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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2006

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Anyone heard from Steve and Laurel?

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dave481 - 07 Mar 2006 22:16 GMT
I think steve's RP was scheduled for yesterday. I was just wondering
about them.  What is the average stay in the hospital, given good
health, for a RP? Mine is scheduled for monday the 13th. Plus removal
of a colon tumor. They are sparing no nerves, it's the whole thing
because of the high Gleason and 9 of 12 showed perineural invasion.
I've heard hospital stays are 3-4 days. Is this accurate? I'm 52 and
good health except for a couple of bad cancers.
juniper - 07 Mar 2006 22:41 GMT
Hey, Dave, thanks for asking.

Surgery went fine on Monday.  They called me from the ER about 3 times.
They said they would, and I thought that sounded fine, but it was
actually odd.   Called to tell me surgery started at 8:10.  Called
after the lymph nodes were all removed, it went well.  Called when the
prostate was removed, went well.  Now they'd be sewing up the
urethra....  Wasn't prepared to be visualizing it that closely.
Different.

After surgery, the doctor said it went very well.  Lost maybe 150 ccs
of blood.  I asked about margins, he said the seminal vesicles were a
little sticky to the rectum and difficult to ferret apart, but that
could be residual inflammation from the biopsy.  That this hospital was
slower than some on the path reports, between 1 and 2 weeks.  That he
was happy about his nice strong bladder neck (I think I'm getting this
right), and thinking that was a good sign for future continence.

The one thing I promised Steve was about pain.  I just assumed that
pain control was a given in any hospital in America.  Well, (a) no
self-controlled drip, (b) 2 mg dose of morphine.  Doesn't seem enough.

I went off on them this morning becasue I didn't believe they'd given
him any morphine.  I can tell by his face.  The tension and color, I
doubt it shows to strangers.  Also he didn't sleep much last night.
The roommate weighs about 600 pounds, and all his equipment that keeps
him breathing sounded like a freight train.  Was malfunctioning.
People would come in and 'fix' it, in 1 minute it would start again.
Finally about 4 a.m. someone went over there and (we think) just
unplugged it.  Then his IV drip kept doing this "beep.  beep.  beep."
(very maddening with no sleep).  I kept asking them to stop it, they'd
go press "silent" (I think) and it would start back up in a minute.
Finally I just went out there, kind of between crying and yelling in a
whisper, and went on and on.  About them not giving him anything for
pain, about the goddamn defective equipment that kept him from sleeping
and was driving me crazy.  Then I felt bad, went and ate.  All that was
about 5 I think, it had been going on since I got back here at 4:00.
Plus what Steve reported about between 10 pm and 4:00.

The nurse somehow stopped that "beep.  beep.  beep." So the rest of the
time was bearable.  They moved Steve to a room with a guy named Bob who
had a TURP today.  About an hour ago.  He's trying to sleep now.

I talked to the doctor about getting his bowels moving before
discharge.  He said no.  Also he hasn't given stool softeners.  We said
something about that in one of the pre-op visits and he said he didn't
do that, but we didn't really key into that then.  Well, it is a big
big deal to me now.  I think the least we can do is at least try to get
that going.  Unless you don't think it is a big deal?  The doctor said
they weren't anywhere near the bowels and it wouldn't be a big deal.
Maybe I'm reading something into this from my expierence that doesn't
apply to a RRP.

The doctor would send him home tomorrow (he said at 7 a.m.) but I sure
couldn't see that then.  Plus we will stay in town for a couple of
days.  He doesn't want to stay with friends.  I have to find a motel
with a recliner.  Hmmmm.  I think he should be more ready.  He's been
up twice so far today.  Was shooting for 4 times but it will probably
be 3 walks.  Its getting in and out of bed, of course.  Not walking so
much.  But if his pain was better managed it probably wouldn't be so
tough.

This is a volunteer-staffed little library in the hospital and it
closes at six p.m.  It's 3:30 now.  So I'll try to come back right
before six and see if y'all have anything to say.  The doctor does
rounds about 6-6:30 a.m.

