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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / January 2007

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No indication nutrition helps fight cancer

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I.P. Freely - 19 Jul 2006 23:48 GMT
From WebMD at
http://health.webmd.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/eozT0LNg230CBe0omh0E3 :

July 18, 2006 -- Cancer patients spend billions a year on vitamins and
dietary supplements, but there is no proof that these products -- or
other nutrition strategies -- are effective for treating or preventing
the disease, a new analysis shows.

Researchers who reviewed 59 previous studies assessing a wide range of
diet-related approaches found little evidence that specific vitamins,
supplements, or foods had any impact on disease-free survival,
mortality, or cancer recurrence.

The impact of diet on cancer was either disappointing or could not be
determined because most studies conducted to date have been of poor
quality, the researchers concluded.

"There is no evidence that dietary modification by cancer patients
improves survival and benefits disease prognosis," they wrote.

Antibiotics vs. Diet Supplements

The analysis was one of two reports on nutrition and cancer, published
in the July 10 issue of the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.

In an original study from the National Cancer Institute and China's
Peking University, researchers assessed various interventions thought to
prevent stomach cancer or precancerous lesions in Chinese people of
Linqu County in Shandong Province, where stomach cancer causes 42% of
cancer deaths.

The long-time use (around seven years) of either garlic or vitamin E,
vitamin C, and selenium supplements did not result in a reduction in
precancerous lesions or in stomach cancers. But a two-week course of
antibiotics given to kill Helicobacter pylori bacteria in the stomach
was associated with a reduction in precancerous lesions.

H. pylori infection is known to be a major cause of stomach ulcers, and
it is believed to play a critical role in the development of stomach cancer.

Researchers concluded that the H. pylori treatment reduced the
occurrence of precancerous stomach lesions, which could prevent stomach
cancers.

Studies Show No Impact

The analysis of previous nutrition and cancer studies included 25
studies in patients with cancer and 34 studies in patients with
precancerous conditions.

Steven Thomas, MD, PhD, and colleagues from the U.K.'s University of
Bristol concluded that the vast majority of the studies they looked at
were poorly designed or poorly executed.

With this caveat, they reported that none of the interventions studied
appeared to have an impact on cancer one way or the other.

Specifically, vitamin A supplementation did not appear to be beneficial
in studies involving patients with lung, cervical, head and neck, and
skin cancers, and leukemia.

Other studies examined multivitamins use by patients with a variety of
cancers: beta carotene supplementation in patients with skin, stomach,
cervical, mouth, and colorectal cancers; fiber for colorectal cancer;
and green tea for esophageal cancer.

"We did not find any conclusive benefit or harm for any of these
interventions," Thomas tells WebMD.

More Study Needed

But that doesn't mean eating a healthy diet with plenty of fruits and
vegetables is not important for people with cancer or for cancer
survivors, he adds.

"People with cancer are increasingly living longer as medical treatments
improve. We can certainly say that healthy diets are important for
general well-being. But it is more problematic to say that a healthy
diet is beneficial in treating cancer. There is some evidence that this
is the case, but it is not conclusive."

Nutrition and cancer researcher John A. Baron, MD, of Dartmouth Medical
School, tells WebMD that the studies to date have tended to identify
dietary interventions that do not benefit cancer patients.

"We actually do know a lot, but it is mostly about what doesn't work,"
he says. "We now know that antioxidant and fiber supplements are not
protective against colorectal cancer, for example."

In an editorial accompanying the study, Baron wrote that while the
studies examining diet and cancer have tended to be negative, there are
some "hopeful nuggets of progress" in the search for useful diet plans.

He tells WebMD that his own studies strongly suggest that dietary
calcium may help prevent colorectal cancer.

"I do believe that we will have more answers in the near future, but we
do need better studies to give us these answers," he says.

I.P.
MAS - 20 Jul 2006 00:16 GMT
IP,

There is precedence that a low fat diet lowers PSA.

The lower the PSA, the less likely that a recurrence happens.

GD
> From WebMD at http://health.webmd.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/eozT0LNg230CBe0omh0E3 
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> I.P.
I.P. Freely - 20 Jul 2006 02:35 GMT
> IP,
>
> There is precedence that a low fat diet lowers PSA.
>
> The lower the PSA, the less likely that a recurrence happens.

Better run tell the guys who conducted this metastudy.

I.P.
glassman - 20 Jul 2006 06:01 GMT
> IP,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> GD

  Documentation?

Signature

JK Sinrod
www.SinrodStudios.com
www.MyConeyIslandMemories.com

MAS - 22 Jul 2006 05:51 GMT
When I back to see the Medical Oncologist I will ask. When I was in his
office and he was trying to determine why PSA was undetectible. Low fat diet
came up in the conversation. He called another researcher and confirmed that
test show positive results for a decreased PSA.

The research setting is Methodist Research Institute; newly created when
Methodist Hospital became no longer associated with Baylor College of
Medicine.

GD

>> IP,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>   Documentation?
Bob Anthony - 20 Jul 2006 05:26 GMT
Well then, I'm going with some Johnny Walker on ice instead of going to
to the vitamins! Freak it!
You always said that this may be the case (nutrition/supplements mean
little to prevent cancer) and explains much of the frustration that some
of us Dudley Do-rights are experiencing now.
You know, before the PCa surgery I had to go for a angiogram because of
some artifact that they saw on my EKG and then some other artifact that
was on the stress test. All were false positives. (Too bad the Pca
wasn't). The doctor who preformed the angiogram said to keep up whatever
I was doing because my heart was clean with no plaque or blockages of
any kind. Now I know. More Johnny!! ;)

B.A.
I.P. Freely - 20 Jul 2006 06:28 GMT
> You always said that this may be the case (nutrition/supplements mean
> little to prevent cancer)

Well, all I REALLY said was that there's no PROOF they help. This
metastudy simply reinforces it.

> and explains much of the frustration that some
> of us Dudley Do-rights are experiencing now.

I don't feel frustrated . . . much. My nutrition changes two decades
ago, with one or two exceptions, were not aimed at cancer (fortunately,
it seems). What they WERE aimed at, seem to have worked well at, and
still are believed to accomplish is the OTHER benefits, such as
cardiovascular health and its markers, control of my irritable bowel
syndrome (misdiagnosed anyway, I believe), pulmonary health, athletic
ability and endurance, OA mitigation, immune system health (unless you
wanna get picky and count two cancers; otherwise I've had one cold and
one case of flu in my life), and insulin system health (I eat tons of
carbs -- as athletes must -- and my blood sugar and insulin control are
excellent). Several physicians, personal trainers, and recently a pro
sports metabolic analyst have all said my physiology beats that of most
college kids.

I don't regret one lost donut or slab of bacon, and have "worked out"
only for the past few winters and only moderately and sporadically until
last winter (in which I added about 10 pounds, as intended). Besides a
couple of nuisances like wearing pads and having lousy erections, I
still do just about anything I want to do, and one hell of a lot more
than most of the 20-somethings I windsurf with.

As for food, I eat like a king . . . a king with a good nutritionist in
the palace. Almost all I (usually) avoid is sat and trans fats -- which
taste like so much grease to me now anyway -- and white bread in its
many forms.

And from the sounds of it, you are in better shape than I. If we can
just beat this frigging, probably genetic, cancer thing, our vigor and
lives will far outlast those of the general population.

Rejoice . . . if you live that long.

