Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2006
Alternatives to biopsy?
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Wayne - 23 Feb 2006 14:10 GMT Hi I just returned from the Dr. My PSA jumped from 4 to 6 about 6 months ago and now it's up to 6.5. I had a biopsy 6 months ago but the results were negative. He says that if it's up again in 4 months then I'll need another biopsy. He says my prostate seems to be 'doing something' and we must keep a close watch. Since the biopsy consists of several 'pokes in the dark' hoping to hit something which may be small and just starting, I wonder if there is anything more accurate?
Also, does anyone have a scale which relates the psa score to the likelihood of cancer?
Wayne in Ottawa
ron - 23 Feb 2006 14:40 GMT Wayne...Color doppler ultrasound by Bahn or Lee or MRI by Shinohara. These imaging techniques allow the docs to see more of the gland and in much higher resolution. These docs are also the best at what they do. They can then perform "targeted biopsies" if they see something. You can google these terms with "proste cancer" to learn more about them...Ron
Duke K. Bahn MD Medical Director, Department of Radiology Prostate Institute of America Community Memorial Hospital of San Buenaventura 168 N. Brent Street, Suite 402 Ventura, CA 93003 888-234-0004 805-585-3082 Fax: 805-641-3965 dkbahn@cmhhospital.org
Fred Lee, MD Crittenton Hospital 1135 W University Dr, #420 Rochester, MI 48307 (248)650-4699
Katsuto Shinohara MD 1600 Divisadero Street, 3rd floor UCSF San Francisco, CA 94115 Tel:415-476-1611 Fax:415-476-8849 kshinohara@urol.ucsf.edu Assistant, Mary, at 415 353 9877
juniper - 23 Feb 2006 15:01 GMT Did you get a "free PSA"? What is that score? Did you do a test-run of antibiotics to see if undiagnosed prostatitis is involved? Is your urinary system otherwise normal? No bladder stones, or anything?
A color doppler ultrasound will help them identify the areas to biopsy. Few places have color doppler ultrasounds, most use black and white ultrasound. Color doppler is less of a stab in the dark. Personally I think that an MRI with spectroscopy would be helpful, it there has been no biopsy within 8 weeks, but I don't know if they do it before a diagnosis.
Chances of cancer with a PSA of 6 is about 25%. In fact, a PSA of 4 has a 25% chance of cancer. The 'free PSA' will give you information about increasing or decreasing that 25% estimate. It needs to be higher rather than lower. The websites below will have information on that. If you have BPH, that will raise PSA also. So if your prostate is not enlarged, that increases your chance of cancer above the 25%.
Doubling time is significant. I think this jump means a doubling time of about 12 months. That is very high. I definitely would not wait for 4 months for further testing. Doing a PSA every few months may be a "close watch" but it is not taking action. Check your doubling time here. http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/10088.cfm Have as many PSA results as you can get, going back years, to put in the chart. But 2 is enough to do it, if that's all you have. Run those Partin tables as if you have T1c cancer, and see what you get. Put in your current PSA. Then run it again with a PSA of 9 (just guessing for 4 months down the road) and see how the numbers change. If you get over 10 you put yourself into a whole other category, high risk, with worse outcomes.
Good luck, don't give up without a diagnosis. If it is cancer, you want treatment while the PSA is still low for the best chance of a cure.
Resources: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html http://www.ustoo.com/Default.asp http://www.phoenix5.org/
Glossary of terms and abbreviations: http://www.phoenix5.org/glossary/glossary.html
> Hi > I just returned from the Dr. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Wayne in Ottawa RonL - 23 Feb 2006 19:23 GMT Couple more suggestions/comments in addition to the good ones already posted. Did you get your own copy of the biopsy report? How many cores? Was there any high grade PIN? If so, how many cores? (12 seems to be fairly standard now.) Was there any inflammation? If there were cores with high grade PIN, or with "focus of atypical small acinar proliferation," you may want to get the slides read again by one of the "experts." Or if your next biopsy will be soon, consider these comments with respect to it. It's a good idea to study the path report yourself. In my experience, at least, it contains extra detail that the uro may not notice or may not discuss with you.
Keep reading and asking questions. You should feel more empowered as you gain knowledge and the benefit of others' experience. Good luck, RonL
Steve Kramer - 24 Feb 2006 01:38 GMT Hi, Wayne.
You don't give your age or the results of the digital rectal exam (DRE). I'm assuming 55-70 and negative DRE and negative biopsy.
How many needles were used in the biopsy. Six was the old standard. I've heard as many as 20. Obviously, 20 shots in the dark, especially when patterned, is better than six.
And, did he give you a regimen of strong antibiotics to see if that knocked down the other possibility, infection?
 Signature PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46 Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA .1 .1 .1 .27 .37 .75 EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47 PSA .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum
> Hi > I just returned from the Dr. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Wayne in Ottawa Wayne - 24 Feb 2006 03:27 GMT Just to answer some of the questions and thank you for your comments
I am 66
I had a biopsy 6 months ago with 10 samples I believe. I was told the results were negative. No qualifications were given.
I have had bph for some time now and am taking 10 mg Xatral.
my psa history is as follows
Aug 98 3.3 Mar 99 3.96 Mar 00 4.73 Sep 00 4.9 ultrasound and biopsy ok Feb 01 4.3 Nov 01 4.9 May 02 5.3 antibiotics Nov 02 3.9 May 03 3.66 urinalysis ok May 04 3 39 May 05 6.09 Aug 05 biopsy ok Feb 06 6.5 June 08 next PSA and if up again a biopsy will be scheduled
Wayne Ottawa
juniper - 24 Feb 2006 05:34 GMT > I had a biopsy 6 months ago with 10 samples I believe. I was told the > results were negative. No qualifications were given. I bet it says a lot more than that. They'll give you a xerox of the pathologist's report if you ask. You could have the biopsy samples WITH PARAFFIN BLOCKS sent to one of the specialist labs in the US. It's a couple of hundred dollars for a 2nd opinion.
