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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / June 2006

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British Study

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Robbie - 03 Jun 2006 18:27 GMT
I read a recent news article about a study at the Institute
of Cancer Research in England where they conclude that
maybe its not always a good idea to use aggressive treatment of PC.
They base their opinion on a long term
study where patients with low grade cancer have about
a 1% chance of dying of PC with or without treatment over a 15 year study
period.

Anyone else see the article and have an opinion.

I had an RRP in 2000 and the side effects have been intolerable at times.

Robbie
judamd@aol.com - 03 Jun 2006 19:13 GMT
I haven't seen this study but when I was diagnosed in 2003, I saw
graphs showing what I could expect if I left my cancer untreated.  I
had a 20% chance of dying from PCa in 15 years with a Gleason 6 and PSA
4.9.  That also doesn't include those still alive at 15 years but with
metastatic disease who whould die in the next few years.  The graphs of
those with Gleason 4 were closer to the low percents in the British
study so I suspect the study was referring to these low Gleasons, not
those in the intermediate and higher ranges.
Dave Perry
> I read a recent news article about a study at the Institute
> of Cancer Research in England where they conclude that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Robbie
Alex - 03 Jun 2006 19:35 GMT
>I read a recent news article about a study at the Institute
> of Cancer Research in England where they conclude that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Robbie
Robbie, I posted a link to this study a week or two ago, and it stimulated
quite a discussion.
Essentially the study's authors said their findings show little to no
benefit from aggressive treatment of prostate cancer for men with Gleason
scores of 6 or below during the 15 years after diagnosis. For those with
more aggressive cancers (higher Gleason scores), aggressive treatment did
seem to pay off in terms of decreased mortality.
The data also found that low-Gleason prostate cancer is much less likely to
cause death (during the 15-year period after diagnosis) than other risks,
such as other diseases, accidents, etc. These non-PCa risks took the lives
of about 30 percent of those studied.
For those with Gleason of 6 or less who are actively watched by a competent
physician and get their PSA checked regularly, the findings SUGGEST that
this course may be a reasonable alternative to surgery, radiation, etc.
(Full disclosure:  that category includes me, which is why I found the
article so interesting.)
These men need to carefully weigh the near-certainty of experiencing some
side effects of active treatment against the relatively low apparent benefit
(a 1% or less decrease in mortality over a 15-year period) and the
relatively high likelihood that, even after treatment, they have a 1-in-3
chance of dying from some unrelated cause (heart attack, car crash, getting
shot by angry husband of girlfriend, etc.)
Those who disagreed with this point of view noted that it is just one study
(actually a study based on findings of many other studies, but still just
one group's point of view.) They also noted that it is based on findings in
Britain, where the National Health System has an incentive to hold down
costs, and that American treatment strategies may differ.
Also, the study had to use data from men diagnosed up to 15 years ago. In
the interim, some posters noted, there have been major advances in
treatment. (However, the flip side of this criticism is that the very low
risk means that even improvement in treatment can produce little real
benefit for men who would not die of PCa anyway. In addition, men electing
"active surveillance" of a low-risk cancer may in the next few years benefit
from one of the many new treatments being developed by researchers.)
Many guys, justifiably, don't want to play the odds, and "want it out." They
feel more comfortable taking aggressive measures against a potentially
deadly disease.
Also, several posters noted that Gleason scores in biopsies are not always
correct; many a man has gone under the knife with a Gleason 6 diagnosis,
only to be told that pathologists who dissected the entire removed prostate
found cancer with a higher Gleason score.
In short, it is an interesting study, but not likely to change many minds
here.

Alex
Robbie - 04 Jun 2006 05:12 GMT
Thanks for the responses. I don't follow this newsgroup as carefully as I
did
when I was first treated. My numbers (Gleason 5 - before and after, PSA 5.2)
probably would have put me in the category where I could opt for
watchful waiting. Given what I know now about side effects and finally
some movement on more targeted treatments - I might be willing to
wait awhile.

Robbie

>>I read a recent news article about a study at the Institute
>> of Cancer Research in England where they conclude that
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>
> Alex
Alan Meyer - 04 Jun 2006 05:15 GMT
Good summary of the discussion Alex.

   Alan
centitalensa@gmail.com - 05 Jun 2006 00:35 GMT
It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  I
wonder how much you know about alternative medicine and have you read
the publications regarding the use of saw palmetto throughout the
cancer treatment process?

Cheers,
Leah Favreau

> I read a recent news article about a study at the Institute
> of Cancer Research in England where they conclude that
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Robbie
Steve Jordan - 05 Jun 2006 01:25 GMT
On June 4, "centitalensa@gmail.com" wrote, in pertinent part:
> It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  
That is *not* what the study said, but this person is no doubt
handicapped in understanding English.

"Never a good idea." Utterly insane.

Regards,

Steve J

"Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't."
-- Mark Twain
centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 02:04 GMT
Perhaps you mistake me.  Aggressive prevention of cancer is a good
idea.  Careful treatment of it, is necessary.  A small percentage of
men and women, alike -- ever survive the traditional AGGRESSIVE western
treatment of cancer.  Yet, careful treatment of it is by far, more
successful.

I refer to the devastating effects of an aggressive implementation of
certain toxic chemotherapy agents and I do apologize for not being
clear.  However, if you would, I left another comment in response to
what someone else said.  Please read it.

Thanks,
Leah

> On June 4, "centitalensa@gmail.com" wrote, in pertinent part:
> > It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't."
> -- Mark Twain
Steve Kramer - 06 Jun 2006 11:26 GMT
> Perhaps you mistake me.  Aggressive prevention of cancer is a good
> idea.

You through me off when you said, "aggressive prevention of cance is never a
good idea."

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 12:54 GMT
"Aggressive" insofar as "aggressive side effects" without detox.
Glutathione or, the precursors to glutathione by injection has been my
saving grace. This, in combination with liver and kidney flushes.

> > Perhaps you mistake me.  Aggressive prevention of cancer is a good
> > idea.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 13:10 GMT
And, I believe I said aggressive treatment (v. prevention) is never a
good idea. While considering Herxheimer effect and all of the many
other harsh side effects one experiences either while going through
chemo, surgery or otherwise "progressive and careful" treatment is
best.  I'd have a detox program, an aggressive detox program
implemented, first.

Frankly, I don't allow a western practitioner of medicine to put his
hands on me.  I took off just as soon as they wanted to pump me full of
heavy metals and then throw me in a magnet for imaging.  The damage
caused me, was caused by a radioactive experimental drug they pumped
into my veins and their protocol while attempting to diagnose various
other things called for more of it. ?????

I wrote them off long ago and seven years into my journey, I am
healthier now than I was then.  A possible six months v. a certain
seven years?

