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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2006

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Alternatives to biopsy?

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Wayne - 23 Feb 2006 14:10 GMT
Hi
I just returned from the Dr.
My PSA jumped from 4 to 6 about 6 months ago and now it's up to 6.5.
I had a biopsy 6 months ago but the results were negative. He says that if
it's up again in 4 months then I'll need another biopsy. He says my prostate
seems to be 'doing something' and we must keep a close watch.
Since the biopsy consists of several 'pokes in the dark' hoping to hit
something which may be small and just starting, I wonder if there is
anything more accurate?

Also, does anyone have a scale which relates the psa score to the likelihood
of cancer?

Wayne in Ottawa
ron - 23 Feb 2006 14:40 GMT
Wayne...Color doppler ultrasound by Bahn or Lee or MRI by Shinohara.
These imaging techniques allow the docs to see more of the gland and in
much higher resolution.  These docs are also the best at what they do.
They can then perform "targeted biopsies" if they see something.  You
can google these terms with "proste cancer" to learn more about
them...Ron

Duke K. Bahn MD
Medical Director, Department of Radiology
Prostate Institute of America
Community Memorial Hospital of San Buenaventura
168 N. Brent Street, Suite 402
Ventura, CA 93003
888-234-0004
805-585-3082
Fax: 805-641-3965
dkbahn@cmhhospital.org

Fred Lee, MD
Crittenton Hospital
1135 W University Dr, #420
Rochester, MI 48307
(248)650-4699

Katsuto Shinohara MD
1600 Divisadero Street, 3rd floor
UCSF
San Francisco, CA 94115
Tel:415-476-1611
Fax:415-476-8849
kshinohara@urol.ucsf.edu
Assistant, Mary, at 415 353 9877
juniper - 23 Feb 2006 15:01 GMT
Did you get a "free PSA"?  What is that score?  Did you do a test-run
of antibiotics to see if undiagnosed prostatitis is involved?  Is your
urinary system otherwise normal?  No bladder stones, or anything?

A color doppler ultrasound will help them identify the areas to biopsy.
Few places have color doppler ultrasounds, most use black and white
ultrasound.  Color doppler is less of a stab in the dark. Personally I
think that an MRI with spectroscopy would be helpful, it there has been
no biopsy within 8 weeks, but I don't know if they do it before a
diagnosis.

Chances of cancer with a PSA of 6 is about 25%. In fact, a PSA of 4 has
a 25% chance of cancer.  The 'free PSA' will give you information about
increasing or decreasing that 25% estimate.  It needs to be higher
rather than lower.  The websites below will have information on that.
If you have BPH, that will raise PSA also.  So if your prostate is not
enlarged, that increases your chance of cancer above the 25%.

Doubling time is significant.  I think this jump means a doubling time
of about 12 months.  That is very high.  I definitely would not wait
for 4 months for further testing.  Doing a PSA every few months may be
a "close watch" but it is not taking action.  Check your doubling time
here. http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/10088.cfm  Have as many PSA
results as you can get, going back years, to put in the chart.  But 2
is enough to do it, if that's all you have.  Run those Partin tables as
if you have T1c cancer, and see what you get.  Put in your current PSA.
Then run it again with a PSA of 9 (just guessing for 4 months down the
road) and see how the numbers change. If you get over 10 you put
yourself into a whole other category, high risk, with worse outcomes.

Good luck, don't give up without a diagnosis.  If it is cancer, you
want treatment while the PSA is still low for the best chance of a
cure.

Resources:
http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html
http://www.ustoo.com/Default.asp
http://www.phoenix5.org/

Glossary of terms and abbreviations:
http://www.phoenix5.org/glossary/glossary.html

> Hi
> I just returned from the Dr.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Wayne in Ottawa
RonL - 23 Feb 2006 19:23 GMT
Couple more suggestions/comments in addition to the good ones already
posted.  Did you get your own copy of the biopsy report?  How many cores?
Was there any high grade PIN?  If so, how many cores?  (12 seems to be
fairly standard now.)  Was there any inflammation?  If there were cores with
high grade PIN, or with "focus of atypical small acinar proliferation," you
may want to get the slides read again by one of the "experts."  Or if your
next biopsy will be soon, consider these comments with respect to it.  It's
a good idea to study the path report yourself.  In my experience, at least,
it contains extra detail that the uro may not notice or may not discuss with
you.