I.P.
Bob Anthony - 20 Jul 2006 14:10 GMT
I hear you. I was just being a bit facetious. I basically eat similarly
like you for most of the reasons that you have stated. I generally feel
better and avoid the extra pounds by doing so too. The weight that I do
want to add is in the form of muscle and results in added strength.
Although I am far from a professional athlete, I too can hold my own (no
pun intended) with some of the younglings. I'm sure you're probably
right too about being predisposed to the maladies that we have. (Just
the Pca misadventure in my case).
I posted this in a previous thread. I have a brother in law that is 5'10
and weighs in at 366 lbs. The guy eats everything and anything. Mostly
crap like cookies and cakes because his wife bakes a lot. She is also
huge, although not quite as large. They had to weigh him at a location
that weighs stones because the doctor's office had a scale that just
goes to 350 lbs. (NO kidding about this). His LDL, HDL, Triglycerides
and his PSA at 64 years of age are all excellent!! He has had two hip
replacements though because of the effect that gravity has on his
joints. He huffs and puffs around like an old locomotive just to get out
of a chair and walk a few feet. I'm sure that his cardio condition
despite his numbers could be much better. But go figure!! I go nuts over
stuff like this!
As once said, live long and prosper, I.P.

B.A.
Joe Price - 20 Jul 2006 06:32 GMT
I've also seen a study that concluded that a "positive attitude" does
nothing to improve cancer survival rates (but it does make one a more
pleasant sick person for others to be around) and I've seen a study
published that concludes that knowing others are praying for you correlates
well with worse outcome - though as I recall, that study involved heart
patients, not cancer patients.

Since it is easy to do, and since the studies were not all well conducted,
I'll stick with a few of the "can't hurt and might help" simple
dietary/supplement modifications - pomegranate juice, Vitamin E (200 mgm)
and Selenium (200 micro gm) but I do think this sort of thing is akin to
peeing on a forest fire.

> From WebMD at http://health.webmd.com/cgi-bin21/DM/y/eozT0LNg230CBe0omh0E3 
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>
> I.P.
Bob Anthony - 20 Jul 2006 14:18 GMT
You'd figure that antioxidants would help prevent cell oxidation, thus
help prevent free radicals, thus help prevent cell damage, and thus help
prevent cancer. Or maybe I have it backwards?

B.A.
Bill - 20 Jul 2006 15:54 GMT
I don't know about this one but in several similar studies they used
dosages that were far below what is generally considered necessary to
fight cancer. E.g. a study that says that the D (probably not the right
type anyway) in a multi-vitamin has no effect does not mean that taking
6000 IUD per day has no effect.

Bill Denton
RP 2/12/02
PSA .93
Memphis
Matti Narkia - 28 Jul 2006 13:00 GMT
>I don't know about this one but in several similar studies they used
>dosages that were far below what is generally considered necessary to
>fight cancer. E.g. a study that says that the D (probably not the right
>type anyway) in a multi-vitamin has no effect does not mean that taking
>6000 IUD per day has no effect.

There is a small pilot study showing that in patients
with PSA relapse after definitive therapy 2000 IU of regular vitamin
D3 daily either stabilized PSA or decreased its rate of rise:

Woo TC, Choo R, Jamieson M, Chander S, Vieth R.
Pilot study: potential role of vitamin D (Cholecalciferol) in patients
with PSA relapse after definitive therapy.
Nutr Cancer. 2005;51(1):32-6.
PMID: 15749627 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=1574962
>
<http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207%2Fs15327914nc5101_5>

   "Abstract: When local treatments for prostate cancer have
   failed, and prostate-specific antigen (PSA) rises in the
   absence of symptoms, there is little consensus as to the best
   management strategy. Calcitriol has been shown to prolong the
   doubling time of PSA in this context, but near-toxic doses are
   required. We investigated the effect of the nutrient vitamin D
   (cholecalciferol), a biochemical precursor of calcitriol, on
   PSA levels and the rate of rise of PSA in these patients.
   Fifteen patients were given 2,000 IU (50 µg) of cholecalciferol
   daily and monitored prospectively every 2-3 mo. In 9 patients,
   PSA levels decreased or remained unchanged after the
   commencement of cholecalciferol. This was sustained for as long
   as 21 mo. Also, there was a statistically significant decrease
   in the rate of PSA rise after administration of cholecalciferol
   (P = 0.005) compared with that before cholecalciferol. The
   median PSA doubling time increased from 14.3 mo prior to
   commencing cholecalciferol to 25 mo after commencing
   cholecalciferol. Fourteen of 15 patients had a prolongation of
   PSA doubling time after commencing cholecalciferol. There were
   no side effects reported by any patient. Further study is
   needed to confirm this finding and to explore the potential
   therapeutic benefit of nutrient vitamin D in prostate cancer."

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 28 Jul 2006 15:08 GMT
>>I don't know about this one but in several similar studies they used
>>dosages that were far below what is generally considered necessary to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=1574962
>
><http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207%2Fs15327914nc5101_5>

In another thread today I mentioned that too large quantities of some
dietary fatty acids such as omega-6 arachidonic acid (AA) and omega-3
alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) could be harmful for prostate cancer
patients.

Dr. Charles Myers is a prominent prostate cancer researcher and a
prostate cancer patient, diagnosed 1998. Based on his research and on
his personal experience he strongly believes that the diet can make
difference in prostate cancer. His dietary recommendations can be seen
on the web pages

DR. CHARLES MYERS visits Sydney
<http://www.prostate.org.au/myers.htm>

Prostate Forum
<http://www.prostateforum.com/>

and

Eating Your Way to Better Health-The Prostate Forum Nutrition Guide
by Charles E. (Snuffy) Myers, Jr., M.D. Sara Sgarlat Steck, R.T. and
Rose Sgarlat Myers, PT., Ph.D.
<http://www.prostateforum.com/nutrition.htm>

Other potentially useful links about prostate cancer and nutrition:

Nutrition and Lifestyle - Prostate Cancer Foundation
<http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org/site/c.itIWK2OSG/b.47431/k.8A27/Nutritio
n_and_Lifestyle.htm
>

Changing Your Dietary Habits to help fight prostate cancer - Prostate
Cancer Foundation
<http://www.prostatecancerfoundation.org/site/pp.asp?c=itIWK2OSG&b=68240>

Nutrition and Prostate Cancer (Prostate Cancer Foundation) - Large PDF
file
<http://www.nlm.nih.gov/cgi/medlineplus/leavemedplus.pl?theURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2
Eprostatecancerfoundation%2Eorg%2Fatf%2Fcf%2F%7B705B3273%2DF2EF%2D4EF6%2DA653%2D
E15C5D8BB6B1%7D%2FNutrition%5FGuide%2Epdf
>

Chan JM, Gann PH, Giovannucci EL.
Role of diet in prostate cancer development and progression.
J Clin Oncol. 2005 Nov 10;23(32):8152-60. Review.
PMID: 16278466 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.jco.org/cgi/content/abstract/23/32/8152>

Miano L.
[Mediterranean diet, micronutrients and prostate carcinoma: a
rationale approach to primary prevention of prostate cancer]
Arch Ital Urol Androl. 2003 Sep;75(3):166-78. Review. Italian.
PMID: 14661397 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=14661397
>

Trichopoulou A, Lagiou P, Kuper H, Trichopoulos D.
Cancer and Mediterranean dietary traditions.
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2000 Sep;9(9):869-73. Review.
PMID: 11008902 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/9/9/869>

My very brief summary about these sites and some other evidence;

- Reduce or eliminate the consumption of red meat (contains
 arachidonic acid and saturated fat).

- Reduce or eliminate high-fat, farm-raised fish, because they contain
 too much saturated fat and arachidonic acid. Eat wild fish and
 seafood instead.