Now, to begin -- I'd like everyone to research coconut oil and find the
government studies that prove coconut oil is responsible for the break
down of viruses and parasites that are causing cancer.  So effective is
coconut oil, it has been repeatedly shown to kill the HIV virus.  They
are extracting constituents, currently -- for the use in the
pharmacalogical treatment of cancer.

> > Perhaps you mistake me.  Aggressive prevention of cancer is a good
> > idea.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Skids - 08 Jun 2006 02:38 GMT
You specifically stated "It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never
a good idea."
I think you're the one that's mistaken.

> Perhaps you mistake me.  Aggressive prevention of cancer is a good
> idea.  Careful treatment of it, is necessary.  A small percentage of
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>> "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't."
>> -- Mark Twain
centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:17 GMT
Aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea without a detox
program.  From the statistics I am aware of, aggressive treatment of
cancer using traditional chemo drugs results in a less than 2% survival
rate.

In any event, the debate bores me.  It appears this group was dead
before I resurrected it.  Half dead haters just lurching in the wings,
just waiting to hate.

It's sickening, to say the least.
> You specifically stated "It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never
> a good idea."
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> >> "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't."
> >> -- Mark Twain
centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 02:18 GMT
As for the quote, it's very cute and appropriate under these
circumstances --where my comment may have been misinterpreted.  My
point was made in response to the devastating side effects of
aggressive cancer treatment.  Traditional treatment (surgery,
radiation, chemotherapy, et cetera).  Now, there are ways to
aggressively treat the cancer without the aggressive (emphasis added),
devastating side effects.  That was all I intended to relay.  Perhaps I
popped into the wrong group.  I apologize if I've offended.

While I apologize, I realize I'll be taking a colloidal silver
injection in just a minute.

Not so aggressive in comparison.  That was all I meant.

Be well,
Leah

> On June 4, "centitalensa@gmail.com" wrote, in pertinent part:
> > It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "Those who don't read have no advantage over those who can't."
> -- Mark Twain
Steve Kramer - 05 Jun 2006 02:08 GMT
> It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  I
> wonder how much you know about alternative medicine and have you read
> the publications regarding the use of saw palmetto throughout the
> cancer treatment process?

Never?  How about a 46-year-old with Gleason 7, 16 PSA and T3c?

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 02:09 GMT
I use an Ultimate Zapper, a combination of a number of herbs, coconut
oil (has been shown to kill the HIV, by the way), food grade
diatomaceous earth, sea kelp and a number of other over the counter
substances that serve to detox the harsh biproducts created by the
cancer. Glutathione or N-acetyl cysteine, for example.

I constantly detox my liver and kidneys, flush my gallbladder and
destroy cancer tumors with agenst as benign as Noni juice.  Noni juice,
friend.  There is nothing aggressive about sweating vegetables in
coconut oil and downing a glass of Noni juice.  Noni not only halts the
growth of cancerous tumors but, reverts the cells back to normal.

This is all I meant.  I meant no harm beyond this.  Please forgive me
if you have taken offense.

Leah

> > It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  I
> > wonder how much you know about alternative medicine and have you read
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
I.P. Freely - 06 Jun 2006 02:22 GMT
centitalensa@gmail.com spewed:
>   Please forgive me
> if you have taken offense.

It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive, in
that you insult the hell out of the cancer experts here with your
nonsense. Go peddle your voodoo in some hangnail forum, where there's
less potential for harm. You're an idiot and/or a spammer, and our
patience has worn thin on both.

PLONK.

I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 02:26 GMT
I am neither an idiot nor am I a spammer.  You, on the other hand are
crude and disgustingly offensive, within certaintly.  Just where the
hell do you get off?  If this group was not open to the public, you
should have marked it as such.

It is true, yesterday was my first go at checking out "google groups."
Thanks much for making it a fine introduction.

Cancer expert you say?

If you are an expert and have worked for the NIH, as I have, then
surely you know what I say to be true.

You, my friend, are no expert.  A want to be expert no better versed on
much of anything more beyond your ability to insult a person who came
by whole heartedly and within sincerity.

Leah

> centitalensa@gmail.com spewed:
> >   Please forgive me
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I.P.
Steve Kramer - 06 Jun 2006 11:36 GMT
>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,

<centitalensa@gmail.com> replied:

>You, on the other hand are
> crude and disgustingly offensive, within certaintly.

> It is true, yesterday was my first go at checking out "google groups."

Wow!  It usually takes people several days to come to that conclusion.  ;-)

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

I.P. Freely - 06 Jun 2006 17:02 GMT
>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Wow!  It usually takes people several days to come to that conclusion.  ;-)

It doesn't take spammers much more than minutes, when I'm so inclined.
If in fact she's legit and totally naive about newsgroups, I'll
apologize about my opening sentence. But anyone who claims she's
eradicating all cancers and HIV with smoothies is in for a rough ride on
 the internet, especially when as far as we know she doesn't even HAVE
cancer or HIV, and she sounds just like all the other Fagbemi's who
troll through here.

I.P.
I.P. Freely - 06 Jun 2006 18:09 GMT
>>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> cancer or HIV, and she sounds just like all the other Fagbemi's who
> troll through here.

No apology due or forthcoming. Google reveals that this is not her first
time on forums. In fact she's been at this for a while, lurking and
sometimes posting under this and at least one alter ego, in multiple
forums, with the same attitude.

BUSTED, Leah.

(BTW, Leah, better get out of those pyramid schemes. They're both
illegal and bogus, and the KIDS route could be even worse.)

I.P.
Glowing in the Dark - 06 Jun 2006 19:14 GMT
>>>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> I.P.

Any place I see "Noni Juice" is a dead giveaway :-)  Next she'll be
advocating Oil Extract of the Indonesian Green Snake :-)

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 04:10 GMT
What is it that you doubt about the Noni fruit?  Do you feel the same
about orange juice?  What do you doubt?  Do you honestly doubt or is it
that you plainly do not know?

Do you doubt pineapple has an enzyme called "bromelain" that directly
acts to kill various cestodes in the body?

Tell me what it is about this fruit I mention that you doubt and why.
Or, in the alternative, ask your question about it and I will see what
I am able to do in order to answer it.

Do you have foundation for your doubt or is it that you doubt because
it is easier?  I'll tell you what I doubt.  I doubt you understand the
majority of the chemotherapy agents used in treating cancer may easily
be purchased in the form of over the counter "safeguard" --the dog
dewormer.

What do you know about Noni and what would you want to know should you
truly find interest while not blatantly dismissing it without cause?

> >>>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Any place I see "Noni Juice" is a dead giveaway :-)  Next she'll be
> advocating Oil Extract of the Indonesian Green Snake :-)
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 05:05 GMT
Cancer preventive effect of Morinda citrifolia (Noni).

Wang MY, Su C.

