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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / March 2006Hello, God Bless, got back biopsies
Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason scale I had one-7, two-8s, six-9s, and two -10s. The uro said that is an aggressive cancer and "appears" advanced. He ran a camera in through my penis and said the bladder was clear. I've had moderate pain in my hip and leg bone for about 3 months so tomorrow I go to an imaging center for a CT of abdomen and pelvic. Then to the nuclear part of that place for a bone scan. This all came about because of a colonoscopy that shows a "larger than golf ball" tumor in my colon. So all the Drs. will be putting their heads together to form a battle plan based on tomorrows results. Does anyone know anything about this type of cancer you can share? Or the reliabilty of the Gleason scale? I sure have enjoyed the feedback here. Oh, and. Can you ride a horses after prostate removal? Or is the pain too great? Thank-you and God Bless You all David p.s. this is such an "indignant" disease. > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he > took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason > scale I had one-7, two-8s, six-9s, and two -10s. The uro said that is > an aggressive cancer and "appears" advanced. (snip) I am very very sorry to learn of this. To be certain of the results, and because the Gleason scores will virtually control what is done from here on, I recommend that the biopsy slides and tissue block be sent for a second opinion to one of the labs that specialize in such studies. The cost should be covered by insurance and Medicare, and is in any event only around $350. Bostwick reported on my specimens in about a week. Information on labs can be found on the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at http://www.prostate-cancer.org/resource/special.html#pathology Exploration of the site will lead Dave to a huge fund of essential information. Based upon Dave's report about his hip and leg (femur?) and subject to confirmation by actual tests, I have to suspect that the PCa has metastasized. It is time to consult a medical oncologist. There is much that can be done. Regards, Steve J "Never -- never -- never give up! Never go gently. There will be plenty of gentle after we die, so until then -- fight -- control the rhythms and tempo of the dance, even when you have to let the PCa dancing bear lead for awhile -- even when you have to wear the lead suit as you dance -- never let the bear set the rhythm and tempo of your dance with life -- when the bear finally takes control, it will be a very hollow feeling for him, because I will be gone -- dancing in a better place." --E. B. (Burns) Mixon, PCa survivor, June 14, 2005 on The Prostate Problems Mailing List Thank you, Burns. Live long and prosper. Dave, we all wish you the very best. The smart guys here and your docs will help you get back on the horses. Follow their advice...do the treatments...and I'm confident that you will ride again. Giddyup. :-) My best wishes are sent to you, Ron B. Chicago Adenocarcinoma is run-of-the-mill prostate cancer which is what just about everyone here has or has had. Your uro is correct when he says it is aggressive. As for the Gleason scores, they're not too difficult for a pathologist to determine. If you have a dozen different pathologists read them, you'll get a few small variations such as one guy calling one sample a six instead of a seven, but in your case it's pretty certain you have a lot of high numbers no matter how many times they're looked at. As for riding a horse post-op, how soon do you want to ride? It'll hurt like hell if you try it the first week but there's no reason you can't ride after everything heals up. Looks like you have a tough row to hoe what with the colon stuff and now this. Here's hoping the docs can get you all patched up and back on that horse again. All the best. Dave Perry > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he > took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thank-you and God Bless You all > David Very few here (3 in 4 years) have had a Gleason of 10. I believe they will find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as opposed to colon cancer. While that is bad news, it might not be as bad as a colon cancer tumor which, I believe, is more deadly. There is probably no harder analysis in medicine that determining the difference between Gleasons, but your 10s are not going to be read by others as 7s. You have very serious prostate cancer. Riding horses after normal prostate cancer is not a problem. I assume they will have to cut out the colon tumor and resection the colon which may be the larger question regarding horseback riding. God bless you too, David. I sure am sorry for your dx. Please keep us posted on your other test results. > "dave481" <daave481@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as opposed to > colon cancer. How would they know, since they're both adenocarcinomas ? Which opens up the question of post-op treatment. Depending on the pathology report of the colon tumour, post op chemo is sometimes advised. Which leaves him (taking) post op chemo for the colon and post op hormone therapy for the prostate ? J Note: crosspost for opinion elsewhere > While that is bad news, it might not be as bad as a colon > cancer tumor which, I believe, is more deadly. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > will have to cut out the colon tumor and resection the colon which may be > the larger question regarding horseback riding. > How would they know, since they're both adenocarcinomas ? I don't know. But, I'm almost certain that they can. Especially now that they know the DNA of prostate cancer... or is it the prostate cancer chromozome of DNA? > Which opens up the question of post-op treatment. > Depending on the pathology report of the colon tumour, post op chemo is > sometimes advised. > Which leaves him (taking) post op chemo for the colon and post op hormone > therapy for the prostate ? I think it is very early to worry about that, J. He still has scans and other tests to complete to determine if he has metastases on his bones and elsewhere. If he has both kinds of cancers, he's going to have to get applicable treatment for each and both cannot be contraindicated with each other. I.P. is the expert in this area. I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets, they will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate.  SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets, they > will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate. I can't imagine using RT when they must open him up anyway to get the CC. As long as they're in there, may as well grab the prostate at the same time and do the pathology. Prostate excision is the more exacting surgery, especially if nerve sparing is done, but the CC surgery is arguably the bigger recovery issue simply because it's a bigger zipper and requires more hospital time. I.P. >> I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets, >> they will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I.P. Resection of a colon cancer, especially in the transverse or right colon, is a MUCH simpler and less morbid surgery than radical prostatectomy >>> I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets, >>> they will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Resection of a colon cancer, especially in the transverse or right colon, is > a MUCH simpler and less morbid surgery than radical prostatectomy Simpler, yes, but as long as the hole is already cut through the abdominal muscle wall, what they do once inside isn't as critical to the recovery morbidity. It was my right hemicolectomy that kept me in the hospital the extra several days, and the hemicolectomy hole was much bigger than an RRP hole. It was the hole in my abs that I felt for the next 4-6 weeks, not the traumatized prostate fossa. In my case, the uro surgeon took a few hours to do his part, and the colon surgeon needed only 20-30 minutes to do his. As you know and imply, the former is rooting around in a tight space trying to distinguish and remove bad meat from good meat, while the latter can essentially spread his work out in front of himself and snip out fairly discrete parts. It does leave me wondering, though, how easily they find dozens of lymph nodes. My point is that since the greatest certain difference between RT and RRP is in the short term -- the surgery recovery -- one would think that having to get opened up anyway would probably swing the RP-RT dilemma towards RP. I.P. >>>> I suspect that if he has colon and prostate cancer and no other mets, >>>> they will cut out the colon tumor and radiate the prostate. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > I.P. I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your surgeons could answer whether the two procedures could (or should) be done synchronously > I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a > colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your > surgeons could answer whether the two procedures could (or should) be done > synchronously I wasn't speaking hypothetically. I had the R half of my colon and all of my prostate removed in one surgery 16 months ago. My surgeons didn't hesitate for a moment to agree to the dual procedure; ya just makes a longer midline incision (my zipper is about 9" long), do the more difficult or urgent surgery first, assess the pt, then do the second procedure next. They even considered a third procedure in my case -- visual/ tactile/ pathological evaluation of my liver for carcinoid mets -- but decided it wasn't sufficiently accessible to do more than a cursory palpation. Several other tests had excluded liver involvement, so they didn't bother to keep cutting. I.P. >> I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a >> colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I.P. Only in the States! >>> I'm not a surgeon, but I do know that the appropriate incision for a >>> colectomy is not the same as the incision for a prostatectomy. Only your [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Only in the States! Why is that? It seemed pretty logical to me, and when I suggested it to the two surgeons (both oncs) their eyebrows shot up in approval (I think I even saw enthusiasm for something new and different). I made sure the surgeons had studied and planned their approach in detail and had passed it by their oncology review board. Both procedures went by the book with no surprises. I.P. >> "dave481" <daave481@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > How would they know, since they're both adenocarcinomas ? Usually, prostate cancer cells will stain for psa, even if the blood test is negative. I don't recall the entire story here, but recurrent prostate cancer presenting as a mass in the rectum is not uncommon. I believe they will >> find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as opposed to >> colon cancer. > > How would they know, since they're both adenocarcinomas ? PC is PC is PC. It's unmistakable (as PC) no matter where it occurs. I.P. > I believe they will >>> find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as opposed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I.P. It's not quite that clear cut. A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively > A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff > colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively Mind you, I have not read this anywhere. Nor would I have expected to. The discovery of the chromozomes in DNA particular to PCa is so new that the writing of it has probably not extended to a dicsussion of determining origin. But, I would guess now that the chromozomes have been identified, it should be a simple process to determine if the DNA taken from a mass is PCa or CCa. >> A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff >> colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it should be a simple process to determine if the DNA taken from a mass is > PCa or CCa. I'm a clinical oncologist, not a researcher, but this sound doubtful. Only a very few rare conditions have specific chromosomes associated with the disease. Chronic myeloid leukemia is the classic. As far as I'm aware, prostate cancer does not. Sure there may be specific gene expressions associated with prostate cancer, and prostate cancers may have funny numbers of chromosomes, but that applies to most cancers >>> A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly >>> diff colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a very few rare conditions have specific chromosomes associated with the > disease. Chronic myeloid leukemia is the classic. Good! You can take my idea and make $ Millions! Just kidding. It's nice to hear from someone with a working knowledge of such things. I hope Dave is listening. >> I believe they will >>>> find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as opposed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > A poorly diff prostate cancer may be indistinguishable from a poorly diff > colon cancer, if they don't express PSA or CEA respectively I gotcha; thanks for the clarification. So it's assessed by appearance, which goes to hell as we near grade 5. I guess the next issue is which type of CC is involved. Carcinoid CC is pretty unique in its production of 5-HIAA, I believe, and thus more distinguishable from even a grade 5 PC. I.P. >>> I believe they will >>>>> find that your tumor is a prostate cancer tumor in your colon as [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I.P. Carcinoid is a rare colon cancer. 99% of colon cancers are plain old colonic adenoca. CArcinoid does look different histologically, and I doubt many pathologists would confuse them > Carcinoid is a rare colon cancer. 99% of colon cancers are plain old colonic > adenoca. CArcinoid does look different histologically, and I doubt many > pathologists would confuse them Tell me about it ... then calculate the odds one active and healthy-eating person is going to encounter a large and rapidly-growing carcinoid colon tumor with no mets or symptoms, Gleason 8 PC which saved his life, and a labyrinthectomy due to Meniere's disease? I musta PO'd some god somewhere along the line. I hope he's retired before I try to skate past a reoccurrence. I.P. > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he > took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sure have enjoyed the feedback here. Oh, and. Can you ride a horses > after prostate removal? Or is the pain too great? The next day? NO! 6-8 weeks post-RRP you can ride a bull (presuming you can ride one now and you stay in shape). There are widely different types of colon cancer on the menu. A LOT depends on the type and the location. Find out what kind and location you have and start Googling it. Gleason grading is quite reliable, in that very professional second opinions are readily available. I'd want a large national lab to grade mine, but you may know much more after tomorrow's scan than a second Gleason grading can tell you. I.P. > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he > took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason > scale I had one-7, two-8s, six-9s, and two -10s. The uro said that is Pretty harsh, Dave, I'm sorry. > imaging center for a CT of abdomen and pelvic. Then to the nuclear part > of that place for a bone scan. This all came about because of a Nice you're getting so much done so fast. This will all help. > all the Drs. will be putting their heads together to form a battle plan So cool you have a good team that works together. > of cancer you can share? Or the reliabilty of the Gleason scale? I Well, the Gleason is pretty predictive. Everyone was sorry we had a 7. > sure have enjoyed the feedback here. Oh, and. Can you ride a horses Having had a couple of abdominal surgeries, you can do anything after a couple of months. One time I was living on a mine in the desert. I think the minimum slope to the mountainside I lived on was about 6/1. I wasn't doing anything but falling into bed, because except for the 30 or so square feet of our travel trailer, everything was too hard to climb up. Getting to the outhouse was pure hell. I finally gave up and went to my family's for a couple of weeks. Fixed me right up, being able to walk on normal ground. > p.s. this is such an "indignant" disease. How dare it! regards, and good luck with your scans. laurel >Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he >took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >p.s. this is such an "indignant" disease. David Sorry to hear about your findings. You didn't mention your PSA. I was diagnosed last March with