- Eat plenty of vegetables including among others beans, peas,
 lentils, broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables. Include also
 plants or plant based products, which are known act as inhibitors to
 5-lipoxygenase enzyme, such as Boswellia serrata a.k.a.frankincense
 (Boswellic acid)cocoa, GLA (from evening primrose oil for example;
 GLA could cause accumulation of AA in serum, so it should always be
 taken with EPA or fish oil which prevents this), quercetin, dried or
 semi-dried qinger powder, curcumin, propolis, milk thistle extract
 silymarin and its ingredient silibinin (silybin), resveratrol (from
 red wine), garlic, onions and saw palmetto berry extracts

- Eat fruit and berries.

- Consider soy foods.

- Reduce dairy products

- Avoid eggs (contain arachidonic acid)

- Use only olive oil, eliminate all other oils and oil based products.

- Use garlic, spices and flavoring rather than cooking oils whenever
 possible.

- Use tomatoes and tomato based products (contain lycopene).

- Drink pomegranate juice daily.

- Drink green or white tea daily.

- Make sure you get enough selenium, vitamin E and vitamin D (at least
 2000 IU of vitamin D3/d). Take supplements, if necessary.

- Limit your alcohol use to 1-2 glasses of red wine daily (_low_
 consumption of red wine may be beneficial due to its ingredient
 resveratrol)

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 31 Jul 2006 17:26 GMT
::: I don't know about this one but in several similar studies they used
::: dosages that were far below what is generally considered necessary
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
:  consumption of red wine may be beneficial due to its ingredient
:  resveratrol)

What do you think is the difference between foods that prevent prostate
cancer compared to foods that are helpful in the treatment of prostate
cancer?

Signature

Juhana

Matti Narkia - 31 Jul 2006 19:03 GMT
>::: I don't know about this one but in several similar studies they used
>::: dosages that were far below what is generally considered necessary
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>cancer compared to foods that are helpful in the treatment of prostate
>cancer?

I think we can only speculate about that. My opinion currently is that
mostly same foods and nutrients could be used, except that in the
treatment I would probably use wider wariety of them to get better
synergy advantages, and larger doses, when the effect is expected to
increase with dose. That could become expensive, so I wouldn't spend
that much in prevention, at least if I don't have a high risk. In the
treatment you also have to be stricter, because you already had/have
cancer, whose growth could accelerate rapidly, if you take too much of
wrong kind of food. One example is for example ALA. If I don't have
prostate cancer and I'm not in a high risk group, perhaps I could use
canola/rapeseed oil, at least occasionally, but if I already had
prostate cancer, I wouldn't, bexause about 10% of it is ALA. Another
example is Boswella serrata as supplement. It's perhaps the best or at
least one of the best herbal 5-lipoxygenase inhibitors, but it could
have side effects, for example suppression of immune system, so I
wouldn't use it as prevention.

Signature

Matti Narkia

soares.glaucio@gmail.com - 15 Aug 2006 01:22 GMT
Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know about
the fatty acid content of fish in South Atlantic warmer waters?   Are
there comparison tables?

thanks

> >>I don't know about this one but in several similar studies they used
> >>dosages that were far below what is generally considered necessary to
[quoted text clipped - 115 lines]
>   consumption of red wine may be beneficial due to its ingredient
>   resveratrol)
Matti Narkia - 15 Aug 2006 12:43 GMT
>Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
>species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know about
>the fatty acid content of fish in South Atlantic warmer waters?   Are
>there comparison tables?

Warm water fish have less omega-3 fatty acids than cold water fish,
but I have not been able to find any online source about their exact
omega-3 content. If you think that you cannot get enough omega-3s from
local fish, you could always use fish oil supplements or canned fish
or both.

Signature

Matti Narkia

I.P. Freely - 15 Aug 2006 12:50 GMT
>> Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
>> species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know about
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> local fish, you could always use fish oil supplements or canned fish
> or both.

And nuts, esp walnuts. Great on cereal and salads.

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 15 Aug 2006 13:38 GMT
>> Warm water fish have less omega-3 fatty acids than cold water fish,
>> but I have not been able to find any online source about their exact
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
> And nuts, esp walnuts. Great on cereal and salads.

But, rough on diverticula.
I.P. Freely - 15 Aug 2006 14:38 GMT
>>> Warm water fish have less omega-3 fatty acids than cold water fish,
>>> but I have not been able to find any online source about their exact
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> But, rough on diverticula.

Yep.

OTOH, a doc diagnosed me with diverticulosis >20 years ago, and told me
never to eat any more nuts or seeds, especially strawberries. Since then
I've eaten more than 10 million strawberry seeds, well over a thousand
jars of extra crunchy peanut butter, buckets of pumpkin and sunflower
seeds, and over a quarter ton of walnuts, w/o one problem.

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 15 Aug 2006 19:58 GMT
>>>> Warm water fish have less omega-3 fatty acids than cold water fish,
>>>> but I have not been able to find any online source about their exact
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> jars of extra crunchy peanut butter, buckets of pumpkin and sunflower
> seeds, and over a quarter ton of walnuts, w/o one problem.

I got a good doctor.  He only restricts me to peanuts and larger nuts and
popcorn.
Matti Narkia - 15 Aug 2006 14:00 GMT
>>> Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
>>> species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know about
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>And nuts, esp walnuts. Great on cereal and salads.

Although walnuts are excellent food and good for the heart, I'm a bit
hesitant to recommend them to prostate cancer patients, because
omega-3 in them is alpha-linolenic acid, which has been associated
with an increased risk of prostate cancer in several, but not all, of
those epidemiological studies, where associations of dietary fats with
prostate cancer have been investigated.

Signature

Matti Narkia

I.P. Freely - 15 Aug 2006 14:48 GMT
> Although walnuts are excellent food and good for the heart, I'm a bit
> hesitant to recommend them to prostate cancer patients, because
> omega-3 in them is alpha-linolenic acid, which has been associated
> with an increased risk of prostate cancer in several, but not all, of
> those epidemiological studies, where associations of dietary fats with
> prostate cancer have been investigated.

Would you say the walnut/alpha-linoleic/PC connection is sound enough
that we PC pts should reduce or eliminate nuts for that reason, or is
the link merely suspicious enough that walnuts are not encouraged?

I get so discouraged about every new finding that says we must reduce or
eliminate just about everything from our diets that I almost -- JUST
JOKING -- want to just start eating ribs and Haagen Daaz for every meal.

I.P.
Matti Narkia - 15 Aug 2006 14:58 GMT
>> Although walnuts are excellent food and good for the heart, I'm a bit
>> hesitant to recommend them to prostate cancer patients, because
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>that we PC pts should reduce or eliminate nuts for that reason, or is
>the link merely suspicious enough that walnuts are not encouraged?

The link is only statistical, so causality has no been proved. But
until more is known about alpha-linolenic acid/PCa conncetion, perhaps
high consumption of walnuts should not be encouraged for PCa patients.
Other nuts are probably OK, because they contain less or no
alpha-linoleic acid.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 15 Aug 2006 15:13 GMT
>>> Although walnuts are excellent food and good for the heart, I'm a bit
>>> hesitant to recommend them to prostate cancer patients, because
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Other nuts are probably OK, because they contain less or no
>alpha-linoleic acid.
alpha-linoleNic

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 15 Aug 2006 21:46 GMT
:::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
:::: species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
: those epidemiological studies, where associations of dietary fats with
: prostate cancer have been investigated.

Walnuts are also very high in myricetin, a flavonoid which is associated
with reduced prostate cancer insidence, and gamma-tocopherol, an isomer of
vitamin E, which is also associated with reduced prostate cancer probably
due to its antiinflammatory effects.

