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Medical Forum / Diseases and Disorders / Prostate Cancer / February 2006

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Need Advise-Cryosurgery

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Bob Caron - 15 Feb 2006 20:35 GMT
I have recurring PC after XBRT just completed bone scan,CT scan, and
ProstaScint. No evidence of mets. Salvage surgery not an option due to
heart problems. seems like only choice is cryo an HT.
Looking for cryo person in mid-atlantic area. any advise or input would
be greatly appreciated.

Bob
Steve Jordan - 15 Feb 2006 20:58 GMT
> I have recurring PC after XBRT just completed bone scan,CT scan, and
> ProstaScint. No evidence of mets. Salvage surgery not an option due to
> heart problems. seems like only choice is cryo an HT.
> Looking for cryo person in mid-atlantic area. any advise or input would
> be greatly appreciated.
>  
I'm in Aridzona (71° right now, hee hee) so can't help re: a cryosurgery
practitioner.

However: I recommend a careful study of the stage of the PCa.
Cryotherapy is a local tx, and if the PCa is systemic or outside the
gland, then it will not be curative nor perhaps even palliative.

Also, the gland may be so transformed by the rad therapy that
cryotherapy might be impractical.

Lastly, if the decision is made to proceed, I recommend selection of a
very well-experienced surgeon. I had cryo in 2003, totally botched by an
inexperienced uro. I've learned my lesson.

Regards,

Steve J
Clarence Crow - 15 Feb 2006 21:07 GMT
>I have recurring PC after XBRT just completed bone scan,CT scan, and
>ProstaScint. No evidence of mets. Salvage surgery not an option due to
>heart problems. seems like only choice is cryo an HT.
>Looking for cryo person in mid-atlantic area. any advise or input would
>be greatly appreciated.

When Steve Jordan sees this he'll need a traquiliser dart in the
butt!!

Watch for his reply :)

-- Reader to complete...
-- Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake:

-- Regards

-- CC
ron - 15 Feb 2006 21:11 GMT
> I have recurring PC after XBRT just completed bone scan,CT scan, and
> ProstaScint. No evidence of mets. Salvage surgery not an option due to
> heart problems. seems like only choice is cryo an HT.
> Looking for cryo person in mid-atlantic area. any advise or input would
> be greatly appreciated.

Hi Bob...Dr. Gary Onik is one of the best when it comes to cryo.  He's
down in Orlando, not too far afield from the mid-atlantic area.  Take a
look at the following website, it has contact info, general info, even
a brief section on treating recurrent PCa following RT.

http://www.hopeforprostatecancer.com/index.html

One more thing, I'm not a big fan of HIFU (high-intensity focused
ultrasound) for primary treatment, but it has also been used to treat
recurrent PCa.  It is not approved by the FDA so you have to go outside
the US and pay for treatment on your own, but it is easily tolerated
and non-invasive.  There have been some published studies on using it
to treat recurrent PCa and they can be found in a PubMed search.  Go to

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed

and search "hifu, recurrent prostate cancer"...best wishes and good
health, Ron
Alan Meyer - 15 Feb 2006 23:56 GMT
> ...
> One more thing, I'm not a big fan of HIFU (high-intensity focused
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and search "hifu, recurrent prostate cancer"...best wishes and good
> health, Ron

There is a clinical trial of HIFU for recurrent prostate cancer after
radiation.  See: http://www.ushifu.com/trials.asp.  It looks like it's
just getting started and may not be accepting patients yet.

The phone number to call for info is: 1-888-874-4384.

   Alan
Steve Kramer - 18 Feb 2006 12:53 GMT
First, Bob, I'd like to know where you are getting your information.  I am
not a doctor, but most of  your post appears to me to be based on a profound
lack of knowledge of the disease that is going to kill you if you don't
learn how to kill the son of a bitch.

If you had external beam radiation treatment (EBRT) as your initial
treatment for prostate cancer, the process cooked your prostate.  Not much
of it is left anymore.  So, there is no salvage surgery option, or at least
none that most sane surgeons would contemplate.

Cryo would, in my mind, be more ridiculous.  I dont' know much about Cryo
(other than I never met a man for whom it worked).  Assuming that what
really gets frozen in cryo is the 90% water in the prostate tissue, there is
nothing left to freeze in a radiated prostate.  And if there were, so what?
You already treated the prostate.  Obviously, the cancer is elsewhere.

No, Bob.  Your next step, should you decided to take it, is the same as mine
was 2½ years ago;  Androgen Deprivation Therapy (ADT), sometimes known as
Hormone Treatment (HT).

But... actually two "buts".

But, I am not a doctor.

But, you need to research your disease and your circumstances.  Nothing (not
even your doctor) is a substitute for that.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

>I have recurring PC after XBRT just completed bone scan,CT scan, and
>ProstaScint. No evidence of mets. Salvage surgery not an option due to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Bob
Bob Caron - 18 Feb 2006 14:11 GMT
Steve:

Cryo option was given by a second opinion "Johns Hopkins" and a third
opinion by Dr.N.Dawson, at U.Maryland whom I have chosen. You should
check out Dr. Gary Ornik in Florida on his stats using cryo for
recurring PC. Also check out Dr. Jeffrey Cohen at Allegheny General in
Pittsburgh,he and a Dr. Miller have done over 1100 cryo's on
prostates,and they claim a 25% failure rate for recurring PC. Plus, they
state that cryo can be done over and over.
So,my question to myself, "why not try it out" it's far better than all
the SE of HT.!
I have not met a man who had cryo either. but why would my second and
third opinion sources mention cryo?
All the research I have done on recurring PC is that HT is the last
resort. Did you research cryo or Salvage prior to your decision on HT.

Bob

> First, Bob, I'd like to know where you are getting your information.
> I am not a doctor, but most of  your post appears to me to be based on
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>
>> Bob
Steve Kramer - 18 Feb 2006 21:18 GMT
Well, you have certainly done more research than I first believed.  I still
don't know how cryo can have an effect on cancer cells that have survived
radiation, but if your docs say it is so, then I am in mo position to argue.

Signature

PSA 16 10/17/2000 @ 46
Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c
RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins
PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75
EBRT 05-07/2002 @ 47
PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32
Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05
PSA  .07 .05 .06 .05 .08
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

> Steve:
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>>>
>>> Bob
Alan Meyer - 19 Feb 2006 19:57 GMT
...
> All the research I have done on recurring PC is that HT is the last resort. Did you
> research cryo or Salvage prior to your decision on HT.
...

I was first diagnosed 2.5 years ago.  At that time, cryo was pretty new
and the one doctor who did mention it to me was leery of it.

But 2.5 years is a significant amount of time for techniques to be
developed and refined and for some results to be available.  So your
information may be much more current, and your options wider, than
those of us treated a while ago.

Unless you are elderly, I think you are right to try for a curative treatment
rather than HT.  Cryo (or HIFU) may do it for you.  Do NOT assume
however that there are no side effects.  From what I have read, the
majority of men are impotent after cryo and there may also be urinary
effects.

I searched Pubmed for (cryosurgery "prostate cancer" side effects) and
found that.  See for example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstra
ct&list_uids=14569465&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum


   Alan
 
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