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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2006

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Which is first ??

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From Bob - 23 Feb 2006 07:36 GMT
Have T1c, with a Gleason of 7, three cores are involved 2 on right lobe,
1 on left lobe., five percent of the three cores have adenocarcinoma.
This appears to put me between early discovery and intermediate, because
of the aggressive 4 + 3 = 7 gleason.
Have been on proscar for past four years fof bph, had also taken hytrin
for years. The prostate is estimated at 32 grams. Last psa was 2.44
(which needs to be doubled, because of the proscar). Both the Urologist
and Medical oncologist have advised EBRT and seeds. I think i want the
IMRT and seeds. Does it make a difference which i do first ??
PS ~ Just finished reading Michael Dattoli book "Surviving prostate
cancer without surgery",very well written with a lot of clear detailed
information, in easy to understand stlyle. However as expected biased
toward radiation therapy.
c palmer - 23 Feb 2006 09:03 GMT
From: IATROGENIC@webtv.net (From Bob)

Have T1c, with a Gleason of 7, three cores are involved 2 on right lobe,
1 on left lobe., five percent of the three cores have adenocarcinoma.
This appears to put me between early discovery and intermediate, because
of the aggressive 4 + 3 = 7 gleason.
Have been on proscar for past four years fof bph, had also taken hytrin
for years. The prostate is estimated at 32 grams. Last psa was 2.44
(which needs to be doubled, because of the proscar). Both the Urologist
and Medical oncologist have advised EBRT and seeds. I think i want the
IMRT and seeds. Does it make a difference which i do first ?? PS ~ Just
finished reading Michael Dattoli book "Surviving prostate cancer without
surgery",very well written with a lot of clear detailed information, in
easy to understand stlyle. However as expected biased toward radiation
therapy.
======

hi bob - the standard rule of treatment for early detection of pca is
surgery first, radiation second and hormone third.

the logic behind this is because, if you were to have a recurrence of
prostate cancer after surgery, then, you would have a second chance for
a cure through radiation treatment.

if you opt for radiation and were to have a recurrence, then surgery is
not looked at normally as an option.

if both surgery and radiation treatments fail, then hormone therapy is
the treatment of choice, but it is not a cure.

hope that explains what you are asking.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
From Bob - 23 Feb 2006 11:45 GMT
When surgery is NOT a consideration, is EBRT, or Seed implants done
first, or does it not make a difference ???
c palmer - 23 Feb 2006 12:46 GMT
From: IATROGENIC@webtv.net (From Bob)

When surgery is NOT a consideration, is EBRT, or Seed implants done
first, or does it not make a difference ???

======
hi bob - simply put, radiation is radiation.  the body responds to the
same way.  it's the manner in which it is applied.   and it is adds to
the damage each time, so you are normally not radiated but once -
regardless of treatment.

here's a simple test.  take your hand and bend it backwards.  see the
skin?  now, take your thumb and finger and pinch it firmly and hold it
for a couple of seconds.  now, let go.  how long did it take for you
skin to straighten up.  that radiation damage from the sun.   now, do
the exact same thing on an area of the body where it has not been
exposed to sun light and see the difference.

some of the radiation is applied outside the body, such as EBRT.  some
of the radiation is applied from inside the body such as seeds.

bottom line - the goal is the kill the prostate cancer.

but you will have the possibility of side effects.  can be impotence,
incontinence, or colon problems.

as far as the problems of side effects after treatment or basically the
same.  it's just that surgery happens up front and gets better with time
and radiation takes it slowly over time as the body reacts to the
radiation.

i don't know why surgery is not an option, so i won't go there.

but i will say this.  i was originally going to have seeds done.  but
there was two points that the doctor said that bothered me.

one - cancer grows on the outside lobes of the prostate.  if you put the
seeds into the prostate, you will kill any cancer in the prostate, but
what about the cancer on near the outside of the prostate?  did you kill
it?

two - radiation is a concern in the fact that too much radiation can
cause cancer, such as too many chest x-rays.   but what about radiation
of the prostate.  if you were able to kill all the bad cancer cells,
what about the good cancers the were left?  who's to say that maybe
years later, they wouldn't go rouge and go cancerous.

that last point bothered me........ and i didn't have an answer....

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc
Steve Kramer - 24 Feb 2006 02:05 GMT
i don't know why surgery is not an option, so i won't go there.

If I recall correctly, Bob's doctor doesn't want him getting surgery for
medical reasons.
Greg Louis - 23 Feb 2006 13:16 GMT
> Both the Urologist and
> Medical oncologist have advised EBRT and seeds. I think i want the IMRT
> and seeds. Does it make a difference which i do first ??

That sounds to me like a question for your radiation oncologist.  There is
a lot of wisdom and experience in this group but I doubt we can give you
authoritative answers to questions that subtle.

Good luck...............
Signature

Greg Louis
At age 58, PSA 5.4 rising triggered biopsy 2004-06-22, Gleason 3+3, T1c,
prostate volume 27 cc.  Monotherapy, 55 I-125 seeds implanted 2004-11-16.

juniper - 23 Feb 2006 14:33 GMT
There is no "first".  You can only get radiation once.
Maybe there is no equipment/ *** experienced radiologists *** / in your
area for IMRT?

>From Bob wrote:
> Have T1c, with a Gleason of 7, three cores are involved 2 on right lobe,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> information, in easy to understand stlyle. However as expected biased
> toward radiation therapy.
ron - 23 Feb 2006 14:34 GMT
Bob...Ditto Greg.  RCOG does seeds before RT, a lot of other docs do it
the other way around.  They each have their reasons for their specific
ordering.  If they haven't adopted a uniform methodology, then my guess
is there is no generally accepted reasoning as to why one way is better
than the other...Ron
Steve Kramer - 24 Feb 2006 02:02 GMT
Never heard of the book or author.  However, having made up your mind
against surgery, I would read Strumm's book.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05,
2/06
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> Have T1c, with a Gleason of 7, three cores are involved 2 on right lobe,
> 1 on left lobe., five percent of the three cores have adenocarcinoma.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> information, in easy to understand stlyle. However as expected biased
> toward radiation therapy.
 
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