Department of Pathology, UIC College of Medicine, Rockford, Illinois
61107, USA. mianwang@uic.edu

Morinda citrifolia (Noni) has been extensively used in folk medicine by
Polynesians for over 2,000 years. It has been reported to have broad
therapeutic effects, including anticancer activity, in both clinical
practice and laboratory animal models. The mechanism for these effects
remains unknown. The hypothesis that Morinda citrifolia possesses a
cancer preventive effect at the initiation stage of carcinogenesis was
studied. Our preliminary data indicated that 10% Tahitian Noni Liquid
Dietary Supplement or Tahitian Noni Juice (TNJ), made from Morinda
citrifolia fruit by Morinda Inc, in drinking water for one week was
able to prevent DMBA-DNA adduct formation. The levels of DMBA-DNA
adducts were reduced by 30% in the heart, 41% in the lung, 42% in the
liver, and 80% in the kidney of female SD rats. Even more dramatic
results were obtained in male C57 BL-6 mice: 10% TNJ was able to reduce
DMBA-DNA adduct formation by 60% in the heart, 50% in the lung, 70% in
the liver, and 90% in the kidney. In order to explore the mechanism of
this preventive effect, the antioxidant activity of TNJ was examined in
vitro by lipid hydroperoxide (LPO) and tetrazolium nitroblue (TNB)
assays. In the LPO assay, LPO oxidizes leucomethylene blue to methylene
blue in the presence of hemoglobin. The resultant blue color was
quantified at 660 nm spectrophotometrically. In the TNB assay,
superoxide anion radicals (SAR) reduce TNB into formazan blue that was
also measured by absorption at 602 nm. TNJ showed a dose-dependent
inhibition of both LPO and SAR in our system. The antioxidant activity
of TNJ was compared to the effects of vitamin C, grape seed powder
(GSP), and pycnogenol (PYC) at the daily dose per serving level
recommended by U.S.RDAs or manufacturers. The results suggest that
prevention of carcinogen-DNA adduct formation and the antioxidant
activity of TNJ may contribute to the cancer preventive effect of
Morinda citrifolia.

PMID: 11795436 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >>>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Any place I see "Noni Juice" is a dead giveaway :-)  Next she'll be
> advocating Oil Extract of the Indonesian Green Snake :-)
Glowing in the Dark - 07 Jun 2006 11:57 GMT
> Cancer preventive effect of Morinda citrifolia (Noni).
>
> Wang MY, Su C.
>
> Department of Pathology, UIC College of Medicine, Rockford, Illinois
> 61107, USA. mianwang@uic.edu

[snip]

Then again...

Hepatotoxicity of NONI juice: report of two cases.

Stadlbauer V, Fickert P, Lackner C, Schmerlaib J, Krisper P, Trauner M,
Stauber RE.

Department of Internal Medicine, Medical University Graz, Austria.

NONI juice (Morinda citrifolia) is an increasingly popular wellness drink
claimed to be beneficial for many illnesses. No overt toxicity has been
reported to date. We present two cases of novel hepatotoxicity of NONI juice.
Causality of liver injury by NONI juice was assessed. Routine laboratory
tests and transjugular or percutaneous liver biopsy were performed. The first
patient underwent successful liver transplantation while the second patient
recovered spontaneously after cessation of NONI juice. A 29-year-old man with
previous toxic hepatitis associated with small doses of paracetamol developed
sub-acute hepatic failure following consumption of 1.5 L NONI juice over 3 wk
necessitating urgent liver transplantation. A 62-year-old woman without
evidence of previous liver disease developed an episode of self-limited acute
hepatitis following consumption of 2 L NONI juice for over 3 mo. The most
likely hepatotoxic components of Morinda citrifolia were anthraquinones.
Physicians should be aware of potential hepatotoxicity of NONI juice.

PMID: 16094725 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Then there is the inconvenient high rate of cancer in French Polynesia, the
Noni Drinkers Capital of the World.

Oh, and let's not forget the $881,000 grant Ms. Wang has received from...
wait for it... Morinda Corporation, one of the leading marketers of...can
anyone guess?  Anyone?

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:43 GMT
Health-Related Research

Chemical Constituents of Noni (Morinda citrifolia)
Following is a partial list of chemical constituents isolated from
noni, and their proposed or documented medicinal qualities or cultural
significance. The table was assembled from the literature presented in
the "Noni Bibliography" on this web site. There are reportedly
numerous other compounds isolated from the noni plant that may have
significant biological activity and are currently under investigation.
Noni Plant organ(s) Compound(s) Proposed or documented effects of
compounds Discussion & Notes
FRUIT and FRUIT JUICE Alkaloids (xeronine) In theory, xeronine enhances
enzyme activity and protein structure *According to some authorities,
the existence and the proposed effects of the so-called alkaloid,
xeronine, and/or the compound, pre-xeronine, have not been
substantiated.
 Polysaccharides (glucuronic acid; galactose; arabinose; rhamose;
glycosides; trisaccharide fatty acid ester) Immuno-stimulatory;
immuno-modulatory; anti-bacterial; anti-tumor; anti-cancer. A promising
area for research and a highly beneficial set of compounds.
 Scopoletin Dilates vasculature & lowers blood pressure;
anti-bacterial & anti-fungal; anti-inflammatory; analgesic;
histamine-inhibiting; arthritic conditions; allergies; sleep disorders;
migraine headaches; depression; Alzheimer's disease. Potentially wide
applications.
 Vitamins and Minerals: magnesium; iron; potassium; selenium; zinc;
copper; sulfur; ascorbic acid (vitamin C). The positive medical effects
of the vitamins and minerals in noni juice are well documented. For any
questions or medical and health concerns, consult a physician or
dietician. Noni juice is an excellent source of vitamin C.
FOLIAGE & CELL SUSPENSIONS Anthraquinones (damnacanthal) Antiseptic &
antibacterial effects in digestive tract (Staphylococcus, Shingela,
Salmonella). Internal application.
 Glycosides (flavonol glycoside; iridoid glycoside,
"citrifolinoside") Anti-cancer effects: (DPPH free radical
scavenging activity; inhibition of UVB-induced Activator Protein-1
activity in cell cultures. Discovery reported in 2001.
ROOTS Anthraquinones (damnacanthal) Inhibits formation of lung
carcinoma in mice. Research from University of Hawai'i at Manoa
 Morindin and Morindone Dyes, yellow and red colorants used for tapa
cloth; anti-bacterial. Culturally significant.

It's not that the rate of cancer has anything to do with filth.  "It's
the fruit"  -- by your undeveloped view.

What a joke.

> > Cancer preventive effect of Morinda citrifolia (Noni).
> >
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> wait for it... Morinda Corporation, one of the leading marketers of...can
> anyone guess?  Anyone?
Glowing in the Dark - 07 Jun 2006 14:15 GMT
[snip]

> It's not that the rate of cancer has anything to do with filth.  "It's
> the fruit"  -- by your undeveloped view.

non sequitur
   n 1: a reply that has no relevance to what preceded it

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 03:43 GMT
I'd mind what sorts of accusations you make against me, Sir.  You're a
miserable excuse for a human being.  What pyramid schemes?  I was
speaking only of coconut oil.  Or is it that you've googled my name and
have found I am not the only Leah in this world?

