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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2006

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appraising the surgeon's skills?

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rosbif - 20 Mar 2006 08:57 GMT
Still in a dither about which Tx to opt for though my 'eligibility'
for surgery is pulling me that way .  Of course most contributors here
are from the US so I guess this will be hard to answer for me in the
UK, but I wonder how proactive patients are in seeking out the most
skilled?   How does one go about it?
Leonard Evens - 20 Mar 2006 16:12 GMT
> Still in a dither about which Tx to opt for though my 'eligibility'
> for surgery is pulling me that way .  Of course most contributors here
> are from the US so I guess this will be hard to answer for me in the
> UK, but I wonder how proactive patients are in seeking out the most
> skilled?   How does one go about it?

Despite the supposed freedom to choose one's own doctor, few of us in
the US are entirely free to choose a surgeon.   Usually our health
insurance plans restrict us to certain preferred providers.  Also, even
if there were no such restrictions, common sense suggests that the very
best surgeons can handle only a limited number of cases.   The first
thing is to check the surgeons qualifications by seeing where he did his
training.  Also, ask him how many such procedures he has done and how
often he does them.  Similarly for the hospital where the procedure will
be performed.  Also, ask about typical results for a patient like
yourself with respect to recurrence rates and side effects.  In the US,
you can call one of the centers such as those at Johns Hopkins or Sloan
Kettering and ask for a reference to a local surgeon.  Walsh in his
Guide to Surviving Prostate Cancer gives a list of questions to pose to
a potential surgeon.

Keep in mind that it is the skill of the particular surgeon that counts,
not whether or not he is famous.  But you can compare the results your
surgeons reports with that from the best surgeons.   For example, in a
man under 60, the best surgeons can preserve potency in 80 percent or
more of their patients.  If your surgeon has a success rate of 40
percent for such men, he is clearly not proficient in that aspect of the
procedure.  On the other  hand, even the very best surgeons have little
luck preserving potency in men over 70.

My case might be instructive.  I just went to the urologist my primary
care physician referred me to, and it turned out he has one of the
better reputations in the area. At the time I considered trying to have
the surgery done at Hopkins by Dr. Walsh or one of his colleagues,
paying for it myself, but I decided the chances of a cure in my case
would not be significantly different and the chances of avoiding
impotence at age 66 not enough higher to justify the cost.  My surgeon
certainly seemed to have done well with me, so I have no regrets.

At the time, there weren't any "star" surgeons in the area, but since
then Dr. William Catalona has moved to Northwestern in Chicago, and at
least one man posting here has used him.  Paradoxically, were I deciding
today,  I probably would still not be able to use Dr. Catalona unless I
wanted to pay for the procedure myself because his medical group doesn't
accept my particular health plan, which is one of the largest in
Illinois.   And, both Dr. Catalona and I are Northwestern faculty, he in
the Medical School and I in the College of Arts and Sciences.
colophony - 20 Mar 2006 17:57 GMT
LEONARD, when you say "I have no regrets" does it mean you recovered very
fast your sexual capabilities? If so, after how many months? Thanks
Colophony
>> Still in a dither about which Tx to opt for though my 'eligibility'
>> for surgery is pulling me that way .  Of course most contributors here
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> both Dr. Catalona and I are Northwestern faculty, he in the Medical School
> and I in the College of Arts and Sciences.
rosbif - 21 Mar 2006 13:42 GMT
>> Still in a dither about which Tx to opt for though my 'eligibility'
>> for surgery is pulling me that way .  Of course most contributors here
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>Keep in mind that it is the skill of the particular surgeon that counts,
>not whether or not he is famous.

The skill of course - in fact I'm allergic to celebrity.  In the UK
it's celebrity chefs we have in abundance - the only surgeons
achieving high public profile are usually either murderers or those
about to be struck off!  

>But you can compare the results your
>surgeons reports with that from the best surgeons.   For example, in a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>procedure.  On the other  hand, even the very best surgeons have little
>luck preserving potency in men over 70.

The consultant I saw, without actually putting a figure on it, was
pretty downbeat on the prospect of saving potency.  But I wonder if
you're not raising my expectation too high in mentioning the 80%?  I
note Scardino makes mention of some surgeons cherry picking their
patients to keep these figures high.

Does anyone have any sense of how the figures run for those who've
posted here and reported back about success/failure?

>My case might be instructive.  I just went to the urologist my primary
>care physician referred me to, and it turned out he has one of the
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Illinois.   And, both Dr. Catalona and I are Northwestern faculty, he in
>the Medical School and I in the College of Arts and Sciences.

It's as I feared - the US contingent here will be able to offer little
that's relevant to the UK situation but thank you for taking the
trouble to reply Leonard.  
RonL - 21 Mar 2006 18:59 GMT
Another idea, in case you haven't thought of it yet:  seek out local support
groups, either at meetings or through their websites.  Or if nothing
locally, check the websites for the larger ones in major cities.  Start
here:

http://www.ustoo.com/chapter_nearyou.asp

You'll find 3 numbers and 2 e-addresses for the UK.  Call/write them.  Make
contacts, and they may lead to referrals or recommendations.  I did this
with the NYC UsToo website, spoke with a wonderfully empathic fellow, and
got another endorsement of the surgeon/hospital I was contemplating.

