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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2006

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Good news from an HT patient

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Alan Meyer - 27 Mar 2006 06:02 GMT
I like to hear stories of treatment that went well, so I'll share
one for others.

I reported here some time ago about a friend of mine who
had a PSA test and it came back 300.  He was sent to various
doctors and it eventually hit 500.  He's 69 years old.

They put him on HT.  I saw him two months ago and his PSA
was down to 6.

I saw him again Friday night.  His PSA was down to 0.3.  He
looked and felt good.  He said he got hot flashes, but he
considered them to be of no consequence at all.

I think someone here reported a study that showed that the
lower your PSA goes on HT, the longer lasting your response
is likely to be.  It's looking like this fine fellow hit the jackpot.

   Alan
Tom Cular - 27 Mar 2006 13:13 GMT
Alan,

That sounds great, if hot flashes are the only side effect he experiences he
may not have hit a home run, but he sure got a triple. My best wishes to
your friend.

Tom
>I like to hear stories of treatment that went well, so I'll share
> one for others.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>    Alan
Heather - 27 Mar 2006 19:57 GMT
Thanks for sharing that, Alan.  And I will add Ron's experience with ADT
over the past year plus.  His PSA was shooting up dramatically and went
from 12.89 to over 24 in 2 months.

So he started Casodex, then Zoladex.  First PSA after that was
0.05....the lowest the lab measures out here.  He has continued with
0.02 on the ultra sensitive test.  So in 3 months, it stopped its
dramatic rise and reverted to undetectible.  He really had no problem
with a few night sweats....they disappeared with Megace.  He stopped
that in the Fall and has had none at all since then.

However, the side effects which allegedly hit by 3 months, took about 7
months to kick in.  Weak legs, zero energy, etc.  It got so bad by this
past November that he decided to go with the Intermittent ADT.  His last
shot would have been due Feb. 8th.

The difference is just amazing!!

At Xmas, he had trouble walking 20 feet.  He looked like Tim Conway
doing his "old man" routine.  He had ZERO energy.  Now you can see the
changes literally every 2 days.  At the moment he is out in the garage
messing with his cars and putting away the snowblower, etc.

I prefer to stay with positive thinking and we will just enjoy his
regained strength and good humour for as long as it lasts.  If the PSA
starts rising again, well you know what the answer is on that one.

And I particularly like what you say in your last paragraph.  I hope
that it rings true for him as well.

Cheers....Ron and Heather

>I like to hear stories of treatment that went well, so I'll share
> one for others.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>    Alan
Alan Meyer - 27 Mar 2006 20:48 GMT
> Thanks for sharing that, Alan.  And I will add Ron's experience with ADT over the past
> year plus.  His PSA was shooting up dramatically and went from 12.89 to over 24 in 2
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Cheers....Ron and Heather

That sounds great Heather.  I was thinking of Ron in connection with
all this.  Ron has about as good a response to HT as anyone I've
heard about.

If I remember correctly, the hormone therapy practiced by Bob Leibowitz
that Ed Friedman often speaks well of in this newsgroup is an intermittent
therapy involving a period on triple ADT followed by (IIRC) finasteride
alone.  I think the theory is that the finasteride maintains the low PSA
without the big side effects of Lupron.

I don't know if any of this applies to Ron, but if you think so, you
might want to ask your doctor about it.

Best wishes.

   Alan
Ed Friedman - 28 Mar 2006 00:09 GMT
> If I remember correctly, the hormone therapy practiced by Bob Leibowitz
> that Ed Friedman often speaks well of in this newsgroup is an intermittent
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>     Alan

Alan,

You are correct for the most part.  Officially, Dr. Leibowitz just uses
finasteride(F), after ADT.  However, many of his patients go with a
combination of high T (1500-3500) plus F (or Avodart) after ADT.  Dr.
Leibowitz observed that when T gets above 1500 (with low DHT), the PSA
of most patients tends to decline.  A recent article at:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/112221624/ABSTRACT

shows that high T plus F after ADT is ~5 times more effective than ADT
alone, using mice with grafts of the human prostate cancer cell line
LNCaP.  Obviously, further work is needed with other cell lines as well
as with actual patients.  It would be great if they could determine the
minimum level of T at which apoptosis starts to occur, as well as the
maximum level, above which no further apoptosis occurs.

My own model predicts that high T plus F plus Casodex after ADT should
be even more effective, but I'm not sure what the side effects would be.
High T plus F not only has no side effects, it has a huge number of
incredible benefits (think the opposite of all that happens under ADT).
 Of course, whenever T increases, you have to monitor your estradiol
level and use the appropriate amount of Arimidex to keep it in range.

Ed Friedman
Alan Meyer - 28 Mar 2006 17:31 GMT
Ed,

According to your model, would finasteride alone, without
injecting testosterone (but there will be some when the Lupron
wears off) be beneficial to the patient?

Another question:

I recall that Dr. Leibowitz was treating patients who had local
disease only.  I don't remember if they had prior treatment with
surgery or radiation.

Ron Figueroa had the beginnings of metastatic disease after
failing radiation treatment.  He went on HT and had an
outstanding response, with PSA dropping from 24 to .02,
but also had debilitating side effects.

According to your model, is this a different situation, or would
the same hormone therapy still apply?

It is understood here, of course, that you are not a doctor and
not prescribing treatment for anyone - just offering a theoretical
opinion which Heather and Ron might use in consulting with
their doctor.

Thanks.

   Alan
Ed Friedman - 28 Mar 2006 18:35 GMT
> Ed,
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
>     Alan

Alan,

Dr. Leibowitz has treated patients at all stages, as well as patients
who had all sorts of previous treatment before seeing him.  His
published work was just on early stage, but on his website you will see
references to other types of patients.

F alone will have some benefit, but only if a sufficiently high
threshold of T is present.  The article I referenced in my previous post
showed that F alone with no T had no real benefit, whereas F with the
amount of T that they used was ~5 times more effective compared to
continual ADT.  This research is all very new, and nobody has yet
determined (when you are using F) the minimum amount of T necessary to
achieve apoptosis is, what the optimal amount of T is, or what the
maximum amount of T is, above which no further apoptosis occurs.

However, just as pure guesswork, I would say that men with a level of T
of at least 500 should definitely benefit from F alone, at least to slow
down the rate at which the PCa population doubles.  However, you also
have to watch your diet to avoid foods like soy and flaxseed (see my
paper for why this is necessary). The higher the level of  T, the longer
it should take to double, until you reach the minimum level of T at
which apoptosis occurs at a faster rate than growth does.

According to my model, the hormone therapy applies to all stages of PCa,
no matter what the prior treatment.  The only problems to watch out for
are when rare mutations occur, which can make this particular therapy
harmful, instead of beneficial.  If one could only know the exact
genetic makeup of the PCa within someone, then you could tailor the
hormone treatment to be optimal for that particular PCa.  However, in
the case of high T plus F, problems would arise if you have a mutated
iAR that binds T as tightly as it does DHT, or any mutations that impair
the ability of mAR to produce apoptotic proteins, but not bcl-2.

In terms of talking to doctors, they might be more receptive to the idea
of high T with F plus casodex, instead of just F.  Since most doctors
have no idea that mAR exists, they will assume that the T does nothing
since the only androgen receptor that they are aware of will be blocked
by the casodex and further be protected by the lack of DHT caused by
taking F.  However, for quality of life, high T plus F should be
superior, and showing your doctors that article I referred to in my
previous post might convince one of them to try it.

Ed Friedman
 
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