Nothing better to do with your time?

> >>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 03:46 GMT
As for whether or not this was my first time in Google groups (I assume
that is what you are referring to when mentioning "forums") -- indeed,
it was. Just the other day.
However, it appears I've walked into a group with a woman hating camel,
on board.
Entirely sickening.  Meanwhile, while you go on being miserable, I'll
go on getting well.

Perhaps people only briefly stop by here, as you say -- because they
are confronted by the bridge keeping troll that you are when they come.

> >>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 03:52 GMT
To your brighter, days -- you blatant jerk:  www.alphaimports.com

Pyramid schemes?  I'm covered in diamonds.  I'm independently very
wealthy.  Now, with this link to this private source, perhaps your days
will be brighter, as well.

It's terrible your end of days are as miserable as they are.  Cheer
them up, bridge keeper.

Secondarily, I never made any claims, whatsoever.  I only cited what is
already published by the CDC and the NIH.  Because you are not
informed, I'll only hope you will remedy that condition, as much.

Very sincerely yours, Blue diamonds and all --

Leah

> >>>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 03:39 GMT
You're a miserable person, I.P. and because what you say has very
little influence in my life, I'll simply refuse to hear you.

Understand?

Now, it's terrible you've opted to live your life in such a way where
you now find satisfaction in slinging digs.  Yet, that's your bed.  I
won't lie in it.

> >>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I.P.
Steve Kramer - 07 Jun 2006 11:20 GMT
Leah,

By my count, you have "refused to hear" him almost a dozen times now.

> You're a miserable person, I.P. and because what you say has very
> little influence in my life, I'll simply refuse to hear you.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>> I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:09 GMT
I have refused to hear who?  I came in for a moment and then had some
f.cked a.shole defame me online.  I warned, I will defend. No doubt.

What I hear is that This IP and apparently, you ride his wave, now too
-- stated I advocated nutrition and herbs in place of traditionaly
chemo. I never did.  I simply say it is what I opt in it's place.  Stop
talking your lot of junk and I will disappear.  Until then, I will
defend and I assure you, should I find need to contract a lawyer in
order to do so, I will.

Got it?

> Leah,
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> >>
> >> I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:18 GMT
I gave a gift of sincerity and while that was not enough, a gift of
diamonds to what appears to be a lot of pigs happy slpping around in
their mud while they sling it without cause.

Decline a response and I, along with all of my entries, will disappear.

Continue the flame and I'll be only sincerely satisfied when return the
same in kind.

> I have refused to hear who?  I came in for a moment and then had some
> f.cked a.shole defame me online.  I warned, I will defend. No doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> > >>
> > >> I.P.
Steve Kramer - 08 Jun 2006 00:25 GMT
>I have refused to hear who?  I came in for a moment and then had some
> f.cked a.shole defame me online.  I warned, I will defend. No doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> defend and I assure you, should I find need to contract a lawyer in
> order to do so, I will.

And I will take it up with mine - Lawyer Daggett. And he will make money and
I will make money and your lawyer will make money... and you, Miss
Unlicensed Druggist, you will foot the bill. I've got a good lawyer in J.
Noble Daggett.
Steve Jordan - 08 Jun 2006 01:10 GMT
On June 7, Steve Kramer replied to that which calls itself "Leah" and
writes (June 4) that "..aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good
idea.":

Quoting "Leah":
>> .....I assure you, should I find need to contract a lawyer in
>> order to do so (defend itself), I will.
>>    
Steve K wrote:
> And I will take it up with mine - Lawyer Daggett. And he will make money and
> I will make money and your lawyer will make money... and you, Miss
> Unlicensed Druggist, you will foot the bill. I've got a good lawyer in J.
> Noble Daggett.
>  
Hee hee, pretty much a quote from the novel _True Grit_ by Charles
Portis and the Duke Wayne movie based upon it. The movie is one of the
few I've seen that closely follow not only the plotline but the dialogue
of the movie. This is a quote of Mattie Ross from both.

Well done, Steve K.

Regards,

Steve J

"I am under no obligation to respect your beliefs. Respect is earned; it
is not an entitlement..."
-- Lionel Shriver
centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:14 GMT
Yawn.

Camels, like I said.

> >I have refused to hear who?  I came in for a moment and then had some
> > f.cked a.shole defame me online.  I warned, I will defend. No doubt.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Unlicensed Druggist, you will foot the bill. I've got a good lawyer in J.
> Noble Daggett.
Steve Kramer - 11 Jun 2006 12:18 GMT
> Yawn.
>
> Camels, like I said.

Awwwwwwwww.  You came back.  And here I thought you had a shred of pride.

But, I see by your clever retort, you haven't much going on in that brain
box.

So, sadly, I too must PLONK!
Per1000IPDay6@126.com - 12 Jun 2006 16:26 GMT
EnergyKey
------------------------------ ------------------------------
------------------------------
http://www30.webSamba.com/SmartStudio
------------------------------ ------------------------------
------------------------------
Save yourself from repetitive tasks
I.P. Freely - 12 Jun 2006 19:39 GMT
> EnergyKey
> ------------------------------ ------------------------------
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> ------------------------------
> Save yourself from repetitive tasks

Go to hell.

I.P.
Per1000IPDay6@126.com - 12 Jun 2006 16:29 GMT
Exchange lots of mouse moves and clicks for a single key press!
Significantly improve working speed by using shortcuts (hot keys).
Avoid Repetitive Strain Injury!

EnergyKey   http://www30.webSamba.com/SmartStudio
I.P. Freely - 12 Jun 2006 19:39 GMT
> Exchange lots of mouse moves and clicks for a single key press!
> Significantly improve working speed by using shortcuts (hot keys).
> Avoid Repetitive Strain Injury!
>
> EnergyKey   http://www30.webSamba.com/SmartStudio

Go to hell.

I.P.
Per1000IPDay6@126.com - 12 Jun 2006 16:30 GMT
Avoid typing the same text again and again
Stop wasting your time on mouse movements
Open favorite web pages with a single hotkey press
Record keystrokes and play them back with a single hotkey press
------------------------------
http://www30.webSamba.com/SmartStudio
------------------------------
EnergyKey   Save yourself from repetitive tasks
I.P. Freely - 12 Jun 2006 19:40 GMT
> Avoid typing the same text again and again
> Stop wasting your time on mouse movements
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ------------------------------
> EnergyKey   Save yourself from repetitive tasks

Go to hell.