I sound stressed but this is a very, very good hospital.  Good Sam in
Phoenix.  I am so happy to be here.  Just, you know, lack of sleep and
lack of power to fix everything.  :o)

laurel
I.P. Freely - 08 Mar 2006 00:13 GMT
> Hey, Dave, thanks for asking.
>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>
> laurel

I'm happy to hear your recovery ward experience is going so well.

You'll notice there's no smiley face. That's because it's NOT FUNNY how
some recovery wards treat patients. I've gotten blood from many turnips
over the decades with a whole arsenal of persuasive skills, yet that
week post-op challenged every skill I have just to get by. The biggest
single club I used after asking the nurses for help failed was informing
my lead surgeon I was getting virtually no sleep at all (he had told me
before surgery that sleep was crucial to recovery) and that my slow
recovery was going to reflect on his skills; once I explained the
problems he ORDERED them resolved immediately. Most of the problems were
fixed within hours.

There's no excuse for being in pain, for nurses yelling conversations up
and down the ward halls all night, for being awakened six GD times in
one hour for routine inquiries or probes, for roommates taking cell
phone calls 24/7, for rooms kept at 80 degrees because a prima dona
nurse refuses to wear a sweater and likes the heat, or for being kept in
bed for 80 hours post-op because "I'm too busy to show you how to get
out of bed, even once."

I found ear plugs, a white noise machine, and a fan about as critical to
my peace as food, water, and a bed. Until my wife procured the real
McCoys for me, the ward staff gave me the ear plugs, my wife scrounged
the fan from a nearby office, and the white noise source was the bed
station's humidified breathing mask which I just lay on my pillow to
drown out the absolutely INCREDIBLE amount of RACKET from the hall --
and that was after my surgeon got me a private room. I also made them
turn off my DAMNED iv tower beeper, and turn down my room temp by 10-12
degrees.

Ya tries hard to be nice, then ya has to decide which issues are worth
getting forceful about. Several issues -- such as repeated wrong, even
dangerous, meds; a plugged catheter; and an idiot 10 feet away taking
routine phone calls at 3:AM -- were worth losing the Mister Congeniality
award over. (It may be highly valued by nurses, but is not worth losing
several days' sleep over.)

I'll forget my year in diapers, my first post-op sneeze, and maybe even
my repeated catheter blockages, but I'll never forget or excuse my week
in the recovery ward. I will never go into a hospital recovery ward
again without first securing some serious commitments from my surgeon
for serious personal support during that phase.

Be nice when it works, be firm as hell when that fails, and lean on the
surgeon if necessary.

Good luck.

I.P.
Alan Meyer - 08 Mar 2006 00:41 GMT
Excellent posts by both you and Laurel.

I wouldn't have believed it was physically possible for anyone
to snore as loudly as my hospital roommate, and I wouldn't
have imagined that anyone would be watching inane TV
sitcoms at 11 at night after surgery.  I didn't sleep at all until
3 am when a nurse finally moved me temporarily into an
empty room.

Fortunately I was just there for one night for "observation"
after brachtherapy.

Hospitals are just the worst places to be when you're sick
and need rest.

   Alan
juniper - 08 Mar 2006 18:05 GMT
Thanks for all the posts, y'all.  :)

Today is Wednesday, and the world is far rosier.  Steve is up and
walking, walking, walking.  Desperate to ...  'make gas'?  Is that a
technical term?  He has been, but not to the point of "ahhhhhhhh.  That
was it."  So the pain now is gas pain, pretty much.  He thought they
left a probe in his butt for 2 hours, but I think it was teasing the
semininal vesicles off the rectum, it is sore and tense.  But when he
looks good, I feel good, and he's so much better today, I'm going to
Linda's for a shower and a nap, maybe laundry....

We're going to stay in Phoenix for a couple of days if I can find a
motel with a recliner.  Even if not, I guess.

Discharge tomorrow, the perfect amount of time in his case to be
inpatient.  