Keep reading and asking questions.  You should feel more empowered as you
gain knowledge and the benefit of others' experience.  Good luck,  RonL
Steve Kramer - 24 Feb 2006 01:38 GMT
Hi, Wayne.

You don't give your age or the results of the digital rectal exam (DRE).
I'm assuming 55-70 and negative DRE and negative biopsy.

How many needles were used in the biopsy.  Six was the old standard.  I've
heard as many as 20.  Obviously, 20 shots in the dark, especially when
patterned, is better than six.

And, did he give you a regimen of strong antibiotics to see if that knocked
down the other possibility, infection?

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> Hi
> I just returned from the Dr.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Wayne in Ottawa
Wayne - 24 Feb 2006 03:27 GMT
Just to answer some of the questions and thank you for your comments

I am 66

I had a biopsy 6 months ago with 10 samples I believe. I was told the
results were negative. No qualifications were given.

I have had bph for some time now and am taking 10 mg Xatral.

my psa history is as follows

Aug 98     3.3
Mar 99     3.96
Mar 00     4.73
Sep 00     4.9 ultrasound and biopsy ok
Feb 01     4.3
Nov 01     4.9
May 02     5.3 antibiotics
Nov 02     3.9
May 03     3.66 urinalysis ok
May 04     3 39
May 05     6.09
Aug 05        biopsy  ok
Feb 06     6.5
June 08   next PSA and if up again a biopsy will be scheduled

Wayne
Ottawa
juniper - 24 Feb 2006 05:34 GMT
> I had a biopsy 6 months ago with 10 samples I believe. I was told the
> results were negative. No qualifications were given.
I bet it says a lot more than that.  They'll give you a xerox of the
pathologist's report if you ask.  You could have the biopsy samples
WITH PARAFFIN BLOCKS sent to one of the specialist labs in the US.
It's a couple of hundred dollars for a 2nd opinion.

> I have had bph for some time now and am taking 10 mg Xatral.
How large is your prostate?  There are charts to calculate how much PSA
is due to the size of the prostate.  When we had a biopsy, there were 3
reports.  The one from the ultrasound gave the size.  Just ask for all
your lab reports including biopsy, blood tests.

> my psa history is as follows
Looks like about PSADT 9 years.  Is that good or bad, guys?  My
husband's is 2 years (for what our pathetic sample is worth), and his
cancer is pretty advanced.

You had a response to the antibiotics 4 years ago.  It is notoriously
difficult to clear up prostatitis.  People sometimes have to be on them
for months.  Sometimes try 2 or 3 antibiotics to find one that works.
Why don't they just shoot some antibiotics in there after the snip of
the biopsy, I wonder?  Oh, never mind that comment.  But what if you
had prostatitis, and the antibiotic knocked it down some, but its still
there (now resistant, possibly?)

It just seems like you should be getting more assessment than
PSA/biopsy.  Like a total inspection of your urinary tract.  Kidney's,
bladder, and all the tubes and such.  Stuff going on anywhere down
there could affect the PSA.  Make sure you don't have cysts or
something.  Be nice to know other things have been ruled out.  Get a
free PSA test, it will tell you a lot more about chances of it being
cancer.   It would be terrible to have a low risk PCa hidden by other
things until it had turned into high risk and you had to deal with
that.  No one wants a PCa diagnosis, but trust me, once they get one
they are turning over ever stone trying to find out they found out
while it was low risk.

