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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / May 2006

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NEJM re: da Vinci procedure

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Steve Jordan - 18 May 2006 00:46 GMT
The May 18 online issue of the New England Journal of Medicine includes
an article on the miscalled "robotic surgery," entitled "Robotic Surgery
-- Squeezing into Tight Places."

The full text of the article is free, but one must register, which is
not an onerous task.

Prostate surgery is mentioned as quoted below. "Krummel" is Thomas M.
Krummel, M.D., chair of the Department of Surgery at Stanford University
School of Medicine.

"Tight places, like minuscule ones, seem to cry out for robot-assisted
surgery. Doing an open retropubic prostatectomy, for example, means that
"you are operating in a deep, dark hole," Krummel says. So it is not
surprising that robot-assisted prostatectomy is taking off in the United
States. Mani Menon, M.D., of Detroit's Vattikuti Urology Institute, has
performed more than 1000 such prostatectomies. The robot-assisted
procedure is associated with lower rates of postoperative impotence and
incontinence than the open procedure, says Menon, because the robot
makes it considerably easier to spare nerves and to anastomose the
urethra. Moreover, Menon believes that it permits more complete
extirpation of malignant tissue."

(As I did not undergo a prostatectomy of any kind, I do not have a dog
in the fight over what's best)

Now I will once more launch a rant about calling the procedure "robotic"
or "robot-assisted." There is nothing about it that is robotic. A robot
is a mechanical device that performs according to its programming and
without human intervention.

The mechanism is a *waldo*.

Such devices were a feature of a short novel written in the 1940's --
yes in the prehistory of 66+ years ago -- by Robert A. Heinlein. It is
entitled _Waldo_ after the prime character, Waldo Farthingwaite-Jones,
who suffers from myasthenia gravis and finds an ingenious way to
manipulate objects that in his own person he cannot. One of the many
manifestations of his ability is the fact that he becomes a microsurgeon.

Initially, he is an arrogant, insufferable jerk, but reforms. It is an
interesting story, especially now that the premise has come true.

Finally, so far as I know, the manufacturers of the daVinci equipment do
not mention robots anywhere in their literature. I do wonder about the
source of the error. I suspect that it is some ignorant journalist who
was seeking a simple and short means of describing the procedure, never
mind that it is nonsense.

Oh BTW, Heinlein invented the waterbed.

Rant over.

Regards,

Steve J

"Think what tedious years of study, thought, practice, experience went
to the equipment of that peerless old master who was able to impose upon
the whole world the lofty and sounding maxim that 'truth is mighty and
will prevail' -- the most majestic compound fracture of fact which any
of woman born has yet achieved. For the history of our race and each
individual's experience are sown thick with evidence that a truth is not
hard to kill, and a lie told well is immortal."
-- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"
John Loomis - 18 May 2006 02:33 GMT
Hello Steve,
   If I were on a ship say, and headed into the Atlantic Ocean, I would
depend on all the modern intervention, Radar, GPS, Loran, and the Captain.
   When a problem arises, and the ship rolls, and the power fails, we still
have the captain.
   If he is a good captain, he could re-direct the crew to right the ship,
get power back on board.  Then continue with the voyage.
   Now, If I were a patient, and wanted RP, and asked for Robotic Surgery,
I would hope a good Surgeon was there to help with any unknowns, and
re-direct the robot......
I wonder who runs who.
Dr. Brooks @ Stanford feels that he can see more, address issues as they
arise, and correct or repair.  He rather use Dr. specific skills, rather
than Robotic.
Who is running the show?
Robot or Dr.
Brave new World........
John Loomis
By the way the Robot may say that the patient is too far gone, and push
"delete"   Hum.......

> The May 18 online issue of the New England Journal of Medicine includes an
> article on the miscalled "robotic surgery," entitled "Robotic Surgery --  
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> and a lie told well is immortal."
> -- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"
Naaman - 18 May 2006 04:06 GMT
> The May 18 online issue of the New England Journal of Medicine includes
> an article on the miscalled "robotic surgery," entitled "Robotic Surgery
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> hard to kill, and a lie told well is immortal."
> -- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"

I attended my first support group, in Tucson, a couple of weeks ago, and
the speaker was a young--well, relatively--doctor who is now using the
da Vinci method. I was interested and intrigued by his presentation,
enough so that I want to find out more. Although it is apparently being
used only at University Physicians Healthcare Hospital in Tucson, the
presenter said it is being used more widely in Phoenix.

Naaman
Glowing in the Dark - 18 May 2006 11:40 GMT
[snip]

> Now I will once more launch a rant about calling the procedure "robotic"
> or "robot-assisted." There is nothing about it that is robotic. A robot
> is a mechanical device that performs according to its programming and
> without human intervention.
>
> The mechanism is a *waldo*.