Talk to you later!

laurel
I.P. Freely - 07 Mar 2006 23:22 GMT
> I think steve's RP was scheduled for yesterday. I was just wondering
> about them.  What is the average stay in the hospital, given good
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've heard hospital stays are 3-4 days. Is this accurate? I'm 52 and
> good health except for a couple of bad cancers.

Your CC is the long tent pole. If it were just an RP, you'd be out in
3-4 days. But your ticket out of the hospital after colon surgery is a
bowel movement, which can easily take a week. They must be certain your
bowel is working again before releasing you. (I wish to HELL I had known
that; I'd love to have seen their faces when I showed 'em some plastic
dog doo on about Day Three.)

Told in advance I would be there for 6-8 days, I took some books and
mags. Yeah, right; even light doses of morphine wipe out one's
short-term memory so thoroughly that reading is a joke. Even TV was
challenging to my thought processes, partly because I was so sleepy that
it took conversation or walking to keep me really awake. Even though
they said I was using far less morphine than most people (I just didn't
need it), hospitals are about as conducive to sleep as watching a good
football game ... from front row seats on the 50-yard line.

Take a good lively, brainless -- but not funny -- novel and a few mags
in case you're the exception to morphine's effects, tell anybody who
cares that you'll be home in 6-8 days barring problems, and try to enjoy
your few hours a day of APPARENT lucidity. (You won't recognize your
mental impairment, but your visitors will. Presume you will forget most
details and write down anything you really need to remember later.)

Prune juice!

I.P.
dave481 - 08 Mar 2006 00:09 GMT
Thanks IP, A friend of mine told me similar things about a back surgery
he had. He said the meds were'nt adequate, for me to turn down the
morphine and he'd bring some drugs by called diladid. Said he had
plenty and they work and don't confuse you. Maybe...... I have a pretty
high tolerance for pain, so, I'm just gonna play it by rear:))
I.P. Freely - 08 Mar 2006 02:41 GMT
> Thanks IP, A friend of mine told me similar things about a back surgery
> he had. He said the meds were'nt adequate, for me to turn down the
> morphine and he'd bring some drugs by called diladid. Said he had
> plenty and they work and don't confuse you. Maybe...... I have a pretty
> high tolerance for pain, so, I'm just gonna play it by rear:))

This is not the time to invoke pain tolerance. Once pain appears,
morphine is FAR less effective. We must anticipate the onset of pain and
hit the self-dose button before it hurts. We use much less that way AND
control the pain.

I.P.
Steve Kramer - 08 Mar 2006 10:53 GMT
> This is not the time to invoke pain tolerance. Once pain appears, morphine
> is FAR less effective. We must anticipate the onset of pain and hit the
> self-dose button before it hurts. We use much less that way AND control
> the pain.

That's one advantage to the epidural.  It stayed in for a couple of days
after the surgery.  I never had pain.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Tom Cular - 08 Mar 2006 14:09 GMT
>> Thanks IP, A friend of mine told me similar things about a back surgery
>> he had. He said the meds were'nt adequate, for me to turn down the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I.P.

I'm glad to report that my recent experience was pretty good, the constant
activity by staff can't be avoided, unless I was awake I never knew when
they were there to see my roommate. I was regularly asked about pain and
when I mentioned discomfort not pain, within minutes I was getting a blast
of something through a port. Their reasoning, as I.P. pointed out is that
pain is easier to prevent than overcome. My roommate and his family were
pleasant, considerate folks.
On the light side, he complained to his wife that the food made him belch a
lot, his hearing and sense of feeling must have been disconnected from his
a.s :))

Tom
I.P. Freely - 09 Mar 2006 02:01 GMT
> the constant activity by staff can't be avoided

I DEMANDED they back off. I wasn't joking about being awakened six times
in one hour around midnight one night for routine crap. I got out of
bed, dragged my iv tower down the hall, found the "charge" (head of that
shift) nurse, and told her this had to stop, that I'm not in pain and
I'm not sick, I'm simply and utterly exhausted. We negotiated the
following plan: PLEASE HELP ME GET SOME DAMNED SLEEP. Close my door,
turn off my lights, turn  off that stupid morphine machine beeper, I
don't want my face wiped with a hot towel at 5:freaking o'clock in the
morning when I'm sweaty from the heat, turn down the heat in my room
from 80ish to the upper 60s, I'll let you know if I have a fever, and if
you are required by VA regulations to take some vitals PLEASE PLEASE
PLEASE wake me ONCE and take 'em all at one time.