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 15 Aug 2006 23:11 GMT
>:::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
>:::: species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>vitamin E, which is also associated with reduced prostate cancer probably
>due to its antiinflammatory effects.

Remember that you are talking to cancer patients. Do you have cancer?
We are not talking casually about prevention here, but about people,
whose lifes could be endangered by careless advice. Do you want them
to gamble on that flavonoids and gamma-tocopherol in walnuts would
possiböy offset the the potential harmful effect of ALA? Flavonoids
can be obtained from other vegetables and one can get more
gamma-tocopherol from supplements tahn from walnuts without taking any
ALA at all.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 15 Aug 2006 23:43 GMT
>>:::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
>>:::: species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>gamma-tocopherol from supplements tahn from walnuts without taking any
>ALA at all.

The article

DR. CHARLES MYERS visits Sydney
Prostate Cancer Foundation of Australia
<http://www.prostate.org.au/myers.htm>

cites prominent prostate cancer researcher and prostate cancer patient
Dr. Charles Myers as follows:

   "Dr Myers believes there is evidence linking alpha linolenic acid
   (the omega 3 fatty acid in flax seed oil) with increased
   metastatic prostate cancer. Laboratory tests have shown when this
   substance is placed in contact with live prostate cancer cells,
   the rate of growth of the cancer cells increases by up to three
   hundred percent. A similar result was obtained in a test of 15,000
   doctors reported in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute
   in 1994."

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 16 Aug 2006 06:10 GMT
:::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
:::::: species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
: possiböy offset the the potential harmful effect of ALA? Flavonoids
: can be obtained from other vegetables

I understand your point but is there any higher source of myricetin in any
other food source? I think the answer is no. Walnuts are an exceptionally
high source. It is quite possible that the high myricetin intake would
offset the effect of ALA. This is just speculation, though.

Also, I am not giving any direct advice here but rather I am discussing
about the issue hoping that an intelligent conclusion could be found.

: and one can get more
: gamma-tocopherol from supplements tahn from walnuts without taking any
: ALA at all.

As you yourself have written elsewhere the adverse effects of higher ALA are
probably caused by heating of oils. Heating in turn causes oxidation of ALA
and these rancid oils are a possible reason why higher ALA is harmful to
prostate.

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 16 Aug 2006 13:17 GMT
>:::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it studies
>:::::: species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What do we know
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>high source. It is quite possible that the high myricetin intake would
>offset the effect of ALA. This is just speculation, though.

Has myricetin any documented effect on established prostate cancer? I
doubt it, and I certainly wouldn't risk taking ALA with it just
because of your speculations about myricetin.

>Also, I am not giving any direct advice here but rather I am discussing
>about the issue hoping that an intelligent conclusion could be found.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>and these rancid oils are a possible reason why higher ALA is harmful to
>prostate.

That was just my speculation and many disagree with me, apparently
also Dr. Myers.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 16 Aug 2006 13:58 GMT
:::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
:::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
: doubt it, and I certainly wouldn't risk taking ALA with it just
: because of your speculations about myricetin.

Here is one /in vitro/ study:

Nutr Cancer. 2000;38(1):116-22.
Flavonoids suppress androgen-independent human prostate tumor proliferation.
Knowles LM, Zigrossi DA, Tauber RA, Hightower C, Milner JA.
Graduate Program in Nutrition, Nutrition Department, Pennsylvania State
University, University Park, PA 16802, USA.

The present studies compared the effects of selected bioflavonoids on the
proliferation of androgen-independent human prostatic tumor cells (PC-3).
Complete growth retardation was observed in PC-3 cells treated with 100
microM quercetin, kaempferol, and luteolin, while isomolar genistein,
apigenin, and myricetin suppressed PC-3 proliferation by 73%, 70%, and 59%,
respectively (p < 0.05). Naringenin and rutin were not as effective and
inhibited growth by < 25%. Exposure to increasing concentrations of
quercetin and kaempferol led to a dose-dependent decrease in proliferation.
Refeeding kaempferol-treated cells (50 microM) complete medium without the
flavonoid resulted in a return toward control growth rates. Similar growth
recovery was not observed in quercetin-treated cells. The antiproliferative
response of PC-3 cells to quercetin and kaempferol was additive when
supplemented to the medium at 25 microM. A block in G2-to-M phase
progression was observed after the addition of 25 microM kaempferol. When
quercetin reached 100 microM, an increase in the proportion of cells in the
S phase became apparent within 24 hours. Apoptosis was not evident, even
when concentrations of quercetin or kaempferol were raised to 100 microM.
The present studies suggest that alterations in cell cycle progression
contribute significantly to the antiproliferative effects of quercetin and
kaempferol in PC-3 cells. PMID: 11341036

http://tinyurl.com/gq6wj

:: Also, I am not giving any direct advice here but rather I am
:: discussing about the issue hoping that an intelligent conclusion
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
: That was just my speculation and many disagree with me, apparently
: also Dr. Myers.

It is OK to change mind.

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 16 Aug 2006 21:24 GMT
>:::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
>:::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>Graduate Program in Nutrition, Nutrition Department, Pennsylvania State
>University, University Park, PA 16802, USA.

Which shows that quercetin was far more effective in preventing
proliferation of prostate cancer cells in vitro than myricetin.
If you want a flavonoid take quercetin. ALA increases growth rate much
more than myricetin slows it down, so _very_ theoretically and
speculatively, the net result of taking walnuts could be increased
proliferation.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 16 Aug 2006 22:58 GMT
>>:::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
>>:::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.  What
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>speculatively, the net result of taking walnuts could be increased
>proliferation.

Quercetin is in many ways good for the prostate: it may be used to
prevent and experimentally treat prostate cancer, it may help in
prostatitis, and when used together with finasteride, it may reduce
prostate weight in BPH. It is also COX-2 and 5-lipoxygenase inhibitor,
which is helpful in prostate cancer prevention and treatment:

Quercetin links:

Mayo Clinic: Quercetin Prevents Prostate Cancer
<http://www.youngagain2000.com/mayclinquerm.html>

Quercetin May Be Used in Treating Prostate Cancer - Brief Article
Prepared Foods - Find Articles
<http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3289/is_9_170/ai_78576217>

Prostatitis Website -- Quercetin Page
<http://www.prostatitis.org/quercetin.html>

Quercetin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercetin>

Medline references about quercetin:

Vijayababu MR, Arunkumar A, Kanagaraj P, Venkataraman P,
Krishnamoorthy G, Arunakaran J.
Quercetin downregulates matrix metalloproteinases 2 and 9 proteins
expression in prostate cancer cells (PC-3).
Mol Cell Biochem. 2006 Jul;287(1-2):109-16. Epub 2006 Apr 28.
PMID: 16645725 [PubMed - in process]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16645725
>

   "... Conclusion: Hence, we speculated that inhibition of
   metastasis-specific MMPs in cancer cells may be one of the
   targets for anticancer function of quercetin, and thus provides
   the molecular basis for the development of quercetin as a novel
   chemopreventive agent for metastatic prostate cancer."