[snip]

I wish I had the luxury of worrying about things like this :-)

Signature

Glowing in the Dark

KenA - 19 May 2006 04:39 GMT
As someone who had a LRRP on 12/27/05, I'd say (compared to the postings I've seen
here with LRP's), there are clear benefits to LRRP during the weeks just after the
procedure. The shorter recovery time enabled me to continue with Graduate School. I
resumed classes about 10 days after surgery, otherwise I would have had to take a
medical leave and delay my graduation for a year. I have 5 incisions (4 are about
0.5-0.75 inches, and my 'navel' one about 1.5-2.0 inches as the prostate 'exit
port'). After the initial recovery period, there's probably little difference in long
term recovery. However, I did like the fact that everything is significantly
magnified for the surgeon, so he can see more detail (and hopefully) do a better job
(especially at nerve sparing). Currently, both are the same cost. As always,
experience, experience, experience with any technique has a huge influence on
outcomes.

Oh, it seems robots come in two 'flavors' - one under human control and one under
computer control -  from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot
"A robot is a mechanical device that can perform preprogrammed physical tasks. A
robot may act under the direct control of a human (eg. the robotic arm of the space
shuttle) or autonomously under the control of a pre-programmed computer."

KenA
=====
> The May 18 online issue of the New England Journal of Medicine includes an article
> on the miscalled "robotic surgery," entitled "Robotic Surgery -- Squeezing into
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> evidence that a truth is not hard to kill, and a lie told well is immortal."
> -- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"
KenA - 19 May 2006 04:55 GMT
As someone who had a LRRP on 12/27/05, I'd say (compared to the postings I've seen
here with LRP's), there are clear benefits to LRRP during the weeks just after the
procedure. The shorter recovery time enabled me to continue with Graduate School. I
resumed classes about 10 days after surgery, otherwise I would have had to take a
medical leave and delay my graduation for a year. I have 5 incisions (4 are about
0.5-0.75 inches, and my 'navel' one about 1.5-2.0 inches as the prostate 'exit
port'). After the initial recovery period, there's probably little difference in long
term recovery. However, I did like the fact that everything is significantly
magnified for the surgeon, so he can see more detail (and hopefully) do a better job
(especially at nerve sparing). Currently, both are the same cost. As always,
experience, experience, experience with any technique has a huge influence on
outcomes.

Oh, it seems robots come in two 'flavors' - one under human control and one under
computer control -  from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot
"A robot is a mechanical device that can perform preprogrammed physical tasks. A
robot may act under the direct control of a human (eg. the robotic arm of the space
shuttle) or autonomously under the control of a pre-programmed computer."

KenA
=====
> The May 18 online issue of the New England Journal of Medicine includes an article
> on the miscalled "robotic surgery," entitled "Robotic Surgery -- Squeezing into
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> evidence that a truth is not hard to kill, and a lie told well is immortal."
> -- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"
Peter Headland - 19 May 2006 18:20 GMT
> there are clear benefits to LRRP ... shorter recovery

As someone who had a conventional RRP, I can tell you that after three
weeks I was able to travel on business (by air) and generally resume
work. So the recovery time benefit is not so great as you appear to
imagine for a relatively young (48) and fit patient.

Signature

Peter Headland

KenA - 20 May 2006 22:15 GMT
Hi Peter,
I only had 10 days post-surgery available for sufficient recovery before the academic
quarter started again, so for me, every single day that shortened post-op recovery
counted. Also being older at 54 was a slight disadvantage as well. Those who do not
have as pressing a need for minimizing the initial recovery period may not feel LRRP
to be needed. For me, academically I could not afford to miss even 3 weeks of class.
As always, YMMV.
KenA
=====
>> there are clear benefits to LRRP ... shorter recovery
>
> As someone who had a conventional RRP, I can tell you that after three
> weeks I was able to travel on business (by air) and generally resume
> work. So the recovery time benefit is not so great as you appear to
> imagine for a relatively young (48) and fit patient.
judamd@aol.com - 24 May 2006 20:44 GMT
Steve, your rant is justified.  There are things like this that bother
me too like people who say "I could care less" when they mean "I
couldn't care less".  As for the robot business, there is absolutely no
difference between a LRP and a da Vinci LRP except that in the first
case the surgeon manipulates the tools directly while standing over the
patient and in the second case the surgeon manipulates the same.tools
while sitting at a console and turns wheels and pushes levers, kind of
like a video game.  No robot involved at all.  Both methods have the
magnified view, blah, blah.