Are you from Canada?  Maybe someone knows resources there.  I have seen
Canadian PCa websites.  Might join 2 groups, us for our charm, and them
for their local connections.   :o)
Wayne - 25 Feb 2006 03:26 GMT
Thanks, Juniper, for the website address. I put the numbers in but they may
be confused because of the rise and fall and rise again.I get a 173 month
doubling time and if my next psa in 4 months is 7 then the doubling time
goes to 138 months.
Yes, I live in Canada.
Wayne
Steve Kramer - 24 Feb 2006 12:31 GMT
I'd say the good news is that you haven't had PCa all along.  I'm not a
doctor, but I don't think your PSA would undulate between 3.3 and 6.9 for 8
years if  you had cancer.  And, sinse something was definitely wrong for
those 8 years or at least at time during those 8 years, I would imagine your
chances of cancer are a lot less than your chances of BPH or some other
lesser prostate problem.

But, you cannot deny the near doubling from May to present.  And if it
doubles again by the end of this year, you may have a new problem.

But for now, now that I've seen your full history, I think I'd forget about
cancer and think about other issues.

> Just to answer some of the questions and thank you for your comments
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Wayne
> Ottawa
juniper - 25 Feb 2006 16:45 GMT
Wayne, here is a paste from something online.  I'm thinking that free
PSA (also called PSA-2) would be helpful to you, as you unravel what
your information means.  There is a LOT of information on the Internet
about free PSA and what #s mean what.  If your free PSA is high, then
that would be one more thing in your favor to indicate it is not PCa.
laruel

Investigators at the Brady Urological Institute and the Baltimore
Longitudinal Study of Aging discovered that free PSA is predictive of
the aggressiveness of prostate cancers. Using frozen serum samples to
measure PSA and free PSA long before the diagnosis of cancer was made,
it was found that the percentage of free PSA (PSA in the blood not
bound to proteins) distinguished between aggressive (high grade) cancer
and non-aggressive cancer 10 years before the cancers were diagnosed.
The percentage of free PSA in the blood fell as the tumors progressed
toward the date of diagnosis. A percent free PSA of 15 or lower was
predictive of the diagnosis of aggressive prostate cancer 10 years
later.

Dr. Epstein demonstrated in another study that a percent free PSA
higher than 15 was predictive of the presence of small volume disease
in men with PSA detected prostate cancer. And in a study from
Washington University in St. Louis, investigators found that a percent
free PSA lower than 15 was predictive of more extensive, higher grade
disease at the time of radical prostatectomy. So, three separate
studies with very different designs have concluded that percent free
PSA is predictive of the biology of the tumor. Based on these data, we
are less enthusiastic about expectant management in men who have a
percentage of free PSA that is consistently less than 10-15.
http://urology.jhu.edu/prostate/advice1.php
Ron B - 25 Feb 2006 19:06 GMT
I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he
had heard of a 20 needle biopsy.

I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't
think...but 'samples') done at Mayo.

Has anyone heard of this?

My best to Wayne and all,

Ron B.

Chicago
ron - 25 Feb 2006 19:26 GMT
Gary Onik and few others perform "saturation biopsies", around 64
sticks...Ron
I.P. Freely - 25 Feb 2006 20:32 GMT
>I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he
> had heard of a 20 needle biopsy.
>
> I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't
> think...but 'samples') done at Mayo.

At what point does a bx become an RP?  ;-)

I.P.
juniper - 25 Feb 2006 21:25 GMT
> I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't
> think...but 'samples') done at Mayo.
Was this in Minnesota?  We had a biopsy at Mayo in Arizona, and they
took 10 cores but it is only 2 "samples" because they just used two
jars--didn't keep the cores separately marked, so all we know is
"right" and "left".
Wayne - 25 Feb 2006 22:22 GMT
ouch!
Wayne
>I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he
> had heard of a 20 needle biopsy.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Chicago
Steve Kramer - 26 Feb 2006 00:01 GMT
>>I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he
>> had heard of a 20 needle biopsy.
>>
>> I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't
>> think...but 'samples') done at Mayo.

> ouch!
> Wayne

No!  It's more like, "ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!
ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!
You finished?  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!  ouch!
ouch!"


 
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