Vijayababu MR, Arunkumar A, Kanagaraj P, Arunakaran J.
Effects of quercetin on insulin-like growth factors (IGFs) and their
binding protein-3 (IGFBP-3) secretion and induction of apoptosis in
human prostate cancer cells.
J Carcinog. 2006 Apr 6;5:10.
PMID: 16600019 [PubMed - in process]
<http://www.carcinogenesis.com/content/5/1/10>

Al-Fayez M, Cai H, Tunstall R, Steward WP, Gescher AJ.
Differential modulation of cyclooxygenase-mediated prostaglandin
production by the putative cancer chemopreventive flavonoids tricin,
apigenin and quercetin.
Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 2006 Mar 22; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 16552572 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16552572
>

Vijayababu MR, Kanagaraj P, Arunkumar A, Ilangovan R, Dharmarajan A,
Arunakaran J.
Quercetin induces p53-independent apoptosis in human prostate cancer
cells by modulating Bcl-2-related proteins: a possible mediation by
IGFBP-3.
Oncol Res. 2006;16(2):67-74.
PMID: 16898267 [PubMed - in process]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16898267
>

Vijayababu MR, Kanagaraj P, Arunkumar A, Ilangovan R, Aruldhas MM,
Arunakaran J.
Quercetin-induced growth inhibition and cell death in prostatic
carcinoma cells (PC-3) are associated with increase in p21 and
hypophosphorylated retinoblastoma proteins expression.
J Cancer Res Clin Oncol. 2005 Nov;131(11):765-71. Epub 2005 Nov 1.
PMID: 16049707 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=16049707
>

   "... From this study, it was concluded that quercetin inhibits
   prostate cancer cell proliferation by altering the expression of
   cell cycle regulators and apoptotic proteins."

O'Leary KA, de Pascual-Tereasa S, Needs PW, Bao YP, O'Brien NM,
Williamson G.
Effect of flavonoids and vitamin E on cyclooxygenase-2 (COX-2)
transcription.
Mutat Res. 2004 Jul 13;551(1-2):245-54.
PMID: 15225597 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=15225597
>

   "... However, the tocopherols inhibited COX-2 activity showing
   that the tocopherols act post-transcriptionally on activity,
   whereas quercetin and some quercetin conjugates affect both the
   transcription and activity of COX-2. Flavonoid modulation of COX-2
   transcription may therefore be an important mechanism in
   anti-carcinogenesis."

Ma Z, Hung Nguyen T, Hoa Huynh T, Tien Do P, Huynh H.
Reduction of rat prostate weight by combined quercetin-finasteride
treatment is associated with cell cycle deregulation.
J Endocrinol. 2004 Jun;181(3):493-507.
PMID: 15171697 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=15171697
>
<http://joe.endocrinology-journals.org/cgi/reprint/181/3/493> (full
text PDF)

   "... The results suggest that quercetin synergizes with
   finasteride to reduce the wet prostate weight through a cell
   cycle-related pathway, which may be androgen independent."

Ma ZS, Huynh TH, Ng CP, Do PT, Nguyen TH, Huynh H.
Reduction of CWR22 prostate tumor xenograft growth by combined
tamoxifen-quercetin treatment is associated with inhibition of
angiogenesis and
cellular proliferation.
Int J Oncol. 2004 May;24(5):1297-304.
PMID: 15067354 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=15067354
>

   "... These findings indicate that tamoxifen inhibits CWR22
   prostate tumor by modulating the angiogenesis and its
   antineoplastic effects can be potentiated by combined use with
   quercetin."

de Pascual-Teresa S, Johnston KL, DuPont MS, O'Leary KA, Needs PW,
Morgan LM, Clifford MN, Bao Y, Williamson G.
Quercetin metabolites downregulate cyclooxygenase-2 transcription in
human lymphocytes ex vivo but not in vivo.
J Nutr. 2004 Mar;134(3):552-7.
PMID: 14988445 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/3/552>

Nair HK, Rao KV, Aalinkeel R, Mahajan S, Chawda R, Schwartz SA.
Inhibition of prostate cancer cell colony formation by the flavonoid
quercetin correlates with modulation of specific regulatory genes.
Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2004 Jan;11(1):63-9.
PMID: 14715546 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://cvi.asm.org/cgi/content/full/11/1/63?view=long&pmid=14715546>

   "... The results of these studies provide a scientific basis for
   the potential use of flavonoids as nutraceuticals in the
   chemoprevention of cancer."

Shenouda NS, Zhou C, Browning JD, Ansell PJ, Sakla MS, Lubahn DB,
Macdonald RS.
Phytoestrogens in common herbs regulate prostate cancer cell growth in
vitro.
Nutr Cancer. 2004;49(2):200-8.
PMID: 15489213 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.leaonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207%2Fs15327914nc4902_12>

Banerjee T, Van der Vliet A, Ziboh VA.
Downregulation of COX-2 and iNOS by amentoflavone and quercetin in
A549 human lung adenocarcinoma cell line.
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2002 May-Jun;66(5-6):485-92.
PMID: 12144868 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=12144868
>

   "... Taken together, our data indicated that amentoflavone and
   quercetin differentially exerted supression of PGE(2) biosynthesis
   via downregulation of COX-2/iNOS expression."

Kobayashi T, Nakata T, Kuzumaki T.
Effect of flavonoids on cell cycle progression in prostate cancer
cells.
Cancer Lett. 2002 Feb 8;176(1):17-23.
PMID: 11790449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11790449
>

Lin SY, Tsai SJ, Wang LH, Wu MF, Lee H.
Protection by quercetin against cooking oil fumes-induced DNA damage
in human lung adenocarcinoma CL-3 cells: role of COX-2.
Nutr Cancer. 2002;44(1):95-101.
PMID: 12672646 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=12672646
>

   "... Our data showed that COX-2 mRNA and protein levels were
   significantly repressed by addition of quercetin in a dose-
   dependent manner. Gel retardation assay showed that nuclear
   factor-kappaB DNA binding activity induced by COF was
   significantly inhibited by quercetin. From our previous and
   present studies, it is revealed that coexpression of COX-2 and
   cytochrome P-450 1A1 caused by COF may contribute to genomic
   instability in lung cancer development. Thus quercetin may act
   as a potent chemopreventive agent of lung cancer for nonsmoking
   Taiwanese women."

Nakanoma T, Ueno M, Iida M, Hirata R, Deguchi N.
Effects of quercetin on the heat-induced cytotoxicity of prostate
cancer cells.
Int J Urol. 2001 Nov;8(11):623-30.
PMID: 11903689 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11903689
>

   "... CONCLUSION: These results suggest that quercetin may enhance
   heat-induced cytotoxicity in prostate cancer cell lines through
   the inhibition of hsp70 production."

Asea A, Ara G, Teicher BA, Stevenson MA, Calderwood SK.
Effects of the flavonoid drug quercetin on the response of human
prostate
tumours to hyperthermia in vitro and in vivo.
Int J Hyperthermia. 2001 Jul-Aug;17(4):347-56.
PMID: 11471985 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11471985
>

   "... These experiments, thus, suggest the use of Quercetin as a
   hyperthermia sensitizer in the treatment of prostate carcinoma."

Xing N, Chen Y, Mitchell SH, Young CY.
Quercetin inhibits the expression and function of the androgen
receptor in
LNCaP prostate cancer cells.
Carcinogenesis. 2001 Mar;22(3):409-14.
PMID: 11238180 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/3/409>

   "... Our result suggests that quercetin can attenuate the function
   of AR by repressing its expression and has the potential to become
   a chemopreventive and/or chemotherapeutic agent for prostate
   cancer."

Raso GM, Meli R, Di Carlo G, Pacilio M, Di Carlo R.
Inhibition of inducible nitric oxide synthase and cyclooxygenase-2
expression by flavonoids in macrophage J774A.1.
Life Sci. 2001 Jan 12;68(8):921-31.
PMID: 11213362 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11213362
>

   "... Quercetin, galangin, apigenin, and naringenin markedly
   decreased PGE2 release and COX-2 expression in a concentration-
   dependent manner. This study suggests that inhibition of iNOS
   and COX-2 expression by flavonoids may be one of the mechanisms
   responsible for their anti-inflammatory effects."