I.P.
I.P. Freely - 12 Jun 2006 19:41 GMT
> Avoid typing the same text again and again
> Stop wasting your time on mouse movements
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> ------------------------------
> EnergyKey   Save yourself from repetitive tasks

Come to think of it, maybe I DO need a repetitive task button.

Go to hell.

I.P.
Skids - 08 Jun 2006 02:48 GMT
he-he
> Leah,
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>>
>>> I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:50 GMT
I never said I was eradicating anything.  You have compiled your biases
and heaped them on me without cause.  I'm embarrassed for you.

> >>> It's not that we TAKE offense, Leah; it's that you ARE offensive,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I.P.
Skids - 08 Jun 2006 02:50 GMT
PLONK

I hate people that keep changing their stories.

>I never said I was eradicating anything.  You have compiled your biases
> and heaped them on me without cause.  I'm embarrassed for you.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>>
>> I.P.
JerryW - 08 Jun 2006 14:50 GMT
"Skids" wrote...
> PLONK
>
> I hate people that keep changing their stories.

In addition to PLONKING, could we all just.....

"PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

JerryW
I.P. Freely - 10 Jun 2006 06:52 GMT
> "Skids" wrote...
>> PLONK
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> "PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

Oh, but they're so much FUN . . . until we tire of them.

I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 02:28 GMT
All others, be certain -- my intent was not to defame as I have been
subjected to such an outrageous way in response.  My intent here was
sincere.  Should I need to defend any further public affront, I will.
It is my hope I will not find need and will simply be allowed to be on
my way without further insult.  It was not necessary.

I meant no harm.

Leah

> centitalensa@gmail.com spewed:
> >   Please forgive me
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I.P.
Alex - 10 Jun 2006 22:52 GMT
> All others, be certain -- my intent was not to defame as I have been
> subjected to such an outrageous way in response.  My intent here was
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I meant no harm.

Leah's post claimed, among other wacky-sounding ideas, that coconut oil was
effective against HIV. That seemed so off-the-wall that I couldn't help
Googling it to find a smack-down research study to counter it.

To my shock, I found a couple of serious research studies on the topic. For
example, http://www.doh.gov.ph/SARS/coconut_oil.htm. A caveat:  the study
was done in the Phillipines. The researcher is Conrado Dayrit, a
well-respected pharmacologist there, and the father of the nation's Health
Secretary, Manuel Dayrit.

If nothing else, it's a great excuse to eat chocolate bars laden with
coconut oil.

Alex
I.P. Freely - 11 Jun 2006 00:10 GMT
> To my shock, I found a couple of serious research studies on the topic. For
> example, http://www.doh.gov.ph/SARS/coconut_oil.htm. A caveat:  the study
> was done in the Phillipines. The researcher is Conrado Dayrit, a
> well-respected pharmacologist there, and the father of the nation's Health
> Secretary, Manuel Dayrit.

Offset, of course, by the FDA's Cease and Desist order to coconut oil
websites demanding they stop making their unproven curative claims.

And 'round and 'round we go.

I.P.
Skids - 08 Jun 2006 02:42 GMT
idiot? spammer? Both I think.
> centitalensa@gmail.com spewed:
>>   Please forgive me
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> I.P.
Steve Kramer - 06 Jun 2006 11:35 GMT
>I use an Ultimate Zapper, a combination of a number of herbs, coconut
> oil (has been shown to kill the HIV, by the way), food grade
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Leah

No offense taken, Leah.  I didn't realize you were coming at this from a
serious standpoint.

I welcome you to the newsgroup.  We haven't had a legitimate voice for
natural medicines or natural cures since December 21, 2003.  Martin Howard
used to keep us up to date on alternative treatments.  The only problem he
ran into here was, well, the same as you did.  Once or twice, he tried to
convince others that we were wrong in choosing our treatments.

Of course, he's dead now.  But he served us as a tremendous example.  Please
keep us apprised, especially of your rising PSA numbers.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 13:24 GMT
I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

As for myself, I am not trying to convince anyone that they are wrong
in choosing their treatments.  I only hope to relay the mere fact that
their treatments are not their only options.  A combination of many
elements at once surely is better than a single agent while battling
this.

As for myself, there isn't anything I put in my body that does not have
an anticancer constituent to it. An entire diet or arsenal of
anitcancer agents.  I am eating chinese pearl barley for breakfast this
morning, for example.  Another food they are extracting elements from
in the development of a new anticancer pharmaceutical. Chinese pearl
barley, grape juice and a handful of pumpkin seeds.  I made the barley
with fresh cilantro. An herb proven to chelate mercury. A sprinkle of
cloves and peppermint leaf, as well.

Other herbs by extraction or tea:  Black walnut hull, artemisia annua,
goldenseal, hyssop, echinacea, ginkgo biloba, cat's claw and slippery
elm.

I'll also take the B vitamin complex with particular attention granted
to B12 and PABA.

> >I use an Ultimate Zapper, a combination of a number of herbs, coconut
> > oil (has been shown to kill the HIV, by the way), food grade
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Glowing in the Dark - 06 Jun 2006 19:33 GMT
[snip]

> We haven't had a legitimate voice for natural medicines or natural cures
> since December 21, 2003.

Steve, I'm curious as to what your criteria would be for "legitimate".

There are lots of well-intentioned, sincere people out there with no
financial interest in their position who are never the less engaging in
magical thinking.  "Alternative" doesn't mean "better"... it just means
alternative.  If something is bad it's alternative is not necessarily better.
In fact, it may be worse.

I, myself, have a very low opinion of Western medicine and it's practitioners
in general.  But I see no benefit in abandoning it for something with _less_
(or no) intellectual or scientific rigor.

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

juniper - 06 Jun 2006 21:38 GMT
> There are lots of well-intentioned, sincere people out there with no
> financial interest in their position who are never the less engaging in
> magical thinking.

I have been impressed lately that I have come across people/sites who
have successfully chosen alternative (mostly nutritional, I think)
therapies.  To me successful is reversing or stopping PSA progression
for years.  Last Saturday I was on a chat with a man who went from PSA
around 7 to <1 and has maintained that for 2 1/2 years.  He said he
posted his story but I can't find it, or I'd give a link.  Howard
Cohen's site is instructive.
http://www.cohensw.com/mvpcsg_nov99_text.html.  He uses the phrase
"aggressive monitoring."  I wish we had more of this in this group.

Unfortunately, a lot of men who want to do alternative things don't
have the #s to use that as their only approach.  Someone comes in with
a G7, they really need to treat, or at least if they don't, then they
are making a choice to ride the cancer tiger out to its inevitable end.
I think that is pretty well established.  

laurel
Glowing in the Dark - 06 Jun 2006 22:10 GMT
>> There are lots of well-intentioned, sincere people out there with no
>> financial interest in their position who are never the less engaging in
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> http://www.cohensw.com/mvpcsg_nov99_text.html.  He uses the phrase
> "aggressive monitoring."  I wish we had more of this in this group.