> I have had bph for some time now and am taking 10 mg Xatral. How large is your prostate? There are charts to calculate how much PSA is due to the size of the prostate. When we had a biopsy, there were 3 reports. The one from the ultrasound gave the size. Just ask for all your lab reports including biopsy, blood tests.
> my psa history is as follows Looks like about PSADT 9 years. Is that good or bad, guys? My husband's is 2 years (for what our pathetic sample is worth), and his cancer is pretty advanced.
You had a response to the antibiotics 4 years ago. It is notoriously difficult to clear up prostatitis. People sometimes have to be on them for months. Sometimes try 2 or 3 antibiotics to find one that works. Why don't they just shoot some antibiotics in there after the snip of the biopsy, I wonder? Oh, never mind that comment. But what if you had prostatitis, and the antibiotic knocked it down some, but its still there (now resistant, possibly?)
It just seems like you should be getting more assessment than PSA/biopsy. Like a total inspection of your urinary tract. Kidney's, bladder, and all the tubes and such. Stuff going on anywhere down there could affect the PSA. Make sure you don't have cysts or something. Be nice to know other things have been ruled out. Get a free PSA test, it will tell you a lot more about chances of it being cancer. It would be terrible to have a low risk PCa hidden by other things until it had turned into high risk and you had to deal with that. No one wants a PCa diagnosis, but trust me, once they get one they are turning over ever stone trying to find out they found out while it was low risk.
Are you from Canada? Maybe someone knows resources there. I have seen Canadian PCa websites. Might join 2 groups, us for our charm, and them for their local connections. :o)
Wayne - 25 Feb 2006 03:26 GMT Thanks, Juniper, for the website address. I put the numbers in but they may be confused because of the rise and fall and rise again.I get a 173 month doubling time and if my next psa in 4 months is 7 then the doubling time goes to 138 months. Yes, I live in Canada. Wayne
Steve Kramer - 24 Feb 2006 12:31 GMT I'd say the good news is that you haven't had PCa all along. I'm not a doctor, but I don't think your PSA would undulate between 3.3 and 6.9 for 8 years if you had cancer. And, sinse something was definitely wrong for those 8 years or at least at time during those 8 years, I would imagine your chances of cancer are a lot less than your chances of BPH or some other lesser prostate problem.
But, you cannot deny the near doubling from May to present. And if it doubles again by the end of this year, you may have a new problem.
But for now, now that I've seen your full history, I think I'd forget about cancer and think about other issues.
> Just to answer some of the questions and thank you for your comments > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Wayne > Ottawa juniper - 25 Feb 2006 16:45 GMT Wayne, here is a paste from something online. I'm thinking that free PSA (also called PSA-2) would be helpful to you, as you unravel what your information means. There is a LOT of information on the Internet about free PSA and what #s mean what. If your free PSA is high, then that would be one more thing in your favor to indicate it is not PCa. laruel
Investigators at the Brady Urological Institute and the Baltimore Longitudinal Study of Aging discovered that free PSA is predictive of the aggressiveness of prostate cancers. Using frozen serum samples to measure PSA and free PSA long before the diagnosis of cancer was made, it was found that the percentage of free PSA (PSA in the blood not bound to proteins) distinguished between aggressive (high grade) cancer and non-aggressive cancer 10 years before the cancers were diagnosed. The percentage of free PSA in the blood fell as the tumors progressed toward the date of diagnosis. A percent free PSA of 15 or lower was predictive of the diagnosis of aggressive prostate cancer 10 years later.
Dr. Epstein demonstrated in another study that a percent free PSA higher than 15 was predictive of the presence of small volume disease in men with PSA detected prostate cancer. And in a study from Washington University in St. Louis, investigators found that a percent free PSA lower than 15 was predictive of more extensive, higher grade disease at the time of radical prostatectomy. So, three separate studies with very different designs have concluded that percent free PSA is predictive of the biology of the tumor. Based on these data, we are less enthusiastic about expectant management in men who have a percentage of free PSA that is consistently less than 10-15. http://urology.jhu.edu/prostate/advice1.php
Ron B - 25 Feb 2006 19:06 GMT I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he had heard of a 20 needle biopsy.
I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't think...but 'samples') done at Mayo.
Has anyone heard of this?
My best to Wayne and all,
Ron B.
Chicago
ron - 25 Feb 2006 19:26 GMT Gary Onik and few others perform "saturation biopsies", around 64 sticks...Ron
I.P. Freely - 25 Feb 2006 20:32 GMT >I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he > had heard of a 20 needle biopsy. > > I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't > think...but 'samples') done at Mayo. At what point does a bx become an RP? ;-)
I.P.
juniper - 25 Feb 2006 21:25 GMT > I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't > think...but 'samples') done at Mayo. Was this in Minnesota? We had a biopsy at Mayo in Arizona, and they took 10 cores but it is only 2 "samples" because they just used two jars--didn't keep the cores separately marked, so all we know is "right" and "left".
Wayne - 25 Feb 2006 22:22 GMT ouch! Wayne
>I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he > had heard of a 20 needle biopsy. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Chicago Steve Kramer - 26 Feb 2006 00:01 GMT >>I don't want to distract from Wayne...but Steve Kramer mentioned that he >> had heard of a 20 needle biopsy. >> >> I have recently heard of a THIRTY sample biopsy (not needles I don't >> think...but 'samples') done at Mayo.
> ouch! > Wayne No! It's more like, "ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! You finished? ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch! ouch!"
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