Kampa M, Hatzoglou A, Notas G, Damianaki A, Bakogeorgou E, Gemetzi C,
Kouroumalis E, Martin PM, Castanas E.
Wine antioxidant polyphenols inhibit the proliferation of human
prostate cancer cell lines.
Nutr Cancer. 2000;37(2):223-33.
PMID: 11142097 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11142097
>

   "... The proliferation of LNCaP and PC3 cells was
   preferentially inhibited by flavonoids (catechin, epicatechin,
   and quercetin), whereas resveratrol was the most potent
   inhibitor of DU145 cell growth. ..."

Kolchin IuN, Popovich LF, Grabovskii LA, Luik AI, Moibenko AA.
[The effect of the 5-lipoxygenase inhibitor quercetin on the
functional and morphologic manifestations of myocardial lesions in
ischemia and reperfusion of the heart]
Kardiologiia. 1990 Mar;30(3):72-5. Russian.
PMID: 2381127 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=2381127
>

Signature

Matti Narkia

Jon Bilec - 11 Jan 2007 18:41 GMT
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I.P. Freely - 11 Jan 2007 22:48 GMT
Wayne - 19 Jan 2007 20:24 GMT
Is it also good for coughs ,colds and dirty holes?
Juhana Harju - 17 Aug 2006 06:35 GMT
:::::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
:::::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
: proliferation of prostate cancer cells in vitro than myricetin.
: If you want a flavonoid take quercetin.

I don' t deny that, but that is another issue. We were talking about walnuts
and ALA here.

: ALA increases growth rate much
: more than myricetin slows it down, so _very_ theoretically and
: speculatively, the net result of taking walnuts could be increased
: proliferation.

There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the high
gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a beneficial effect.
(And yes, it is possible to take gamma-tocopherol as a supplement but that
is another issue again.)

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Juhana Harju - 17 Aug 2006 07:16 GMT
::::::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
::::::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
: effect. (And yes, it is possible to take gamma-tocopherol as a
: supplement but that is another issue again.)

http://www.purdue.edu/UNS/html4ever/2004/041214.Jiang.vitamine.html

Abstract:
http://tinyurl.com/qshq2

Full study:
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/51/17825

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 10:21 GMT
>::::::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
>::::::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
>Full study:
>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/101/51/17825

Absolutely irrelevant to walnuts. You can get more gamma-tocopherol
for example from pistachios than from english walnuts and pistachios
have _much_ less ALA. You can also get gamma-tocopherol from
supplements.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 17 Aug 2006 11:01 GMT
::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the high
::: gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a beneficial
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
: for example from pistachios than from english walnuts and pistachios
: have _much_ less ALA.

By consuming them you don't get myricetin.

: You can also get gamma-tocopherol from
: supplements.

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 11:42 GMT
>::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the high
>::: gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a beneficial
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>By consuming them you don't get myricetin.

Are you sure? Do you have any evidence about that? Myricetin is not  a
rare flavonoid. It's found for example in berries, fruits, vegetables,
herbs and red wine. The best source is probably southern bayberry
(Myrica cerifera). Myricetin is also available as supplements.

About the myricetin content in berries, see for example

Hakkinen SH, Karenlampi SO, Heinonen IM, Mykkanen HM, Torronen AR.
Content of the flavonols quercetin, myricetin, and kaempferol in 25
edible berries.
J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2274-9.
PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

But even if there is no myricetin in pistachios, as is your
unsupported claim, their ALA content is so much lower than walnuts'
that the net result is for the benefit of pistachios even if don't
consider the fact that the have more

And as mentioned, there are better flavonoids for PCa than myricetin,
quercetin for example. Quercetin is found in many foods, onions are
one of the best sources. Red wine has some quercetin as well. Also
quercetin is available as supplements.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 11:57 GMT
>::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the high
>::: gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a beneficial
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>By consuming them you don't get myricetin.

Are you sure? Do you have any evidence about that? Myricetin is not  a
rare flavonoid. It's found for example in berries, fruits, vegetables,
herbs and red wine. The best source is probably southern bayberry
(Myrica cerifera). Myricetin is also available as supplements.

About the myricetin content in berries, see for example

Hakkinen SH, Karenlampi SO, Heinonen IM, Mykkanen HM, Torronen AR.
Content of the flavonols quercetin, myricetin, and kaempferol in 25
edible berries.
J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2274-9.
PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

But even if there is no myricetin in pistachios, as is your
unsupported claim, their ALA content is so much lower than walnuts'
that the net result is for the benefit of pistachios, even if don't
consider the fact that they have more gamma-tocopherol than walnuts.

And as mentioned, there are better flavonoids for PCa than myricetin,
quercetin for example. Quercetin is found in many foods, onions are
one of the best sources. Red wine has some quercetin as well. Also
quercetin is available as supplements.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 14:16 GMT
>>::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the high
>>::: gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a beneficial
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
><http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

Ginkgo biloba also has both myricetin and quercetin.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 17 Aug 2006 14:51 GMT
::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the
::::: high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
: J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2274-9.
: PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

: But even if there is no myricetin in pistachios, as is your
: unsupported claim, their ALA content is so much lower than walnuts'
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
: one of the best sources. Red wine has some quercetin as well. Also
: quercetin is available as supplements.

If you look at this Finnish study by Knekt P et al, you can see that no
other flavonoid is as clearly associated with reduced prostate cancer risk
than myricetin, RR 0.43 (0.22, 0.86), /P/ for trend 0.002. While this is an
epidemiological observation only the result is statistically very
significant.

The abstract:
http://tinyurl.com/zrs7j

The full study:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/76/3/560

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 15:46 GMT
>::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the
>::::: high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>The full study:
>http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/76/3/560

Ok, in this study. Other studies, among them your lab study, have
shown greater benefit for quercetin. And if you read the above study,
you'll see that myricetin in it was derived from berries. You don't
need walnuts to get myricetin.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 18 Aug 2006 01:44 GMT
>>::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the
>>::::: high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>>The full study:
>>http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/76/3/560

The above link is for PDF file. The full study is available also in
HTML format:

<http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/76/3/560>

>Ok, in this study. Other studies, among them your lab study, have
>shown greater benefit for quercetin. And if you read the above study,
>you'll see that myricetin in it was derived from berries. You don't
>need walnuts to get myricetin.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 18 Aug 2006 02:04 GMT
:::::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the
:::::::: high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
:::: J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2274-9.
:::: PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

:::: But even if there is no myricetin in pistachios, as is your
:::: unsupported claim, their ALA content is so much lower than walnuts'
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
:: you'll see that myricetin in it was derived from berries. You don't
:: need walnuts to get myricetin.

While the issue about walnuts remains unclear, we can probably agree that
consumption of myricetin containing berries, like strawberries and
blueberries, is beneficial in prostate cancer. I noticed that there is
myricetin in rutabaga (Swedish turnip), too.

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Juhana Harju - 18 Aug 2006 02:25 GMT
::::::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like
::::::::: the high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
::::: J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2274-9.
::::: PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

::::: But even if there is no myricetin in pistachios, as is your
::::: unsupported claim, their ALA content is so much lower than
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
: and blueberries, is beneficial in prostate cancer. I noticed that
: there is myricetin in rutabaga (Swedish turnip), too.

The myricetin content of some foods can be found in this file. Please note
the exceptionally high content of myricetin in walnuts.