Before this I was being deliberately awakened 7-10 times DELIBERATELY
every night plus many more times by hallway cacophony even after getting
a private room. I was getting a couple of hours a night of sleep when I
had roomies, maybe up to 4-5 hours after they put me in a private VIP
room AND began giving me heavy sleeping drugs. Sleeping during the day
and evening shifts was virtually impossible, so I was getting less than
5-6 hours of sleep daily even in the private room.

After we reached our understanding, and maybe with my surgeon backing me
up, I was pretty much left alone all night, and got 8-9 hours of sleep.
I didn't care if they DID spit in my food and short-sheet my bed once I
was getting enough sleep.

Squeaking wheels get greased. Only one or maybe two of the nurses seemed
to resent my squeaks (one because I got a VIP room not warranted by my
rank; I lost TONS of sleep over that); the others (12-15?) didn't seem
to mind.

I.P.
dale.j. - 08 Mar 2006 00:10 GMT
> I think steve's RP was scheduled for yesterday. I was just wondering
> about them.  What is the average stay in the hospital, given good
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've heard hospital stays are 3-4 days. Is this accurate? I'm 52 and
> good health except for a couple of bad cancers.

I went in on early Monday morning and was released on Thursday about
noon.  My doc said I could go home on Wednesday, but I begged to stay
another day for the beef stroganoff that was to be served on Thursday.  

It was terribly good.

Cheers,

Dale j.

Signature

Email:  dalej2@mac.com

Sandy K. - 08 Mar 2006 17:19 GMT
> > I think steve's RP was scheduled for yesterday. I was just wondering
> > about them.  What is the average stay in the hospital, given good
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> It was terribly good.

Beef Stroganoff????  All I had was juice and flavored ices.  By the second
day I ordered farina - but it was so bad I didn't eat it.  I had my surgery
done at Memorial Sloane Kettering in NYC and was there less than 48 hours -
from the time I went into the OR to the time I walked out of the hospital.
The strangest thing to me was when the docs cleared me for discharge - I
asked when they would bring a wheelchair and I was told to just walk out the
room, go down the elevator and get into the car - no wheelchair necessary!!
I thought it was a requirement, but I guess not in NY.

Sandy K.
dale.j. - 09 Mar 2006 00:24 GMT
> > > I think steve's RP was scheduled for yesterday. I was just wondering
> > > about them.  What is the average stay in the hospital, given good
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Sandy K.

It was so gooood that beef stroganoff was.  

They insisted on the wheel chair roll out so I did it, I felt a bit
embarrassed because I was perfectly able to walk out as I had been
walking a lot around the hallways from the first 24 hours.  

Seriously, I consider myself very fortunate to have had an excellent
surgeon and excellent hospital care.  The odd of it is neither of these
are high profile or that get a lot of attention.

Wish you well Sandy K.  I remember when you came on board about a year
ago?

Signature

Email:  dalej2@mac.com

Steve Kramer - 09 Mar 2006 02:33 GMT
"dale.j. " <nos.pamz@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:nos.pamz-92B2CE.18250408032006@news-rdr-02.rdc-
> They insisted on the wheel chair roll out so I did it, I felt a bit
> embarrassed because I was perfectly able to walk out as I had been
> walking a lot around the hallways from the first 24 hours.

I once had a pseudo heart attack.  Weeks later, I found out is was residual
from a jelly fish sting.  But, at the hospital, and after days of tests,
they found nothing wrong with me.  ....  but, they wheeled me out anyway.
 
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