advanced PCA. It had spread to the spine, hips legs, ribs. etc. I'll be surprised if your bone scan doesn't show metastatic spots. If yours has spread, as I expect it has, they will not remove the prostate. The operation would be a failure going in. They treated me with total androgen blocade using Zoladex and Casodex. I got monthly injections of Zometa to help the bones heal. My psa plumeted from 725.4 to 6.6 in 4 months and I was feeling fine.. Unfortunately it started going back up after that. That showed that the cancer had become resistant to the hormones. I was then given a series of 4 treatments with Taxotere, a chemo agent. The psa came down to 9.9. The treatment was stopped. Within a month the pas was up to 25.6. They won't put me back on Taxotere because the tumor is resistant to it and the doctor said that he doesn't want to expose me to the toxicity of it needlessly. I'm now getting a series of 8 treatments of Navelbine. I had hoped that the hormones would work for 5-10 years before failure which is common. My thinking was that there is a chance that a "cure" could be found by then. Didn't happen. Hopefully you will have better results than I've had up to now. Jim Jim, it's 03:00 am and anxiety woke me up. Yours is the first post I've read here where they didn't remove something. a psa higher than mine (36.8), way higher and it sure doesn't sound like much fun. I haven't had the scans yet, so don't really know anything. I didn't know they treated things this way. Thank-you and all who have responded. God Bless David Sorry, Dave! I am sure that I am one of those to whom you refer as having added to your anxiety level. I don't remember how old you are, if you told us, but if this is your foray into major surgery, radiation, hormone treatment and/or chemotherapy, it is rather daunting. And, at Ages 46, 47 and 48 it was to me. I interact so often now with those here that have been through it, that I forget how daunting it is to those who have not. So let me be specific about these so that you can know and understand. I will list for you the hardest things to go through and in order: STRUGGLING WITH YOUR MORTALITY. I list this without a number, because it is different in every man. And each man has a different view of it depending on his age, environment, situation and other issues that uniquely come into play. Personally, for example, my father died of PCa at 50. So, I almost expected it. My children were grown and clearly on the right paths. I can retire anytime I want and provide for my wife. So, mortality is not at the top of my list. But, it is most assuredly at the top of others'. 1. TELLING YOUR LOVED ONES. I swear to God, I hate this one. I wish I could have been like my grandfather who passed out in his backyard and died on the operating table as they were trying to remove the tumor that had wrapped itself around his vertebrae. He must have been in serious pain, but no one in the family knew, because, I assume, he couldn't bear to tell anyone. 2. BONE PAIN. I haven't experienced it, but I've heard descriptions of it and it must have just been gawd-awful. Fortunately, now, while it's still extremely painful, there are medications that do a good job of lessening it. My dad's pain was so great that they had to practically put him into a coma with Morphine. 3. CHEMOTHERAPY. This stuff makes you really sick. It made my dad so sick that I swore, when I watched him die, that I would never fight as hard as he did. However, again, the treatments of today are much better that in the late 70s, so I think I'll fight the bastard to the end. 4. HORMONE THERAPY. The treatment itself is painless. A shot in the a.s and you're done. Sometimes the nurse says, "Hold on. I'm going to put a Band-Aid on it" before I realize I had the shot. But the side effects are moderate to severe. I suffer from memory lapses, fatigue, weight gain, and I read the articles in Playboy. 5. DIAGNOSTIC SCANS. I hate laying on a table absolutely still and one required I do so for 2 hours! 6. SURGERY. The hardest part of surgery for me was my family parading through pre-op and crying about my 'certain death.' For the rest of it, I was asleep. When I awoke, I had a team of nurses to care for my every need. I went home and laid around for a few weeks until I begged the doctor to let me go back to work. 7. RADIATION. You go lay down on a table and a giant dentist's X-ray cone moves around you. The side effects, especially if you prepare yourself with hydration, exercise and sleep are mild and temporary. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) @ 48, 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum > Jim, it's 03:00 am and anxiety woke me up. Yours is the first post I've > read here where they didn't remove something. a psa higher than mine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > God Bless > David > 2. BONE PAIN. I haven't experienced it, but I've heard descriptions of it > and it must have just been gawd-awful. Fortunately, now, while it's still [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > did. However, again, the treatments of today are much better that in the > late 70s, so I think I'll fight the bastard to the end. I'm already fighting that stage of the bastard: I've offered motivation and help to my state legislators towards passage of our assisted suicide bill. Forcing a clearly terminal pt and family to endure weeks to months of comatose agony just to satisfy religious zealots and hippocratic oaths is unconscionable. I.P. >> 2. BONE PAIN. I haven't experienced it, but I've heard descriptions of >> it and it must have just been