The role of antioxidant phytonutrients in the prevention of
diseases.
Andrea Lugasi, Judit Hóvári, Katalin V. Sági, Lajos Bíró
Volume 47(1-4):119-125, 2003
Acta Biologica Szegediensis

The full study as a pdf-file:
http://www.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/2003/ActaHP/47119.pdf

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 18 Aug 2006 02:52 GMT
>::::::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like
>::::::::: the high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of
[quoted text clipped - 72 lines]
>The myricetin content of some foods can be found in this file. Please note
>the exceptionally high content of myricetin in walnuts.

We don't know, however, whether very high myricetin intake is
converted to correspondingly greater benefit in prostate cancer. In
the earlier cited study

Knowles LM, Zigrossi DA, Tauber RA, Hightower C, Milner JA.
Flavonoids suppress androgen-independent human prostate tumor
proliferation.
Nutr Cancer. 2000;38(1):116-22.
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11341036
>

only quercetin and kaempferol are mentioned causing a dose-dependent
decrease in proliferation of PCa cells.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 18 Aug 2006 02:35 GMT
>:::::::: There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the
>:::::::: high gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>blueberries, is beneficial in prostate cancer. I noticed that there is
>myricetin in rutabaga (Swedish turnip), too.

Myricetin intake in Knekt et al. was  0.1 ± 0.2 mg/d. On this
backround red wine is probably also a good source of myricetin, if you
choose your wine wisely:

Vuorinen H, Maatta K, Torronen R.
Content of the flavonols myricetin, quercetin, and kaempferol in
finnish berry wines.
J Agric Food Chem. 2000 Jul;48(7):2675-80.
PMID: 11032478 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11032478
>

   "The amount of myricetin ranged from 3.8 to 22.6 mg L(-1) in red
    berry wines and from 0 to 14.6 mg L(-1) in red grape wines."

And wise choices are for example Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon wines:

McDonald MS, Hughes M, Burns J, Lean ME, Matthews D, Crozier A.
Survey of the Free and Conjugated Myricetin and Quercetin Content of
Red Wines of Different Geographical Origins.
J Agric Food Chem. 1998 Feb 16;46(2):368-375.
PMID: 10554248 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=10554248
>

   "... High total flavonol levels appear to be associated with
   the use of thick-skinned grape varieties, such as Cabernet
   Sauvignon, with a high skin:volume ratio, which were left to
   ripen fully in sunny conditions before harvest and which were
   extracted efficiently by modern methods of vinification. Some
   Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon wines contained up to 40 mg of total
   flavonols L(-1), which was higher than the levels detected in
   Cabernet Sauvignon from France, California, and Australia. The
   flavonol content of 1989 and 1990 Cabernet Sauvignon from
   Bulgaria was <6 mg L(-1). Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot,
   and Pinot Noir all contained consistently higher concentrations
   of flavonols than their counterparts from different
   geographical regions."

Some of the berries with high myricetin contents are cranberry, black
currant, crowberry, bog whortleberry, blueberries, and bilberry:

Hakkinen SH, Karenlampi SO, Heinonen IM, Mykkanen HM, Torronen AR.
Content of the flavonols quercetin, myricetin, and kaempferol in 25
edible berries.
J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Jun;47(6):2274-9.
PMID: 10794622 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=R
etrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10794622
>

   "... Amounts between 14 and 142 mg/kg of myricetin were detected
   in cranberry, black currant, crowberry, bog whortleberry,
   blueberries, and bilberry. ..."

More about black currants' myricetin content in

Mikkonen TP, Maatta KR, Hukkanen AT, Kokko HI, Torronen AR, Karenlampi
SO, Karjalainen RO.
Flavonol content varies among black currant cultivars.
J Agric Food Chem. 2001 Jul;49(7):3274-7.
PMID: 11453762 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11453762
>

   "... Myricetin was the most abundant flavonol, and its amount
   varied significantly among cultivars, from 8.9 to
   24.5 mg x 100 g(-1). ..."

Jam processing does not seem to have large effect on the phenolic
content of the berries:

Amakura Y, Umino Y, Tsuji S, Tonogai Y.
Influence of jam processing on the radical scavenging activity and
phenolic content in berries.
J Agric Food Chem. 2000 Dec;48(12):6292-7.
PMID: 11312801 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstra
ctPlus&list_uids=11312801
>

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 10:16 GMT
>:::::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
>:::::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>I don' t deny that, but that is another issue. We were talking about walnuts
>and ALA here.

Yes, and I have just shown that there is no reason to take walnuts.
There is nothing in them which you couldn't get elsewhere or even
replace with substances more beneficial in PCa. According to the
current knowledge walnuts' relatively high ALA content causes them to
classified as undesirable for PCa patients.

>: ALA increases growth rate much
>: more than myricetin slows it down, so _very_ theoretically and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>There are also other factors affecting the net effect, like the high
>gamma-tocopherol content of walnuts which is of course a beneficial effect.

You can also get plenty of gamma-tocopherol from other nuts which have
concsiderably less or no ALA. Pistachios for example have more
gamma-tocopherol than english walnuts and much less ALA. There is
absolutely no need to take ALA in the form of walnuts to get
beneficial substances.

>(And yes, it is possible to take gamma-tocopherol as a supplement but that
>is another issue again.)

Why it should be a separate issue?

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 17 Aug 2006 10:59 GMT
:::::::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
:::::::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
: current knowledge walnuts' relatively high ALA content causes them to
: classified as undesirable for PCa patients.

I don't share your opinion.

::: ALA increases growth rate much
::: more than myricetin slows it down, so _very_ theoretically and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
: concsiderably less or no ALA. Pistachios for example have more
: gamma-tocopherol than english walnuts and much less ALA.

According to the data I have pistachios are only slightly better source of
gamma-tocopherol than walnuts:
Pecans 24,4 mg/ 100 g
Pistachios 22,6 mg/ 100g
Walnuts 20,8 mg/ 100 g

:  There is
: absolutely no need to take ALA in the form of walnuts to get
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
:
: Why it should be a separate issue?

Very few people consume mixed tocopherols as supplements. (I do, however.
;-)  )

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 17 Aug 2006 11:55 GMT
>:::::::::::: Research often has a coverage bias, in the sense that it
>:::::::::::: studies species abundant in the researchers' own region.
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
>I don't share your opinion.

That does not come as surprise You have, however, failed to show
convincing evidence why PCa patients should eat walnuts no matter what
and regerdless of the risk associated to them by their high ALA
content. There is nothing in walnuts which cannot be got from other
sources without ALA.

>::: ALA increases growth rate much
>::: more than myricetin slows it down, so _very_ theoretically and
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Pistachios 22,6 mg/ 100g
>Walnuts 20,8 mg/ 100 g

So what? What's your point?. Pistachios' ALA content is neglibile
compared with walnuts, which makes them much safer source of
gamma-tocopherol than walnuts for PCa patients, IMHO. If in future
it's found that ALA is, after all, safe for PCA patients, I'll change
my opinion, but according to current knowledge the situation is this.

>:  There is
>: absolutely no need to take ALA in the form of walnuts to get
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Very few people consume mixed tocopherols as supplements. (I do, however.
>;-)  )

And that should make it a separate issue? I fail to understand your
logic.

BTW, gamma-tocopherol is available also as a separate supplement.
Taking gamma-tocopherol raises both alpha-tocopherol and
gamma-tocopherol levels.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Steve Kramer - 16 Aug 2006 16:27 GMT
> Remember that you are talking to cancer patients. Do you have cancer?
> We are not talking casually about prevention here, but about people,
> whose lifes could be endangered by careless advice.