Good wishes,  RonL

> It's as I feared - the US contingent here will be able to offer little
> that's relevant to the UK situation but thank you for taking the
> trouble to reply Leonard.
rosbif - 21 Mar 2006 20:59 GMT
>Another idea, in case you haven't thought of it yet:  seek out local support
>groups, either at meetings or through their websites.  Or if nothing
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Good wishes,  RonL

that's a useful lead - thanks.

>> It's as I feared - the US contingent here will be able to offer little
>> that's relevant to the UK situation but thank you for taking the
>> trouble to reply Leonard.
juniper - 22 Mar 2006 03:16 GMT
You know, there are other factors besides the surgeon's skill.
Depending on your PSA and biopsies, the surgeon may be thinking more
about your specific case than general numbers.  Still, the question is
does he or doesn't he have the skill to spare nerves if circumstances
warrant once surgery is in progress.  Our doctor told us first off "I
guarantee you will have erections."  Guess he wanted to get something
positive in there before we started talking about chances of sparing
nerves.  However, it also told us that he cared (or knew we cared)
about sex after.  So that was a plus.

rosbif, what is your situation as far as psa, biopsy, all that?

> The consultant I saw, without actually putting a figure on it, was
> pretty downbeat on the prospect of saving potency.  But I wonder if
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Does anyone have any sense of how the figures run for those who've
> posted here and reported back about success/failure?
rosbif - 23 Mar 2006 09:19 GMT
Hi juniper, I'm sorry to hear your news this morning...

>You know, there are other factors besides the surgeon's skill.
>Depending on your PSA and biopsies, the surgeon may be thinking more
>about your specific case than general numbers.

Yes, I see what you're saying, practiced instinct etc.

> Still, the question is
>does he or doesn't he have the skill to spare nerves if circumstances
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>rosbif, what is your situation as far as psa, biopsy, all that?

61 yrs, psa7, 3 of 10 cores gl(3+4) 30%,5%,5%

>> The consultant I saw, without actually putting a figure on it, was
>> pretty downbeat on the prospect of saving potency.  But I wonder if
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> Does anyone have any sense of how the figures run for those who've
>> posted here and reported back about success/failure?
juniper - 23 Mar 2006 14:20 GMT
> Yes, I see what you're saying, practiced instinct etc.

You ought to be able to assess *something*, though.

Flat-out ask him if he *ever* spares patient's nerves.

And if he says *yes*, ask what percent he spares both, what percent he
spares one.  I would guess it should be a hight percentage, help me out
here, guys.  I'm guessing 60%?  Our PSA was very different, 26.
RonL - 21 Mar 2006 13:33 GMT
Here's one thing I did.  I went to this page:

http://www.yananow.net/Experiences.html

scrolled to the surgery section, and actually clicked on each entry.  The
first paragraph in most cases tells you where the person lives, so you can
skip those not in UK.   I actually found 2 or 3 this way who either had
direct experience with a surgeon I was already contemplating, or who knew of
him.   Everyone I contacted was delighted to help.  Yes, it's tedious, but
you might find a precious lead this way.  Just a thought.  Good luck and
good health,

RonL

>....I guess this will be hard to answer for me in the
> UK, but I wonder how proactive patients are in seeking out the most
> skilled?   How does one go about it?
rosbif - 21 Mar 2006 13:44 GMT
>Here's one thing I did.  I went to this page:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>RonL

Cheers RonL - I'll this follow this through

>>....I guess this will be hard to answer for me in the
>> UK, but I wonder how proactive patients are in seeking out the most
>> skilled?   How does one go about it?
juniper - 22 Mar 2006 03:29 GMT
> him.   Everyone I contacted was delighted to help.  Yes, it's tedious, but
> you might find a precious lead this way.  Just a thought.  Good luck and

You need Firefox browser.  Use mouse gestures or super drag and go
extensions.  Drag on a link, it opens in a new tab.  Drag on a bunch of
links then go through the tabs one by one.  (also you don't get lost
with "back" and "forwards"--you can keep your main window right there
and keep track of where you are.)   I tried it on Yana, works great.
Also its great for Google (or any) searches, because you can open all
the promising results at once, then scan/close windows very fast,
leaving only the ones you want to peruse open.

I know there's a learning curve, but everyone who has watched me browse
has downloaded it and learned it.  This isn't a sales pitch, I am only
writing because it is much less tedious, and I don't want anyone on
this group to experience any more tedium than fate requires.
Peter Headland - 21 Mar 2006 21:20 GMT
If you are not confident of the treatment in the UK and have the money
(maybe UKP20K, maybe quite a lot less), you could have it done here in
the USA by one of the top men. The secret is in negotiating some
all-inclusive costs up front, otherwise you get skinned.

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Peter Headland

 
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