gawd-awful. Fortunately, now, while it's [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I.P. Treading gingerly into an issue that may have political ramifications---but here we agree---and this is definitely disease related---an even more important battle to fight is to get the DEA off the backs of physicians so that they are not afraid to prescribe adequate pain meds. As far as I'm concerned, if I have terminal cancer, give me all the meds I need to control the pain, and if I OD, so be it. > Treading gingerly into an issue that may have political ramifications---but > here we agree---and this is definitely disease related---an even more > important battle to fight is to get the DEA off the backs of physicians so > that they are not afraid to prescribe adequate pain meds. As far as I'm > concerned, if I have terminal cancer, give me all the meds I need to control > the pain, and if I OD, so be it. The courts shot down our federal (Ashcroft's) attempt to prohibit assisted suicide; now it's going to be state by state. At last count only one U.S. state allows it. Conveniently for me, that state is just 20 minutes away. HOWEVER ... if my state (or the docs' fear of the courts) won't provide relief when relief is all that's left, there are other, more graphic, solutions that may help not only me but others in similar sinking ships. I.P. >> Treading gingerly into an issue that may have political >> ramifications---but here we agree---and this is definitely disease [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > relief when relief is all that's left, there are other, more graphic, > solutions that may help not only me but others in similar sinking ships. Might I recommend something in a size 12? >> At last count only one U.S. >> state allows it. Conveniently for me, that state is just 20 minutes away. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Might I recommend something in a size 12? If you're referring to shoes for hiking the 25 miles, that would solve MY problem, but maybe some publicity and a well-researched, well-explained public appeal for legislation would solve MANY people's problems. If you were referring to a GAUGE 12 ... now we're on the same page. It would make two points: 1. If a pregnant woman's body is her own, so is mine. 2. If the legislation were in place, I could have lived a few more weeks or months without risking becoming too feeble to take care of business and you wouldn't have this mess all over everything. I.P. >> Might I recommend something in a size 12? > > If you were referring to a GAUGE 12 ... now we're on the same page. I was and we are. >>> Might I recommend something in a size 12? >> >> If you were referring to a GAUGE 12 ... now we're on the same page. > >I was and we are. A running car in a closed garage is less traumatic to the "patient". And no legislation needed. Probably less traumatic too to those left behind who will have to deal with the results of a 12 gauge. > A running car in a closed garage is less traumatic to the "patient". > And no legislation needed. Probably less traumatic too to those left > behind who will have to deal with the results of a 12 gauge. But which gets more press and thus brings more attention to the plight of others in the same sinking boat? Oh, well ... with any luck it won't come to that, and I'll die in my 90s 'cause my bungee cord was five feet too long. ;-) I.P. > A running car in a closed garage is less traumatic to the "patient". > And no legislation needed. Probably less traumatic too to those left > behind who will have to deal with the results of a 12 gauge. I don't want to turn this into a suicide site, so I won't give any more details or attributes. Conversely, if anyone does take any course of action, I recommend that their first consideration be a plan to do it where no one in the family will have to deal with it. Why a father and/or husband would shoot himself in a home, or hang himself in the backyard or closet where there is a 50/50 chance or greater his child will find him and 100% chance someone in his family will, is beyond me. That goes for the garage as well. If you're going to do it, go down to the morgue, knock on the door and let the attendant find you. >> A running car in a closed garage is less traumatic to the "patient". >> And no legislation needed. Probably less traumatic too to those left [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is beyond me. That goes for the garage as well. If you're going to do it, > go down to the morgue, knock on the door and let the attendant find you. My thought was to call in the press, read a prepared statement if I was still able (or play a tape if no longer able to speak), discuss the need for carefully controlled assisted suicide legislation, then demonstrate the only alternative we have now to avoid the intractable, dysfunctional, excruciating, incommunicative end to so many diseases. Anything from a stick of dynamite to a quick-acting pill would make the point, depending on how dramatic one felt the point need be made. Even if a pt chose to fight for every last breath for whatever reason, the knowledge that his form and time of demise is HIS CHOICE would give most pts a degree of control most pts don't have now, and I'm guessing that would be extremely important to a terminal pt. Then there's the family. Alzheimer's, I gather, is hard only on the family once it is all that's left. Why on earth would I want my wife to have to deal for years with a blathering idiot who doesn't even recognize her anymore? I.P. > Why on earth would I want my wife to have to deal for years with a > blathering