Hi Matti

More out of curiosity than anything else, are you somehow connected to
prostate cancer?

I really enjoy your posts and welcome the apparently educated opinions.
Just wondering if it is altruism or if someone you know is a victim.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06, 6/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 .145
Casodex added daily 07/06
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Matti Narkia - 16 Aug 2006 21:28 GMT
>> Remember that you are talking to cancer patients. Do you have cancer?
>> We are not talking casually about prevention here, but about people,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I really enjoy your posts and welcome the apparently educated opinions.
>Just wondering if it is altruism or if someone you know is a victim.

Ca dx 1988, not PCa though, have been seeking information since then
and have to sometimes spill it out ;-)

Signature

Matti Narkia

I.P. Freely - 18 Aug 2006 17:56 GMT
> I really enjoy your posts and welcome the apparently educated opinions.
> Just wondering if it is altruism or if someone you know is a victim.

Third option: a fondness for academic debate. Regardless of their
motives, I enjoy the process, and although my head spins as I skim their
debate, I hope to glean a bottom line consensus on these questions:
Should we eat walnuts? Should we take flax seed oil?

So far,  I THINK it's time I quit eating a handful of walnuts every day
and take gamma tocopherol supplements instead, and just drop the
flaxseed oil. Or are the effects so genuinely debatable that it's a tie
and we may as well eat the dang walnuts if we like 'em? I eat bales of
strawberries and bags of blueberries, but rutabagas or wine? No way
(can't get past the taste).

I.P.
Juhana Harju - 18 Aug 2006 19:38 GMT
:: I really enjoy your posts and welcome the apparently educated
:: opinions. Just wondering if it is altruism or if someone you know is
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
: bales of strawberries and bags of blueberries, but rutabagas or wine?
: No way (can't get past the taste).

Quitting flaxseed oil is a reasonable choice to make, but I am not so sure
about walnuts. There are at least two factors favouring eating them (very
high myricetin content and high gamma-tocopherol content). On the other
hand, they also contain a moderate amount (9%) alpha-linolenic acid which
might be harmful in prostate cancer.

I don't think that there is any reason to add rutabagas into your diet
(particularly if you don't like them) if you already eat strawberries and
blueberries, but I think that there is good evidence favoring drinking red
wine in relation to PC. It should be noticed that non-alcoholic red wine
should work also.

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 19 Aug 2006 01:01 GMT
>:: I really enjoy your posts and welcome the apparently educated
>:: opinions. Just wondering if it is altruism or if someone you know is
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Quitting flaxseed oil is a reasonable choice to make, but I am not so sure
>about walnuts.

I agree that quitting flaxseed oil is the sensible thing to do, if one
has PCa. Walnuts are are a bit tougher to decide. They contain
myricetin and gamma-tocopherol, which probably are beneficial, but
they also contain alpha-linolenic acid (ALA), which is probably
harmful for PCa patients (not for others). I personally wouldn't
consume large amounts of walnuts, if I had PCa, but I guess everyone
has by now some kind of idea what the current facts are, and can make
his one decisions.

>There are at least two factors favouring eating them (very
>high myricetin content and high gamma-tocopherol content). On the other
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>wine in relation to PC. It should be noticed that non-alcoholic red wine
>should work also.

I totally agree about red wine as long as it is Chilean Cabernet
Sauvignon, or with salmon, sufficiently cooled Chilean Pinot Noir. :-)

Signature

Matti Narkia

Matti Narkia - 19 Aug 2006 01:11 GMT
>> I really enjoy your posts and welcome the apparently educated opinions.
>> Just wondering if it is altruism or if someone you know is a victim.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>debate, I hope to glean a bottom line consensus on these questions:
>Should we eat walnuts? Should we take flax seed oil?

I think you are right about the fondness for academic debate :-).

Flaxseed oil: don't take it. Walnuts: you have the facts, its your
decision; I wouldn't consume large amounts though, if I had  PCa, but
that's just me.

>So far,  I THINK it's time I quit eating a handful of walnuts every day
>and take gamma tocopherol supplements instead, and just drop the
>flaxseed oil. Or are the effects so genuinely debatable that it's a tie
>and we may as well eat the dang walnuts if we like 'em? I eat bales of
>strawberries and bags of blueberries, but rutabagas or wine? No way
>(can't get past the taste).

Berries are definitely good for you, and a glass or two of Chilean
Cabernet Sauvignon or Pinot Noir daily won't harm you and could be
beneficial, but anything more than that could be harmful, because
alcohol tends to increase tumor angiogenesis, if used excessively.

Signature

Matti Narkia

Juhana Harju - 19 Aug 2006 08:04 GMT
:: I eat bales of strawberries and bags of blueberries, but rutabagas
:: or wine? No way (can't get past the taste).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
: beneficial, but anything more than that could be harmful, because
: alcohol tends to increase tumor angiogenesis, if used excessively.

It is probably wise to drink most of the red wine as non-alcoholic as over 3
alcoholic drinks a week starts to raise the risk of prostate cancer. The
study below does not find a higher risk in red wine consumption, but I
extrapolated my view from the the data of total alcohol consumption. I
assume that resveratrol and other flavonoids in red wine are beneficial but
alcohol is to be avoided.

http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/4/749

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Juhana Harju - 19 Aug 2006 08:24 GMT
::: I eat bales of strawberries and bags of blueberries, but rutabagas
::: or wine? No way (can't get past the taste).
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
:
: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/4/749

This study has found a more beneficial effect of red wine in relation to
PCa.

Int J Cancer. 2005 Jan 1;113(1):133-40.
Alcohol consumption and risk of prostate cancer in middle-aged men.
Schoonen WM, Salinas CA, Kiemeney LA, Stanford JL.
Division of Public Health Sciences, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center,
Seattle, WA 98109-1024, USA.

Alcohol consumption is a modifiable lifestyle factor that may affect
prostate cancer risk. Alcohol alters the hormonal milieu and contains
chemical substances such as flavonoids (red wine), which may alter tumor
cell growth. Data from a population-based case-control study in King County,
WA, were utilized to evaluate the association of alcohol consumption with
prostate cancer in middle-aged men. A total of 753 newly diagnosed prostate
cancer cases, 40-64 years of age, participated in the study. Seven hundred
three control subjects, frequency matched to cases by age, were selected
through random digit dialing. All participants completed an in-person
interview on lifetime alcohol consumption and other risk factors for
prostate cancer. Logistic regression models were used to estimate odds
ratios (OR) and assess significance (95% confidence intervals [CI]). All
tests of statistical significance were two-sided. No clear association with
prostate cancer risk was seen for overall alcohol consumption. Each
additional glass of red wine consumed per week showed a statistically
significant 6% decrease in relative risk (OR = 0.94; 95% CI = 0.90-0.98),
and there was evidence for a decline in risk estimates across increasing
categories of red wine intake (trend p = 0.02). No clear associations were
seen for consumption of beer or liquor. Our present study suggests that
consumption of beer or liquor is not associated with prostate cancer. There
may be, however, a reduced relative risk associated with increasing level of
red wine consumption. Further research is needed to evaluate the potential
negative association between red wine intake and prostate cancer risk. PMID:
15386436

http://tinyurl.com/3rj2p

Signature

Juhana

"All facts are theory-laden"
- Paul Feyerabend

Matti Narkia - 19 Aug 2006 14:02 GMT
>:: I eat bales of strawberries and bags of blueberries, but rutabagas
>:: or wine? No way (can't get past the taste).
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>http://ije