Sounds like the logical fallacy of "post hoc ergo propter hoc". I carried my
umbrella and it didn't rain.  Therefore carrying an umbrella prevents rain.

> Unfortunately, a lot of men who want to do alternative things don't
> have the #s to use that as their only approach.  Someone comes in with
> a G7, they really need to treat, or at least if they don't, then they
> are making a choice to ride the cancer tiger out to its inevitable end.
>  I think that is pretty well established.

All of us would jump at a cure.  All of us want to believe.  That creates an
opening for any quack remedy anyone can envision.  If these things work,
there should be no problem reproducing the results in large groups with
repeatable statistical certainty under accepted experimental circumstances.

To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

I.P. Freely - 06 Jun 2006 23:18 GMT
> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"

Uh, oh . . . my college roommate's mom, who was a down-to-earth lady
with two engineers in the family, watched a UFO hover and move very
nearby for minutes in the 1950s, at midday, on the Florida beach where
they lived. She told no one but her immediate family. A few years later,
a widely published historical author described having witnessed the same
object and behavior, on about the same date, at the same beach.

Na nu na nu na nu ma nu na nu

They're at Bradenton Beach, Florida, Enrico.

I.P.
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 04:04 GMT
These "things" are PROVEN. They would not then be taking the food and
extracting the constituent in order to turn that extraction into a
pharmaceutical.  Denying, refusing to hear or turning a cheek to
various ways to treat a disease does what, exactly?

You block yourself in.  You shorten your range, your horizon.

Coconut oil.  Find it at the NIH website and read what they are doing
with it for yourself if you have doubts.  Denying it in the wake of
doubt as opposed to conducting independent research?  Why?

You want your options tied up in what may or may not be presented to
you by someone else?  How does it hurt anyone when they set out to
learn more about something?

> >> There are lots of well-intentioned, sincere people out there with no
> >> financial interest in their position who are never the less engaging in
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
Steve Kramer - 07 Jun 2006 11:37 GMT
Leah, Leah, Leah....  My diamond-festooned poor little rich girl.

Can't you see you have lost your audience here?

Go away, little girl.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> These "things" are PROVEN. They would not then be taking the food and
> extracting the constituent in order to turn that extraction into a
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>>
>> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
centitalensa@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:13 GMT
Mr. Kramer,

Kind Sir, just as soon as you and your bestially ignorant side kick
remain silent.

Until then, I will defend.  Feed a flame?  Your choice.  I assure you,
although I originally came in here with sincerity of heart, I found
ugliness.  Where there's ugliness, I'll defend in kind, ten fold
really. Want game or will you simply decline a response and allow me to
be on my way.

I'm sickened by this scene and wish I had not had the displeasure of
visiting camels. Honestly.

> Leah, Leah, Leah....  My diamond-festooned poor little rich girl.
>
[quoted text clipped - 63 lines]
> >>
> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
MAS - 08 Jun 2006 03:29 GMT
Awwwwe heck. It's over and I have not had the opportunity to weigh in.

Gourd Dancer

> Mr. Kramer,
>
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
>> >>
>> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
MAS - 08 Jun 2006 04:51 GMT
On August 26, 1998, the Attorneys General of Arizona, California, New
Jersey, and Texas announced a multi-state settlement with Morinda, Inc., a
multilevel company headquartered in Linden, Utah. The states had charged
that Morinda had made unsubstantiated claims in consumer testimonials and
other promotional material that its "Tahitian Noni" juice could treat, cure
or prevent numerous diseases, including diabetes, depression, hemorrhoids
and arthritis. Such claims rendered the beverage an unapproved new drug
under state and federal food and drug laws and should not have been sold
until it received approval. Under the terms of the agreement, Morinda must:

 a.. No longer make drug claims, or claims that the product can cure,
treat, or prevent any disease until "Tahitian Noni" is approved and cleared
for those uses by the U.S. Food and Drug Adminstration.
 b.. Not make any other claims, whether health claims or others, regarding
the benefits of "Tahitian Noni" unless such claims are true and the company
can substantiate the claim by reliable scientific evidence.
 c.. Not use testimonials which imply that the advertised claimed results
are the typical or ordinary experience of consumers in actual conditions of
use, unless Morinda possesses and relies upon adequate substantiation that
the results are typical or ordinary.
In addition, Morinda must refund to any consumer who requests a refund in
writing, the full purchase price paid for the product. The agreement also
calls for Morinda to pay $100,000 for investigative costs.

> Awwwwe heck. It's over and I have not had the opportunity to weigh in.
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>>> >>
>>> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
Glowing in the Dark - 08 Jun 2006 09:54 GMT
> On August 26, 1998, the Attorneys General of Arizona, California, New
> Jersey, and Texas announced a multi-state settlement with Morinda, Inc., a
> multilevel company headquartered in Linden, Utah.

[snip]

Interesting.  I didn't know that.... and here I thought it was "PROVEN" :-)

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:37 GMT
What makes you think that just because a bunch of farm boys, standing
on behalf of the pharmaceutical industry in this country -- by
prohibiting certain language in advertising IN THIS COUNTRY makes it
universally rejected?

Do you not see beyond this country?  If that is true, I am sorry for
you because it is this country that is #1 in cancer, obesity, diabetes,
chronic fatigue and other debilitating illnesses.

That's for a reason.

While searching for that reason, I suggest you look directly at the
FDA, the pigs.

> > On August 26, 1998, the Attorneys General of Arizona, California, New
> > Jersey, and Texas announced a multi-state settlement with Morinda, Inc., a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Interesting.  I didn't know that.... and here I thought it was "PROVEN" :-)
centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:24 GMT
They were sued because anything stated to "cure" something MUST then be
classified as a drug. That is the nature of the FOOD   OR    DRUG
administration.

In a manner to avoid their obscene regulatory practices, one often
says:  "May prevent" or "has been shown to PREVENT" as opposed to
"Cure."

Meanwhile, there is criminal evidence compiled in a class action suit
against these regulatory authorities that now frees just about anybody
up when one might want to say anything they damned well please.

For example:

"CURE, CURE, CURE, CURE, CURE THE MEAT!  THEY HAVE A CURE!!  THEY KNOW
HOW TO CURE!  THEY STOPPED CURING A HUNDRED YEARS AGO AND NOW ONLY
TREEEAAATTT."

CURE THE MEAT.

> On August 26, 1998, the Attorneys General of Arizona, California, New
> Jersey, and Texas announced a multi-state settlement with Morinda, Inc., a
[quoted text clipped - 117 lines]
> >>> >>
> >>> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
MAS - 11 Jun 2006 20:35 GMT
Oh please ..... Care to cite with specificity?

<Meanwhile, there is criminal evidence compiled in a class action suit
against these regulatory authorities that now frees just about anybody up
when one might want to say anything they damned well please.>

<The FDA are nothing but a bunch of crooked farm boys>

Or, will you continue to rant with vulgar language?

