and each hand is a loser, it's how we play the game.
i still think you can win this hand. i don't see why you can't. if you use all the tools at your deposal.
i think it was said the best, the lack of dignity of it all, isn't so bad, when you consider the alternative. so keep remembering that as you get your hot flashes, your crying spells, and little breasts.
myself, i would look at it differently, look at getting in contact with your feminine side. :)
~ curtis
knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Heather - 29 Oct 2003 04:18 GMT Hi Alan......
I must have missed your decision to have the HDR/EBRT treatment when we were on holiday. Congratulations on your decision. Ron has never regretted having it done this way. We go on Thursday to get his first PSA......the EBRT ended 6 weeks ago. I don't expect a major drop, but will be thrilled if it does.....at 3 months I will expect a lower one.
Where are you having it done? Ron had two HDR's a week apart and then 25 EBRT......and if you have any questions, just email me. I will put my address (coded) at the end.
All the best and Ron will be glad to have a 'partner in crime' on this group, grin. Oh.......and when I asked about HT back in the summer, they said he didn't need it. YMMV.
Heather (heatherfig at rogers dot com)
> I've made all the decisions about my treatment (HDR + EBRT + HDR) except > one - whether to get Lupron hormone injections or not. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Alan Alan Meyer - 29 Oct 2003 15:49 GMT Heather,
You didn't miss my decision. I made it the day I posted the question on hormones. You saw it first right here.
One of the propositions that every single article I've read seems to agree on is that the long term outcomes for radiation are as good as for surgery. I think that, psychologically, that's hard to accept. My own cousin, an oncologist specializing in breast cancer, told me that the long term outcomes are the same, but if he had a tumor he'd want surgery just because, psychologically, he'd want to be rid of it.
For me, the psychological factors are not as strong. I had a knee surgery once that was a disaster and made me very leery of allowing someone to cut me open in order to heal me. So it was easier for me to see past the urge to cut the damned thing out and take the proposition of equal outcomes seriously.
I also see clear evidence that, the higher the radiation dose, the better the long term outcome. So I'm hoping that the relatively new HDR therapy may have an even better long term outcome than more standard RT - which is already very good. My understanding is that the early evidence for HDR is that it's as good as any other radiation therapy. Whether it's better or not is apparently not yet established.
The hormone question is (hopefully) the last real bear for me. The more I research it the more disturbed I get. It seems to have clear benefit for patients with Gleason >= 8, and no demonstrated benefit for patients with Gleason <= 6. I'm a 7, and the evidence is not well established either way. It might be just the thing to tip the balance and save my life, or it might be an unnecessary treatment that hurts the quality of my life now, and over the long term future.
Whatever choice I make, I'll never be able to tell if it was the right one. If I get the hormones and don't die, I won't know if the hormones contributed to my recovery. If I don't get them and the disease comes back, I won't know if hormones would have prevented it.
So, as the man says, you pays your money and takes your choice.
The actual HDR and EBRT will be done at the National Cancer Institute. I work there as a computer programmer and naturally turned to them when I was diagnosed. I'm entering a clinical trial that tests MRI guiding HDR catheter placment instead of the standard ultrasound.
It turns out that treatment at NCI is experimental only. They run clinical trials. They don't do off-the-shelf standard treatment. However, because it's government paid for medical research, it's also completely free! Surprisingly, in spite of their advanced capabilities and free treatment and proximity to Washington DC where there are many uninsured people, they have trouble getting enough patients for their clinical trials. People are afraid they will be laboratory rats.
There is another excellent place where I could be treated under my insurance plan (Greater Baltimore Medical Center), but I've gotten to like the science geeks at NCI and I'm going to try out the role of lab rat for them.
Alan
> Hi Alan...... > [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > > > Alan Heather - 29 Oct 2003 20:05 GMT Neat!! I am not losing my mind after all, grin. I am glad to see what you have written because I felt like a 'voice in the wilderness'.....
Ron was a Gleason 7 (4 +3) and his PSA in June was 10.08....it had been 11.4 in February.
We are part of a study as these two oncologists have been doing this procedure for 2 years and are now collecting data on it. They feel it is better than standard radiation......I have to agree. Attacking the cancer cells from inside the prostate seems much better to me. And he had the lower abdomen radiated as well (I asked about them doing that to cover the lymph nodes.....and they agreed). It wasn't part of the study protocol, so they had to check to see if it could be included.
Another curious question I asked Ron was 'how do you feel about having cancer in your body'??? Didn't worry him a bit coz he said the radiation would get rid of it. He had no great "need or desire" to have the cancer surgically removed......he was adamant on the NO surgery aspect. Each person reacts differently I guess.
I had a breast lump that turned out to be benign. Not sure how I would have reacted had it not been 5 years ago. But they are now using this HDR treatment on breast and lung cancer. So I am sure that I would NOW have what you and Ron are having.....way less invasive.
I saw what my Mum went thru after a mastectomy. Standard operating procedure at the time, but not automatically done now. And her breast lump was 1/10th the size of mine. But I knew in my heart that mine was caused by the Hormone Replacement Therapy and was an estrogen-receptive tumour. It shrunk to 1/4 of the size after the biopsies and going off HRT.
Heather
> Heather, > [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > > > > > > Alan
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