idiot who doesn't even recognize her anymore? As opposed to one who does? ;-) >> Why on earth would I want my wife to have to deal for years with a >> blathering idiot who doesn't even recognize her anymore? > > As opposed to one who does? ;-) Touché, puss....that got me giggling!! Well, IP, considering the state of your health, the 'other, more graphic solutions' would be decades away. But we can always count on you to think things through ahead of time. > The courts shot down our federal (Ashcroft's) attempt to prohibit > assisted suicide; now it's going to be state by state. At last count [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I.P. > Well, IP, considering the state of your health, the 'other, more > graphic solutions' would be decades away. But we can always count on > you to think things through ahead of time. The statistics of EACH of my cancers by itself gives me less than a 50/50 shot at 10 years. Combining the stats gives me much less. But they both also leave wiggle room around the ends of their curves, so I'm wiggling like a golden retriever puppy in the meantime. I.P. >> 2. BONE PAIN. I haven't experienced it, but I've heard descriptions of >> it and it must have just been gawd-awful. Fortunately, now, while it's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of comatose agony just to satisfy religious zealots and hippocratic oaths > is unconscionable. I agree with the Hippocratic Oath. An oath to Hippocrates regarding the treatment of humans that is violated from the very first time they accept a dollar for their services is hypocritical. But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they just be believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in His Word? However, I also agree with you that suicide should not be legislated, and it is unconstitutional for the federal government to do so. Suicide is between a man and himself if he does not believe and a man and God if he does. On March 1, Steve Kramer replied to IP: > I agree with the Hippocratic Oath. An oath to Hippocrates regarding the > treatment of humans that is violated from the very first time they accept a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a man and himself if he does not believe and a man and God if he does. > And from a philosophical, even practical, viewpoint: "...the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their number, is self-protection. The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilised community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not sufficient warrant. He cannot rightfully be compelled to do or forbear because it will be better for him to do so, because it will make him happier, because, in the opinion of others, to do so would be wise, or even right...The only part of the conduct of anyone, for which he is amenable to society, is that which concerns others. In the part which merely concerns himself, his independence is, of right, absolute. Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." -John Stuart Mill Regards, Steve J > > "...the sole end for which mankind are warranted, individually or > collectively, in interfering with the liberty of action of any of their [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign." > -John Stuart Mill I dont' know who Mr. Mill is, but wherein suicide and civil legislation is concerned, I cannot find fault with his opinion. On March 1, Steve Kramer responded to my John Stuart Mill quotation: > I dont' know who Mr. Mill is, but wherein suicide and civil > legislation is > concerned, I cannot find fault with his opinion. > John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) was a leading social and political philosopher in Great Britain. More can be found at: http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/m/milljs.htm Regards, Steve J Another Mill quotation: "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling that thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." > [ snip ] > But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they just > be believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in His > Word? Hey, I'm OK with the idea that God exists. But I draw the line at the notion of "intelligent design," if the prostate gland is an example of His handiwork. (g) Alex > [ snip ] >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > notion of "intelligent design," if the prostate gland is an example of His > handiwork. (g) He said no one will live beyond 120. Do you know any 119 year old males who do not have prostate cancer. He built in obsolescence, that's all. :-) > But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they just be > believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in His Word? Would a "mere" believer raise hell, even take action, if a terminal stranger in extreme circumstances wanted to end his suffering? I.P. >> But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they just >> be believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in His >> Word? > > Would a "mere" believer raise hell, even take action, if a terminal > stranger in extreme circumstances wanted to end his suffering? No. And I've never understood those who do. Even Jesus Christ did not. >>> But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they just >>> be believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in His [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No. And I've never understood those who do. Even Jesus Christ did not. That's why I added the Z word. I.P. >>>> But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they >>>> just be believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> No. And I've never understood those who do. Even Jesus Christ did not. > That's why I added the Z word. So, you think the laws are based on zealousness and not belief. I can accept that. >>>>> But religious zealots? Why do they have to be zealots? Can't they >>>>> just be believers? Does one have be a zealot to believe in God and in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >So, you think the laws are based on zealousness and not belief. I can >accept that. I think they are based on both since there would not be such laws against suicide for the terminally ill unless those passing them both believed it was wrong and were sufficiently zealous in their belief to work for years to get such laws in place. Same is true for the anti-choice for abortion, they are both zealots and believers. > I think they are based on both since there would not be such laws > against suicide for the terminally ill unless those passing them both > believed it was wrong and were sufficiently zealous in their belief to > work for years to get such laws in place. Same is true for the > anti-choice for abortion, they are both zealots and believers. I think they are based on a common foundation of what every non-psychotic knows as being either right or wrong. For a couple of millennia, this common knowledge was sufficient for a majority of a population to understand that a breach of them would result in quick and sure punishment (except west of the Pecos). Now, a number of people, almost undoubtedly a minority, are sufficiently screwed up in their thinking that they have determined that a bastardization of these commonly agreed upon tenets are in order. It is better for them, or easier for them, and, irregardless of the effect on society, community, neighborhood or family they desire a change. When they don't get their change or someone debates their "need" for such, somehow those who concur with the status quo are labeled as zealots. I think laws based on principles are much better than laws based on a lack thereof. I'm sorry to hear that Jim. Last I knew, you were looking at no further treatment if your PSA was less than 10 (after your Decemeber treatment). I imagine you were preetty happy with the 9.9, and pretty pissed at the 25.6. SignaturePSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum >>Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he >>took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > better results than I've had up to now. > Jim > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he > took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason > scale I had one-7, two-8s, six-9s, and two -10s. The uro said that is Pretty harsh, Dave, I'm sorry. > imaging center for a CT of abdomen and pelvic. Then to the nuclear part > of that place for a bone scan. This all came about because of a Nice you're getting so much done so fast. This will all help. > all the Drs. will be putting their heads together to form a battle plan So cool you have a good team that works together. > of cancer you can share? Or the reliabilty of the Gleason scale? I Well, the Gleason is pretty predictive. Everyone was sorry we had a 7. > sure have enjoyed the feedback here. Oh, and. Can you ride a horses Having had a couple of abdominal surgeries, you can do anything after a couple of months. One time I was living on a mine in the desert. I think the minimum slope to the mountainside I lived on was about 6/1. I wasn't doing anything but falling into bed, because except for the 30 or so square feet of our travel trailer, everything was too hard to climb up. Getting to the outhouse was pure hell. I finally gave up and went to my family's for a couple of weeks. Fixed me right up, being able to walk on normal ground. > p.s. this is such an "indignant" disease. How dare it! regards, and good luck with your scans. laurel Dave, let us know what your scans show. I'll be hanging out at a hospital and doubt I'll have much Internet access, but I'll try to keep up. Thinking of you. > Got back biopsies and they have Adenocarcinoma in all 12 samples (he > took 14, don't know what happen to the other 2). Anyhow, on the Gleason [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > p.s. this is such an "indignant" disease. laurel, the scans came back neg. Very grateful, you and Steve hang in there. I'm praying for you monday. They take out my prostate thurs. the 9th. And the colon cancer as well. Stay in touch God Bless you David > laurel, the scans came back neg. Very grateful, you and Steve hang in > there. I'm praying for you monday. They take out my prostate thurs. the > 9th. And the colon cancer as well. Stay in touch > God Bless you > David David, way back iin the thread, Steph mentioned CEA. Do make sure that's tested. It may be of no significance if the surgery cures the colon cancer. If surgery doesn't cure the colon cancer, it's (later) used as a (treatment) monitoring marker. So it's important to know if yours expresses CEA. If it does, it'll likely drop after the surgery, so have it tested before. Is my non-expert understanding. J > laurel, the scans came back neg. Very grateful, you and Steve hang in > there. I'm praying for you monday. They take out my prostate thurs. the > 9th. And the colon cancer as well. Stay in touch > God Bless you > David YES!!! So that back pain is arthritis, huh? Too many broncs in your youth.... Maybe its smashed discs. Yuck. Why do I think like this? I am so happy for you Dave. This is GREAT. And good luck to you also! |
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