> They were sued because anything stated to "cure" something MUST then be
> classified as a drug. That is the nature of the FOOD   OR    DRUG
[quoted text clipped - 163 lines]
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
MAS - 08 Jun 2006 04:52 GMT
May 6, 2002

CERTIFIED MAIL
RETURN RECEIPT REQUESTED

Noni Juice Sales
Post Office Box 55
West Barnstable, Massachusetts 02668

Ref. No. CL-02-HFS-810-15

Dear Sir or Madam:

This is to advise you that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has
reviewed your web site at the Internet address: http://www.4-nonijuice.com 
and has determined that the product "Noni Juice" being offered is promoted
for conditions that cause the product to be a drug under section 201(g)(1)
of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act) [21 USC 321(g)(1)].
The therapeutic claims on your web site establish that the product is a drug
because it is intended for use in the cure, mitigation, treatment, or
prevention of disease. The continued marketing of this product with these
claims violates the Act and may subject you or the product to regulatory
action without further notice.

Examples of some of the claims observed on your web site include:

 "Primary benefits of Noni Juice include: helps lower high blood
pressure … acts as anti-inflammatory and anti-histaminic agent, alleviates
pain, can help protect against digestive problems, inhibits precancer
function and growth of cancer tumors!"

 "After 3 weeks of being on the Noni Juice, I find that my heart is beating
normally, my cholesterol level is in the normal range, arthritis in my right
foot is gone, I am no longer impotent (a ten-year side-effect of the heart
medications)."

Furthermore, FDA has no information that your product is generally
recognized as safe and effective for the above referenced conditions and
therefore, the product may also be a "new drug" under section 201 (p) of the
Act [21 USC 321(p)]. New drugs may not be legally marketed in the U.S.
without prior approval from FDA as described in section 505 (a) of the Act
[21 USC 355(a)]. FDA approves a new drug on the basis of scientific data
submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate that the drug is safe and
effective.

FDA is aware that Internet distributors may not know that the products they
offer are regulated as drugs or that these drugs are not in compliance with
the law. Many of these products may be legally marketed as dietary
supplements or as cosmetics if therapeutic claims are removed from the
promotional materials and the products otherwise comply with all applicable
provisions of the Act and FDA regulations.

Under the Act, as amended by the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act
(DSHEA), dietary supplements may be legally marketed with truthful and
non-misleading claims to affect the structure or function of the body
(structure/function claims), if certain conditions are met. However, claims
that dietary supplements are intended to prevent, diagnose, mitigate, treat,
or cure disease (disease claims), excepting health claims authorized for use
by FDA, cause the products to be drugs. The intended use of a product may be
established through product labels and labeling, catalogs, brochures, audio
and videotapes, Internet sites, or other circumstances surrounding the
distribution of the product. FDA has published a final rule intended to
clarify the distinction between structure/function claims and disease
claims. This document is available on the Internet at
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~lrd/fr000106.html (codified at 21 C.F.R.
101.93(g)).

In addition, only products that are intended for ingestion may be lawfully
marketed as dietary supplements. Topical products and products intended to
enter into the body directly through the skin or mucosal tissues, such as
transdermal or sublingual products, are not dietary supplements. For these
products, both disease and structure/function claims may cause them to be
new drugs.

Certain over-the-counter drugs are not new drugs and may be legally marketed
without prior approval from FDA. Additional information is available in
Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (21 CFR) Parts 310 and 330-358,
which contain FDA's regulations on over-the-counter drugs.

This letter is not intended to be an all-inclusive review of your web site
and products your firm may market. It is your responsibility to ensure that
all products marketed by your firm are in compliance with the Act and its
implementing regulations.

If you need additional information or have questions concerning any products
distributed through your web site, please contact FDA. You may reach FDA
electronically (e-mail) at APaeng@CFSAN.FDA.GOV, or you may respond in
writing to Andrew H. Paeng, Compliance Officer, Food and Drug
Administration, Division of Compliance and Enforcement, ONPLDS, 5100 Paint
Branch Parkway, College Park, Maryland 20740-3835. If you have any questions
concerning any issue in this letter, please contact Mr. Paeng at (301)
436-2375.

Sincerely yours,

/s/

John B. Foret Director
Division of Compliance and Enforcement
Office of Nutritional Products, Labeling and Dietary Supplements
Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition

> Awwwwe heck. It's over and I have not had the opportunity to weigh in.
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>>> >>
>>> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:33 GMT
The FDA are nothing but a bunch of crooked farm boys advocating on
behalf of aspartame while allowing benzene in the vegetable oils (many
of their personal constituents produce), oil flavored perfumes as
additive in these same rancid oils (the oil flavored perfumes produced
in a factory just out of new jersey), soda, milk and etc..

Their best argument in their own defense is:  "Yes, well -- we know
aspartame is contaminated with carcinogens.  However, that does not
mean the root substance is carcinogenic.  Therefore, it will remain a
product on the market classified as "safe."

This loophole in the law, right here ... allows for it.

Really.

Wake up call.

> May 6, 2002
>
[quoted text clipped - 215 lines]
> `
> end
MAS - 08 Jun 2006 04:54 GMT
And I haven't fired the broadside yet........
:)

Keep defending sweetheart........

> Awwwwe heck. It's over and I have not had the opportunity to weigh in.
>
[quoted text clipped - 93 lines]
>>> >>
>>> >> To paraphrase Fermi's Paradox for UFO's:  "So where are they?"
I.P. Freely - 06 Jun 2006 23:06 GMT
>> There are lots of well-intentioned, sincere people out there with no
>> financial interest in their position who are never the less engaging in
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> are making a choice to ride the cancer tiger out to its inevitable end.
>  I think that is pretty well established.  

Alternative medicine is absolutely fine as long as it causes no direct
harm. Personally, I haven't had a slice of bacon in decades, I eat
walnuts and flax seed oil, and I make sure I always walk on my wife's
left side, and my PSA has remained virtually unmeasurable AND I have
seen no pink elephants.

That's a fact; the following is hearsay: I heard there was a guy who ate
nothing but bark and the New York Times and his PSA never exceeded 2.
His G10 prostate erupted from his abdomen last year and he died of lung
mets, but at least the bark suppressed his PSA to the end and he put the
NYT to a fitting use.

But advocating alt med INSTEAD of such things as surgery, radiation,
ADT, chemo, CTs, MRIs, biopsies, active surveillance . . . i.e. western
medicine in general (from some of her other internet posts) . . . is
blatant nonsense and -- I repeat -- an insult to many of the people in
this forum, let alone the whole field of oncology.

Let's see . . . 49 years old, lumpy DRE, serious tennis player, Dad w/PC
. . . what's it gonna be -- noni juice and skipping through La La Land
w/no surveillance or surveillance, biopsy, and radiation or surgery if
and when justified by biopsy?