Keep up the good fight but the battle's probably lost.
Dave Perry

> The May 18 online issue of the New England Journal of Medicine includes
> an article on the miscalled "robotic surgery," entitled "Robotic Surgery
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
> hard to kill, and a lie told well is immortal."
> -- Mark Twain, "Advice to Youth"
Steve Jordan - 24 May 2006 21:37 GMT
On May 24, Dave Perry replied to my rant about misuse of the word "robot":
> Steve, your rant is justified.  
(snip)

Thanks!
> Keep up the good fight but the battle's probably lost.
>  
Like Dave, slovenly use of language drives me bonkers, especially when
the (mis)user seems proud of it.

BTW: someone upthread cited Wikipedia for the proposition that the
definition of "robot" includes this: "A robot may act under the direct
control of a human (eg. the robotic arm of the space shuttle) or
autonomously under the control of a pre-programmed computer." Half
right, half wrong.

If that poster had taken one more step and looked up "waldo,", he would
have found, "In the modern sense, a waldo is a remote manipulator.
Modern waldoes may have direct mechanical linkages or be teleoperated as
the originals in the story were."

Lastly, I do not consider Wikipedia to be a reliable scholarly source
for much of anything. As quoted below from the website, anyone, whether
knowledgeable or not, can change an entry. Not my cuppa tea, thanks.

"Wikipedia is a global and multilingual Web-based cooperative
free-content encyclopedia. It exists as a wiki, a type of website that
allows visitors to edit its content; the word Wikipedia itself is a
portmanteau of wiki and encyclopedia and is often abbreviated to WP by
its users. Wikipedia is written collaboratively by volunteers, allowing
most articles to be changed by anyone with access to a computer, web
browser and Internet connection."

Well, this is more interesting than taking political potshots. Been
there, done that, bored with it.

Regards,

Steve J

"Men occasionally stumble on the truth, but most of them pick themselves
up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."
-- Sir Winston L. S. Churchill
Bob Anthony - 25 May 2006 23:36 GMT
What can I say about the semantics of the use of the word "robot"? It
uses software like a robot would. Maybe a compu-pseudo robot? Or maybe
we can just call it Vin for short, or Vinny the compu-pseudo politically
correct robot. ;)
More importantly is the new uses of the DaVinci procedure for a host of
medical procedures. Heart bypass surgery, hysterectomy for cervical
cancer, myomectomy treatment of uterine fibroids, prostate cancer,
kidney removal, and other "robotic" procedures are now offered at more
and more of the best medical centers in the USA. Appears that Vinny is
gaining ground on and perhaps will surpass conventional operations on
the above mentioned maladies. Regular laparoscopic procedures will
possibly become obsolete. Progress maybe? I hope so. At least until gene
therapy. And I can't wait for Gene!

(Disclaimer: The above post was written tongue-in-cheek.)

B.A.
DonC - 25 May 2006 23:47 GMT
> What can I say about the semantics of the use of the word "robot"? It uses
> software like a robot would. Maybe a compu-pseudo robot? Or maybe we can
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> B.A.

Where's Waldo?? Seriously, I remember a post claiming it was a Waldo device.
Don't ask me to explain ; )
Steve Jordan - 26 May 2006 00:43 GMT
> What can I say about the semantics of the use of the word "robot"? It
> uses software like a robot would. Maybe a compu-pseudo robot? Or maybe
> we can just call it Vin for short, or Vinny the compu-pseudo
> politically correct robot. ;)
(snip)
> At least until gene therapy. And I can't wait for Gene!
>
> (Disclaimer: The above post was written tongue-in-cheek.)
I thunk I noticed a cheeky bump ;-)

Regards,

Steve J, somewhat bonkers

"Well, I've wrestled with reality for thirty-five years, Doctor, and I'm
happy to state I finally won out over it."
-- James Stewart as Elwood P. Dowd in "Harvey"
Alan Meyer - 26 May 2006 01:56 GMT
> ...
> Now I will once more launch a rant about calling the procedure "robotic"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The mechanism is a *waldo*.
> ...

In the strict sense of the word, I believe all of the radiation I had
was more truly "robotic" than the daVinci LRP.

For the HDR brachytherapy, I am told that the actual placement
of the radioactive seeds in the treatment catheters was done by
a robot in a room with no people (the radiation dose was too high
for medical staff - who would be exposed to it repeatedly, once
for each patient) under computer control.

Similarly, I think the EBRT is done under program control.  The
radiation oncologist and radiologists map out the target areas,
then feed them into a computer.  The computer then controls
the synchrotron movement and firing to deliver the x-rays.

    Alan

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