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 06 Jun 2006 23:58 GMT
> Steve, I'm curious as to what your criteria would be for "legitimate".

Hmmmmmmmmmm.  Good question.

Maybe I should have said "serious".  Or ...  shoot, I don't know.

I was trying to imply a person who seriously selects natural medicines over
proven treatments for the cure of cancers, HIV, et al.  Martin Howard was
the last who impressed me as being serious about having cancer and being
serious about curing it without modern medical procedures.  And now, he's
seriously dead.
Skids - 08 Jun 2006 02:41 GMT
>"(has been shown to kill the HIV, by the way),"

right

>I use an Ultimate Zapper, a combination of a number of herbs, coconut
> oil (has been shown to kill the HIV, by the way), food grade
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>> PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
>> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:21 GMT
It has, a.shole.  Finish your research before you're quick to open your
mouth.  Contact the NIH and the CDC for yourself.  Learn what some of
those chemo drugs are and where they are derived.  Or, is that level of
exertion too much for you.  Without checking, at least two
chemo/pharmaceutical agents are derived from the coconut.  Possibly
more.

Truth kill brain cells?  Is that it?  Does it blow your mind when
coming to understand that the art and science of medicine has all to do
with plants, fruits and vegetables and just how they go about
extracting an element in those things that serve to heal?

Perhaps you assume everything we lay eyes on in life mysteriously
appears out of thin air without having first manipulated some other
element.

> >"(has been shown to kill the HIV, by the way),"
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> >> PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
> >> Non Illegitimi Carborundum
Alan Meyer - 05 Jun 2006 04:01 GMT
> It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  I
> wonder how much you know about alternative medicine and have you read
> the publications regarding the use of saw palmetto throughout the
> cancer treatment process?

Aggressive treatment is often the best approach.

To the best of my knowledge, saw palmetto has zero effect
on cancer.  It is used to treat prostatitis, not prostate cancer.
Those two problems are entirely different.

If you have seen some scientific study showing that saw
palmetto is useful in cancer treatment, please post a citation
for it.

Thanks.

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 05 Jun 2006 11:32 GMT
> Aggressive treatment is often the best approach.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> palmetto is useful in cancer treatment, please post a citation
> for it.

Just for the newbies and lurkers here, there are some studies and some show
a definite reduction in PSA when using saw palmetto.  However, PSA is not
PCa and when further looking into it, they found that PSA was artificially
reduced while the cancer continued unabated.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

centitalensa@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 01:58 GMT
Do you know what Parasite Chemotherapy is?

What cancer is, for that matter? And yes, I am familiar with the
popular ideas of what cancer is.  However, I am asking:  Do you know
what it really is? (Emphasis added)

Chemotherapy (as it's often called) is truly "Parasite Chemotherapy."
The drugs used  in chemotherapy are the same as what are used to kill
worms in dogs.  Helminths.

Saw Palmetto does oh so much more than treat prostatitis (and
interesting condition, within itself). So much, and in combination with
a number of other antihelmintic agents, natural agents -- a lot of
times no more aggressive than, let's say -- a green leafy vegetable --
you are able to kill these helmintic parasites responsible for causing
the cancer in the first place.

The problem with western medicine is that they no longer treat man for
helminths.  In America, especially. These heminths are left untreated
until they proliferate while causing conditions such as cancer.  When
treating with the traditional, aggressive chemotherapy agents, one then
must contend the "die off" effect.  The nausea, the vomiting, the
wasting, etc..  When these helminths are dying off, they release all
sorts of blood toxins. Ammonia, for example and then one must contend
aggressive detox of these agents on top of the aggressive treatment of
the cancer.  Something that is often overlooked until the kidneys are
damaged and dialysis is employed.

I suggest you google search "Parasite Chemotherapy" and come to know
exactly what is being treated when cancer is diagnosed and treated at
all.  Also, google search "cancer and parasites."  It may become a
saving grace.

Meanwhile, the counties with very small incidence of cancer (Asia,
Europe in comparison to America) are consistently treating their
patients with antihelmintic agents, all throughout their lives.  Just
as one would treat their dog for parasites on a monthly basis. Long
ago, before cancer became so common throughout this country, they
treated for heminths on an every six month or yearly basis.  Hence our
six month check up, yearly physical exam.  Those treatment cycles had
been employed for so long, it became common to be seen by a doctor at
those times.  Suddenly, they stopped treating in this country and the
focus here became more about the "study" of cancer as opposed to the
prevention of it.

Now, there are studies regarding the health benefits of saw palmetto
and this is a plant that is not soley for use by men.  It benefits men
and women, alike.  I take it.

I'll be in touch when I have more time to grant to hunting these
studies down.  I've read them recently.  Yet, unfortunately, did not
bookmark them.

Cheers,
Leah

> > It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  I
> > wonder how much you know about alternative medicine and have you read
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>     Alan
Skids - 08 Jun 2006 02:39 GMT
The only thing I've ever seen alternative medicine do is fool people into
thinking they getting some kind of benefit from it, when reality they are
being duped.

> It's true, aggressive treatment of cancer is never a good idea.  I
> wonder how much you know about alternative medicine and have you read
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>>
>> Robbie
centitalensa@gmail.com - 11 Jun 2006 04:28 GMT
You have not studied both traditional and alternative medicine, then.

Let's call it:  "New kinds of food" if that works better.

What is wrong with cooking with coconut oil or eating a hell of a lot
more garlic.  Eat something and have it not be a pepperoni pizza.  Have
it be a rosemary saturated and cilantro soup.

Cilantro chelates mercury.  It chelates it.  A plant. How easy and
affordable is that in comparison to the american practitioners:  "Well,
hmmmmm.  How'd that happen." and "Well, there's not much we are able to
do for that.  Here's an experimental treatment, let's hope it doesn't
damage your liver."

> The only thing I've ever seen alternative medicine do is fool people into
> thinking they getting some kind of benefit from it, when reality they are
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> >>
> >> Robbie
Bob Anthony - 12 Jun 2006 00:40 GMT
Leah:

I would like to respectfully ask:

1) Do you have cancer?
2) What kind is it and where is it if you unfortunately do?
3) For how long have you had it if your answer is yes?
4) Exactly what are you doing for it specifically?
5) Are you in remission or is the cancer gone? (Or not).
6) And if in remission or if the cancer is thankfully gone, what
specifically do you attribute it to by the actions taken by you?

I am coming in late here, and I mean no disrespect to you. I just want
you to clarify. Sorry if I missed something that was already stated in
the prior threads. Thanks in advance for your response.

B.A.
Bob Anthony - 14 Jun 2006 21:01 GMT
I'll just reply to myself then....
I guess she took the proverbial Irish shalalee shalacking here. Oh well.

B.A.